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camisadelgolf
09-09-2010, 02:23 PM
Ramon Hernandez and Arthur Rhodes will be type A free agents this winter. Should the Reds offer them arbitration? If arbitration is accepted, both could be retained on one-year contracts with potentially considerable raises. If arbitration is declined, there's a decent chance the Reds could get draft pick compensation for each player. What would you do? Why?

Jpup
09-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Ramon Hernandez and Arthur Rhodes will be type A free agents this winter. Should the Reds offer them arbitration? If arbitration is accepted, both could be retained on one-year contracts with potentially considerable raises. If arbitration is declined, there's a decent chance the Reds could get draft pick compensation for each player. What would you do? Why?

Probably not because they would accept.

bucksfan2
09-09-2010, 02:28 PM
Doesn't Ramon have an option in his contract? If you pay the buyout fee I don't think you are allowed to offer arb then.

I want Ramon back. Let him hold down the fort while Mes gets ready in AAA. As for Rhodes I think his time has come. I don't think you can offer arb because it will likely be the best deal he will get.

camisadelgolf
09-09-2010, 02:29 PM
Probably not because they would accept.
Would that be so bad? If they accept, each player would be had on one-year, non-guaranteed contracts, which is ideal considering their ages. It's also worth noting that 'non-guaranteed contract' means that either could be cut with the Reds owing them only 30 or 45 days' worth of termination pay, depending on how early they're cut next year.

camisadelgolf
09-09-2010, 02:30 PM
Doesn't Ramon have an option in his contract? If you pay the buyout fee I don't think you are allowed to offer arb then.

I want Ramon back. Let him hold down the fort while Mes gets ready in AAA. As for Rhodes I think his time has come. I don't think you can offer arb because it will likely be the best deal he will get.
Hernandez had a vesting option. If he played 120+ games, his contract for 2011 would have been guaranteed. However, he won't reach enough playing time, so he's due to become a free agent.

OesterPoster
09-09-2010, 02:31 PM
Just Ramon, IMHO. I think Rhodes can be replaced in-house with other lefties (Joseph/Bray) or signing a cheaper lefty from outside the organization. With the volatile nature of relievers, I just don't see how he can come close to replicating what he did this year.

Ramon, I think is important to have back as a Spanish speaking catcher for Chapman, if he's in the rotation. I'd like to have Mes start out the year in AAA anyway.

fearofpopvol1
09-09-2010, 02:42 PM
I would like to keep Ramon...I don't anticipate that Mez will be ready to start at the show next April. So Hernandez is needed.

Rhodes...I'd be concerned he would accept arb at 40. Maybe not though?

HeatherC1212
09-09-2010, 03:02 PM
Won't they both just be free agents? I think both of them have been around too long to still be dealing with that arbitration stuff. They just sign new deals now or in Ramon's case, he'll have his option accepted or declined by the Reds or by his PAs. What am I missing here?! :confused:

backbencher
09-09-2010, 03:06 PM
Hernandez had a vesting option. If he played 120+ games, his contract for 2011 would have been guaranteed. However, he won't reach enough playing time, so he's due to become a free agent.

Is that right? I thought that it was a club option that vested at 120 games (that is, under 120 games, the club has an option; at 120 games, Hernandez's 2011 salary is guaranteed). I could be wrong, though.

I'm voting yes on both. Rhodes has been overused, but the relief market can get pricey. I'd rather the Reds take the risk on overpaying him than go without. If he declines, so be it -- but I think that it is very likely that he accepts.

With Ramon, I buy into the idea that the staff can use a Spanish-speaking catcher, there is no replacement in the organization, and I like the idea of a catching timeshare.

RedsManRick
09-09-2010, 03:10 PM
I voted neither. Both are nice guys to have around, but both would likely be overpaid if brought back at an arb salary. Teams have been much more cautious in recent years signing Type A players, particularly those that aren't stars. I don't think the market would be great for either and them accepting arb is a strong likelihood.

Sea Ray
09-09-2010, 03:24 PM
Hernandez had a vesting option. If he played 120+ games, his contract for 2011 would have been guaranteed. However, he won't reach enough playing time, so he's due to become a free agent.

I believe the 120 games just makes it mandatory for the Reds to pick it up. I'm sure they can still pick it up at their "option".

The decision on Hernandez pretty much comes down to this: do you want him back at $3.25mill? You sure don't turn that down and offer him arbitration.

To those 11 folks who want to offer him arbitration: why? Do you really think an arbitrator will give him less than $3.25 mill?

