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View Full Version : Strasburg to Most Likely need TJ surgery per ESPN....



Tony Cloninger
08-27-2010, 11:42 AM
Just heard it on ESPN first take.

They babied that guy and it still did not make a difference. Nothing really does. Some pitchers can throw tons of innings or pitches and be okay....others are just paper mache.

cumberlandreds
08-27-2010, 11:45 AM
I wonder where they are getting that. Nothing in the media here in DC. That would be headline making news too in this area.

reds1869
08-27-2010, 11:46 AM
That would be devastating for the Nationals. They are on the hook for a whole boatload of cash and Strasburg is their number one ticket seller.

Tornon
08-27-2010, 11:47 AM
The Nationals message board at mlb.com seems to be reporting the same thing

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-washington&tid=33578

Can't say I'm too surprised, but it is unfortunate

Reds Fanatic
08-27-2010, 11:47 AM
He had an MRI and he has a significant tear in his ulnar collateral ligament. According to that link out 12 to 18 months.

OesterPoster
08-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Getting a second opinion before surgery:

SI_JonHeyman

RT @BrentSGambill Nationals will be getting second opinion before moving forward with Tommy John surgery. 6 minutes ago via web

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 11:49 AM
2013 before he will be back in good shape if you ask me...and thats if all goes well.

Tony Cloninger
08-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Sorry for no links......I figured everyone here is computer savvy enough to go to the site? :D

Seriously....I have no clue how to post a link....so there. ;)

Curse of Jim Riggleman.

OesterPoster
08-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Isn't Strasburg one of the guys with the "inverted W" or such?

membengal
08-27-2010, 11:50 AM
TJ surgery is not the end of the world. No reason he can't come back in 2013 and be good again.

Tornon
08-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Isn't Strasburg one of the guys with the "inverted W" or such?

I believe so, I have heard nonstop comparisons to Mark Prior all year

OesterPoster
08-27-2010, 11:51 AM
2013? I thought the recovery time was about 12 to 18 months. He should be ready to go in some capacity by the start of the 2012 season.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 11:51 AM
2013? I thought the recovery time was about 12 to 18 months. He should be ready to go in some capacity by the start of the 2012 season.

First year back typically is not at 100 percent.

Tornon
08-27-2010, 11:51 AM
And pitchers can come back from TJ surgery throwing harder than before.. that's kind of a scary thought

medford
08-27-2010, 11:52 AM
That would be devastating for the Nationals. They are on the hook for a whole boatload of cash and Strasburg is their number one ticket seller.

Not to mention that since he's on the DL he'll be spending the next 2 years on the major league roster, getting major league service time while not pitching and putting him closer to his arbitration years. Of course if he doesn't come back dominant, then his 1st couple of seasons of arbitration won't be worth much, but it will be 2 seasons they won't get out of him in the time that the Nats control him.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 11:53 AM
Not to mention that since he's on the DL he'll be spending the next 2 years on the major league roster, getting major league service time while not pitching and putting him closer to his arbitration years. Of course if he doesn't come back dominant, then his 1st couple of seasons of arbitration won't be worth much, but it will be 2 seasons they won't get out of him in the time that the Nats control him.

The Nats should hope he gets busted for PEDs and lands a nice suspension...that helps matters. :thumbup:

Phhhl
08-27-2010, 11:56 AM
Devastating. I truly hate to hear this as a baseball fan. How stupid does Rob Dibble look now?

reds1869
08-27-2010, 11:58 AM
Devastating. I truly hate to hear this as a baseball fan. How stupid does Rob Dibble look now?

Well, in fairness to Mr. Dibble, he didn't need much help in that department. Great pitcher does not equal great analyst.

membengal
08-27-2010, 12:01 PM
2013? I thought the recovery time was about 12 to 18 months. He should be ready to go in some capacity by the start of the 2012 season.

Yeah, I was referring to needing a season after surgery to figure out command. That's typical, anyway. It's what EV is dealing with now.

bucksfan2
08-27-2010, 12:04 PM
TJ surgery is not the end of the world. No reason he can't come back in 2013 and be good again.

Going though TJ and its rehab your arm actually comes back stronger than before. I don't really think this is such a devastating thing for Strasburg. In all likelihood he will come back in 2012 raring and ready to go.

The Nats on the other hand are a completely different story. They are stuck paying him while he is earning service time. They looked to have a nice core developing but it gets pushed back at least another season. I wonder if they now wish they would have traded Dunn at the deadline. 2011 is most likely going to look like 2008-2009-2010.

cumberlandreds
08-27-2010, 12:10 PM
http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=398&sid=2037552

Always Red
08-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Devastating. I truly hate to hear this as a baseball fan. How stupid does Rob Dibble look now?

