Bernie Miklasz (Post Dispatch) on the state of the Cardinals

[membengal]

Really interesting read for Reds fans from the PD's main columnist. A taste:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_734c7022-4a4c-586a-bb48-67ab0904cc1f.html

The rest of the article has some pertinent speculation on a rift between Lagenius and the current GM, and some kind words for Walt.

Happy Sunday morning!

[membengal]

Also in today's Post Dispatch, this on the challenges facing the Cards this off-season. Contrasted with Cincy, it's eye-opening:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_792edc4e-63e0-54be-9e0e-c862b1c24b7e.html

[hebroncougar]

I've been reading the St. Louis websites all month, and from what I've read, I'd be shocked if Larussa returns there next season.

[Redlegs]

A lot of St. Louis fans have had enough of manager Tony LaRussa. His ego seems to be finally getting to them and it looks like Colby Rasmus has found himself to be in the same doghouse Scott Rolen was in. It may be a Rasmus or LaRussa situation for 2011. If LaRussa sours on you, you're done. Not sure the Cards brass will make the same mistake they did by shipping Rolen out.

With the emergence of the Reds and all the young talent coming, I think St. Louis is left scurrying to figure this stuff out.

[OldRightHander]

The Cardinals are 52-55 over their last 107 games. A franchise that proudly deploys a nucleus of run producers Albert Pujols and Matt Holliday, starting pitchers Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter and Jaime Garcia and top MLB defensive catcher Yadier Molina has managed to win only six games more than the Kansas City Royals since May 4.

Love this part.

[Hap]

LINK?

[Redlegs]

LINK?

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_734c7022-4a4c-586a-bb48-67ab0904cc1f.html

[Redlegs]

http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=747179

http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=747158

http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=747082

[membengal]

Isn't that the same as this thread from earlier this morning?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85436

[membengal]

Yeah, taking the long view, it is rather amazing.

[Slyder]

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd233/mutleydogbone/nelson_ha_ha.jpg

[membengal]

From the second article:


Healing a Rift

Promises of healing a longstanding organizational rift between major and minor leagues have not been kept. Duncan and bullpen coach Marty Mason convened a meeting of minor-league pitching coaches during spring training. The meeting grew contentious, according to several who attended, and communication between levels all but ceased.

[membengal]

Also from the second article:


Accurately Gauging Organizational Depth

The Cardinals opened the season unable to identify their so-called No. 6 starter while carrying an unwieldy roster of six outfielders that listed Allen Craig, Nick Stavinoha and Joe Mather as its depth.

[Scrap Irony]

If the Cardinals are banking on minor league free agents and the like to return them to the upper echelon on the National League after a year's absence, they will probably again be on the outside looking in during the 2011 season.

St. Louis needs a RF (especially considering Ludwick's ill-fated trade), two or three infielders surrounding Pujols, and two starting pitchers.

That's a lot to look for in one off-season, especially considering that the Cardinals are not going to be big spenders on the free agent market due to Pujols' salary.

[Redlegs]

As much as he gets on my nerves, he's done a hell of a job in St Louis in his time there. They had finished in the middle of the pack under Joe Torre for several years. There was a time when the Reds outdrew them at the gate as well, in the mid 90's, I think.

[westofyou]

Lot of Reds fans want Dusty canned, a lot of Phillie fans want Manual gone, I've heard Braves fans complain about Bobby all during the 90's.

You get hired to get fired.

[Reds4Life]

LaRussa has become a cranky old man, and his ego and whining aren't doing him any favors.

It's probably time for him to retire. I just hope Walt doesn't try and convince him to come here, if Dusty leaves. The last thing we need is a primma donna manager with an attitude problem around a bunch of young players.

[Jpup]

Probably one of the only things that could stop my love for the Reds is if they hired LaRussa. Can not stand him.

[MattyHo4Life]

This is nothing new though. Cardinals fans have wanted LaRussa gone ever since he was hired...even in 2006 when they won the World Series.

[OnBaseMachine]

Colby Rasmus asked for a trade earlier this season?


When reporters approached Rasmus, his answers were cryptic and non-commital. Asked about La Russa's contention that Rasmus was happier now with the Cardinals, Rasmus said: "If that's what he said, I don't have a comment on that."

Asked if he was happy with the Cardinals, he said: "I'd rather not answer that if I don't have to."


http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/09/05/cryptic-colby-rasmus-hints-at-rift-between-him-tony-la-russa/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[HokieRed]

If the choice is between LaRussa and Rasmus, wise Cardinal fans should hope for LaRussa, even with all his problems.

[OnBaseMachine]

Wow, check out this quote from Pujols on Rasmus, from Jeff Passan:

Albert Pujols says of Colby Rasmus: "We need to figure a way to get him out of here." Rest of the story should be up soon on Yahoo! Sports.

http://twitter.com/JeffPassan

[macro]

Isn't that the same as this thread from earlier this morning?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85436 (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85436)

Yep, let's merge 'em.

[flyer85]

I'd rather they just trade Rasmus

[Scrap Irony]

Wow, check out this quote from Pujols on Rasmus, from Jeff Passan:

Albert Pujols says of Colby Rasmus: "We need to figure a way to get him out of here." Rest of the story should be up soon on Yahoo! Sports.

http://twitter.com/JeffPassan

If Pujols wants him gone, he'll be gone.

I'd offer Francisco, straight up for him. Maybe Maloney. Either might get it done, too.

[reds44]

Here's the full article that has Pujols' quotes.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-rasmuspujols090510

Correct me I'm wrong, but wasn't Walt the one who drafted Rasmus? I could live with a Rasmus/Stubbs/Bruce OF with Heisey filling in for Rasmus/Bruce against some tough lefties.

Also, didn't Rolen leave St. Louis because of a feud with LaRussa? How do you feud with Scott Rolen?

[Brutus]

Toxic

[Big Klu]

Really interesting read for Reds fans from the PD's main columnist. A taste:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_734c7022-4a4c-586a-bb48-67ab0904cc1f.html

The rest of the article has some pertinent speculation on a rift between Lagenius and the current GM, and some kind words for Walt.

