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Wheelhouse
09-03-2010, 12:08 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/sports/baseball/03jocketty.html?_r=2&ref=sports

He mentions Billy Martin as an early mentor. I remember when I was a kid meeting Martin after a spring training game in Tucson. My brother and I were waiting in the parking lot, totally alone as it was well after the game, with two broken bats given to us during the day (We'd go for the whole DAY, watch morning workouts etc. Got a lot of balls, bats, etc. and to meet and talk to Bob Feller.) We ran over and asked "Mr. Martin" to sign them as he was walking to his car. He couldn't have been nicer. He mussed our hair, signed the bats, and drove off. He seemed like a lonely guy. He made our day though.

RedsManRick
09-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Good article. I'm glad the times recognized that while Jocketty has done well, he came in to a good situation, one better than many realized.

traderumor
09-03-2010, 01:01 PM
Knows baseball despite playing APBA. Everyone knows real baseball men are Strat men ;)

lollipopcurve
09-03-2010, 01:01 PM
while Jocketty has done well, he came in to a good situation, one better than many realized.

No one deserves more credit for the team's rise to prominence than the guy who has put the roster together.

westofyou
09-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Knows baseball despite playing APBA. Everyone knows real baseball men are Strat men ;)

Joey Votto will have a MONSTER card next year

_Sir_Charles_
09-03-2010, 01:09 PM
Knows baseball despite playing APBA. Everyone knows real baseball men are Strat men ;)

LOL. I'd forgotten all about Stratomatic. We used to play that all the time back in the early 80's. Fun stuff.

kaldaniels
09-03-2010, 01:26 PM
Good article. I'm glad the times recognized that while Jocketty has done well, he came in to a good situation, one better than many realized.

If you could go back in time knowing what you now know Rick, would you hire Walt in 2008? Would you get rid of him today if you could? Just asking cause giving Walt credit for his moves seems hard to get from you . I'm not looking to start some trouble, I'd just like for you to lay out your assessment of Walt.

Tom Servo
09-03-2010, 01:31 PM
I thought Walt was in his 60's, shows what I know.

kaldaniels
09-03-2010, 01:33 PM
I thought Walt was in his 60's, shows what I know.

Same here.

Roy Tucker
09-03-2010, 01:45 PM
Good article. I'm glad the times recognized that while Jocketty has done well, he came in to a good situation, one better than many realized.

I'd use the word "realized" in a different way for Jocketty in that he caused something to happen. Potential can be a heavy burden and the Reds have had potential before and nothing came of it. WJ made it actually happen.

Like my sig on another board, things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out.

medford
09-03-2010, 01:50 PM
I thought Walt was in his 60's, shows what I know.

Even worse, I thought he was closer to 70 than 60 for whatever reason and the thought of him running the show the next 10 years were out of the question. Knowing he's only 59, looks like he's in good health (as far as one can tell from seeing him on TV), he could easily put in another 10 seasons if he wanted.

The Operator
09-03-2010, 01:55 PM
I think what makes Jock look aged is his lack of hair, and the fact that what hair he does have is snow white. He doesn't look that old in the face, though.

nemesis
09-03-2010, 02:00 PM
Even worse, I thought he was closer to 70 than 60 for whatever reason and the thought of him running the show the next 10 years were out of the question. Knowing he's only 59, looks like he's in good health (as far as one can tell from seeing him on TV), he could easily put in another 10 seasons if he wanted.

If not he could always turn it over to Bavasi, heard he does wonders with moving Minor League talent... :cool:

RichRed
09-03-2010, 02:02 PM
I think what makes Jock look aged is his lack of hair, and the fact that what hair he does have is snow white. He doesn't look that old in the face, though.

Fitting for the club that once employed Sparky Anderson. Looking back at photos and clips, it's almost impossible to believe Sparky was only 41 during the '75 season.

fearofpopvol1
09-03-2010, 03:29 PM
I realize it may have never meshed well, but remember, Jocketty was hired on before Krivsky ever left. I wonder if Krivsky and Jocketety had worked together what could have been. I realize ego may not have allowed on that, but that could've been special.

I am surprised Krivsky hasn't gotten another chance to be a GM. Hopefully he will be.

BoydsOfSummer
09-03-2010, 03:37 PM
Knows baseball despite playing APBA. Everyone knows real baseball men are Strat men ;)

Diamond Mind v10, baby! Best sim engine and the play-by-play is light years above the rest. :thumbup:

And back in the card days...Pursue the Pennant (PTP).

edabbs44
09-03-2010, 04:08 PM
I realize it may have never meshed well, but remember, Jocketty was hired on before Krivsky ever left. I wonder if Krivsky and Jocketety had worked together what could have been. I realize ego may not have allowed on that, but that could've been special.

