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View Full Version : Heisey scratched for tonight. We're down to 2 OF'ers now...



SirFelixCat
09-11-2010, 04:23 PM
Per the Reds tweet and Better Off Red, Heisey was scratched tonight and Cairo is starting in RF.

Enough is enough. Walt can't keep handcuffing this team when it comes to the lack of depth at OF. Screw lack of depth, how about being able to field a real starting OF now?!?!:angry::bang:

Don't get me wrong, Cairo has been incredible as a fill-in, but NOT in the OF!

CTA513
09-11-2010, 04:26 PM
Stubbs has a lot of ground to cover tonight.

hebroncougar
09-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Wow.......someone needs to go on the 60 Day DL, and the heck with the AAA playoffs.

membengal
09-11-2010, 04:28 PM
Even given Cincy's fetish for playing short-handed, this has crossed over to ridiculous.

Seriously, DRH is NOT worth holding a 40-man roster spot for at this point, given their needs in the OF. Send him packing, and get either Sappelt or Balentin (he's back) up here.

wheels
09-11-2010, 04:28 PM
This team is a MASH unit.

Is it any wonder that they've been scuffling?

Good news is that most of these guys could be healed up down the stretch. It could provide some very good energy.

Let's keep our fingers crossed, and stay away from any ledges.

TheNext44
09-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Six game lead. Twenty one games to go.

If there actually was a pennant race in the NL Central, then it would be an issue.

HotCorner
09-11-2010, 04:45 PM
Hasn't Cairo been battling a hamstring issue?

Big Klu
09-11-2010, 04:47 PM
Even given Cincy's fetish for playing short-handed, this has crossed over to ridiculous.

Seriously, DRH is NOT worth holding a 40-man roster spot for at this point, given their needs in the OF. Send him packing, and get either Sappelt or Balentin (he's back) up here.

Balentien is back as a DH, but he has yet to play in the field. He may not be able to play defense yet.

I don't want to have to protect Sappelt with a spot on the 40-man roster before the Reds have to, either.

Now maybe Danny Dorn or even Wilkin Castillo might be considered as a viable alternative. Or call up the Corporal on speed-dial and sign Gary Matthews Jr. to a 20-day contract.

dougdirt
09-11-2010, 04:47 PM
Yonder Alonso has played 30 games in the outfield this season. Why isn't he starting instead of a utility infielder?

Plus Plus
09-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Doesn't Juan Francisco have OF experience as well?

Big Klu
09-11-2010, 05:11 PM
Yonder Alonso has played 30 games in the outfield this season. Why isn't he starting instead of a utility infielder?

I believe his 30 games in the OF came at the beginning of the season. Since then, the Reds have determined the experiment to be a failure.

mdccclxix
09-11-2010, 05:13 PM
It never surprises me the lengths the Reds go to ignore Danny Dorn. My gosh.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:16 PM
Agree, Doug. I can't imagine that Cairo is that much better than Alonso or Fransisco. At least put the better bat in the game. Heck, put Leake out there!

membengal
09-11-2010, 05:21 PM
Balentien is back as a DH, but he has yet to play in the field. He may not be able to play defense yet.

I don't want to have to protect Sappelt with a spot on the 40-man roster before the Reds have to, either.

Now maybe Danny Dorn or even Wilkin Castillo might be considered as a viable alternative. Or call up the Corporal on speed-dial and sign Gary Matthews Jr. to a 20-day contract.

Todd Frazier is also a possibility.

Point is, this is silly. No major league team should be carrying only two healthy OFers at any point in any season.

fearofpopvol1
09-11-2010, 05:25 PM
Wasn't Edmonds just activated from the DL? Is he incapable of playing RF?

Also, if I were starting Cairo, I would be putting him in LF and Gomes over in RF.

RedsMan3203
09-11-2010, 05:26 PM
Wasn't Edmonds just activated from the DL? Is he incapable of playing RF?

I think he was just simply activated ... I haven't even seen reports of him swinging or shagging balls in the OF yet.

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:28 PM
For as obvious as this seems, do we really think that these guys aren't doing what's right for the franchise?

westofyou
09-11-2010, 05:28 PM
I'm sniffing a Pete Rose comeback tonight, it's in the cards.

membengal
09-11-2010, 05:29 PM
For as obvious as this seems, do we really think that these guys aren't doing what's right for the franchise?

I forgot. The front office is infallible.

Can't you just let people discuss without coming in with that every time?

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:30 PM
Yonder Alonso has played 30 games in the outfield this season. Why isn't he starting instead of a utility infielder?