Dibble should be fired. He questioned Straburg's guts, when he was hurt. No announcer should be able to get away with that, and I'd bet the Nat's players will have issue with Dibble as well over this.

osuceltic
08-27-2010, 12:13 PM
I blame Dusty.

westofyou
08-27-2010, 12:16 PM
Pitching is an unnatural act that invites injury.

It's the linchpin of the game

Always Red
08-27-2010, 12:16 PM
I blame Dusty.

master shredder of arms. :rolleyes:

I've been reading for a year that Strasburg's "W" resembles Prior. Gosh, you mean maybe Dusty wasn't to blame?? :eek:

I am in agreement with what was said above- some arms, no matter how golden, cannot withstand the stress and strain and just are not meant to pitch.

Danny Serafini
08-27-2010, 12:21 PM
At the risk of sounding silly, what exactly is a "W"?

Always Red
08-27-2010, 12:24 PM
At the risk of sounding silly, what exactly is a "W"?

inverted W:

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html

cumberlandreds
08-27-2010, 12:26 PM
Dibble should be fired. He questioned Straburg's guts, when he was hurt. No announcer should be able to get away with that, and I'd bet the Nat's players will have issue with Dibble as well over this.

Dibble was given a "vacation" for those comments. They are saying he took off on his own but I don't believe it. I agree with you he should be fired. He said too many stupid things this entire season.

bucksfan2
08-27-2010, 12:30 PM
Dibble should be fired. He questioned Straburg's guts, when he was hurt. No announcer should be able to get away with that, and I'd bet the Nat's players will have issue with Dibble as well over this.

I don't get all this outrage. Dibble comes from a different era than Strasburg. What would have happened if a guy like Bob Gibson says he has to learn to pitch through pain?

Dibble is who he is. There is nothing that is going to change the way he is on the radio. He may be a loose cannon but maybe he has a point. Maybe he feels a $20M bonus boy in Strasburg should be a little tougher. Was he wrong in this instance, it appears to be that way. Should he be fired, no.

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2010, 12:31 PM
I hate to hear that. What a major blow to the Nationals. Here's to hoping he makes a full recovery.

Tornon
08-27-2010, 12:32 PM
Why do we call it an Inverted W & not an M?

Heath
08-27-2010, 12:33 PM
Conspiracy theorists and Yankee fans claim that Strausburg tore his ligament on purpose so he couldn't have to pitch for the Nationals anymore.

IIRC, this guy was barely on the radar until a couple of years ago. I hope he recovers fully.

Redsfan320
08-27-2010, 12:41 PM
These are some very interesting articles on pitching mechanics, and how many of them destroy the arm. They appear to be from '07 or so:

Death to the Inverted W (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html)

Death to the Inverted V (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedV.html)

Death to the Inverted L (http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedL.html)

You can see more near the top of the pages.

320

flyer85
08-27-2010, 12:48 PM
the crux of the issue with pitchers is that they are always just one toss away from being gone.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 12:48 PM
It is well documented that there is a "pitch count" police on the forum here.

Where is the "pitching mechanics" police?

Not adjusting bad technique is way worse than letting a guy throw 15 "too many" pitches in a game if you ask me, yet we all know which problem gets all the press in here.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2010, 12:51 PM
Where is the "pitching mechanics" police?

Not adjusting bad technique is way worse than letting a guy throw 15 "too many" pitches in a game if you ask me, yet we all know which problem gets all the press in here.

You can't really change the way a guy throws. He's done it too often for too long.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 12:54 PM
You can't really change the way a guy throws. He's done it too often for too long.

Agree to an extent. Some guys would be adaptable, some not. I'd give it everything I got to fix some guys though.

Always Red
08-27-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't get all this outrage. Dibble comes from a different era than Strasburg. What would have happened if a guy like Bob Gibson says he has to learn to pitch through pain?

Dibble is who he is. There is nothing that is going to change the way he is on the radio. He may be a loose cannon but maybe he has a point. Maybe he feels a $20M bonus boy in Strasburg should be a little tougher. Was he wrong in this instance, it appears to be that way. Should he be fired, no.

I'm not outraged at all. I think Dibble is an idiot who should be fired. Dibble has always been an ass.

He ridiculed the $20 million dollar bonus boy for not being tough enough, and he was hurt- hurt enough to need surgery and be out for a year or so.