Brutus
09-09-2010, 03:31 PM
Would that be so bad? If they accept, each player would be had on one-year, non-guaranteed contracts, which is ideal considering their ages. It's also worth noting that 'non-guaranteed contract' means that either could be cut with the Reds owing them only 30 or 45 days' worth of termination pay, depending on how early they're cut next year.

I'm nearly positive this is not accurate. Any contract--any--that is terminated during the season is due the entire amount for the rest of the season. The 30 or 45 days only applies to being cut during spring training. Once any arbitration eligible-player agrees to arbitration, he is considered signed at that point and all the same rights and obligations apply to his contract.

Sea Ray
09-09-2010, 03:34 PM
I'm nearly positive this is not accurate. Any contract--any--that is terminated during the season is due the entire amount for the rest of the season. The 30 or 45 days only applies to being cut during spring training. Once any arbitration eligible-player agrees to arbitration, he is considered signed at that point and all the same rights and obligations apply to his contract.

I think you're correct. You have to cut them in Spring Training to get out from paying them for the whole year

Brutus
09-09-2010, 03:34 PM
Is that right? I thought that it was a club option that vested at 120 games (that is, under 120 games, the club has an option; at 120 games, Hernandez's 2011 salary is guaranteed). I could be wrong, though.

I'm voting yes on both. Rhodes has been overused, but the relief market can get pricey. I'd rather the Reds take the risk on overpaying him than go without. If he declines, so be it -- but I think that it is very likely that he accepts.

With Ramon, I buy into the idea that the staff can use a Spanish-speaking catcher, there is no replacement in the organization, and I like the idea of a catching timeshare.

That was my understanding of his contract. Vesting options are considered club options by the CBA, so my belief is that when a vesting milestone is not met, the club still has an option to pick up or not pick up the option. I don't think arbitration is a possibility for Hernandez.

medford
09-09-2010, 03:38 PM
Rhodes - yes. I think he'd be a type A if he declined and signed elsewhere. If he accepts, he's probably worth it another season. If Chapman goes back to starting, that leaves them w/ Bray and DRH from the left side. Donnie Joseph maybe at the end of the season, but who else from the left side out of the pen? Maloney, maybe, but he doesn't strike me as a loogy. I don't trust DRH a bit. I think Bray will bounce back and be strong as long as his arm allows is. So, yes, I'd like to have Rhodes back 1 more year. If nothing else, I've read a ton about his positive mentoring/example in the pen for all the young guys.

Ramon, yes as well. Mes should get a full (or near full season in AAA), it would only be for 1 more year. Unless the arb price was outragous (the 3.25 mil option, if viable sounds about right in terms of what I'd pay him) why mess w/ the Hernanigan combo that has worked so well.

bucksfan2
09-09-2010, 03:56 PM
I voted neither. Both are nice guys to have around, but both would likely be overpaid if brought back at an arb salary. Teams have been much more cautious in recent years signing Type A players, particularly those that aren't stars. I don't think the market would be great for either and them accepting arb is a strong likelihood.

Would they really be overpaying Ramon at $3.25M? Here is the way I see it. First off Mes looks to be the catcher of the future who is going to get some more seasoning at AAA next season. Secondly Hanigan has proven that he can't start on a day in day out basis. When given the chance his numbers have declined and he has been somewhat injury prone over the past few seasons.

If the Reds don't retain Ramon I doubt they look outside for catcher help. It wouldn't make much sense when you are planning on Mes being ready at some point in 2010. Also you don't want to bring in a C who has to learn the entire staff and such. So if you go with the in house options and use a 60-40 to keep Hanigan fresh do you really want Corky starting 40% of the games? And what happens if Hanigan goes down early or Mes struggles in AAA? Do you want a 60+ games of Corky?

To me saying that you would be over paying for Ramon seems penny smart pound foolish. Treat him like the Giants did Molina, keep him around until Mes is ready, and then trade him.

Plus Plus
09-10-2010, 02:07 AM
With all of the pining that many members of RZ have been engaging in over the last couple of years regarding how lovely an .800+ ops catcher would be, I'm shocked that there isn't more support for Hernandez.

That being said, I'm voting no on both as I would prefer to give both contracts before arb and avoid that whole sticky process. One more year on both Rhodes and Hernandez is a good idea, imo.

mth123
09-10-2010, 07:33 AM
With all of the pining that many members of RZ have been engaging in over the last couple of years regarding how lovely an .800+ ops catcher would be, I'm shocked that there isn't more support for Hernandez.

