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View Full Version : What should the Reds strategy be?



Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 01:58 AM
I know it's not over yet but it's really really close.I don't think the Reds can afford to throw games right now but it's also not like they need to win every game at all cost.Heres a few rules I'd prefer to see the team follow from here on out.

1.No starter should throw more then 100 pitches in any start for any reason unless it is someone not likely to be on the post season roster getting a spot start.

2.Cordero, Masset and Chapman shouldn't be used in more then 2 games in a row and should go no more then 1 inning.Rhodes shouldn't pitch until he can walk again.I really would like to see him get a couple weeks off right now.

3.Rolen,Phillips and Votto sit as much as possible.Once a week for the guys that aren't hurting.Phillips should sit until his hand is completely healed or until he needs to get back to be sharp for the playoffs.

Expanded rosters should make all these things possible and still give the team a very good shot at winning every game imo.

Will M
09-12-2010, 02:28 AM
i was very very unhappy to see Chapman in the game tonight after pitching Thursday & Friday. unless it is a 'must win' kind of game i jthink this is poor judgement.

i like your rules a lot. time to rest some key guys & try to get healthy for October.

Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 02:39 AM
i was very very unhappy to see Chapman in the game tonight after pitching Thursday & Friday. unless it is a 'must win' kind of game i jthink this is poor judgement.

i like your rules a lot. time to rest some key guys & try to get healthy for October.

Chapman showing up in tonights game was the main reason I started the thread.I didn't want to make a huge deal about it but I do think decisions like that should stop now.No need to push guys that are going to be counted on in the playoffs when we have a ton of capable guys sitting on the bench.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 02:45 AM
I agree. With Dusty and Walt being playoff veterans, I would assume they would be on a similar page. I posted this in another thread but here's my lineup for Sunday's game. And no Masset or Chapman allowed either...

Valaiaka - 4
Heisey - 7
Alonso - 3
Francisco - 5
Stubbs - 8
Cairo - 9
Janish - 6
Miller - 2
Cueto - 1

The Operator
09-12-2010, 02:56 AM
The division hasn't been won yet, so I think for right now, the strategy should be to win games. Don't take the foot off the gas pedal until The Cardinals are 100% eliminated, and not a day before.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 03:20 AM
The division hasn't been won yet, so I think for right now, the strategy should be to win games. Don't take the foot off the gas pedal until The Cardinals are 100% eliminated, and not a day before.

That's my exact thought. On the contrary, get the division wrapped up then there might be a time to get some guys rest before the playoffs.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 03:43 AM
There's also the battle for the best record in the league, which could be very benficial if the Reds make the playoffs.
I would definitely be careful, but I wouldn't make any any hard fast rules.

Chip R
09-12-2010, 08:18 AM
There's also the battle for the best record in the league, which could be very benficial if the Reds make the playoffs.


Excellent point.

hebroncougar
09-12-2010, 08:36 AM
I know it's not over yet but it's really really close.I don't think the Reds can afford to throw games right now but it's also not like they need to win every game at all cost.Heres a few rules I'd prefer to see the team follow from here on out.

1.No starter should throw more then 100 pitches in any start for any reason unless it is someone not likely to be on the post season roster getting a spot start.

2.Cordero, Masset and Chapman shouldn't be used in more then 2 games in a row and should go no more then 1 inning.Rhodes shouldn't pitch until he can walk again.I really would like to see him get a couple weeks off right now.

3.Rolen,Phillips and Votto sit as much as possible.Once a week for the guys that aren't hurting.Phillips should sit until his hand is completely healed or until he needs to get back to be sharp for the playoffs.

Expanded rosters should make all these things possible and still give the team a very good shot at winning every game imo.

You know what's weird? I had the same thing Rhodes has. And I had it real bad. I received lots of cortisone shots, shoe inserts, etc. Then my doc tried a new treatment, cryogenics. It's a surgical procedure that took about 30 minutes, and I walked out of the office. My feet were normal in 3 days. Anyone who has had plantar's fasciitis knows it is extremely painful. It made me miserable for about a year.

