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Wheelhouse
09-02-2010, 10:20 PM
Here's an excerpt from McCoy's column today, and please note what I've bolded:


"ANYBODY ELSE notice the resurgence of Jay Bruce pretty much coincides with the arrival of Jim Edmonds? Anybody else notice how Bruce gravitates to Edmonds in the dugout. No surprise.

Edmonds has been schooling Bruce, along with Chris Heisey, Chris Valaika and even Jonny Gomes.

“We talk about a lot of things, offensive stuff, defensive stuff,” he said about his tutoring of Bruce. “Mostly it is mental stuff - trying to calm him with some things that I’ve learned over the years from Mark McGwire and Albert Pujols. I just try to keep him calm in the batter’s box.
Now my question is, shouldn't the hitting coach, Brook Jacoby, be doing this with Bruce and the other young players? Why is this new now that Edmonds is here?

marcshoe
09-02-2010, 10:22 PM
I've had thoughts that Edmonds would be a good replacement for Jacoby, but I doubt the Reds will change coaches after the year the offense has had.

edabbs44
09-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Here's an excerpt from McCoy's column today, and please note what I've bolded:

"ANYBODY ELSE notice the resurgence of Jay Bruce pretty much coincides with the arrival of Jim Edmonds? Anybody else notice how Bruce gravitates to Edmonds in the dugout. No surprise.

Edmonds has been schooling Bruce, along with Chris Heisey, Chris Valaika and even Jonny Gomes.

“We talk about a lot of things, offensive stuff, defensive stuff,” he said about his tutoring of Bruce. “Mostly it is mental stuff - trying to calm him with some things that I’ve learned over the years from Mark McGwire and Albert Pujols. I just try to keep him calm in the batter’s box.

Now my question is, shouldn't the hitting coach, Brook Jacoby, be doing this with Bruce and the other young players? Why is this new now that Edmonds is here?

Maybe it just clicks with other guys. Jacoby is the hitting coach on the #1 offensive team in the league. He's probably doing at least on OK job.

Degenerate39
09-02-2010, 10:35 PM
Edmonds for hitting coach

Wheelhouse
09-02-2010, 10:39 PM
Maybe it just clicks with other guys. Jacoby is the hitting coach on the #1 offensive team in the league. He's probably doing at least on OK job.

I agree, but one would think his priorities would be the plate approach of Bruce, Stubbs and Gomes. If that seemed lacking to Edmonds when he got here, I think that's a problem.

Mario-Rijo
09-02-2010, 10:39 PM
I've had thoughts that Edmonds would be a good replacement for Jacoby, but I doubt the Reds will change coaches after the year the offense has had.

They did get rid of Dick Pole last season and really there wasn't a real good reason to from the outside looking in. The bullpen was lights out under him so he had that to hang his hat on even if it wasn't his doing and the starters (Bailey, Cueto, Maloney etc.) showed strides. Ya never know.

camisadelgolf
09-02-2010, 11:42 PM
They did get rid of Dick Pole last season and really there wasn't a real good reason to from the outside looking in. The bullpen was lights out under him so he had that to hang his hat on even if it wasn't his doing and the starters (Bailey, Cueto, Maloney etc.) showed strides. Ya never know.
The story I read said that Pole 'lost the clubhouse'. When pitchers were struggling or had questions, they were looking to other members of the staff instead of him because they didn't have faith that he could be helpful.

WVRedsFan
09-03-2010, 12:12 AM
I look for Edmonds to be part of the staff if he doesn't play next year. Walt brought him in for a reason.

sabometrics
09-03-2010, 12:18 AM
There are certain places where a respected peer (in this case fellow player) may be able to help some players more than a coach, or help them in a different way. I believe this goes for all facets of life. Say when I started college I picked up a lot of helpful stuff from friends/relatives who are older than me (late 20s and 30s), and I picked up some helpful stuff from professors, advisors, and my parents as well. This development doesn't mean Jacoby isn't doing his job, it just means we have one more guy that these guys are listening to. The key is they are listening. We never hear about what the coaches do to help the players improve like this, it just isn't talked about as much. Doesn't mean they aren't part of the club's improvement.