I am surprised Krivsky hasn't gotten another chance to be a GM. Hopefully he will be.

Never would have worked in the format it was in. Krivsky as an adviser maybe, but the GM role was not for him and that's where Walt is the goods. Krivsky's GM title would have just been a title if it stayed the way it was and I think he would have quit before long.

TheNext44
09-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Never would have worked in the format it was in. Krivsky as an adviser maybe, but the GM role was not for him and that's where Walt is the goods. Krivsky's GM title would have just been a title if it stayed the way it was and I think he would have quit before long.

One of Krivsky's biggest faults was that he did not play well with others. He couldn't handle Brad Kuhlman being the in the same organization has him, there's no way he could handle Jocketty for too long.

traderumor
09-03-2010, 04:50 PM
Of course, there's that other thread where WJ is a sitting on his hands buffoon in the offseason. I know I'm confused. Is he or isn't he?

Tom Servo
09-03-2010, 05:50 PM
If not he could always turn it over to Bavasi, heard he does wonders with moving Minor League talent... :cool:
YouTube - Boo This Man! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoNWwhzh3M)

fearofpopvol1
09-03-2010, 10:54 PM
Never would have worked in the format it was in. Krivsky as an adviser maybe, but the GM role was not for him and that's where Walt is the goods. Krivsky's GM title would have just been a title if it stayed the way it was and I think he would have quit before long.

I disagree. Krvisky did a lot of good things as the GM? Better than Walt? Certainly not as proven and maybe not better...but to insinuate that he couldn't handle the gig doesn't hold much weight.

edabbs44
09-03-2010, 10:56 PM
I disagree. Krvisky did a lot of good things as the GM? Better than Walt? Certainly not as proven and maybe not better...but to insinuate that he couldn't handle the gig doesn't hold much weight.

Krivsky did some good, but being a GM is much more than making a couple of good acquisitions.

fearofpopvol1
09-04-2010, 12:12 AM
Krivsky did some good, but being a GM is much more than making a couple of good acquisitions.

Was he given a fair chance to succeed? Do we know what his plan was and how it would have turned out?

KronoRed
09-04-2010, 12:30 AM
Was he given a fair chance to succeed?

Not really, he was on his way to being fired the day Walt become available, it just took a few months for it to be official.

edabbs44
09-04-2010, 07:25 AM
Was he given a fair chance to succeed? Do we know what his plan was and how it would have turned out?

I think he was given a pretty fair chance to show improvement.

Mario-Rijo
09-04-2010, 11:20 AM
I think he was given a pretty fair chance to show improvement.

That answer right there just shows your bias.

The Operator
09-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Can't we just give Walt kudos on a job well done without turning this into another in a long line of Krivsky-Jocketty sparring threads? :(

Mario-Rijo
09-04-2010, 12:06 PM
Can't we just give Walt kudos on a job well done without turning this into another in a long line of Krivsky-Jocketty sparring threads? :(

Trying not to turn it into one, I swear.

Tommyjohn25
09-04-2010, 12:06 PM
Can't we just give Walt kudos on a job well done without turning this into another in a long line of Krivsky-Jocketty sparring threads? :(

Agreed.

The Operator
09-04-2010, 12:12 PM
Trying not to turn it into one, I swear. I didn't mean to accuse you or anyone else in particular... I'd just hate to see what could be a positive thread get out of hand and be closed down. :thumbup:

edabbs44
09-04-2010, 01:09 PM
Fair enough. Walt has done a great job in his time here. He had a solid, young base to work with and has done a good job with the rest of the roster while having limited payroll room to work with.

The future looks great.

kpresidente
09-04-2010, 08:00 PM
What has Jocketty done?

The only significant move was getting Rolen for very little, but he gave away Dunn for even less. Both are 3.5-win players this year. I'll give that a slight net positive, just 'cause I like Rolen better.

Other than that, what impact moves has he made? Looks to me like things have turned around mostly because some key young players have come into, or are starting to come into, their own.

kaldaniels
09-04-2010, 08:15 PM
What has Jocketty done?

The only significant move was getting Rolen for very little, but he gave away Dunn for even less. Both are 3.5-win players this year. I'll give that a slight net positive, just 'cause I like Rolen better.

Other than that, what impact moves has he made? Looks to me like things have turned around mostly because some key young players have come into, or are starting to come into, their own.

The minute someone starts acting like the Dunn trade should have netted a tit for tat return, I just tune out. Walt chose to not resign Dunn, and got what he could for him.

edabbs44
09-04-2010, 09:47 PM
What has Jocketty done?

The only significant move was getting Rolen for very little, but he gave away Dunn for even less. Both are 3.5-win players this year. I'll give that a slight net positive, just 'cause I like Rolen better.

