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View Full Version : How much longer do we keep sending Harang out there?



RFS62
09-06-2010, 04:15 PM
How much more slack do we cut him?

CTA513
09-06-2010, 04:16 PM
Until the Reds get some stones.

OnBaseMachine
09-06-2010, 04:17 PM
He shouldn't have pitched today. He was bad earlier in this season, struggled in his two rehab starts, and struggled in his last start as well. The offense spots you a 4-0 lead and you respond by walking the opposing pitcher in Coors Field? Goodness. Continuing to run Aaron Harang out there every fifth day is a good way to let the Cardinals back in the race. Failing to acquire another starter at the deadline could come back to haunt.

Caveat Emperor
09-06-2010, 04:20 PM
He threw his last pitch as a Red today, I imagine.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 04:20 PM
He shouldn't have pitched today. He was bad earlier in this season, struggled in his two rehab starts, and struggled in his last start as well. The offense spots you a 4-0 lead and you respond by walking the opposing pitcher in Coors Field? Goodness. Continuing to run Aaron Harang out there every fifth day is a good way to let the Cardinals back in the race. Failing to acquire another starter at the deadline could come back to haunt.

It's Coors Field and this is as tight a strike zone as you'll see in baseball.

Yes, he is getting knocked around real good today. But pitching in Coors Field is hard enough, let alone having a tight zone. Heck, the Reds are knocking around Ubaldo too, so it's not just Harang on this day.

CTA513
09-06-2010, 04:21 PM
He threw his last pitch as a Red today, I imagine.

I doubt it unless they cut him.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 04:23 PM
He threw his last pitch as a Red today, I imagine.

Last start probably, but he'll be kept in middle relief.

OnBaseMachine
09-06-2010, 04:23 PM
It's Coors Field and this is as tight a strike zone as you'll see in baseball.

Yes, he is getting knocked around real good today. But pitching in Coors Field is hard enough, let alone having a tight zone. Heck, the Reds are knocking around Ubaldo too, so it's not just Harang on this day.

I'm tired of the excuses for Harang. He's been one of my favorite Reds but he clearly lacks the stuff to get big league hitters out at this point.

There's no excuse for walking a pitcher with a 4-0 lead.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 04:25 PM
I'm tired of the excuses for Harang. He's been one of my favorite Reds but he clearly lacks the stuff to get big league hitters out at this point.

There's no excuse for walking a pitcher with a 4-0 lead.

I don't know about that. Every pitch he threw was right, right in or around the zone. Ubaldo had an excellent at-bat.

I agree his stuff doesn't look like it once did. Today wasn't a good day for him, make no mistake. But the circumstances made it far worse.

KronoRed
09-06-2010, 04:30 PM
Replace him with who? Maloney? Volquez? in the end it will be the same thing, the O will need to score 7 to 10 runs to win.

camisadelgolf
09-06-2010, 04:34 PM
But his peripherals are very good this year!

guttle11
09-06-2010, 04:44 PM
How convenient that Volquez threw today in the minors, and can return tomorrow...

Scrap Irony
09-06-2010, 04:57 PM
I don't know about that. Every pitch he threw was right, right in or around the zone. Ubaldo had an excellent at-bat.

I agree his stuff doesn't look like it once did. Today wasn't a good day for him, make no mistake. But the circumstances made it far worse.

He walked the pitcher.

I don't care if the strike zone is four inches wide, you can't walk the pitcher.

I could care less if a pitcher hits the ball and happens to knock it somewhere hard. You've got four runs and no excuse.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 05:22 PM
He walked the pitcher.

I don't care if the strike zone is four inches wide, you can't walk the pitcher.

I could care less if a pitcher hits the ball and happens to knock it somewhere hard. You've got four runs and no excuse.

I don't subscribe to that. If you're up there with a bat in your hands, you're dangerous. Anyone can go up there and, if they connect to a mid 90's fastball, hit a home run.

I think the whole "you can't walk the pitcher" cliche is overused. It's easy to say throw strikes, but go ahead and groove one and if they hit it 400 feet, you might feel differently.