MWM
09-12-2010, 09:58 AM
They need to not do anything different than what they're doing. When teams start getting out of their normal patterns is when bad things start to happen. Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't change it up.

kaldaniels
09-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Get upset about Chap pitching 3 days in a row? Nah.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 12:42 PM
There's only one strategy in baseball. Win every day.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Keep CoCo from pitching the ninth?

Too early for this. Cards are only six back in the loss column, the Reds are a mash unit and the pen is becoming a mess again.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 03:59 PM
Keep CoCo from pitching the ninth?

Too early for this. Cards are only six back in the loss column, the Reds are a mash unit and the pen is becoming a mess again.

Exactly. This season is a long way from being over. This thing is still going to go to the wire. Today's game is a disaster.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:25 PM
It seems as if every single time someone posts a thread on this forum that assumes we're making the playoffs, something like this happens.

Ghosts of 1990
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
To quote Herman Edwards, "You play to win the game."

There is no coasting. Spot starting the reserves is fine here and there. But go into the playoffs trying to be on a roll. Dusty has rested the regulars plenty this season.

Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 10:04 PM
It seems as if every single time someone posts a thread on this forum that assumes we're making the playoffs, something like this happens.

I don't think the title of the thread assumes anything.The teams strategy can still be to win every game at all cost.It's a simple question.I asked the question and posted what my answer would be.I even made the point that the division still isn't wrapped up.I get what your saying though.I just don't get why it's too early for this thread.

What should the teams strategy be?Here are some options.

1.Don't worry about the playoffs and play everybody everyday and win at all cost.Use relievers as much as you possibly can if they are needed.

2.Take an easy on some guys.We have a bench and nows the time to use it.Have a few rules like I've suggested.

I might be wrong to think it's time to do some things differently.That's the point.I don't think I am and I've included a few ideas I have.Sorry to those of you that are very superstitious and feel this type of conversation could spawn some bad luck and cost us the division.Personally I don't think it matters what we talk about.

UKFlounder
09-12-2010, 10:13 PM
No, the actual "title" does not assume anything, but the first post clearly implied that the Reds can afford to relax and not play to win every game by pulling pitchers at pre-determined counts and giving our best players more time off.


I don't think the title of the thread assumes anything.The teams strategy can still be to win every game at all cost.It's a simple question.I asked the question and posted what my answer would be.I even made the point that the division still isn't wrapped up.I get what your saying though.I just don't get why it's too early for this thread.

What should the teams strategy be?Here are some options.

1.Don't worry about the playoffs and play everybody everyday and win at all cost.Use relievers as much as you possibly can if they are needed.

2.Take an easy on some guys.We have a bench and nows the time to use it.Have a few rules like I've suggested.

I might be wrong to think it's time to do some things differently.That's the point.I don't think I am and I've included a few ideas I have.Sorry to those of you that are very superstitious and feel this type of conversation could spawn some bad luck and cost us the division.Personally I don't think it matters what we talk about.

kaldaniels
09-12-2010, 10:14 PM
I don't think the title of the thread assumes anything.The teams strategy can still be to win every game at all cost.It's a simple question.I asked the question and posted what my answer would be.I even made the point that the division still isn't wrapped up.I get what your saying though.I just don't get why it's too early for this thread.

What should the teams strategy be?Here are some options.

1.Don't worry about the playoffs and play everybody everyday and win at all cost.Use relievers as much as you possibly can if they are needed.

2.Take an easy on some guys.We have a bench and nows the time to use it.Have a few rules like I've suggested.

I might be wrong to think it's time to do some things differently.That's the point.I don't think I am and I've included a few ideas I have.Sorry to those of you that are very superstitious and feel this type of conversation could spawn some bad luck and cost us the division.Personally I don't think it matters what we talk about.

Agreed. We can talk about/say whatever we want. The division is decided by the 25-plus guys putting on the uniform each night.

Spitball
09-12-2010, 10:14 PM
To quote Herman Edwards, "You play to win the game."