Happy Sunday morning!

Good article. One mistake though, Bernie--Homer Bailey is 24 years old, not 26.

[CTA513]

Wow, check out this quote from Pujols on Rasmus, from Jeff Passan:

Albert Pujols says of Colby Rasmus: "We need to figure a way to get him out of here." Rest of the story should be up soon on Yahoo! Sports.

http://twitter.com/JeffPassan


Pujols should tell the Cardinals to trade him to the Reds for a box of baseballs and some new bats.

:D

[MattyHo4Life]

Correct me I'm wrong, but wasn't Walt the one who drafted Rasmus? I could live with a Rasmus/Stubbs/Bruce OF with Heisey filling in for Rasmus/Bruce against some tough lefties.

Colby was drafted while Walt was the GM of the Cardinals, but Walt isn't credited for drafting him. Jeff Luhnow was the one that wanted Rasmus, and I believe that was his first year in charge of the draft.

[traderumor]

I guess the hometown discount to play in baseball city has expired :p:

[oneupper]

Stubbs for Rasmus. Straight up.

[MattyHo4Life]

I guess the hometown discount to play in baseball city has expired :p:

"I mean, yeah, I’d like to be here. But there’s no telling what’s going to happen. I’d rather say nothing, so that way you’ll write nothing.”

Rasmus actually did say he wanted to stay in St. Louis. Was he enthusiastic about it? Nope! I think his reason is the same as Ludwick, Rolen, and many others. They want and deserve playing time that LaRussa wasn't willing to give them.

[Brutus]

Colby was drafted while Walt was the GM of the Cardinals, but Walt isn't credited for drafting him. Jeff Luhnow was the one that wanted Rasmus, and I believe that was his first year in charge of the draft.

I think this is a bunch of baloney. The only people that don't credit Walt for the guys he drafted are the ones that are looking for a reason to avoid giving him credit.

I'm sure he's 'credited' with the draft picks that didn't pan out. But the ones that worked out? They were the ideas of someone else.

The GM is "in charge" of the draft. It's still their ultimate say. Especially the earlier picks.

[MattyHo4Life]

I think this is a bunch of baloney. The only people that don't credit Walt for the guys he drafted are the ones that are looking for a reason to avoid giving him credit.

I'm sure he's 'credited' with the draft picks that didn't pan out. But the ones that worked out? They were the ideas of someone else.

The GM is "in charge" of the draft. It's still their ultimate say. Especially the earlier picks.


Walt had control of the draft until that season, and that is why he left.

[Ron Madden]

I'm glad the Reds and Cardinals are finished with one another for the season.

Frankly all the Cardinal talk is getting kinda old. ;)

[MattyHo4Life]

Oh, and if Rasmus asked for a trade... I don't blame him one bit after the way he has been treated by LaRussa.

[MattyHo4Life]

I haven't read all of the threads here today, I've been slacking. So maybe it's been mentioned already. Anyways, did anybody see the comments that Carpenter said about Votto?

[Brutus]

Walt had control of the draft until that season, and that is why he left.

That's why he left? Correct me if I'm wrong... the Cardinals fired Jocketty. Yes?

So how did supposedly having the control over the draft lead to his departure if he left involuntarily?

I think you're being fed a bunch of misinformation that is commonly put out after two sides split up. Just like being mutual friends with spouses that divorce, the story dramatically depends on who's telling it.

[PuffyPig]

I haven't read all of the threads here today, I've been slacking. So maybe it's been mentioned already. Anyways, did anybody see the comments that Carpenter said about Votto?

What did he say?

[oneupper]

I haven't read all of the threads here today, I've been slacking. So maybe it's been mentioned already. Anyways, did anybody see the comments that Carpenter said about Votto?

Very complimentary, he was. Carp must be looking to repair his image.
I'm not buying it.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100905/SPT04/9050354/Carpenter-calls-Votto-a-tough-challenge

[Spitball]

Do the Cards dare trade Pujols? Without a strong farm system to bring in inexpensive quality, it seems to me that they will be seriously handicapped by one player making $25 million.

It seems players making that kind of money end up in New York, Boston, or Los Angeles...or they end up on a team employing a bunch of discount players filling out the roster.

[reds44]

Do the Cards dare trade Pujols? Without a strong farm system to bring in inexpensive quality, it seems to me that they will be seriously handicapped by one player making $25 million.

It seems players making that kind of money end up in New York, Boston, or Los Angeles...or they end up on a team employing a bunch of discount players filling out the roster.
You can't trade a free agent.

[Chip R]

You can't trade a free agent.

He's not a free agent yet. He's got a club option for 2011 and I'm gonna guess StL will pick that up for the same amount they paid him this year.

[Spitball]

He's not a free agent yet. He's got a club option for 2011 and I'm gonna guess StL will pick that up for the same amount they paid him this year.

I agree. The Cardinals will obviously pick up his option unless they can sign him to a deal before that happens. But, do the Cards dare deal him? I feel certain they would hold onto him until the July trade deadline, but if signing him seems difficult, will they opt to go into their post-Pujols era?

I think they would be wise to trade him. But to whom? Few teams will be able to afford his contract. The Yankees do not have a spot for him, and that is good news for the Reds. There is one less bidder to increase the Cardinals' return. The Angels might be able to afford him and offer a package featuring Morales, Kendrick, Santana, and some prospects. The Dodgers, Red Sox, and Mets could start biddings with packages featuring names like Kemp, Youkilis, or Davis.

The Mariners certainly showed they could benefit from shedding contracts by dealing Griffey, Randy Johnson, and letting Rodriguez walk. Gillick parlayed those players into a great early 2000s team.

Of course, the fans in St. Louis would be hard to sell on a deal for their biggest star since Stan Musial. Public relations-wise, the Cards might be wiser to let him walk away from them

[TheNext44]

Brandon Phillips for Colby Rasmus :)

[TheNext44]

Trading Pujols is the Cards only chance at competing in the next few years.