Heck, just last week, people were going balistic in the game thread about surrendering hits to the Brewers' pitchers (of which Gallardo is a .300 hitter with 4 homers in 60 at-bats). Can't walk the pitcher. Can't give up hits to the pitcher. Heck, sometimes I wonder if fans would like to even make pitches to the pitcher. Perhaps we just tell the umpire to skip their turn in the lineup.

KoryMac5
09-06-2010, 05:37 PM
I would rather have Maloney on the bump than Harang at this point. While Maloney isn't a long term answer he is good for at least 6 innings. Harang isn't even good enough for 3 at this point in his career. For the Reds to be contenders the pitching has to get to the sixth inning so we go turn it over to the missle crew in the bullpen.

deltachi8
09-06-2010, 05:44 PM
makes ya kinda wish a SP had been acquired in July/August.

mth123
09-06-2010, 05:51 PM
5 Spots in the rotation. Arroyo, Cueto and Wood seem solid. Bailey is a shaky 4th. After that somebody has to pitch. Its been Harang's turn to see what he could do. The results were predictable but the alternatives aren't better.

Reds should have started stretching Chapman back out when it became obvious that Harang and Leake were toast and no starter could be added at the deadline. They could still get him stretched back out by October if they commit to it next time through the rotation. Let him go a couple today. Go three next time. Then maybe 5 the next time and he'll be ready to go six by play-off time.

RBA
09-06-2010, 05:52 PM
Cut him and don't give him any World Series shares.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 05:53 PM
5 Spots in the rotation. Arroyo, Cueto and Wood seem solid. Bailey is a shaky 4th. After that somebody has to pitch. Its been Harang's turn to see what he could do. The results were predictable but the alternatives aren't better.

Reds should have started stretching Chapman back out when it became obvious that Harang and Leake were toast and no starter could be added at the deadline. They could still get him stretched back out by October if they commit to it next time through the rotation. Let him go a couple today. Go three next time. Then maybe 5 the next time and he'll be ready to go six by play-off time.

Disagree completely. I think turning Chapman into a reliever and then several weeks later turning him back into a starter is a bad, bad idea.

mth123
09-06-2010, 05:55 PM
Disagree completely. I think turning Chapman into a reliever and then several weeks later turning him back into a starter is a bad, bad idea.

You may be right. Just no good options right now and on second thought, I wouldn't risk the injury. The 5th spot won't be needed come play-off time, so maybe Maloney is the best option now.

Brutus
09-06-2010, 05:57 PM
You may be right. Just no good options right now and on second thought, I wouldn't risk the injury. The 5th spot won't be needed come play-off time, so maybe Maloney is the best option now.

Yep, that's the thing. The 5th starter will matter only for the regular season. If the Reds get to the playoffs, it won't be an issue by then.

HokieRed
09-06-2010, 05:58 PM
Got to be Volquez or LeCure in the 5 spot.

mth123
09-06-2010, 06:03 PM
Yep, that's the thing. The 5th starter will matter only for the regular season. If the Reds get to the playoffs, it won't be an issue by then.

Agreed, OTOH, if he pitches well, spots 2 through 4 aren't really sure things and he could be more than a 5. I still think its not worth risking an injury. I'm liking Wood more and more and Cueto is OK, but both will be well beyond charted waters by the time October rolls around so who knows if they hold up or fade. Bailey really needs to step up. I worry that going too long with Wood will put him at risk as well.

steig
09-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Disagree completely. I think turning Chapman into a reliever and then several weeks later turning him back into a starter is a bad, bad idea.

i agree, the Reds can't just turn Chapman into a starter at this point in the season. This will have to wait until the end of the year so he can work on developing a third pitch.

I really want to see the Reds release Harang at this point but with September rosters it isn't really needed. Stick him in the bullpen and use him in mop up situations if he can do any clean up. Volquez, Maloney, or Lecure can do better than Harang at this point. If the team is dedicated to winning this year they can't let Harang start every 5th day and just plan on loosing.

HokieRed
09-06-2010, 06:19 PM
Agreed, OTOH, if he pitches well, spots 2 through 4 aren't really sure things and he could be more than a 5. I still think its not worth risking an injury. I'm liking Wood more and more and Cueto is OK, but both will be well beyond charted waters by the time October rolls around so who knows if they hold up or fade. Bailey really needs to step up. I worry that going too long with Wood will put him at risk as well.

