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View Full Version : 9/12 - Reds vs Pirates -- Sweep Time! No Bruce/Rolen



RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 01:12 PM
http://c0013484.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/x2_2aad821

I'll handle the Bengals/Pats score updates...

LETS DO THIS REDS!!!!!

Tornon
09-12-2010, 01:22 PM
Bad Guys:
CF McCutchen
RF Presley
2B Walker
3B Alvarez
1B Bowker
C Doumit
LF Milledge
SS Cedeno
P Burres

Puffy
09-12-2010, 01:33 PM
Cairo didn't have a hit yesterday. No one hold Cairo down 2 games in a row. Only question is whether he gets 2 hits or 3.

Redsfan320
09-12-2010, 01:38 PM
Where did you find that pic of the lineup, 3203?

320

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 01:41 PM
Where did you find that pic of the lineup, 3203?

320

That is normally the pic that Jim Day throws out on Twitter... Coming straight from the Locker Room.

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 02:32 PM
Woah... Are we back up and running?

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 02:54 PM
RedsZone is slower than a Daniel Ray Herrera change up today. :eek:

RBA
09-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Welcome back Redszone.

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Hey hey!

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 02:59 PM
Bengals preseason squad showed up today...

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:00 PM
After three innings, Reds 0, Pirates 0.

Cueto at 56 pitches, 35 strikes.
Burres at 44 pitches, 26 strikes.

VR
09-12-2010, 03:01 PM
I think they hit better against the aces they faced earlier in the month than the dreck they've faced lately.

VR
09-12-2010, 03:02 PM
Cueto needs an economical game today. Bullpen thin....and shouldn't be brought in before the 8th today to blow the lead.

Redsfan320
09-12-2010, 03:03 PM
So everyone else had been having problems with RZ too...

320

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Interesting announcer lineups today:

Radio;
Jim Kelch
Kent Mercker

TV;
Paul Keels
Chris Welsh

Marty and Cowboy are at Marty's golf tournament. Thom must be calling a football game somewhere.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 03:05 PM
The last time we faced this guy, (Burres,) I think Stubbs almost single-handedly defeated him...well, that and he walked a bunch of guys. I hope he can do it again. ;)

VR
09-12-2010, 03:06 PM
Would have like to see OCab make that play

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:08 PM
The last time we faced this guy, (Burres,) I think Stubbs almost single-handedly defeated him...well, that and he walked a bunch of guys. I hope he can do it again. ;)

Yeah, and today, so far, Burres is throwing a no hitter. I said, a no hitter.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 03:11 PM
Yeah, and today, so far, Burres is throwing a no hitter. I said, a no hitter.
Meanwhile, Carson Palmer throws his first touchdown pass... to a Patriot! ugh. Maybe I should be working in the yard today... :D

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:12 PM
Yeah, and today, so far, Burres is throwing a no hitter. I said, a no hitter.

It worked. OCab doubles.

redsmetz
09-12-2010, 03:13 PM
Joey doubles, scores Cabrera, but Cabrera appears hobbled coming in. Votto tied with Pujols for RBI's now.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Joey doubles, scores Cabrera, but Cabrera appears hobbled coming in. Votto tied with Pujols for RBI's now.

TV showed OCab sitting in dugout with the trainer, with his shoe off his right foot, rubbing his ankle.

Raisor
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
TV showed OCab sitting in dugout with the trainer, with his shoe off his right foot, rubbing his ankle.

Superstar Paul Janish, warming up.

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Votto was thrown out, but still gotta like the play

redsmetz
09-12-2010, 03:16 PM
Votto was thrown out, but still gotta like the play

Just to update folks, this was on a flyout by Gomes, Votto thrown out by McClutcheon, two down.

redsmetz
09-12-2010, 03:17 PM
Hernandez singles, Cairo up.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Just to update folks, this was on a flyout by Stubbs, Votto thrown out by McClutcheon, two down.

The flyout was actually by Gomes.

VR
09-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Votto was thrown out, but still gotta like the play

indeed....as it guaranteed a hit.

Razor w/ the single.....Cairo pops up.

redsmetz
09-12-2010, 03:18 PM
The flyout was actually by Gomes.