If I were the Cards GM, I would go into an all rebuilding year next season. Get rid of La Russa, replace him with a young no name manager. Trade Pujols, Carpenter, Franklin, Lohse, Molina, and Holliday to start with. Bring over as many prospects that you can get for them, and use the core of Wainright, Garcia, Rasmus, and Ryan to build on.

[MattyHo4Life]

Trading Pujols is the Cards only chance at competing in the next few years.

If I were the Cards GM, I would go into an all rebuilding year next season. Get rid of La Russa, replace him with a young no name manager. Trade Pujols, Carpenter, Franklin, Lohse, Molina, and Holliday to start with. Bring over as many prospects that you can get for them, and use the core of Wainright, Garcia, Rasmus, and Ryan to build on.

Oquendo should be LaRussa's replacement. Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.

[traderumor]

Oquendo should be LaRussa's replacement. Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.Well, there you go, that's all there is to it. Man, I don't know how there are so many perennial losers when it is so simple.

[TheNext44]

Oquendo should be LaRussa's replacement. Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.

I hope Jose gets his chance, he deserves it.

If you keep Pujols, then rebuild around him. Trade Carpenter, Holliday, Molina, Lohse... any one over 30 pretty much. But you won't get much for them.

You can rebuild the Cardinals in a very short time if a smart trade of Pujols is made. This current makeup of the Cardinals can not compete much longer. Weak farm system and no payflex is a bad recipie.

The Mariners won 116 games after they traded Griffey, A-Rod and Johnson. It's tough to imagine, but I think it's the smart move.

[Spitball]

Trading Pujols is the Cards only chance at competing in the next few years.

I agree. As great as he has been, $25 million would seriously hinder a team's ability to build a balanced team.


If I were the Cards GM, I would go into an all rebuilding year next season. Get rid of La Russa, replace him with a young no name manager. Trade Pujols, Carpenter, Franklin, Lohse, Molina, and Holliday to start with. Bring over as many prospects that you can get for them, and use the core of Wainright, Garcia, Rasmus, and Ryan to build on.

I believe they could shed Pujols's contract and avoid an all out fire sale. In my opinion, they could probably add a few key components with a trade of Pujols and continue to compete in the N.L. Central without missing a beat.

[MattyHo4Life]

That's why he left? Correct me if I'm wrong... the Cardinals fired Jocketty. Yes?

So how did supposedly having the control over the draft lead to his departure if he left involuntarily?

I think you're being fed a bunch of misinformation that is commonly put out after two sides split up. Just like being mutual friends with spouses that divorce, the story dramatically depends on who's telling it.

They fired him because Jocketty wanted control of the draft, and DeWitt didn't want him to have control of the draft anymore. I've posted articles about the situations many times. They are out there to find. Just google Walt Jocketty and Jeff Luhnow.

[traderumor]

Brandon Phillips for Colby Rasmus :)No thanks to Rasmus. He's got attitude issues.

[Marc D]

Oquendo should be LaRussa's replacement. Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.


If the farm system isn't producing them, what does St Louis give up to build young players around Pujols?

[WMR]

They shouldn't have signed Holliday if they didn't already have the upcoming Pujols contract figured into the payroll.

[MattyHo4Life]

If the farm system isn't producing them, what does St Louis give up to build young players around Pujols?

Well...I think the farm system has produced at least half of the players on the 25 man roster.

[Marc D]

Well...I think the farm system has produced at least half of the players on the 25 man roster.


Going forward the prospects are there in sufficient numbers so the organization won't need to have guys like Miles, Lopez, Ryan, Schumaker and Feliz be everyday players?

[Spitball]

Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.

If the Mariners could trade Griffey and even thrive, the Cardinals can surely trade Pujols.

[Scrap Irony]

Dealing Pujols would be the smart move, but there's no way the Cardinals would do it. Can't, really, as the PR hit would be absolutely HUGE.

They're likely stuck with Pujols (not that anyone would mind that, certainly) and his gargantuan salary.

There will be little help from free agency due to Pujols' contract.

There's also apparently very little in the Cardinals pipeline.

At best, St. Louis will tread water, sending out a lineup that's short defensively and offensively and a pitching staff with three really good starters and a questionable pen.

Unless St. Louis can find four or five really cheap, really effective players between minor league free agency and suspects that go all monsterish, they're on the wrong side of the payroll blues.

[HokieRed]

Don't underestimate St. Louis.

[kaldaniels]

Don't underestimate St. Louis.

In what regard? Do tell.

[oregonred]

Don't underestimate St. Louis.

Yep, They will be solid through 2012 at minimum.

With a core of the Big 4 plus with Garcia looking to be a cheap #3 or worst a #4, they will be competitive and a threat for the next 2-3 seasons. Wainwright is below market through 2013. Carpenter is signed through 2011 with an option for 2012. They do have to have the Big 4 100% healthy to make a playoff run the next couple of seasons. The organizational dropoff is huge, but they've been living right on the injury front for the last couple of seasons. The Carpenter contract could have sunk them. That was quite a risk.

They will sign Pujols even if it is $25-30M a year with it backended and bump the payroll $10M by raising ticket prices $3-4 with a "Pujols tax". There is no way they will let him walk, not when they are drawing 40K a night.

The problem will be the back end of Holiday and Pujols contract, but they'll worry about that in 2015.

[fearofpopvol1]

Don't underestimate St. Louis.

This is kind of how I feel, but it will be interesting to see if Jocketty's departure will put a damper on this reputation. We don't know if JM as the GM can produce the way Jocketty did. Maybe he can? I don't know...I'm just saying, so far, he's a bit unproven.

I think the Cardinals can remain competitive going forward, just not sure they will be the favorites. But don't forget...the Central isn't exactly a top tier division! Everyone is (or will be) pretty much in rebuilding mode except the Reds and maybe the Brewers.

[HokieRed]

I think that organization has shown, through a long history, that it will solve its problems and continue to be very good. Even this season is a long way from over. Some of the posts in the thread suggest what a very nice dilemma the Cards actually have. When having to rebuild around Pujols is seen as a possible problem, my response is that's a very nice problem to have.