If I'm a National player, I've got a problem with Rob Dibble, since I have the back of my teammates.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2010, 12:58 PM
I'd give it everything I got to fix some guys though.

If you change the mechanics, you change the pitcher. Strasburg doesn't have the same stuff without the same mechanics.

UKFlounder
08-27-2010, 12:59 PM
As much as I hate when draft picks ask for such huge bonuses even though they have never proven anything, and I generally side with the team trying not to pay so much (in any sport), this is exactly why these young men and their agents make such requests. I know many pitchers come back strong from TJ surgery, but he may never be the same and may never have the chance to get a big free agency contract. Who knows how good he may or may not be if he has this surgery.

Tornon
08-27-2010, 12:59 PM
If you change the mechanics, you change the pitcher. Strasburg doesn't have the same stuff without the same mechanics.

Some Strasburg may be better than no Strasburg..

BRM
08-27-2010, 01:00 PM
Some Strasburg may be better than no Strasburg..

Maybe. But a lesser version wouldn't be worth nearly as much money.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2010, 01:01 PM
Some Strasburg may be better than no Strasburg..

So, when he comes back from TJ, do you try to change his mechanics?

No chance, in my book.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 01:03 PM
So, when he comes back from TJ, do you try to change his mechanics?

No chance, in my book.

Try means you make an attempt. So you would not spend a moment with him to see what he can do with an adjustment or two?

Tornon
08-27-2010, 01:03 PM
So, when he comes back from TJ, do you try to change his mechanics?

No chance, in my book.

I doubt they will, I'm just considering that it may be in their best interest because whenever he is healthy he may just be a ticking time bomb

Always Red
08-27-2010, 01:04 PM
Maybe. But a lesser version wouldn't be worth nearly as much money.

And a better version was a pipe dream because he had never done it before.

I'd love to see the union and owners come up with an agreement on paying draft choices by slot- one that is automatic, not "suggested".

I don't follow the NBA, but I think they do it that way.

Everyone (except the agents and draftees themselves) would agree that the best pay should go to those who produce.

Paying for promise is risky, risky business.

Cedric
08-27-2010, 01:06 PM
I just read where 10 pitchers from the All star game this year had TJ surgery at least once. And the same article said that each pitcher reworked their mechanics just enough to decrease the load on their shoulder.

I think he will be fine.

BRM
08-27-2010, 01:07 PM
And a better version was a pipe dream because he had never done it before.

I'd love to see the union and owners come up with an agreement on paying draft choices by slot- one that is automatic, not "suggested".

I don't follow the NBA, but I think they do it that way.

Everyone (except the agents and draftees themselves) would agree that the best pay should go to those who produce.

Paying for promise is risky, risky business.

I agree with you.

Griffey012
08-27-2010, 01:08 PM
If you fast forward in this clip to 36 seconds you can see the inverted W, followed by a tremendous amount of torque on the elbow as he begins to bring the ball through.

YouTube - Steve Strasburg Revealed - What Does He Do to Make Him Special (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPc50UkTo3I)

flyer85
08-27-2010, 01:12 PM
interesting ... his elbow is a little high compared to his shoulder, although not as bad as Prior. After going throught the links it is pretty clear that the durable power pitchers of the era keep their pitching elbow below shoulder height.

Griffey012
08-27-2010, 01:19 PM
interesting ... his elbow is a little high compared to his shoulder, although not as bad as Prior. After going throught the links it is pretty clear that the durable power pitchers of the era keep their pitching elbow below shoulder height.

But it was all Dusty's fault :D

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 01:19 PM
I have to ask...how are Chapman's mechanics?

BoydsOfSummer
08-27-2010, 01:20 PM
Tough break. The guy brings some excitement to the game.

redsmetz
08-27-2010, 01:27 PM
Who's the pitcher from the 70's or 80's who is now a bit of a mechanics guru? Whoever it was has been preaching getting pitchers to throw with better mechanics for a few years now.

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 01:29 PM
Who's the pitcher from the 70's or 80's who is now a bit of a mechanics guru? Whoever it was has been preaching getting pitchers to throw with better mechanics for a few years now.

Mike Marshall

...oh wait, Dr. Mike Marshall, PhD.

TheNext44
08-27-2010, 01:32 PM
So, when he comes back from TJ, do you try to change his mechanics?

No chance, in my book.

The Reds changed both Bray's and Volquez's mechanics when they were rehabbing. I think it's very common for teams to change pitchers mechanics when they are rehabbing from TJ surgery. It's a perfect time to do it, since they really have to learn how to pitch again from step one.