Other than that, what impact moves has he made? Looks to me like things have turned around mostly because some key young players have come into, or are starting to come into, their own.



The minute someone starts acting like the Dunn trade should have netted a tit for tat return, I just tune out. Walt chose to not resign Dunn, and got what he could for him.

Yeah, I tend to agree. But I will add the following:

1) Assuming Dunn's production as being equal in Cincy as it is in Washington is erroneous. A lot of his value is tied to his move to 1B, which either wouldn't have happened in Cincy (thus providing us with his -37 UZR from his last season in the OF, or if it did that means Votto either is moved in trade or becomes an unknown quantity in LF.

2) Regarding what Walt has done: Ignoring the other positive moves that he has made and that you failed to mention, one thing to remember is that he didn't screw this situation up. He had a good situation and worked it well. He didn't panic and make a stupid trade. He didn't make any dumb signings that will hurt this team in the future. He assessed the situation, created a plan and, to this point, it has worked out beautifully.

HokieRed
09-04-2010, 11:18 PM
One thing Walt has done is simply to make the best trade made by this organization in many years, as some of us happily pointed out last year. Simple question: Is this team's success even conceivable without Scott Rolen? To me, the answer to that is a clear no.

edabbs44
09-04-2010, 11:22 PM
One thing Walt has done is simply to make the best trade made by this organization in many years, as some of us happily pointed out last year. Simple question: Is this team's success even conceivable without Scott Rolen? To me, the answer to that is a clear no.

And that has a lot to do with this excerpt:


“We needed to change the culture,” Jocketty said. “There was a culture here, I believe, that they never really thought about winning; they were never really serious about it. They talked about winning, but I don’t think there was really that fight or drive to be competitive and win.”

Rolen is a great example of this and is a true professional. I expected for this team to be more professional this season and much less embarrassing than they have been the past few years, but they are even exceeding my wildest expectations.

HokieRed
09-04-2010, 11:26 PM
I made the point about culture last year. As long as EE was your third baseman, you couldn't take yourselves seriously. How can a team respect itself when it has a player playing an infield position whom everyone on the field, including the player, knows can't field the position? That's not to blame EE; he should have been moved to the outfield in 2005. That he wasn't was a sign the org. didn't really think it could win.

Wheelhouse
09-04-2010, 11:31 PM
What has Jocketty done?

The only significant move was getting Rolen for very little, but he gave away Dunn for even less. Both are 3.5-win players this year. I'll give that a slight net positive, just 'cause I like Rolen better.

Other than that, what impact moves has he made? Looks to me like things have turned around mostly because some key young players have come into, or are starting to come into, their own.

He's kept the good elements, flushed out the bad, and made some pointed improvements. The Reds have always had talent in the past 15 years of stink, great talents like Griffey, Dunn, Kearns, and others--what they've lacked is the ability to put it all together. Also, Jocketty NOT making a huge move at the deadline has proven to be extremely wise. Often superb management can be the move you DON'T make. On the intangibles level, he has brought a better baseball culture to the Reds. His work has been sterling--we're finally shaking off all the damage Jim Bowden did to a great organization.

bucksfan2
09-06-2010, 10:04 AM
I made the point about culture last year. As long as EE was your third baseman, you couldn't take yourselves seriously. How can a team respect itself when it has a player playing an infield position whom everyone on the field, including the player, knows can't field the position? That's not to blame EE; he should have been moved to the outfield in 2005. That he wasn't was a sign the org. didn't really think it could win.

Oh I think it goes a lot deeper that this. The Reds went through a decade of losing, a decade of not competing. A decade of June swoons and devistating west coast trips. More than anything the clubhouse culture needed to be changed. Losing had to stop being acceptable, and the team needed to learn how to win.

I listened to an interview with Votto after the final Reds Giants game. I think it was Pic who made mention of how nice it is to have a successful west coast trip when it has been a bugaboo in the past. Votto made a comment how "this" team doesn't have a problem winning on the west coast. This team is different. This is a new team.

I know this is an unpopular thought but I think the organization underwent a sea change when Jr and Dunn were traded. This team needed/clubhouse/culture needed a change and Walt made that change. I think when Rolen was brought in a sense of professionalism and winning was brought to the team. Its amazing but the Reds record from when Rolen was traded for until now is one of the best in the game. It isn't just Scott, but to me it was a culmination of events that took this organiztion from a decade of losing to one that believes they can win.

kpresidente
09-06-2010, 10:11 PM
The minute someone starts acting like the Dunn trade should have netted a tit for tat return, I just tune out. Walt chose to not resign Dunn, and got what he could for him.

Who's acting like that? Maybe you should read more than three words before you tune out.