[oregonred]

I think that organization has shown, through a long history, that it will solve its problems and continue to be very good. Even this season is a long way from over. Some of the posts in the thread suggest what a very nice dilemma the Cards actually have. When having to rebuild around Pujols is seen as a possible problem, my response is that's a very nice problem to have.

Well put. Make that building around Wainwright + Carpenter + Hollliday + Pujols + Garcia.

[kaldaniels]

Well put. Make that building around Wainwright + Carpenter + Hollliday + Pujols + Garcia.

I just don't see the finances working out with that.

[TheNext44]

The problem that the Cards have is twofold. They have negative payflext moving forward, plus they have an empty farm system. Their payroll situation is so bad that they had to trade Ludwick, just to get Westbrook. They have never had even one of these problems over the last 15 years. That is the biggest difference between now and them for them. They have some very tough decisions ahead.

[TheNext44]

Well put. Make that building around Wainwright + Carpenter + Hollliday + Pujols + Garcia.

Carpenter, Holliday and Pujols are getting old, and already are on the decline.

Anyway, Carpenter is gone after 2011, and Wainwright has an expensive option. We all know about Pujols in 2012. Garcia has been very lucky this season, and while he projects to be a solid contributor in the future, it is doubtful he will be as productive as he has been this season.

The Cards are okay payroll wise next season. After that, it gets very difficult.

[oregonred]

I just don't see the finances working out with that.

2011 is in the bag with the Big 4 in hand. They can make it work through 2012 and maybe 2013 assuming Pujols contract is more backloaded. Carpenter's $15M falls off after 2012.

2013+ is a tough go, but they will be a factor through 2012. Take it to the bank.

[kaldaniels]

You can't take an ounce of credit away from the Cardinals for their selection of Albert Pujols, not a bit. But the fact is that their sucess over the past 10 years is solely based on that draft pick. It's not like they would have been dogmeat, but they dominated the Central during the 00's due to that one choice. The clock is ticking on the benefits of that pick however and they are headed back to the pack.

[kaldaniels]

2011 is in the bag with the Big 4 in hand. They can make it work through 2012 and maybe 2013 assuming Pujols contract is more backloaded. Carpenter's $15M falls off after 2012.

2013+ is a tough go, but they will be a factor through 2012. Take it to the bank.

No argument that the big 4 will be around, but they are going to squeeze out other guys due to their paychecks.

[oregonred]

Carpenter, Holliday and Pujols are getting old, and already are on the decline.

Anyway, Carpenter is gone after 2011, and Wainwright has an expensive option. We all know about Pujols in 2012. Garcia has been very lucky this season, and while he projects to be a solid contributor in the future, it is doubtful he will be as productive as he has been this season.

The Cards are okay payroll wise next season. After that, it gets very difficult.

Carpenter has a $12M club option for 2012. He's not going anywhere unless his arm falls off between now and October 2011 (which could happen).

Wainwright's option is a complete bargain, a 2-year $9M option for 2012 and $12M for 2013.

[oregonred]

No argument that the big 4 will be around, but they are going to squeeze out other guys due to their paychecks.

Yes, I think we agree. They have no room for error. The Big 4 must be 2 TOR arms, an all-star OF and one of the best 2-3 players in the game for it to have a chance to work out. Oh and all four have to be 100% healthy too. They are the Cards, they seem to live right...

[TheNext44]

Yes, I think we agree. They have no room for error. The Big 4 must be 2 TOR arms, an all-star OF and one of the best 2-3 players in the game for it to work out. Oh and all four have to be 100% healthy too.

They got that out of them this season, and are just hanging on to contention. It doesn't get any better next season, unless they increase payroll.

[Tornon]

Yes, I think we agree. They have no room for error. The Big 4 must be 2 TOR arms, an all-star OF and one of the best 2-3 players in the game for it to have a chance to work out. Oh and all four have to be 100% healthy too. They are the Cards, they seem to live right...

The problem is, even with the Cards "living right" or so you say this year, it is still a longshot for them to make the playoffs, and that's even with their big 4 not missing any time to injury

[Brutus]

They fired him because Jocketty wanted control of the draft, and DeWitt didn't want him to have control of the draft anymore. I've posted articles about the situations many times. They are out there to find. Just google Walt Jocketty and Jeff Luhnow.

I've did a whole lot of reading on the topic and nothing is anything more than regurgitated rumors from blogs and garage websites saying variations of the rumor. Some say he 'left,' some say he was fired. Some say he simply didn't like the promotion of Luhnow, others say he didn't get along. The common denominator is that I see absolutely nothing reputable, let alone concrete.

I stand by what I said: this strikes me as a 'two sides to every story' situation.

What I can't get past is that you don't even have your story straight. Not trying to get on your case, but first you said he "left" then when I pointed out he was fired, now you are saying he was "fired." So which is it?

I think you're believing what you want to believe on this. Unless you have a better link, everything I read only basically said there was a rift, but none were clear on Jocketty not still having the final call. And even then, I saw nothing I would stand behind. Since neither you, myself or anyone was behind the scenes, I doubt we have ever been given the real story.

I think it's a cozy story. It makes Cards' fans feel better to pin the lack of draft success solely on Jocketty. It's possible that he was not paying enough attention to scouting. It's possible his own valuations were off. It's also possible that he clashed with Luhnow, not because of a power struggle or differences in philosophy but simply because the two personalities and backrounds differed greatly. Heck, if I were Jocketty, I might be upset if someone were promoted with little or no experience and he wasn't my choice.

[Chip R]

I just don't see the finances working out with that.

I don't either. I've said this for a while that they don't have the money to keep everyone there. As great as Pujols is, they could be in a Catch-22 with him. If they keep him, they will have to pay him $20M a year at the very least. Of course if he wants to stay in StL as much as he says he does, he will only take a very small raise. But I don't think even Pujols is that altruistic. Unless StL raises the price of their tickets exponentially, they may not be able to affort to keep Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter, etc. And, according to these articles, they don't seem to be willing to spend a lot more money than what they have been. Look what happened to the Cubs. They signed Soriano and Zambrano to those huge contracts and now they can't move them. Fukodome's been a bust and Ramirez and Lee have fallen off a cliff performance wise.