Always Red
08-27-2010, 01:34 PM
Who's the pitcher from the 70's or 80's who is now a bit of a mechanics guru? Whoever it was has been preaching getting pitchers to throw with better mechanics for a few years now.


Mike Marshall

...oh wait, Dr. Mike Marshall, PhD.

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/

Those are some really weird looking deliveries in those videos, but Marshall is a very smart guy, nearly pitched his arm off, and maybe he's onto something. Oh, and he still hates Pete Rose.

Marshall is a guru, but I don't think any of his followers have made it in MLB.

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2010, 01:41 PM
Marshall is a guru, but I don't think any of his followers have made it in MLB.

Marshall's theory is interesting, but it's so against the grain of how pitching is taught from youth baseball up that it'll be difficult for him to ever gain traction.

Everybody with great pitching talent learns to pitch conventionally -- leaving few, if any, truly talented pitchers using Marshall's method. Thus, Marshall's theories are discredited since no one he teaches accomplishes anything.

cumberlandreds
08-27-2010, 02:05 PM
Here is a WIKI article about TJ surgery. In it, it states that studies have been done which determined that pitch counts are the major contributing factor to elbow and arm injuries. Not so much the mechanics. It's a WIKI article so TIFWIW.
This article list everyone who has had TJ surgery. The Reds currently have three pitchers who have had it,Volquez,Bray and Rhodes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 02:13 PM
Here is a WIKI article about TJ surgery. In it, it states that studies have been done which determined that pitch counts are the major contributing factor to elbow and arm injuries. Not so much the mechanics. It's a WIKI article so TIFWIW.
This article list everyone who has had TJ surgery. The Reds currently have three pitchers who have had it,Volquez,Bray and Rhodes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_John_surgery

Gotta read the study. Look who they studied. And how they measured the volume of pitches.

osuceltic
08-27-2010, 02:16 PM
Why do we call it an Inverted W & not an M?

This may be the best post in the history of Redszone, and I'm not kidding.

CTA513
08-27-2010, 02:44 PM
Time for Dibble to tell him he should have just toughed it out and then did the surgery on himself after the season.

Ghosts of 1990
08-27-2010, 03:06 PM
Time for Dibble to tell him he should have just toughed it out and then did the surgery on himself after the season.

Wow, talk about a guy who owes Stras an apology.

nate
08-27-2010, 03:29 PM
Time for Dibble to tell him he should have just toughed it out and then did the surgery on himself after the season.

Unfortunately, there's no knowing when (or if) Dibble's going have his "foot in mouth-ectemy."

:cool:

Sea Ray
08-27-2010, 03:30 PM
If this had come 50 innings later we'd hear all sorts of folks saying it was the "Verducci Effect." The Nats babied him like none other and his elbow still snapped.

I think too much is made over the Verducci Effect and specifically here in this town, we unnecessarily screwed a good pitcher, Leake, who was pitching lights out until they started messing with his routine.

Cedric
08-27-2010, 03:31 PM
If this had come 50 innings later we'd hear all sorts of folks saying it was the "Verducci Effect." The Nats babied him like none other and his elbow still snapped.

I think too much is made over the Verducci Effect and specifically here in this town, we unnecessarily screwed a good pitcher, Leake, who was pitching lights out until they started messing with his routine.

I agree with most of what you said about Verducci. I don't agree that Leake was lights out before they switched him up. He has been bad for awhile now.

Brutus
08-27-2010, 03:49 PM
http://www.drmikemarshall.com/

Those are some really weird looking deliveries in those videos, but Marshall is a very smart guy, nearly pitched his arm off, and maybe he's onto something. Oh, and he still hates Pete Rose.

Marshall is a guru, but I don't think any of his followers have made it in MLB.

Thank you for posting that link. I had heard about Marshall's techniques but never seen them. Very interesting to see them.

I know a guy from my hometown that was teaching teens the technique of having the throwing palm facing upward with the pitching hand going back, but some of those other techniques were very interesting.

_Sir_Charles_
08-27-2010, 04:41 PM
Isn't Strasburg one of the guys with the "inverted W" or such?

Yeah, I always thought it was inevitable that he'd get hurt. It's a shame though. He seemed like a really nice kid.

VR
08-27-2010, 05:33 PM
I knew it the moment I saw the replay.

Too bad for Strasburg...but a big ol' bummer for the Nats and their fans.

Roy Tucker
08-27-2010, 05:38 PM
Posnanski wrote a good column on this recently.