Corrected, thanks.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:19 PM
After 4 innings, Reds 1, Pirates 0.

Cueto at 72 pitches, 45 strikes.
Burres at 60 pitches, 39 strikes.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Cueto strikes out Doumit, #5.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:23 PM
Milledge flies out to Stubbs in center.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Cedeno grounds out to Cairo at third.

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:24 PM
I think our starting pitchers like facing the Pirates

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Cueto with a ten pitch inning there.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 03:24 PM
I think our starting pitchers like facing the Pirates

Not the bullpen, however...

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 03:25 PM
Nugg gets the Bengals on the board with a 54 yard FG. 24-3 pats

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:26 PM
Not the bullpen, however...

I almost typed our pitching staff, that's why I changed it

PuffyPig
09-12-2010, 03:27 PM
Reds starters have pitched 19 innings this weekend so far, 7 hits, 1 run, and a 24-2 K/W ratio.

It would be nice to get one of them a win.

mth123
09-12-2010, 03:30 PM
Votto was thrown out, but still gotta like the play

Not really.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 03:31 PM
Not really.

With nobody out, that's absolutely the right play. With one out, you don't want him going...

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:33 PM
With nobody out, that's absolutely the right play. With one out, you don't want him going...

Yeah, much easier for Ramon to get the RBI with 1 out & 1 runner at 3rd, than a runner at 2nd & 1 out

PuffyPig
09-12-2010, 03:33 PM
With nobody out, that's absolutely the right play. With one out, you don't want him going...

You try that play with 1 out, certainly not with zero or two.

You never make the first or last out at third.

You gamble with on out to get the runner to third where he can score on an out.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 03:35 PM
You try that play with 1 out, certainly not with zero or two.

You never make the first or last out at third.

You gamble with on out to get the runner to third where he can score on an out.

With nobody out when you're on second, you tag on fly balls to try to get to third with less than two outs. The fly out is the first out of the inning. With one out, you go halfway on fly balls because there will now be two outs and you're already in scoring position. No reason to try to push the envelope to get to third...

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:36 PM
With nobody out when you're on second, you tag on fly balls to try to get to third with less than two outs. The fly out is the first out of the inning. With one out, you go halfway on fly balls because there will now be two outs and you're already in scoring position. No reason to try to push the envelope to get to third...

I think you two are agreeing here, just getting confused on the wording. You make the play if there is nobody out when the play started, or when there's 1 out after the ball has been caught

mth123
09-12-2010, 03:38 PM
With nobody out, that's absolutely the right play. With one out, you don't want him going...

Situationally it may be the right play, but there's more to making the decision to go than the situation. Votto got thrown out. That happens a lot with these guys and IMO takes more runs away than the extra bases add. The Reds run recklessly on the bases and while that nets them a lot of extra bases it winds up in a lot of needless outs. Good teams take extra bases w/o getting thrown out so much.

Pretty much any play where a guy makes an out on the bases is a bad play IMO.

PuffyPig
09-12-2010, 03:38 PM
I think you two are agreeing here, just getting confused on the wording. You make the play if there is nobody out when the play started, or when there's 1 out after the ball has been caught

You are correct.

As long as you remember "you don't make the first or third out of an inning at third", you are OK.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 03:40 PM
After five and a half innings, Reds 1, Pirates 0.

Cueto at 99 pitches, 63 strikes.
Burres at 75 pitches, 49 strikes.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 03:43 PM
You are correct.

As long as you remember "you don't make the first or third out of an inning at third", you are OK.

There are no hard and fast rules. You do what you feel gives you the best chance of scoring the most runs.

It doesn't matter how many outs there are. Each situation is different based on the pitcher, batter, lineup, outs, score, innings remaining, etc.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 03:43 PM
Pretty much any play where a guy makes an out on the bases is a bad play IMO.