If they trade him, it's going to be awful difficult to replace Pujols' numbers. Even if a premier 1st baseman like Votto or Fielder or Gonzalez replaced him, they haven't put up numbers as consistently as Pujols has. Plus, anything you got for him would look like a joke. Unless someone wanted to take him just for a couple of months, only a couple of teams could afford him. Of course the fans would go crazy but that only lasts for so long.

[MattyHo4Life]

I think it's a cozy story. It makes Cards' fans feel better to pin the lack of draft success solely on Jocketty. It's possible that he was not paying enough attention to scouting. It's possible his own valuations were off. It's also possible that he clashed with Luhnow, not because of a power struggle or differences in philosophy but simply because the two personalities and backrounds differed greatly. Heck, if I were Jocketty, I might be upset if someone were promoted with little or no experience and he wasn't my choice.

Well...it isn't supposed to be a cozy story or even anything against Jocketty. Did I say anything against Jocketty? What I said was that you can't give him sole credit for Rasmus. I don't know how much influence he had in drafting Rasmus...if any. I said that Jocketty left... because I don't like saying he was fired. I don't really think it's a cut and dry situation. When he left... it said that he was fired. It felt that way, but both sides said it was mutual. So when I say he left... you can assume that means that it was all his decision, but that's on you...not me. DeWitt wanted him out... so some say he was fired. It's Obvious that Jocketty wasn't happy since he had to share the drafting duties, so others say he left on his own. I think it was a little bit of both, so i'd prefer to say he left. There has to be a reason why Jocketty isn't a Cardinal anymore. So why do you think he was "fired"?

I also never said that Jocketty did bad with drafts. He did have some very good draft picks... Pujols, Drew, Ankiel, ect. His success seemed to be mostly top level guys, and then he filled the rest of the roster out through trades and free agency. It worked, but it cost a lot of money. The new guys seemed to put more focus on the whole draft, because we actually have younger players that were developed by our farms system. Ryan, Schumaker, Jay, Stavi, Craig, Motte, McClellen, Boggs, ect, they were all developed in the Cards system. Are they stars? Well, of course not, but they are all low cost players that help fill the roster out. I don't know when they were all drafted, so some of them may have been drafted under Jocketty.

You say I don't have my story straight. Well... I wasn't there. What I believe is that DeWitt wanted to go a different direction with the drafts. So he hired a Saber guy to help Jocketty out. Jocketty didn't like having to share the power. I don't blame him either. Jocketty had a great track record, and was one of the best GM's in the league. It's true that the Cardinals had the worst farm system in the league, but he did get them a World Series championship. I don't have any problem with the way Jocketty ran the Cardinals. I was ready for a change though, and like seeing more younger players come out of the system. I do like the way some of the more recent drafts have gone. I'm not sold on the new Cards GM. I think it's questionable how much of the drafts that he actually deserves credit for. Luhnow probably deserves most if not all of the credit. Mo is an ok GM, but I think he overpays in both free agency and in trades. I like the Feliz acquisition, because it helped the Cardinals. I don't like the Westbrook trade only because I think he could have gotten more for Ludwick. I guess it turned out ok, because Westbrook has pitched alright, and Jay has been hitting as good if not better than Ludwick. I just think he could have gotten more for Ludwick if he dangled him more before the deadline. Mo isn't the trader that Jocketty is. I doubt he ever will be. His best feature might just be that he lets someone else handle the draft. That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement now is it? Now if you want to think that is a cozy story...then go ahead.

Oh, and the reason I suggested you google the articles before I gave my opinion on is was that I wanted to know what you took from the articles. I'm not trying to be biased... just trying to discuss and issue and figure out what actually did happen the best we can.

[bucksfan2]

I don't either. I've said this for a while that they don't have the money to keep everyone there. As great as Pujols is, they could be in a Catch-22 with him. If they keep him, they will have to pay him $20M a year at the very least. Of course if he wants to stay in StL as much as he says he does, he will only take a very small raise. But I don't think even Pujols is that altruistic. Unless StL raises the price of their tickets exponentially, they may not be able to affort to keep Pujols, Holliday, Carpenter, etc. And, according to these articles, they don't seem to be willing to spend a lot more money than what they have been. Look what happened to the Cubs. They signed Soriano and Zambrano to those huge contracts and now they can't move them. Fukodome's been a bust and Ramirez and Lee have fallen off a cliff performance wise.

If they trade him, it's going to be awful difficult to replace Pujols' numbers. Even if a premier 1st baseman like Votto or Fielder or Gonzalez replaced him, they haven't put up numbers as consistently as Pujols has. Plus, anything you got for him would look like a joke. Unless someone wanted to take him just for a couple of months, only a couple of teams could afford him. Of course the fans would go crazy but that only lasts for so long.

There is no way I see the Cards trading or letting Pujols walk. You just don't do it unless he demands a trade. I was somewhat surprised when I noticed that Albert isn't all that old. He is only 30 now which means when they get together on a new contract he will be 32. Basically StL will have 3-4 more good years out of Albert when they do a new contract. I have a feeling that the back end of his contract will hurt the Cards, but that is off 5-6 years into the future.

The biggest thing right now with the Cards, and has been for over a decade, is getting production out of their role players. Jon Jay being ungodly hot against the Reds has killed them in their past 6 games. Seeing Rasmus and Schumaker hit grand slams to burry the Reds. You can't allow their role players to beat you. Their entire ballclub is constructed around their 3-4 hitters. I don't see that changing anytime in the future.

The payflex will be interesting to follow going into the future. What happens with Wainwright? Will they be unable to extend him? What happens when Carpenter's contract runs out in a couple of years? But then again I just doubt that the Cards won't be able to keep their core together thoughout the next 5-7 years. We aren't dealing with the Linder Reds here, the Cards will open up their pocket book and sign their players. Money really won't be an issue until the end of those deals. I don't think that payflex will play much of an issue into the Cards I think old father time will have a greater impact.