30 games experience in AAA doesn't exactly equal major league ready.

What were the results of his 30 games?

alloverjr
09-11-2010, 05:33 PM
30 games experience in AAA doesn't exactly equal major league ready.

What were the results of his 30 games?

What are the results of Cairo's OF starts?

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:34 PM
I forgot. The front office is infallible.

Can't you just let people discuss without coming in with that every time?

So no one can't have a dissenting opinion with the masses? It reminds me of when Laynce Nix didn't pinch hit in a game a while back and there were pages of game thread directed towards Dusty for PHing Ramon Hernandez instead. Dusty loves vets, Dusty hates Nix, Dusty is an idiot. No one could understand why Nix didn't PH. Threads were started on the topic. Then we found out Nix was unavailable due to his back.

Let's not act like we know more than these guys. More than likely, we don't.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:35 PM
30 games experience in AAA doesn't exactly equal major league ready.

What were the results of his 30 games?

In his career, Miguel Cairo has played a grand total of 69 games in the OF, 30 of which he started -- 297 innings in total. Since 2003, he's played 6 games in the OF, 1 as a starter in 2005.

The reality is that no matter who we put out there, he probably isn't "major league ready". But I'd rather have the guy who has spent time there more recently.

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:35 PM
What are the results of Cairo's OF starts?

No idea.

Patrick Bateman
09-11-2010, 05:35 PM
For as obvious as this seems, do we really think that these guys aren't doing what's right for the franchise?

It's not the intentions that are being debated, it's the follow through.

To me it's pretty difficult to come up with a reasonable counter argument as to why Balentien is not up and why one of the replaceable guys like DRH haven't been exposed to waivers. There isn't much downside to losing a guy like that.

Redsfan320
09-11-2010, 05:36 PM
I'm guessing the OF depth chart for tonight is:

Gomes, Stubbs, Cairo
Francisco
Leake (if he physically can)
Alonso
Janish
Votto

320

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:36 PM
In his career, Miguel Cairo has played a grand total of 69 games in the OF, 30 of which he started -- 297 innings in total. Since 2003, he's played 6 games in the OF, 1 as a starter in 2005.

Th reality is that no matter who we put out there, he probably isn't "major league ready".

Would probably agree, but let's not act like one is that much of a better choice than the other.

For all the griping about Cairo when he starts, he has done quite well. Maybe he reads the board and gets jacked up when posters rip on him.

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:37 PM
It's not the intentions that are being debated, it's the follow through.

To me it's pretty difficult to come up with a reasonable counter argument as to why Balentien is not up and why one of the replaceable guys like DRH haven't been exposed to waivers. There isn't much downside to losing a guy like that.

Has Balentien started a game in the OF since he came off the DL? Is he available in the OF? Do any of us know the answer to those questions?

Kc61
09-11-2010, 05:38 PM
30 games experience in AAA doesn't exactly equal major league ready.

What were the results of his 30 games?

Cairo has played some games in LF and RF. Not many, but some. i can understand the Reds going with a veteran in this spot, particularly one with some experience in the corners.

My guess is Bruce is close to returning so Reds don't see urgency to add an outfielder for tonight.

Cairo can hit, pretty decent offensive lineup tonight for the Reds, so maybe they'll get away with Cairo out there and win by putting up some runs.

i don't see this as a big deal for a game or two.

membengal
09-11-2010, 05:38 PM
So no one can't have a dissenting opinion with the masses?

What dissenting opinion are you offering? That the front office never makes a mistake? Because that's what you in essence argue, every single time.

Of course the front office has the best interests of the organization in mind. That doesn't mean they can't make mistakes in trying to achieve that. And it hardly seems outlandish, or worthy of attempting to stamp out discussion, as you often try to do when front office moves are discussed, to note that running a baseball team with only two healthy OFers is less than ideal.

LoganBuck
09-11-2010, 05:38 PM
Has Balentien started a game in the OF since he came off the DL? Is he available in the OF? Do any of us know the answer to those questions?

Todd Frazier and Danny Dorn are also options.

membengal
09-11-2010, 05:39 PM
Has Balentien started a game in the OF since he came off the DL? Is he available in the OF? Do any of us know the answer to those questions?

Todd Frazier is. And a top organizational prospect.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:39 PM
No idea.

The sample sizes are so small as to be pretty much meaningless, but he certainly wasn't good, fielding 30 of his 48 balls in zone (63%) and just 1 out of zone. For comparison's sake, Gomes reaches about 77% of balls in zone. I'm guessing he hasn't improved as he's entered his mid 30's.