I disagree. I'm not sure how you would quantify it, but it's important to put pressure on the defense and make them make plays. That's a big part of this Reds team IMO. It took a perfect throw to get Votto and that's what you got.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 03:44 PM
Situationally it may be the right play, but there's more to making the decision to go than the situation. Votto got thrown out. That happens a lot with these guys and IMO takes more runs away than the extra bases add. The Reds run recklessly on the bases and while that nets them a lot of extra bases it winds up in a lot of needless outs. Good teams take extra bases w/o getting thrown out so much.

Pretty much any play where a guy makes an out on the bases is a bad play IMO.

Statistically they've broken even when it comes to creating runs off of taking extra bases. That means it's at least been a net positive.

Aggression is who this team is. It's winning for them more than it's losing. That's all I care about. Therefore, run away.

mth123
09-12-2010, 03:49 PM
I disagree. I'm not sure how you would quantify it, but it's important to put pressure on the defense and make them make plays. That's a big part of this Reds team IMO. It took a perfect throw to get Votto and that's what you got.

That was a FB to CF and from CF to 3B isn't a long throw. Votto runs ok for a big 1B, but he's not exactly Stubbs. The Reds had a runner on 2B with 1 out and two of the team's hotter hitters in Ramon and Stubbs coming up. That is a pretty desirable situation that the team forfeited by trying to be too aggressive (reckless IMO). Had it been a faster runner or the FB to RF or different guys coming up, I might think its worth the chance, but giving up an out and a runner in scoring position with two of the teams hottest htters coming up is a bad play. If you are going to go there you better be sure you can make it.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Reds making Morton & Burres look like Maddux & Glavine.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 03:51 PM
Very concerned about this Reds offense. Basically shut down by the Pirates in their own park. Very few hard hit balls. Hopefully Cueto goes 9 scoreless.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 03:52 PM
That was a FB to CF and from CF to 3B isn't a long throw. Votto runs ok for a big 1B, but he's not exactly Stubbs. The Reds had a runner on 2B with 1 out and two of the team's hotter hitters in Ramon and Stubbs coming up. That is a pretty desirable situation that the team forfeited by trying to be too aggressive (reckless IMO). Had it been a faster runner or the FB to RF or different guys coming up, I might think its worth the chance, but giving up an out and a runner in scoring position with two of the teams hottest htters coming up is a bad play. If you are going to go there you better be sure you can make it.

Going only when you're 'certain' you can make it is a very passive way to run the bases. That's not this team's game. They are going to take risks and more often than not I feel like it has worked out. Sure, every now and then you're going to get thrown out. But you can't make it easy on the defense, especially against bad teams like the Pirates. If the defense knows that the Reds are going to put pressure on them when they get on the bases, the defense knows they have to play perfect and sometimes that causes tension and mistakes...

Tornon
09-12-2010, 03:53 PM
Very concerned about this Reds offense. Basically shut down by the Pirates in their own park. Very few hard hit balls. Hopefully Cueto goes 9 scoreless.

They'll be fine, just Bruce, Phillips, & OC are knicked up.

Cueto's not going more than 1 more inning

mth123
09-12-2010, 03:58 PM
Going only when you're 'certain' you can make it is a very passive way to run the bases. That's not this team's game. They are going to take risks and more often than not I feel like it has worked out. Sure, every now and then you're going to get thrown out. But you can't make it easy on the defense, especially against bad teams like the Pirates. If the defense knows that the Reds are going to put pressure on them when they get on the bases, the defense knows they have to play perfect and sometimes that causes tension and mistakes...

So they gave them an out. That's the definition of making it easy on he defense (and the pitcher). They had a runner in scoring poistion and 1 out. You don't give that up because it might be a good idea. You try it when its a likely successful play.

I love watching teams take the extra base, but there is a difference between making a decision based on some preprogammed game situations and actually making the right play on the field. This team gets thrown out a lot. They can still run, just stop once and a while when its too iffy a play.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:00 PM
So they gave them an out. That's the definition of making it easy on he defense (and the pitcher). They had a runner in scoring poistion and 1 out. You don't give that up because it might be a good idea. You try it when its a likely successful play.

I love watching teams take the extra base, but there is a difference between making a decision based on some preprogammed game situations and actually making the right play on the field. This team gets thrown out a lot. They can still run, just stop once and a while when its too iffy a play.