That being said, I'm voting no on both as I would prefer to give both contracts before arb and avoid that whole sticky process. One more year on both Rhodes and Hernandez is a good idea, imo.

I think the case against Hernandez is pretty simple. He's aging, his knees aren't really getting any better, the staff is noticebly less effective when he catches as opposed to Hanigan, the catcher of the future is on the verge and will arrive at some point in 2011 and its pretty unlikely that Hernandez will do it again as the guy from the Orioles is more likely to reappear as Hernandez ages.

As far as arb goes, I'd guess that the Reds will invoke the option at $3.25 Million because Hernandez big year has forced their hand. Given his big year, Hernandez is probably a $5 Million plus guy in arbitration. With contractual raises and the arb cases for the young nucleus eating most of the playflex from the likely departures of guys like Harang, Cabrera and Lincoln, Hernandez at $3 Million plus is probably not the best use of that money in the budget unless he does repeat again. If he drops down to 2007 - 2009 levels that will be an albatross and I'm not as confident as many seem to be that the Reds would be able to move him when Mesoraco forces his way in.

mth123
09-10-2010, 07:47 AM
Would they really be overpaying Ramon at $3.25M? Here is the way I see it. First off Mes looks to be the catcher of the future who is going to get some more seasoning at AAA next season. Secondly Hanigan has proven that he can't start on a day in day out basis. When given the chance his numbers have declined and he has been somewhat injury prone over the past few seasons.

If the Reds don't retain Ramon I doubt they look outside for catcher help. It wouldn't make much sense when you are planning on Mes being ready at some point in 2010. Also you don't want to bring in a C who has to learn the entire staff and such. So if you go with the in house options and use a 60-40 to keep Hanigan fresh do you really want Corky starting 40% of the games? And what happens if Hanigan goes down early or Mes struggles in AAA? Do you want a 60+ games of Corky?

To me saying that you would be over paying for Ramon seems penny smart pound foolish. Treat him like the Giants did Molina, keep him around until Mes is ready, and then trade him.

Here's the thing. If the sub .700 OPS Hernandez from 2009 shows up, the drop off to Corky isn't really as big as many seem to make it out to be. There is also the impact on the staff. IMO Hernandez presence behind the plate hurts the perfromance of the staff. Given the savings that could be used to help reinforce other areas, I wouldn't mind having Corky.

Another factor is that Hanigan probably would probably be able to play more than 60% of the time through June. Say Hanigan plays 75% in April, May and June and Mesoraco arrives at the break. Mes would probably play more than 50% of the time after he's up and the fatigue that Hanigan would show in the second half would become a non-issue as he'd be getting plenty of rest. We're really talking about replacing Hernandez playing time by giving about half of it to Hanigan through June and then all of it to Hanigan and Mes in the second half. A fairly small % would go to Corky in the big scheme of things (probably not much more than would go to Corky when he gets the call when Ramon makes his annual DL trip - maybe 25 games or so) while saving some money for use in other weak areas and probably giving the staff a boost to boot.

bucksfan2
09-10-2010, 09:35 AM
Here's the thing. If the sub .700 OPS Hernandez from 2009 shows up, the drop off to Corky isn't really as big as many seem to make it out to be. There is also the impact on the staff. IMO Hernandez presence behind the plate hurts the perfromance of the staff. Given the savings that could be used to help reinforce other areas, I wouldn't mind having Corky.

Another factor is that Hanigan probably would probably be able to play more than 60% of the time through June. Say Hanigan plays 75% in April, May and June and Mesoraco arrives at the break. Mes would probably play more than 50% of the time after he's up and the fatigue that Hanigan would show in the second half would become a non-issue as he'd be getting plenty of rest. We're really talking about replacing Hernandez playing time by giving about half of it to Hanigan through June and then all of it to Hanigan and Mes in the second half. A fairly small % would go to Corky in the big scheme of things (probably not much more than would go to Corky when he gets the call when Ramon makes his annual DL trip - maybe 25 games or so) while saving some money for use in other weak areas and probably giving the staff a boost to boot.

Sure if its a sub .700 OPS you really won't miss much. But if its a .800+ OPS you will miss quite a bit. I don't think he will replicate his season this year again, but I also don't think he will regress to a sub.700 OPS. I think we can expect something along his career avg of .750. IMO that is a huge upgrade from Corky.

IIRC Hanigan broke down during the first third of last season. He also found his way onto the DL during the early part of this season. I just don't think he can handle that every day catching load. And there is no way I want to give Corky 40% of the at bats and hope Mes is ready to go by mid June.