Ron Madden
09-03-2010, 04:20 AM
I'd say Edmonds is exactly right when he tells younger hitters not to think too much in the batters box. I believe he's right again when he tells 'em not to dwell on mistakes they might have made while at bat, on the base paths or in the field.

I'm sure Jacoby has preached the same sermon. Maybe these kids are more willing to listen to a guy they have seen on highlight reels who is still playing.


Any great coach needs talent to work with. I still believe Chris Chambliss is the best hitting coach the Reds have had since Big Klu.

Playadlc
09-03-2010, 05:03 AM
This is such a stupid article. Like Jacoby got to this level of coaching without telling guys to have an approach at the plate. I mean, are you kidding me?

Let's go over this...

Reds offense this year:
1st in runs scored (by a wide margin)
1st in OPS
1st in BA
2nd in HR's
1st in SLG%
1st in OBP%

Sabometrics is right on in his post above. While Edmonds is more than likely telling Bruce and co. good stuff, he is, more importantly, a fresh voice. Someone new that is reinforcing the things that Jacoby and the coaching staff are already teaching. For Hal to insinuate that Jacoby is not talking to these guys about these pretty simple baseball principles is downright silly. Maybe he should give Brook Jacoby some credit for how well we are performing at the plate.

Wheelhouse
09-03-2010, 07:21 AM
This is such a stupid article. Like Jacoby got to this level of coaching without telling guys to have an approach at the plate. I mean, are you kidding me?

Let's go over this...

Reds offense this year:
1st in runs scored (by a wide margin)
1st in OPS
1st in BA
2nd in HR's
1st in SLG%
1st in OBP%

Sabometrics is right on in his post above. While Edmonds is more than likely telling Bruce and co. good stuff, he is, more importantly, a fresh voice. Someone new that is reinforcing the things that Jacoby and the coaching staff are already teaching. For Hal to insinuate that Jacoby is not talking to these guys about these pretty simple baseball principles is downright silly. Maybe he should give Brook Jacoby some credit for how well we are performing at the plate.

I don't think Hal was insinuating anything of the sort with the article. It was I who brought up Jacoby at all. The Reds overall numbers are great, no doubt. But would you not say that the lack of a solid hitting approach of Bruce and Stubbs had been going on for some time, and did you never ask yourself why it was not being addressed with these players of the highest talent, who are keys to the Reds' future success?

RFS62
09-03-2010, 08:02 AM
What Edmunds is talking about is the same thing most coaches would be saying. It's the sports psychology aspect of performance.

Visualization, positive imagery ..... a lot of techniques are used on the highest levels of every sport.

I'll bet he's not hearing anything he hasn't heard before. Sometimes you have to be ready for it to click. And sometimes it takes coming from a guy who performed and had success with that approach.

cumberlandreds
09-03-2010, 09:05 AM
I think players listen to other players more than do a coach sometimes. I would say this is the case for Bruce. He is listening to someone who is still active and knows what it takes to get it done on a nightly basis.

Caveat Emperor
09-03-2010, 09:20 AM
Now my question is, shouldn't the hitting coach, Brook Jacoby, be doing this with Bruce and the other young players? Why is this new now that Edmonds is here?

He almost certainly is. Sometimes it helps to hear it from a different voice -- especially when that voice was one of the most consistent and feared LH hitters of the previous generation.

Jay Bruce was 5 when Jacoby swung a bat for the last time as a major leaguer. It doesn't surprise me at all that he'd be more receptive to advice from Edmonds, a guy he saw in the prime of his career growing up, as opposed to some guy he'd have to google to know anything about.

Screwball
09-03-2010, 09:32 AM
He almost certainly is. Sometimes it helps to hear it from a different voice.

Yep, look no further than this very thread for a good example. By my count, about 7 different posters have all basically said the same thing, but sabometrics analogy made the most sense to me as it best expressed the situation in terms I could relate to. Does that mean the rest of those posters either A.) didn't try, or B.) didn't know what they were talking about? Of course not.