So is it only a good play based on the outcome? If that throw was a foot to the right and Votto slides in easily, would that be a good play?

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:01 PM
So they gave them an out. That's the definition of making it easy on he defense (and the pitcher). They had a runner in scoring poistion and 1 out. You don't give that up because it might be a good idea. You try it when its a likely successful play.

I love watching teams take the extra base, but there is a difference between making a decision based on some preprogammed game situations and actually making the right play on the field. This team gets thrown out a lot. They can still run, just stop once and a while when its too iffy a play.

This team has been successful because of that style, not in spite of it. You want your cake and eat it too. You want them to take extra bases when it's easy, or when they're successful but without all the risk that comes with it. I got news: there are rarely any situations where you can take an extra base easily without risk of being thrown out.

What you're asking is to take away the fundamental make-up of this club. I don't know why you'd want to do that. Clearly it doesn't always work, but it's winning them more games than not especially contributing to the dominant record against the bad teams.

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 04:02 PM
And while you are all chatting away.... Pitt has them on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs....

Bengals score a TD now 31-10

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 04:03 PM
Surprised to see no chat of Cueto being pushed past 120 pitches. Shades of Dusty's time with the Cubs... Though with the way the pen has pitched, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Johnny still has his stuff.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:05 PM
Cueto through 7 shutout innings: 124 pitches, 78 strikes. He struck out 7, walked two, and gave up three hits and no runs. Nice outing.

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 04:05 PM
Cueto mans up and gets it done....

124 pitches for Cueto through 7.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:05 PM
Surprised to see no chat of Cueto being pushed past 120 pitches. Shades of Dusty's time with the Cubs... Though with the way the pen has pitched, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Johnny still has his stuff.

Hopefully, they can clinch sooner rather than later and skip Cueto once or twice the rest of the year...

PuffyPig
09-12-2010, 04:05 PM
There are no hard and fast rules. You do what you feel gives you the best chance of scoring the most runs.

It doesn't matter how many outs there are. Each situation is different based on the pitcher, batter, lineup, outs, score, innings remaining, etc.

No one is arguing that you do "what gives you the best chance of scoring the most runs".

But if you are going to gamble going to third on a flyball, you are likely to increase you chances of scoring more runs when you do so with only one out, where you can score on a GB/FB etc.

redsmetz
09-12-2010, 04:06 PM
It would be nice to get the bats out now and build a lead. I'd like to win a game straight up in this series.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:06 PM
Surprised to see no chat of Cueto being pushed past 120 pitches. Shades of Dusty's time with the Cubs... Though with the way the pen has pitched, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Because he went over 120 once?

Of course, there should also be wiggle room with the logic of doing it once in a while and doing it a lot.

Personally I don't think it changes much of anything. If a player is conditioned and able to do it, I see nothing wrong with 120 pitches. But I especially think it's OK to stretch someone out once in a while.

Pitch counts = irrational science.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:09 PM
No one is arguing that you do "what gives you the best chance of scoring the most runs".

But if you are going to gamble going to third on a flyball, you are likely to increase you chances of scoring more runs when you do so with only one out, where you can score on a GB/FB etc.

I agree with that. I just was taking issue with the comment "you don't make the first out or third out" as if it's a law.

As a rule of thumb, that philosophy is a good one. But it doesn't mean there are other situations that do and don't apply to when you take a base (or don't).

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:09 PM
This team has been successful because of that style, not in spite of it. You want your cake and eat it too. You want them to take extra bases when it's easy, or when they're successful but without all the risk that comes with it. I got news: there are rarely any situations where you can take an extra base easily without risk of being thrown out.

What you're asking is to take away the fundamental make-up of this club. I don't know why you'd want to do that. Clearly it doesn't always work, but it's winning them more games than not especially contributing to the dominant record against the bad teams.

Obviously there will be some outs on the bases but runner on second with one out and .300 hitter coming up isn't the time to run unless its a sure thing.

As for the reason for the Red's success, they have pretty much been at or near the top in OBP, Slugging and OPS all year. None of those are enhanced by taking extra bases, but making outs on the bases makes those stats less productive. I'd say having stats like those are the very reason that you don't want to be giving away outs or baserunners. Take the extra bases, but pick the spots better.