Agree on Wood. Got to go to Volquez or LeCure now, hold Maloney as possible replacement for Wood after a couple more starts. Arroyo, Cueto, Wood, Bailey, Volquez or LeCure. Maloney to be spotted if necessary. Today's loss is huge, much bigger than yesterday's IMO.

OldXOhio
09-06-2010, 06:29 PM
Volquez will be given the next few starts to show his stuff.

hebroncougar
09-06-2010, 06:36 PM
Harang to 60 Day DL, shoulder fatigue. Put another OF on the 40 man. Bring Leake back, let him, Lecure, and Volquez throw in the 5 spot.

oneupper
09-06-2010, 06:41 PM
Next start for this spot is vs. Pittsburgh at home. I don't like Harang for that game.

SirFelixCat
09-06-2010, 06:49 PM
Next start for this spot is vs. Pittsburgh at home. I don't like Harang for for any game.

FYP

Eric_the_Red
09-06-2010, 06:53 PM
My vote would be to release him. I have zero confidence in his ability to allow less than a run an inning these days (or very close to it). I'll take my chances with Volquez, LeCure or Maloney first.

kaldaniels
09-06-2010, 06:57 PM
My vote would be to release him. I have zero confidence in his ability to allow less than a run an inning these days (or very close to it). I'll take my chances with Volquez, LeCure or Maloney first.

Mind as well keep him around to mop up. Can you suggest one net-gain that would come from releasing him today?

WVRedsFan
09-06-2010, 06:58 PM
Cut him and don't give him any World Series shares.Then watch him sign with the Cardinals, get the Dave Duncan magic and beat the dickens out of us for the next three years.

No. He was the only shining light on this team's pitching staff for a long time. If we're that heartless, I may have to change teams.

The Operator
09-06-2010, 06:59 PM
Then watch him sign with the Cardinals, get the Dave Duncan magic and beat the dickens out of us for the next three years.

No. He was the only shining light on this team's pitching staff for a long time. If we're that heartless, I may have to change teams.Yea, releasing him just to save playoff share money is something Marge Schott would do.

Eric_the_Red
09-06-2010, 07:00 PM
Mind as well keep him around to mop up. Can you suggest one net-gain that would come from releasing him today?

A roster spot occupied by someone not named Aaron Harang?

Sorry, but I think he is beyond done. It is a shame, because he meant so much to the franchise while the team was not successful. I would love for him to be a part of their success this year, but I just don't see what he offers this team.

mth123
09-06-2010, 07:01 PM
Mind as well keep him around to mop up. Can you suggest one net-gain that would come from releasing him today?

Well it would open a spot on the 40 man roster w/o risking losing anyone we'd want to keep. If the team sees a guy on the waiver wire or a non-roster minor leaguer who could help...

That said, I think he deserves to finish the year with the team. Other chaff to cut loose to open a roster spot.

kbrake
09-06-2010, 07:05 PM
Regardless of how frustrated it was watching him struggle today I can't help but just feel awful for Harang. That guy gave us some great years and you could tell by the look on his face today he know's its coming to an end for him. As frustrated as we all get as fans I can't imagine how it is for a player to know your career is coming to an end.

WVRedsFan
09-06-2010, 07:13 PM
That said, I think he deserves to finish the year with the team. Other chaff to cut loose to open a roster spot.Exactly. Besides, I see lots of pitchers with statistics worse than Harang on this team. Fisher, Owings (no longer here), Volquez, and Homer have performed about the same. Of course, "they're young," but that won't be a factor come playoff time if we indeed get there.

Harang is not an old man and knew how to pitch just two years ago. I wouldn't take the club option with him, but cutting him when the guy was the only pitcher who looked like one for so long. I think he can be fixed, but if not, treat him with dignity.

reds44
09-06-2010, 07:17 PM
We need a roster spot on the 40 man roster for an OFer, at this point it's either put Edmonds on the 60 day DL or DFA Harang.

mth123
09-06-2010, 07:22 PM
Exactly. Besides, I see lots of pitchers with statistics worse than Harang on this team. Fisher, Owings (no longer here), Volquez, and Homer have performed about the same. Of course, "they're young," but that won't be a factor come playoff time if we indeed get there.