[Scrap Irony]

According to Cot's, the Cardinals have more than $70 million tied up in just 10 players for 2011. (This assumed Pujols' option is picked up for $16 million.) They also have three arbitration eligible guys.

The team, as is now constructed:

Lineup
C Molina
1B Pujols
2B Schumaker
SS Ryan
3B Freese
LF Holliday
CF Rasmus
RF Jay
Comment: Same as this year. Light on pop, but only slightly below average assuming TLR gets over himself and allow Rasmus to play. There is little in the pipeline for help. Jay doesn't project as good as he's been. Everyone else has been about normal, though Schumaker may rebound slightly.

Rotation
Carpenter
Wainwright
Garcia
Lohse
Hawksworth
Comment: Again, same as this year. At best. Lohse may be better, but Garcia's due a major comeuppance due to the massive innings jump and his x-FIP. FCB's favorite fifth starter looks to be back for 2011, and there's little on the horizon, though perhaps they'll gamble with Shelby Miller?

Bullpen
Franklin
Miller
McClellan
Motte
Kinney
Boggs
Open spot
Comment: Broken record time-- same as this year Some talented players, but there's no reason to think they'll be better than this year. Motte and the rest of the young relievers have pitched lights out this year and likely won't be appreciably better in 2011. Miller's option clicks in as well.

Bench
There isn't any.

[MattyHo4Life]

Colby Rasmus asked for a trade earlier this season?



http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/09/05/cryptic-colby-rasmus-hints-at-rift-between-him-tony-la-russa/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This story is getting even messier.

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100905&content_id=14320700&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

[Chip R]

There is no way I see the Cards trading or letting Pujols walk.

So if the Yankees or Red Sox offer him $25M a year to play with them, the Cardinals will offer him $26M? Or a bit less for more years? The guy is a great player but he's not getting any younger and he's had some significant injury problems that aren't going to get better over the next several years. I'm not sure the Cards can trade him either but they might just let him walk and they can always say that they couldn't compete against the big market teams. They will still have Holliday to build around and he's a fine player.

Of course the wild card in all this is La Russa. If he's going to stick around for a few more years, he's going to have a say who will stay and who will leave.

[oneupper]

This story is getting even messier.



http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100905&content_id=14320700&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

Sounds more like they're trying to clean it up, or at least sweep it under the rug.

[OnBaseMachine]

This story is getting even messier.



http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100905&content_id=14320700&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

Sounds to me like Rasmus is trying to cover it up now. LaRussa admitted yesterday that Rasmus asked for a trade this year and in 2009 too. Nice cover up attempt, but Rasmus wants out of St. Louis.

[MattyHo4Life]

So if the Yankees or Red Sox offer him $25M a year to play with them, the Cardinals will offer him $26M? Or a bit less for more years? The guy is a great player but he's not getting any younger and he's had some significant injury problems that aren't going to get better over the next several years. I'm not sure the Cards can trade him either but they might just let him walk and they can always say that they couldn't compete against the big market teams. They will still have Holliday to build around and he's a fine player.

Of course the wild card in all this is La Russa. If he's going to stick around for a few more years, he's going to have a say who will stay and who will leave.

LaRussa won't stay if Pujols isn't a Cardinal. Without Pujols, the Cardinals will be in 100% rebuild mode.

[mth123]

LaRussa won't stay if Pujols isn't a Cardinal. Without Pujols, the Cardinals will be in 100% rebuild mode.

I wonder about the Cards payflex. Penney comes off at $7.5 Million. I think Molina is the guy to deal to save 2 or 3 million and if Larussa walks and Oquendo takes over that could free another $4 Million or so. The Lohse deal seems like the one biting them. But Penney and Larussa walking would pay for shoring things up. Pujols, Carpenter, Garcia and Holiday will be back for virtually no increase in 2011. If they can just get the first year of Pujols extension for only a small annual increase, then Lohse comes off (freeing nearly $12 Million per year) and Pujols salary could bump up in the second year. Factoring in raises for Wainwright and Lohse and a few other small ones in 2011 they could have about $5 Million to spend on vets to fill a hole or two. If they could nab say a a Wigginton and a Kearns or something along those lines, they could improve the offense a little without dismantling the team. Molina at a combined $6 Million for his 2011 salary and option buy-out is a guy they should try to move. If he could bring back a middling arm (say a a Maloney type) and backfill with somebody like Buck or maybe Laird for a savings, it would be a good move IMO.

[MattyHo4Life]

Sounds more like they're trying to clean it up, or at least sweep it under the rug.

Did you read the whole article? You really think that article was trying to clean things up? From what I read, there are quotes from all over the place including LaRussa and Pujols. If that reporter was trying to clean things up, then he needs to try a little harder.

[oneupper]

Did you read the whole article? You really think that article was trying to clean things up? From what I read, there are quotes from all over the place including LaRussa and Pujols. If that reporter was trying to clean things up, then he needs to try a little harder.

Definitely a "damage control" piece. A little denial here, some qualifications there ("I thought he said it this weekend" ), etc.
This issue will be out of the media in a few days.

[traderumor]

Did you read the whole article? You really think that article was trying to clean things up? From what I read, there are quotes from all over the place including LaRussa and Pujols. If that reporter was trying to clean things up, then he needs to try a little harder.I also see it as a PR damage control where it is made pretty clear that it should be impossible to imagine a guy not wanting to play in baseball city.

[MattyHo4Life]

I also see it as a PR damage control where it is made pretty clear that it should be impossible to imagine a guy not wanting to play in baseball city.

Sounds to me more like a immature player that doesn't really know what he wants yet. It sounds like he was embarrassed when his comments were revealed to the public and his teammates. Colby is a bit of a mystery right now. He has been ridden hard by his manager, and he doesn't like it, so I think he wants to go somwhere else hoping that it won't be so hard. He has a lot of talent, but he has a lot of maturing to do.