Nobody is a good option out there.

corkedbat
09-11-2010, 05:40 PM
Six game lead. Twenty one games to go.

If there actually was a pennant race in the NL Central, then it would be an issue.

It took a lot less than 20 games for the Cardsto lose 9 games in the standings to us and you wearing guys out instead of freshing them up for the playoffs. Love Louisville, but they need at least one OF now. What happens if Stubbs goes down early in the game tonight? Six games is a nice lead, but we don't need to be giving any games away to a second division team.

alloverjr
09-11-2010, 05:41 PM
No idea.

So really no basis to form an opinion or choose a side. Other than the obvious.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:41 PM
Guys, citing different guys not on the 40 man is sort of pointless. Clearly Walt doesn't want to take anybody off the 40 man, so that's not an option.

Redsfan320
09-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm guessing the OF depth chart for tonight is:


Gomes, Stubbs, Cairo
Francisco
Leake (if he physically can)
Alonso
Janish
Votto


I got (shortstop Paul) Janish working out in the outfield too. He says he can do it.- Dusty

I'd say this moves Janish ahead of Alonso and Leake

320

Kc61
09-11-2010, 05:41 PM
Do you really want an outfielder making his major league debut in these games? I'd rather go with Cairo.

The one real option is Balentien. Has experience, decent outfielder. Guessing he'd be up already if healthy and able to play the outfield.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:43 PM
Would probably agree, but let's not act like one is that much of a better choice than the other.

For all the griping about Cairo when he starts, he has done quite well. Maybe he reads the board and gets jacked up when posters rip on him.

I'm happy with the job Cairo has done, but I don't expect he's gonna keep flipping heads.

We're in complete agreement that there is no good choice here.

corkedbat
09-11-2010, 05:44 PM
Guys, citing different guys not on the 40 man is sort of pointless. Clearly Walt doesn't want to take anybody off the 40 man, so that's not an option.

Some of the guys are coming off the 40-man after the season for younger guys anyway - what difference does a few weeks make?

dougdirt
09-11-2010, 05:44 PM
I believe his 30 games in the OF came at the beginning of the season. Since then, the Reds have determined the experiment to be a failure.

Alonso had a start out there less than 3 weeks ago.

And failure or not, its probably better than utility infielder who hasn't played there in multiple years.

dougdirt
09-11-2010, 05:48 PM
Do you really want an outfielder making his major league debut in these games? I'd rather go with Cairo.

The one real option is Balentien. Has experience, decent outfielder. Guessing he'd be up already if healthy and able to play the outfield.

I don't care if its his MLB debut if he is the best option we have. The idea that a rookie simply will crap the bed is silly.

edabbs44
09-11-2010, 05:51 PM
So really no basis to form an opinion or choose a side. Other than the obvious.

I'm not the one saying that Alonso was a better option. If he was starting tonight, I wouldn't be crowing about Cairo's 60 career games.

RedsManRick
09-11-2010, 05:52 PM
Alonso had a start out there less than 3 weeks ago.

And failure or not, its probably better than utility infielder who hasn't played there in multiple years.

I put this one pretty squarely on Dusty's not wanting put young players in positions that might hurt their confidence philosophy. It's not that Cairo is necessarily the best option per se', but that he's best prepared to handle being put in that situation.

Kc61
09-11-2010, 06:01 PM
I don't care if its his MLB debut if he is the best option we have. The idea that a rookie simply will crap the bed is silly.

The rookie you have in mind, Alonso, played his games in LF if I remember correctly. Does he have one inning in RF in his career? And just how much major league experience does he have?

What's silly is the continued refusal to acknowledge that major league experience is important in big games.

I'll go with Cairo, thank you.

Scrap Irony
09-11-2010, 06:07 PM
I have to disagree with you, mem, about calling up an OF from Louisville.

Balentien doesn't look to be an option, a he's not healthy as of yet. Frazier and Dorn are unknowns.

Bruce is apparently just a day or two away from taking the full-time reigns.

Cairo has played RF before and he makes the squad the best it could be defensively. (I've seen Alonso as a LF and all I can say is that you'd not enjoy him as a RF. Or, for that matter, Gomes in right and Alonso in LF.)

Cairo's also been nails most of the year and experience counts with Dusty.

I agree with RMR and edabbs that there isn't a good answer at this point, but Cairo's not indefensible.