Harang is not an old man and knew how to pitch just two years ago. I wouldn't take the club option with him, but cutting him when the guy was the only pitcher who looked like one for so long. I think he can be fixed, but if not, treat him with dignity.

Treat him with dignity for sure, but his arm just isn't the same. No fixing IMO w/o discovering some injury and doing something medical.

He's had three seasons in a row of fairly light workload so if all those innings in 2004 - 2007 are the problem, rest won't do it and the arm won't bounce back on its own. We may see a Pavano-like resurgence at some point, but it won't happen in September or in Cincy.

BCubb2003
09-06-2010, 07:23 PM
Harang has had an unusual career. When he came over from the A's, he was kind of a nondescript name in the fire sale trades. He wasn't flashy or dominating, but he started to quietly lead the league in strikeouts. He was even a Cy Young contender. The struggles the last couple of years have overshadowed that. But he's not a bum.

mth123
09-06-2010, 07:25 PM
We need a roster spot on the 40 man roster for an OFer, at this point it's either put Edmonds on the 60 day DL or DFA Harang.

Not really, I won't miss Danny Rae. Leake could go on the 60 day as well. If the Reds aren't going to recall Burton, they probably non-tender him anyway because they won't go to arb with an 850K minor leaguer, so he could be removed. Lots of options to make room right now.

kaldaniels
09-06-2010, 07:26 PM
A roster spot occupied by someone not named Aaron Harang?

Sorry, but I think he is beyond done. It is a shame, because he meant so much to the franchise while the team was not successful. I would love for him to be a part of their success this year, but I just don't see what he offers this team.

If a would-be move came along that forced the Reds hand in this, sure its an option. But I'm not cutting him tommorrow just because.

mth123
09-06-2010, 07:27 PM
Harang has had an unusual career. When he came over from the A's, he was kind of a nondescript name in the fire sale trades. He wasn't flashy or dominating, but he started to quietly lead the league in strikeouts. He was even a Cy Young contender. The struggles the last couple of years have overshadowed that. But he's not a bum.

Nope. Just a guy who used to be good and now has an arm in no condition to pitch to major leaguers. Kind of like Bob Feller, Tom Seaver or Bob Gibson in that way.

Jpup
09-06-2010, 07:30 PM
I think you guys are being awfully hard on Harang. He certainly did not cost the Reds the game today. The Rockies are pretty good and the Reds offense is a little suspect right now.

Something is wrong with Aaron. He's a better pitcher than what he has shown this year. You don't just go from where he was to where he is at for no reason. Chapman looked bad today too. Should the Reds cut him?

I'm not saying that they should keep running him out there, but I don't see Sam LeCure as a better option. I would probably give Maloney the spot right now.

kaldaniels
09-06-2010, 07:34 PM
He's thrown a quality start in 5 of his last 9 starts for the Reds. Look it up. But something is wrong.

REDblooded
09-06-2010, 07:41 PM
He hasn't been good since he was used in the short-long extra innings game vs. San Diego last year... He wasn't good before he went on the dl, he wasn't good in his rehab assignment, and he isn't good now. He needs to be out of the rotation.

Redsfan320
09-06-2010, 07:47 PM
In April I said he was quote "done". Everyone jumped all over me. And yet now- here we are.

320

Jpup
09-06-2010, 07:48 PM
In April I said he was quote "done". Everyone jumped all over me. And yet now- here we are.

320


He's still not done. He looks like he is hurt to me.

mth123
09-06-2010, 07:50 PM
He's thrown a quality start in 5 of his last 9 starts for the Reds. Look it up. But something is wrong.

Yeah, this reminds me a lot of the demise of Denny Neagle. He was a good pitcher who ran into some problems. When he came back he struggled and was eventually shut-down and put on a routine "to rebuild arm strength." He was able to continue for a few years, but was basically a ham and egger from that point and never got back what he once had.