There is no coasting. Spot starting the reserves is fine here and there. But go into the playoffs trying to be on a roll. Dusty has rested the regulars plenty this season.

Herman Edwards? Isn't he football were they have a week between games? And what did he win, anyway?

I think there is merit to Hook's post. The trail is littered with blown pennants where teams intended to "win the game."

Rick Miller from the 1978 Red Sox quoted in Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Blunders: A Complete Guide to the Worst Decisions and Stupidest Moments in Baseball History

"Smart managers use their bench so that the subs don't go stale and the regulars stay fresh through the pennant stretch...ballplayers need rest."

In the last few weeks of a long season, I see little wrong with giving rest to veteran legs and arms and letting the fresh legs and arms of Valaika, Alonso, and Janish in there every few nights. I really think Andrusek, LeCure, and Smith need to be pushed to the front of the bullpen for a week or two to give the veterans some time to recover from the long season.

No one is saying, "Don't try to win." Winning sometimes requires shifting gears and trying some fresh bodies out there every few days.

Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 10:19 PM
No, the actual "title" does not assume anything, but the first post clearly implied that the Reds can afford to relax and not play to win every game by pulling pitchers at pre-determined counts and giving our best players more time off.

Right.Maybe I should've given my opinion in a different post.I still would like to here what others think now that it has been clarified.

Maybe the title should be"should the Reds have a different strategy now?"

Cedric
09-12-2010, 10:19 PM
The main strategy should be relegating Cordero to mop up duty only.

kaldaniels
09-12-2010, 10:20 PM
Herman Edwards? Isn't he football were they have a week between games? And what did he win, anyway?

I think there is merit to Hook's post. The trail is littered with blown pennants where teams intended to "win the game."

Rick Miller from the 1978 Red Sox quoted in Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Blunders: A Complete Guide to the Worst Decisions and Stupidest Moments in Baseball History

"Smart managers use their bench so that the subs don't go stale and the regulars stay fresh through the pennant stretch...ballplayers need rest."

In the last few weeks of a long season, I see little wrong with giving rest to veteran legs and arms and letting the fresh legs and arms of Valaika, Alonso, and Janish in there every few nights. I really think Andrusek, LeCure, and Smith need to be pushed to the front of the bullpen for a week or two to give the veterans some time to recover from the long season.

No one is saying, "Don't try to win." Winning sometimes requires shifting gears and trying some fresh bodies out there every few days.

I think there is a middle ground to be found here. I don't like the 100 pitch limit for starters myself, but other parts of Hook's post have merit.

Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 10:22 PM
I think there is a middle ground to be found here. I don't like the 100 pitch limit for starters myself, but other parts of Hook's post have merit.

The 100 pitch limit is questionable.I just don't want Homer,Wood or Cueto having a 120 pitch outing at this point.

Spitball
09-12-2010, 10:25 PM
I think there is a middle ground to be found here. I don't like the 100 pitch limit for starters myself, but other parts of Hook's post have merit.

Yeah, I don't really see the rotation as a problem, but the lineup looks tired and the bullpen obviously worn down.

Oxilon
09-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Locking up the division shouldn't be the only goal. We're only 2.5 games behind the Phillies for the best record in the NL. It'd be a shame to lose out on home field advantage by only a game or two because we were too busy tinkering with the lineup.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 10:32 PM
What really irks me is the roster management of an organization that hasn't sniffed the postseason in 15 freaking years. We've got a 40-man roster option and we've played the last ten games with one hand tied behind our back with three healthy OF, an obviously not 100% BP scuffling bigtime at the plate and running Gomes/Heisey/Stubbs and a blackhole OPS in Cabrera out there every stinking single day.

If Bruce can't go against Az then this thing is getting beyond ridiculous.

A shot in the offensive arm with additional roster flexibility from 1-2 additional OF, I believe would have given us at least an extra win over the last 4-6 stretch of games.

Best case is it costs us playoff seeding and we end up getting the Phils in round 1
Worst case we lose the divison by a game or two and look back in disbelief at the lack of moves that weren't made.