[RichRed]

Sounds to me more like a immature player that doesn't really know what he wants yet. It sounds like he was embarrassed when his comments were revealed to the public and his teammates. Colby is a bit of a mystery right now. He has been ridden hard by his manager, and he doesn't like it, so I think he wants to go somwhere else hoping that it won't be so hard. He has a lot of talent, but he has a lot of maturing to do.

Yet it sounds like those comments were revealed to the public by none other than LaRussa. So who is it that needs to do the maturing?

[PuffyPig]

Sounds to me more like a immature player that doesn't really know what he wants yet. It sounds like he was embarrassed when his comments were revealed to the public and his teammates. Colby is a bit of a mystery right now. He has been ridden hard by his manager, and he doesn't like it, so I think he wants to go somwhere else hoping that it won't be so hard. He has a lot of talent, but he has a lot of maturing to do.


Why would a manager ride him hard, and try and change his approach at the plate, at a time when he was one of the best hitters in the league, at a premium position(CF)?

Since Rasmus early great start, he's had big problems.

I bet he'd play great for Baker. That's his job, get the most out of his players. Larussa has failed miserbly with Rasmus.

We'll take him off your hands.

[MattyHo4Life]

Why would a manager ride him hard, and try and change his approach at the plate, at a time when he was one of the best hitters in the league, at a premium position(CF)?

Since Rasmus early great start, he's had big problems.

I bet he'd play great for Baker. That's his job, get the most out of his players. Larussa has failed miserbly with Rasmus.

We'll take him off your hands.

Well, I think you are right about Baker. LaRussa and Baker are very different managers. LaRussa's one big weekness IMO is how he handles young players. The announcers this weekend stated that LaRussa learned to ride young players hard from Sparky Anderson. I don't know if that's true, but whatever TLR is doing with him doesn't seem to be working. I'm guessing that Sparky probably had a lot more success with younger players than Larussa has had.

Colby is unhappy, and that has to be affecting him at the plate. LaRussa works well with veteran players, but he just doesn't seem to be able to manage younger players as well.

[MattyHo4Life]

Yet it sounds like those comments were revealed to the public by none other than LaRussa. So who is it that needs to do the maturing?

I think both do. LaRussa has his problems. A player in his second year in the MLB really shouldn't be asking for a trade. I think Pujols is right about that.

[RichRed]

I think both do. LaRussa has his problems. A player in his second year in the MLB really shouldn't be asking for a trade. I think Pujols is right about that.

He may be right but he seemed to be angry, at least in part, because the player went public when that doesn't appear to have been the case. And now Pujols has gone public with his thoughts on the issue which I can't believe has helped matters in the clubhouse.

Strikes me as LaRussa stirring up a "Can you guys believe this young punk had the nerve to ask for a trade?" scenario, then trying to play the good guy card afterwards.

[MattyHo4Life]

He may be right but he seemed to be angry, at least in part, because the player went public when that doesn't appear to have been the case. And now Pujols has gone public with his thoughts on the issue which I can't believe has helped matters in the clubhouse.

Strikes me as LaRussa stirring up a "Can you guys believe this young punk had the nerve to ask for a trade?" scenario, then trying to play the good guy card afterwards.

Well, LaRussa does that a lot, and it turns a lot of people off. Pujols usually defends his manager, which may be why he made those comments without knowing Rasmus' side of the story.

[Scrap Irony]

Sounds to me more like a immature player that doesn't really know what he wants yet. It sounds like he was embarrassed when his comments were revealed to the public and his teammates. Colby is a bit of a mystery right now. He has been ridden hard by his manager, and he doesn't like it, so I think he wants to go somwhere else hoping that it won't be so hard. He has a lot of talent, but he has a lot of maturing to do.

Sounds to me like a manager that's being more immature than his player, who's trying to play the peacemaker in public.

Sad that this type of behavior is pretty well substantiated across TLR's entire managing career.

And it's not like he's picking on scrubs and fourth OFs. He's had some pretty serious spats with top-notch players.

[MattyHo4Life]

Sounds to me like a manager that's being more immature than his player, who's trying to play the peacemaker in public.

Sad that this type of behavior is pretty well substantiated across TLR's entire managing career.

And it's not like he's picking on scrubs and fourth OFs. He's had some pretty serious spats with top-notch players.

Well, Rasmus has showed many flashes of inmaturity throughout his short career. I'm not knocking him... I don't think he is in the wrong on this issue. There are so many cases where LaRussa has feuded with players throughout the years and the player always ends up being traded or released. IMO, Larussa has always been a problem in the clubhouse, but none of that seems to surface when you are winning.

[westofyou]

Colby is a zygote, Larussa is a HOF bound skipper, Rasmus is burning a bridge he's currently standing on.

He's foolish, he can't win this battle.

[MattyHo4Life]

Colby is a zygote, Larussa is a HOF bound skipper, Rasmus is burning a bridge he's currently standing on.

He's foolish, he can't win this battle.

True...he can't win the battle. Bigger Superstars before him have lost the same battle. Including, Rolen, Edmonds, and even Ozzie Smith.

[Scrap Irony]

I'd argue that if he gets dealt, Rasmus wins.

Rolen, IMO, won his duel with LaRussa because it allowed him to get dealt.

[MattyHo4Life]

I'd argue that if he gets dealt, Rasmus wins.

Rolen, IMO, won his duel with LaRussa because it allowed him to get dealt.

true, but also if Rasmus is a Cardinal in 2011 and Larussa isn't, he also wins.

[Scrap Irony]

Yeah, though I'd argue that TLR isn't going anywhere.

Pretty much no matter what.

[MattyHo4Life]

Yeah, though I'd argue that TLR isn't going anywhere.

Pretty much no matter what.

He has to retire sooner or later.

[westofyou]

I'd argue that if he gets dealt, Rasmus wins.

Rolen, IMO, won his duel with LaRussa because it allowed him to get dealt.

Rolen was vet, Rasmuss is a mere baseball infant, even if he gets dealt he has a stigma attached to a small career.