The norm for pitcher's with great talent is to get hurt and never amount to much. It's a rare thing for any one of them to be successful. The human body is not meant for the stress put on it by pitching.

EDIT: http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/24/the-pain-of-pitching/

REDREAD
08-27-2010, 10:48 PM
I don't get all this outrage. Dibble comes from a different era than Strasburg. What would have happened if a guy like Bob Gibson says he has to learn to pitch through pain?

Dibble is who he is. There is nothing that is going to change the way he is on the radio. He may be a loose cannon but maybe he has a point. Maybe he feels a $20M bonus boy in Strasburg should be a little tougher. Was he wrong in this instance, it appears to be that way. Should he be fired, no.

Did Dibble say anything worse than Marty has been spewing constantly for the past 10+ years? Marty has constantly questioned Reds player's heart, work ethic, intelligence, etc.

MattyHo4Life
08-27-2010, 11:04 PM
If this had come 50 innings later we'd hear all sorts of folks saying it was the "Verducci Effect." The Nats babied him like none other and his elbow still snapped.

I think too much is made over the Verducci Effect and specifically here in this town, we unnecessarily screwed a good pitcher, Leake, who was pitching lights out until they started messing with his routine.

What happened to Leake? He wasn't going every 5 days was he? I'm just wondering if maybe the extra rest hurt him like it hurt Garcia. The Cards started giving Garcia extra days rest, and he wasn't as effective. Garcia is better when he pitches every 5 days. Is it possible that the same could be said for Leake?

VR
08-27-2010, 11:06 PM
What happened to Leake? He wasn't going every 5 days was he? I'm just wondering if maybe the extra rest hurt him like it hurt Garcia. The Cards started giving Garcia extra days rest, and he wasn't as effective. Garcia is better when he pitches every 5 days. Is it possible that the same could be said for Leake?

Could very well be the case w/ Leake.

Although....Houdini Garcia got lit up again tonight. 12 baserunners in 5 1/3 innings. No runs. Sheesh.

MattyHo4Life
08-27-2010, 11:39 PM
Could very well be the case w/ Leake.

Although....Houdini Garcia got lit up again tonight. 12 baserunners in 5 1/3 innings. No runs. Sheesh.

I don't know how he pitched a 9 inning shutout against the Giants on Sunday with only 89 pitches thrown.

VR
08-27-2010, 11:46 PM
I don't know how he pitched a 9 inning shutout against the Giants on Sunday with only 89 pitches thrown.

http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pixie-dust.jpg

Sea Ray
08-27-2010, 11:51 PM
I agree with most of what you said about Verducci. I don't agree that Leake was lights out before they switched him up. He has been bad for awhile now.

They started skipping him in June

Sea Ray
08-27-2010, 11:54 PM
What happened to Leake? He wasn't going every 5 days was he? I'm just wondering if maybe the extra rest hurt him like it hurt Garcia. The Cards started giving Garcia extra days rest, and he wasn't as effective. Garcia is better when he pitches every 5 days. Is it possible that the same could be said for Leake?

In June they started skipping him and that's when things started to cave in. Interesting that you report the Cards did the same with Garcia with similar results.

I doubt Leake has a bum shoulder. Everytime I've heard it mentioned he says he feels great

traderumor
08-28-2010, 12:01 AM
I don't know how he pitched a 9 inning shutout against the Giants on Sunday with only 89 pitches thrown.Seriously, every game I watch Garcia, I simply shake my head and say "how?" Rasmus called Arroyo's stuff slop, I guess that makes Garcia's great big gobs of greasy grimy gopher guts.

Roy Tucker
09-07-2010, 02:46 PM
Interesting view on Strasburg's recovery by Doug Glanville...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=glanville_doug&id=5528790

Sea Ray
09-07-2010, 05:32 PM
Interesting view on Strasburg's recovery by Doug Glanville...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=glanville_doug&id=5528790

I don't agree with Glanville that Stasburg will rehab in "anonymity". It'll be the most public rehab ever. The difference between him rehabbing and the other players he mentioned is 10s of millions of dollars. They'll give him all the attention he needs and then some in rehab

redsmetz
07-29-2011, 09:09 PM
Here's an update on Strasburg from the Washington Post; threw 3 simulated innings.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/post/stephen-strasburg-getting-closer-to-rehab-start/2011/07/29/gIQAuIJJhI_blog.html

edabbs44
07-30-2011, 09:04 AM
For some reason I picture Strasburg's rehab training like something out of this scene:

http://mimg.ugo.com/200903/20575/rocky-iv-2.jpg