TRF
09-11-2010, 06:09 PM
I'll say this. If the opposing pitcher throws with his right hand, I'd want Dorn over Alonso, Frazier, Wlad and certainly Cairo.

dougdirt
09-11-2010, 06:14 PM
The rookie you have in mind, Alonso, played his games in LF if I remember correctly. Does he have one inning in RF in his career? And just how much major league experience does he have?

What's silly is the continued refusal to acknowledge that major league experience is important in big games.

I'll go with Cairo, thank you.
Big games? The Pirates are starting a pitcher who is 1 and 11 with an ERA of 9.66. The Reds could probably win if I started in right field tonight.

membengal
09-11-2010, 06:16 PM
I have to disagree with you, mem, about calling up an OF from Louisville.

Balentien doesn't look to be an option, a he's not healthy as of yet. Frazier and Dorn are unknowns.

Bruce is apparently just a day or two away from taking the full-time reigns.

Cairo has played RF before and he makes the squad the best it could be defensively. (I've seen Alonso as a LF and all I can say is that you'd not enjoy him as a RF. Or, for that matter, Gomes in right and Alonso in LF.)

Cairo's also been nails most of the year and experience counts with Dusty.

I agree with RMR and edabbs that there isn't a good answer at this point, but Cairo's not indefensible.

Appreciate the thoughtful response, scrap, much appreciated. From my view, either Frazier is a top prospect or not. If they can't count on him to be a stop-gap at this point, he should be gone about three seconds after the season ends in some sort of deal.

I am 100% positive he's a better option than Miguel Cairo in the OF. And if it means losing DRH, I am 100% okay with that to get him on the 40-man.

Mostly, I am appalled that they are risking this now with only two healthy OFers. Heaven forbid something happen to Gomes or Stubbs at this point. It's absolutely unnecessarily risky, and poor risk management.

sivman17
09-11-2010, 06:23 PM
I like Lance McAlister's take on it:


12 days with 3 healthy OF..and best Walt can do is Cairo in RF tonight? He should be embarrassed. Don't know how he looks Dusty in eye.

How does a GM botch something in Sept for 12 days?

nemesis
09-11-2010, 06:24 PM
Look at it this way, if Stubbs goes down early...

We could get to see Gomes in CF. :cool:


I almost would pay good money to see the game threads epic of all epic meltdowns...

Kc61
09-11-2010, 06:24 PM
Big games? The Pirates are starting a pitcher who is 1 and 11 with an ERA of 9.66. The Reds could probably win if I started in right field tonight.

While I don't think the Reds have an easy answer to this problem, I do agree that it is rather odd for the Reds to have zero bench depth in the outfield in September, with free call ups available.

While I don't think the AAA guys (except Balentien) should be starting for the Reds, I do think they should have arranged by now to have some outfield bench depth.

Talking about Janish to back up Cairo in RF is a bit concerning. The Reds do have guys in the minors who can play the outfield defensively, one or more should be on the Reds bench I would think.

membengal
09-11-2010, 06:26 PM
While I don't think the Reds have an easy answer to this problem, I do agree that it is rather odd for the Reds to have zero bench depth in the outfield in September, with free call ups available.

While I don't think the AAA guys (except Balentien) should be starting for the Reds, I do think they should have arranged by now to have some outfield bench depth.

Talking about Janish to back up Cairo in RF is a bit concerning. The Reds do have guys in the minors who can play the outfield defensively, one or more should be on the Reds bench I would think.

At the bare minimum, THIS.

mth123
09-11-2010, 06:30 PM
What gets me as that the Reds could easily pick-up (or have already picked-up) some minor league vet whose season is over and has some major league experience and could get the team through the short handed stretch. These teams are mostly done playing for the year and guys like that are likely going the minor league FA route anyway. Why not put up $30K or so and bring some one in who can be be let go after the season without regrets or messing up the 40 man roster? For example, Jody Gerut didn't get called up and his season is over. He's a vet, has major league experience, can play all the spots and even hits lefty. I have to think the Padres wouldn't balk at letting him go since they don't seem to have a spot for him. No messing with Louisville's play-off run, no putting a kid in a spot, no premature call-ups of guys who don't need to be on the 40 man, it seems to simple to me. Gerut is just an example, I'm sure there are other names.

I agree with Rick, they don't want to remove anyone to make room. It wouldn't be hard to get a warm body to play a little if needed and sit at the end of the bench and maybe PR or something when the other guys are ready. Heck, even Willy T would be ok for a few days. Seems like somebody could hit the 60 day DL to make room. If they aren't planning on pitching Leake, he would have been an obvious choice IMO.