My theory is that sometimes there can be permanent damage that limits strength w/o a specific injury or any acute pain. Lack of arm strength usually results in poor command and as the innings pile-up the velocity drops. Harang has had enough stretches of not pitching the last few years that we haven't seen a huge drop in velocity, but he serves up more meatballs than Olive Garden these days and I think reduced command is the culprit. IIRC, I heard him say in Spring that his arm hasn't felt the same in years. He may have even alluded to the relief outing in SD but my memory is a little fuzzy so that could be wrong.

VR
09-06-2010, 08:27 PM
He is really an exceptional pitcher at getting 2 strikes on guys. His loss of velocity, compounded with his loss of control....means that 2 strikes is no longer a pitcher's pitch w/ Harang. He just can. not. put. guys. away.

Reds1
09-06-2010, 08:49 PM
I hope that's it. I'm sorry to say

bucksfan2
09-06-2010, 09:08 PM
As a pitcher I don't want to see Harang on the mound again this season. He just doesn't have it. His 4 run 3rd inning was a killer for the Reds today. I don't want to see him start and don't want to see him in long relief. I think the best thing to do is keep him around if they make the post season but you can't keep him on the active roster anymore.

Reds1
09-06-2010, 09:33 PM
In April I said he was quote "done". Everyone jumped all over me. And yet now- here we are.

320

don't include me on everyone. Maybe you should say "most":D

Redsfan320
09-06-2010, 10:59 PM
don't include me on everyone. Maybe you should say "most"

Figure of speech. However, there certainly were a few, so okay, "most". :D

320

VR
09-06-2010, 11:49 PM
Aaron is a mess, for sure. But to think this is the 'horse' that anchored the Reds through some tough years.....it's a shame he's not at the center of their winning ways, he deserves to be.

savafan
09-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Harang is trending #5 in the US on Twitter right now.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/the-reds-may-have-already-run-out-of-patience-with-aaron-harang.php?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


Including today's loss to the Rockies, Aaron Harang has allowed seven runs -- five earned -- with a lousy 3/6 K/BB ratio over his first two starts since coming off the disabled list. After failing to make it through five innings in either outing, Reds manager Dusty Baker told John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer that he will soon make a decision about whether Harang will remain in the starting rotation.

"Yeah, pretty soon," Baker said. "We'll discuss things and see. We can't have these short outings. That puts pressure on my bullpen for the ensuing days after that."

savafan
09-07-2010, 12:15 AM
In April I said he was quote "done". Everyone jumped all over me. And yet now- here we are.

320

I was right there with you. I thought he looked bad in spring training, and said so.

savafan
09-07-2010, 12:16 AM
Next start for this spot is vs. Pittsburgh at home. I don't like Harang for that game.

Fay says he's expecting Volquez to get that start.

The Operator
09-07-2010, 12:49 AM
Fay says he's expecting Volquez to get that start.Pick your poison, I suppose.

Who knows, maybe Volquez will have it together now. I hope so.

REDblooded
09-07-2010, 01:12 AM
Aaron is a mess, for sure. But to think this is the 'horse' that anchored the Reds through some tough years.....it's a shame he's not at the center of their winning ways, he deserves to be.

Agree 100%... Only reason I wouldn't cut him at this point... He deserves to be around in some form in the playoffs... Due solely to what he meant for this club in the past... However, Counting on him to provide meaningful innings for the club at this point is delirious. He can't put hitters away.

Edd Roush
09-07-2010, 10:53 AM
Agree 100%... Only reason I wouldn't cut him at this point... He deserves to be around in some form in the playoffs... Due solely to what he meant for this club in the past... However, Counting on him to provide meaningful innings for the club at this point is delirious. He can't put hitters away.

I completely agree. It was just the recent past when I would only go to a home game when Aaron Harang was the scheduled starter. If Bruce is ready tomorrow, there is no real need for Harang's roster spot for an outfielder and we can allow him to chill in the bullpen through September and mop up during some blow outs. I know you can't afford to be sentimental when you are a manager, but Aaron seems to be a really good clubhouse guy and if we don't need his roster spot, there is no real harm in letting him enjoy the good times when he was a horse during the bad times.

SirFelixCat
09-07-2010, 10:56 AM
Pick your poison, I suppose.

Who knows, maybe Volquez will have it together now. I hope so.