[MattyHo4Life]

Rolen was vet, Rasmuss is a mere baseball infant, even if he gets dealt he has a stigma attached to a small career.

right...i don't agree with a lot of what rasmus has been doing. players in their 2nd year don't demand a trade. i don't agree with larussa threatening to send him to AAA because he was late to a game either though.

[WMR]

right...i don't agree with a lot of what rasmus has been doing. players in their 2nd year don't demand a trade. i don't agree with larussa threatening to send him to AAA because he was late to a game either though.

Two little babies. :lol:

Now, how old is Rasmus and how old is King Haircut?

[westofyou]

right...i don't agree with a lot of what rasmus has been doing. players in their 2nd year don't demand a trade. i don't agree with larussa threatening to send him to AAA because he was late to a game either though.

You can bet that was just the trigger, guys who have been in the game as long as TR don't just pull the trigger on one late show.

[traderumor]

Again, this idea that any player would not want to play in baseball heaven in the post Curt Flood era is just a new concept that I cannot wrap my arms around :evil:

[MattyHo4Life]

LaRussa is batting Rasmus after Molina, and people wonder why Rasmus is unhappy. Why is Molina in the 5th spot after Holliday?

[oneupper]

LaRussa is batting Rasmus after Molina, and people wonder why Rasmus is unhappy. Why is Molina in the 5th spot after Holliday?

Because the pitcher is left-handed?

[Big Klu]

LaRussa is batting Rasmus after Molina, and people wonder why Rasmus is unhappy. Why is Molina in the 5th spot after Holliday?

The masterstroke will be when TLR bats his pitcher seventh, with Rasmus eighth and Ryan ninth.

"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!"

"Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

[MattyHo4Life]

Because the pitcher is left-handed?

Molina has a .552 OPS vs LHP.

[MattyHo4Life]

Two little babies. :lol:

Now, how old is Rasmus and how old is King Haircut?

Well...It's been rumored that some players refer to Rasmus as Luhnow's baby. The Cards announcers even mentioned that during the game tonight, and said that it isn't true. They pointed out that Jon Jay was also drafted by Jeff Luhnow, and nobody dislikes him. I don't know what is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

[WVRed]

Oquendo should be LaRussa's replacement. Pujols cannot be traded ever. You keep Pujols and just build young players around him.

I disagree with this for two reasons:

1. IF the Cardinals decide to go into all-out rebuilding mode, Pujols is by far the most talented trade chip. Players like Matt Holliday, Chris Carpenter, and Ryan Franklin would bring back some decent prospects, but Pujols would net a far bigger return and a better grade of talent.

2. If the Cardinals decide to go on a youth movement, would Albert want to sit tight for a couple of losing seasons until the talent around him starts to gel? My guess is Pujols would likely be campaigning for a trade to a contender every July within the next three seasons.

Losing Pujols would definitely have a PR blow for St Louis, but it is in a city where baseball is still king. Attendance may suffer for a year or two, but Busch would start selling out if the Cardinals started making noise with a young team.

[WMR]

Well...It's been rumored that some players refer to Rasmus as Luhnow's baby. The Cards announcers even mentioned that during the game tonight, and said that it isn't true. They pointed out that Jon Jay was also drafted by Jeff Luhnow, and nobody dislikes him. I don't know what is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

I guess my point is that while Rasmus has certainly acted very immaturely here, at least immaturity is something that typically goes along with being 21 years old... I would guess that being a professional athlete can exacerbate those tendencies in certain individuals...

TLR, on the other hand, comes off the poorest here, mainly because he should be the 'GROWN UP' in the situation and instead is right on Rasmus' level. Although to be fair, he has been this way his entire career, so expecting him to mellow or grow up with age is probably wishful thinking. (In other words, the dude has issues. *Newsflash* I know. :D Colby will very likely grow up and grow out of his. )

[MattyHo4Life]

I guess my point is that while Rasmus has certainly acted very immaturely here, at least immaturity is something that typically goes along with being 21 years old... I would guess that being a professional athlete can exacerbate those tendencies in certain individuals...

TLR, on the other hand, comes off the poorest here, mainly because he should be the 'GROWN UP' in the situation and instead is right on Rasmus' level. Although to be fair, he has been this way his entire career, so expecting him to mellow or grow up with age is probably wishful thinking. (In other words, the dude has issues. *Newsflash* I know. :D Colby will very likely grow up and grow out of his. )

I can't disagree with anything you said here. I don't agree with everything Rasmus has said or has done, but I also think he will grow out of it. I have concerns with a manager that has a laundry list of players that have a problem with him. Especially when you look at that list and you see names like Scott Rolen on it.

[bucksfan2]

Rolen was vet, Rasmuss is a mere baseball infant, even if he gets dealt he has a stigma attached to a small career.

There are plenty of young guys with attitude problems. If you have talent you will get chance after chance after chance. When guys like Milton Bradley and Carl Evert get multiple chances talent wins.

There are about 29 other teams who would jump at the chance to trade for Rasmus. Rasmus may just be a pup, but he is a talent pup. We have all see what superstars can do to managers in the Hanley Ramirez-Gonzales incident. LaRussa has a lot of pull in this situation but long term who has more value?

[REDREAD]

Rolen was vet, Rasmuss is a mere baseball infant, even if he gets dealt he has a stigma attached to a small career.

If Rasmus keeps hitting like he can, it won't matter.

Brandon Phillips was considered a bad attitude-troublemaker-head case in Cleveland.. Now he's making something like 10 million/year. He's doing fine.

LaRussa can be a jerk and get away with it.. sure.. He can run Rasmus out of town if he wants to, but the other 29 teams are not going to care. They know Rasmus can play.

It seems like Rasmus is playing his role properly now.. Saying he loves StL and he's ok with whatever LaRussa says.. I don't know what more can be asked of him.. He's handled it well, considering that management backstabbed him by revealing his trade request.

Anyhow, I hope he is traded so he can be happy.. It stinks to work at a place that you hate, for a manager that is a pain.. At least he's getting paid well and has Free Agency (or LaRussa's retirement) to look forward to.