Maybe what RFS said or how cumberland put it made the most sense to someone else. All that really matters is that Jay Bruce has seemed to 'get it,' and the fact that he got it from a former stud outfielder Jay can relate to doesn't have to be an indictment of the hitting coach.

traderumor
09-03-2010, 09:56 AM
Who says it is on a coach to micromanage each and every player on the team? I see questions arising like "isn't this Jacoby's job?" is answered as well, yes, ultimately, but is he the only source of wisdom for a player? Isn't that a bit short-sighted, limiting, and inefficient?

lollipopcurve
09-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Edmonds is/was the kind of player Bruce would like to be/become -- lefty hitter with power to all fields, great defender. There's no doubt Bruce is going to be all ears when Edmonds has some advice to give.

Heath
09-03-2010, 11:04 AM
I am sure when Brook Jacoby was coming up as a young 3rd baseman with the Indians, he might have turned to Andre Thornton or Mike Hargrove about hitting.

IMO, nothing to see here, move on.

BTW - Edmonds is back next year in Cincinnati. Book it. For better or for worse.

RFS62
09-03-2010, 11:28 AM
Talking about hitting is a time honored tradition among players.

You get bits and pieces from the veterans who are the mentor types and take a young kid under their wing to show them the ropes. Pete Rose got a lot of advice from Frank Robinson and Vada Pinson when he first came up.

It's a great part of the game, former enemies helping one another to improve their craft.

puca
09-03-2010, 12:00 PM
The only thing that bothers me about hearing that players are talking with Edmonds is that Stubbs isn't mentioned as one of them.

RedsManRick
09-03-2010, 12:31 PM
Advice from a peer is quite different from advice for a superior -- even if it's the same advice. This is as true in baseball as in every other aspect of life.

Cooper
09-03-2010, 12:39 PM
Baker's the hitting coach -Jacoby has the title, Baker has the job.

Heath
09-03-2010, 12:39 PM
The only thing that bothers me about hearing that players are talking with Edmonds is that Stubbs isn't mentioned as one of them.

You don't know that he does. I think Bruce & Stubbs are tight. My guess is Hal's eyes didn't see him that day.

johngalt
09-03-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't think Hal was insinuating anything of the sort with the article. It was I who brought up Jacoby at all. The Reds overall numbers are great, no doubt. But would you not say that the lack of a solid hitting approach of Bruce and Stubbs had been going on for some time, and did you never ask yourself why it was not being addressed with these players of the highest talent, who are keys to the Reds' future success?

But see, you're assuming it's not being addressed. People always make WAY too many assumptions about what is or is not being done in sports. How do you know it's not being addressed? Just because it isn't being executed?

VR
09-03-2010, 12:58 PM
It was brought up on a telecast.....I think it was about Jacoby, and went something like this.

"Unless the player comes to me looking for help....I pretty much leave the alone"

Now....don't freak out. It didn't come across as hands-in-the-air, I can't do anything approach.

It was more about players really understanding they need help, because that's when things really change.

oneupper
09-03-2010, 01:01 PM
I know nothing about Bruce's swing mechanics.
But seriously, he has to lose that "lip curl" thing he does with his mouth. Looks like a nervous debutante or something.

_Sir_Charles_
09-03-2010, 01:13 PM
I know nothing about Bruce's swing mechanics.
But seriously, he has to lose that "lip curl" thing he does with his mouth. Looks like a nervous debutante or something.

Bruce's version of Jordan's tongue. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't even know he's doing it.

TeamBoone
09-04-2010, 09:08 PM
I'm thinking that Edmonds talks to the young hitters in an informal atmosphere (dugout, clubhouse, or even if they're out on the town). Jacoby's instructional coaching (rather than merely chatting) is probably in a much more structured atmosphere.

bucksfan2
09-04-2010, 09:58 PM
I look for Edmonds to be part of the staff if he doesn't play next year. Walt brought him in for a reason.

Edmonds has made $86M over his career in salary alone. I just don't see why he would want to go take such a pay cut to become a hitting coach.

HokieRed
09-04-2010, 11:58 PM
1. I look for Edmonds to be part of a LF platoon next year, if he wants to play again, and I'm betting he does. 2. On the Jay Bruce matter, hitting's about 40% confidence, 40% superstition. Guys are always looking for some little bit of reason to do this or that, then constructing some narrative about why they made a change etc. etc. Doesn't mean a whole lot about either Edmonds or Jacoby. Let's just hope Bruce keeps believing in it when he gets back.