I'm really getting worried until Bruce gets back in the lineup. A six-game lead (5 in the loss column though) is a mini-miracle but I do expect the Cardinals to play well over the last three weeks.

Cedric
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
What really irks me is the roster management of an organization that hasn't sniffed the postseason in 15 freaking years. We've got a 40-man roster option and we've played the last ten games with one hand tied behind our back with three healthy OF, an obviously not 100% BP scuffling bigtime at the plate and running Gomes/Heisey/Stubbs and a blackhole OPS in Cabrera out there every stinking single day.

If Bruce can't go against Az then this thing is getting beyond ridiculous.

A shot in the offensive arm with additional roster flexibility from 1-2 additional OF, I believe would have given us at least an extra win over the last 4-6 stretch of games.

Best case is it costs us playoff seeding and we end up getting the Phils in round 1
Worst case we lose the divison by a game or two and look back in disbelief at the lack of moves that weren't made.

I'm really getting worried until Bruce gets back in the lineup. A six-game lead (5 in the loss column though) is a mini-miracle but I do expect the Cardinals to play well over the last three weeks.

I don't think the Reds miss the playoffs.. But just imagine for a minute what the uproar would be about these roster decisions? It would get ugly.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
I don't think the title of the thread assumes anything.The teams strategy can still be to win every game at all cost.It's a simple question.I asked the question and posted what my answer would be.I even made the point that the division still isn't wrapped up.I get what your saying though.I just don't get why it's too early for this thread.

What should the teams strategy be?Here are some options.

1.Don't worry about the playoffs and play everybody everyday and win at all cost.Use relievers as much as you possibly can if they are needed.

2.Take an easy on some guys.We have a bench and nows the time to use it.Have a few rules like I've suggested.

I might be wrong to think it's time to do some things differently.That's the point.I don't think I am and I've included a few ideas I have.Sorry to those of you that are very superstitious and feel this type of conversation could spawn some bad luck and cost us the division.Personally I don't think it matters what we talk about.You gotta take what I say with a grain of salt on that stuff. I'm 23, almost half of my life has been spent in the lost decade, and I'm as nervous as can be. Nothing personal. :)

Phhhl
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
I don't know what the "strategy" should be. But, if the Reds were to somehow clinch a playoff berth more than a week before the end of the season and basically had to play seven games of exhibition baseball, I would be extremely concerned about them being flat going into the postseason. It is not the worst thing for this team to experience a sense of urgency about every single ballgame until the end of the season. The exercise will only serve to prepare it for the marathon that is the modern postseason gauntlet.

Don't get me wrong. I could also rationalize the benefits of closing the deal as soon as possible. Resting guys like Arthur Rhodes, Scott Rolen and Aroldis Chapman are at the top. But, I truly do believe that this club needs to have a challenge directly in front of them to perform at the level we need to actually take this team deep into the postseason. We have seen weak playoff performances out of teams that clinched too early over and over in recent years. I guess it all goes back to the topic of another thread. Are you happy with simply making the playoffs, or do you measure success in 2010 by how far the team goes into October? If you are content with a first round loss by this team, I guess you may be more fixated on the length of this lead. If you have designs on seeing the Reds win in the postseason, you might just look at it with more perspective.

wheels
09-12-2010, 10:45 PM
Frankly, I don't know what the hell they should do.

I'm okay with that.

Captain Hook
09-12-2010, 11:18 PM
Frankly, I don't know what the hell they should do.

I'm okay with that.

Me to on both accounts.

As knowledgeable as Reds fans are that post here we all might be a little rusty when it comes to things like playoff strategy and how to handle a 6 game lead with 3 weeks to go.

Reds Freak
09-13-2010, 10:52 AM
I don't think that playing Valaika, Alonso and Francisco against the Pirates and Diamondbacks is throwing in the towel and not playing to win. Especially with the way the current lineup is hitting right now. Give your regulars a break so they are fresh in the next few weeks and in the playoffs, give your bench and young guys some meaningful September baseball experience and I think it's a win, win situation. I'm confident the AAA lineup could have produced at least a run yesterday.

bucksfan2
09-13-2010, 12:20 PM
I don't think that playing Valaika, Alonso and Francisco against the Pirates and Diamondbacks is throwing in the towel and not playing to win. Especially with the way the current lineup is hitting right now. Give your regulars a break so they are fresh in the next few weeks and in the playoffs, give your bench and young guys some meaningful September baseball experience and I think it's a win, win situation. I'm confident the AAA lineup could have produced at least a run yesterday.