Volkie has upside. We all figure that he'll find his control eventually. This is usually the case w/ pitchers having undergone TJ surgery. So at least, if he does find it, he can be a stud. Harang, at this point, has little to no upside. Sad, honestly, but true :(

lollipopcurve
09-07-2010, 11:13 AM
If not Volquez (who should get the first shot), go with Lecure or Maloney, depending on the matchup. Both those guys throw strikes and have a good shot of getting into the 6th inning as a result.

Captain Hook
09-07-2010, 02:30 PM
At this point I'm wondering if Harang will have much of a career in baseball past this season.I'm sure some team short on pitching and looking for a 4th or 5th starter(like the Reds were doing ever year not so long ago) will give him a shot next year.I wish him luck with that team but if he can't do any better then what he did in AAA recently and what we are now seeing him do against big league competition, he'll be finished.I hope I'm wrong and that some of these stats that keep getting thrown out there indicating that Harang still has something in the tank are right but my eyes tell me he could be done.

VR
09-07-2010, 02:35 PM
At this point I'm wondering if Harang will have much of a career in baseball past this season.I'm sure some team short on pitching and looking for a 4th or 5th starter(like the Reds were doing ever year not so long ago) will give him a shot next year.I wish him luck with that team but if he can't do any better then what he did in AAA recently and what we are now seeing him do against big league competition, he'll be finished.I hope I'm wrong and that some of these stats that keep getting thrown out there indicating that Harang still has something in the tank are right but my eyes tell me he could be done.

I'd be mildly surprised if he was anywhere but LA or SD next year.

GAC
09-07-2010, 03:40 PM
I could see Aaron possibly resurrecting his career (elsewhere) in the BP.

Captain Hook
09-07-2010, 04:08 PM
I'd be mildly surprised if he was anywhere but LA or SD next year.

I can't imagine that two teams looking to be serious contenders next season would look Aarons way for starting help.Like GAC mentioned he may have a chance in the BP in one of those cities as a long reliever or even for some minor league dept.If he still wants to start he'll likely have to go to a rebuilding team in the NL.I'm sure those are the two places he'd prefer to be but beggars can't be choosers.I could see Arizona or Houston as being possible fits for AH to have a chance to start.Nothing will be guaranteed next season though.

Griffey012
09-07-2010, 04:12 PM
At this point I'm wondering if Harang will have much of a career in baseball past this season.I'm sure some team short on pitching and looking for a 4th or 5th starter(like the Reds were doing ever year not so long ago) will give him a shot next year.I wish him luck with that team but if he can't do any better then what he did in AAA recently and what we are now seeing him do against big league competition, he'll be finished.I hope I'm wrong and that some of these stats that keep getting thrown out there indicating that Harang still has something in the tank are right but my eyes tell me he could be done.

I could see STL taking a flyer on him and see if he could have some resurrection under Duncan.

bucksfan2
09-07-2010, 04:23 PM
I can't imagine that two teams looking to be serious contenders next season would look Aarons way for starting help.Like GAC mentioned he may have a chance in the BP in one of those cities as a long reliever or even for some minor league dept.If he still wants to start he'll likely have to go to a rebuilding team in the NL.I'm sure those are the two places he'd prefer to be but beggars can't be choosers.I could see Arizona or Houston as being possible fits for AH to have a chance to start.Nothing will be guaranteed next season though.

The Padres will be in a very difficult position going into next season. There is hope but can the team continue to play above their heads? What do they do with Gonzales and Bell?

Arron Harng has made roughly $40.65M over the course of his career with another $2M buyout looking likely after this season. I could see him jump at getting a minor league deal to pitch in SD because that is his home town. I think Harang will have his chance over the next couple of years to prove himself on minor league deals.

Sea Ray
09-07-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm more cocerned with who to pitch out of the 5th spot than what Aaron is doing next yr. I think we can all agree we don't want to see him out there 5 days from now but who do we replace him with?

I think LeCure is contributing nicely as the long man so I don't want to see him removed from that role. That leaves Maloney, Volquez and Leake who should be off the DL soon from his phantom injury.

I'd like to see Leake back out there provided he looks good in his bullpen sessions. If he has the bite back on his two seamer then I think he can really help us down the stretch. If he really does have a dead arm then my #2 choice would be Volquez.