Reds Fanatic
09-11-2010, 06:36 PM
It is amazing a team in the middle of a pennant race is going to start Cairo in the OF. Under no circumstances should you ever be that short of players at a position in September.

MikeS21
09-11-2010, 06:37 PM
Big games? The Pirates are starting a pitcher who is 1 and 11 with an ERA of 9.66. The Reds could probably win if I started in right field tonight.And I think this is exactly why we are looking at this OF for tonight. It should be enough to win.

Roy Tucker
09-11-2010, 06:41 PM
The Pirates are a major league team and very capable of beating the Reds.

I would think this is a time where you don't take chances. Control the things that you can control because too much happens that is out of your control.

Maybe this is a tempest in a teapot, but if a blunder in LF costs the Reds a game, this is going to be one of those things that could have been avoided.

Cedric
09-11-2010, 06:43 PM
If Stubbs gets hurt we are in for a weird, weird game.

oneupper
09-11-2010, 06:43 PM
Gary Matthews Jr is somewhere saying "see, you need me".

kaldaniels
09-11-2010, 06:44 PM
Big games? The Pirates are starting a pitcher who is 1 and 11 with an ERA of 9.66. The Reds could probably win if I started in right field tonight.

Usually I roll my eyes when people say something like "even I could do that" but in tonight's case, you are probably correct Doug....now put on your jersey and get in there. :thumbup:

I(heart)Freel
09-11-2010, 07:07 PM
What gets me as that the Reds could easily pick-up (or have already picked-up) some minor league vet whose season is over and has some major league experience and could get the team through the short handed stretch. These teams are mostly done playing for the year and guys like that are likely going the minor league FA route anyway. Why not put up $30K or so and bring some one in who can be be let go after the season without regrets or messing up the 40 man roster? For example, Jody Gerut didn't get called up and his season is over. He's a vet, has major league experience, can play all the spots and even hits lefty. I have to think the Padres wouldn't balk at letting him go since they don't seem to have a spot for him. No messing with Louisville's play-off run, no putting a kid in a spot, no premature call-ups of guys who don't need to be on the 40 man, it seems to simple to me. Gerut is just an example, I'm sure there are other names.

I agree with Rick, they don't want to remove anyone to make room. It wouldn't be hard to get a warm body to play a little if needed and sit at the end of the bench and maybe PR or something when the other guys are ready. Heck, even Willy T would be ok for a few days. Seems like somebody could hit the 60 day DL to make room. If they aren't planning on pitching Leake, he would have been an obvious choice IMO.

I'd like to point this line since no one else has. You're a brave man, mth. Brave.

alexad
09-11-2010, 07:42 PM
To say Walt has done nothing is dumb. We had 6 outfielders on the roster at one time. Be glad we had that. Injuries have us down to 2 for the night. Good teams make due with what they have. What do you want Walt to do,wave a magic wand and poof an outfielder appears.

Even though a minor league player's season is over does not mean they can sign with anyone. They remain property of their major league team until the entire year is over.

We can sign a minor league free agent if they were not on a roster somewhere at the end of the season.

alexad
09-11-2010, 07:43 PM
I think that if you use Alonzo out there it makes him more marketable for another team. He has not future with this team as long as Votto is on the roster playing first base.

mth123
09-11-2010, 07:55 PM
To say Walt has done nothing is dumb. We had 6 outfielders on the roster at one time. Be glad we had that. Injuries have us down to 2 for the night. Good teams make due with what they have. What do you want Walt to do,wave a magic wand and poof an outfielder appears.

Even though a minor league player's season is over does not mean they can sign with anyone. They remain property of their major league team until the entire year is over.

We can sign a minor league free agent if they were not on a roster somewhere at the end of the season.

So call the team and offer $30K for a guy they have no use or future use for. That's 20% more than they'll get on waivers and $30K more than they'll get when he walks after the year. I can't imagine any team other than the Cardinals saying no.

klw
09-11-2010, 08:01 PM
Go get this guy. His minor league season is done and he has not been called up.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=276377
:beerme:

CTA513
09-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Go get this guy. His minor league season is done and he has not been called up.
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=276377
:beerme:

6 foot 3 and 270 pounds

Do you want him for the Reds or the Bengals?

:D

Tony Cloninger
09-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Then it's on Dusty to play either Alonso or Juan in the OF....but I can see why RF is not where he would want them to be....but you cannot put Gomes there either.

Redsfan320
09-11-2010, 09:09 PM
Just for the record... I'd want myself in the OF before WillyT.

320

Sea Ray
09-12-2010, 12:25 AM
Why was Heisey scratched?