I would have given Francisco the start at 3b yesterday. That said the Reds have clinched nothing right now. You can't take your foot off the gas pedal until you have clinched. Hopefully they can do so early enough to set their rotation and get your banged up players healthy.

I would caution resting your players too much. You want to give the likes of Phillips and Rolen days off, but you also want to make sure they are ready to go. Too many off days and you can get a little bit rusty. Also keep the pen fresh, but not too fresh. I don't want a pitcher to come into a playoff game when he hasn't pitched in 5 days.

wheels
09-13-2010, 01:47 PM
I would have given Francisco the start at 3b yesterday. That said the Reds have clinched nothing right now. You can't take your foot off the gas pedal until you have clinched. Hopefully they can do so early enough to set their rotation and get your banged up players healthy.

I would caution resting your players too much. You want to give the likes of Phillips and Rolen days off, but you also want to make sure they are ready to go. Too many off days and you can get a little bit rusty. Also keep the pen fresh, but not too fresh. I don't want a pitcher to come into a playoff game when he hasn't pitched in 5 days.


So you don't know what to do either, I suppose.:D

bucksfan2
09-13-2010, 01:56 PM
So you don't know what to do either, I suppose.:D

Nah I have a pretty good idea of what I would do.

If/when the Reds clinch, hopefully it is early enough to slot the rotation. I would go Arroyo/Cueto/Wood/Bailey.

If/when the Reds clinch I would give guys like Votto/Phillips/Rolen/Cabrera/etc. days off. If there were 5 games left they would play in 2. You want them rested but fresh. No way do I go more than a day or two without them playing.

The pen gets normal work in. I make sure that Chapman, Rhodes, Cordero, and Masset all have less than 3-4 off days before the post season starts.

If/when the Reds clinch I have Harang start the last game of the year. I also would use almost a spring training slot system where I would get my relievers work on a pre-decided upon game.

That said I run the everyday lineup out there until they clinch.

Reds Freak
09-13-2010, 03:03 PM
I would have given Francisco the start at 3b yesterday. That said the Reds have clinched nothing right now. You can't take your foot off the gas pedal until you have clinched. Hopefully they can do so early enough to set their rotation and get your banged up players healthy.

I would caution resting your players too much. You want to give the likes of Phillips and Rolen days off, but you also want to make sure they are ready to go. Too many off days and you can get a little bit rusty. Also keep the pen fresh, but not too fresh. I don't want a pitcher to come into a playoff game when he hasn't pitched in 5 days.

I understand your point, but it's not like the everyday lineup is putting up 6-7 runs a game right now. And that might be because of fatigue or perhaps they are just in a team-wide slump right now. I was in favor of starting Alonso, Valaika and Francisco yesterday and I don't think that means they would be taking their foot off the pedal. Heck, those guys probably saw just as good competition and pitching in Louisville than they have in Pittsburgh...

wheels
09-13-2010, 04:55 PM
Nah I have a pretty good idea of what I would do.

If/when the Reds clinch, hopefully it is early enough to slot the rotation. I would go Arroyo/Cueto/Wood/Bailey.

If/when the Reds clinch I would give guys like Votto/Phillips/Rolen/Cabrera/etc. days off. If there were 5 games left they would play in 2. You want them rested but fresh. No way do I go more than a day or two without them playing.

The pen gets normal work in. I make sure that Chapman, Rhodes, Cordero, and Masset all have less than 3-4 off days before the post season starts.

If/when the Reds clinch I have Harang start the last game of the year. I also would use almost a spring training slot system where I would get my relievers work on a pre-decided upon game.

That said I run the everyday lineup out there until they clinch.

Solid plan.