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 04:10 PM
Bengals force a 3 and out!

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Bengals force a 3 and out!
Pats must have taken Brady out....

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Bengals force a 3 and out!
They're going to need more than one of those...

It's time for Stubbs to go BOOM! One man on, with two out...

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Obviously there will be some outs on the bases but runner on second with one out and .300 hitter coming up isn't the time to run unless its a sure thing.

As for the reason for the Red's success, they have pretty much been at or near the top in OBP, Slugging and OPS all year. None of those are enhanced by taking extra bases, but making outs on the bases makes those stats less productive. I'd say having stats like those are the very reason that you don't want to be giving away outs or baserunners. Take the extra bases, but pick the spots better.

Unless you're seeing a different team than I, the Reds haven't been doing much of anything with the bats lately. Heck, they're having a hard time scoring against Morton (9 ERA) and Burres (6 ERA).

Time to try and manufacture runs. Even when the Reds were hitting, it was the aggressive running that helped aid those large innings that won games for them.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Looks like Miguel Cairo has landed back on planet reality lately.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Surprised to see no chat of Cueto being pushed past 120 pitches. Shades of Dusty's time with the Cubs... Though with the way the pen has pitched, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. And Johnny still has his stuff.

If Cueto is pitched like Prior was in Sept 2003, that would be worrisome. Prior had 5 of 6 games with 124 or more pitches, and 4 with 129 pitches or more. Shades is a good word, but it is a very lite shading.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:14 PM
A lot of hard hit balls that inning with nothing to show for it. Better for them to go in a team-wide slump now rather than a few weeks from now...

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:16 PM
If only the Reds had traded EE to the Pirates, they'd be up 7-0 by now.

Tornon
09-12-2010, 04:17 PM
18th game of the year Johnny has left with a lead

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:17 PM
Brian Burres through seven against the Reeds on 107 pitches, 72 strikes. He gave up one run, 4 hits, 1 BB, and struck out 6.

VR
09-12-2010, 04:17 PM
If only the Reds had traded EE to the Pirates, they'd be up 7-0 by now.

good call

RedsMan3203
09-12-2010, 04:20 PM
Palmer to Ocho, Touchdown!

31-17 Pats.

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:21 PM
Unless you're seeing a different team than I, the Reds haven't been doing much of anything with the bats lately. Heck, they're having a hard time scoring against Morton (9 ERA) and Burres (6 ERA).

Time to try and manufacture runs. Even when the Reds were hitting, it was the aggressive running that helped aid those large innings that won games for them.

Well we agree that the offense isn't as potent as the season stats would suggest. Doesn't make that the right play at that moment with that fielder, runner or guys coming up. If my team was struggling to score, the last thing I'd want is to remove a baserunner from scoring position and give an out away.

Seems to me they were following the exact mantra you were cautioning against. Votto seemingly ran because there was one out. Didn't factor in anythng else IMO and that seems to happen a lot and leads to needless outs and lost baserunners and its my main beef.

BTW, it seems to happen a lot with Votto and Phillips in particular. In Votto's case its probably because he's on base the most, but there needs to be some thought in the decision and too often it seems like there isn't with this team.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:22 PM
The whole baserunning discussion is certainly a fascinating baseball conversation to me at least. I find myself torn sometimes on it too, but it definately is interesting...

VR
09-12-2010, 04:25 PM
The whole baserunning discussion is certainly a fascinating baseball conversation to me at least. I find myself torn sometimes on it too, but it definately is interesting...

I think it's fair to say as an overall strategy....the Reds have been more aggressive this year than any in the last 10 years. I love that. They never accept 'station to staion' baseball....and that has been fun to watch.

If you are not getting thrown out a fair amount on the bases....you are not taking enough chances.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:26 PM
Well we agree that the offense isn't as potent as the season stats would suggest. Doesn't make that the right play at that moment with that fielder, runner or guys coming up. If my team was struggling to score, the last thing I'd want is to remove a baserunner from scoring position and give an out away.

Seems to me they were following the exact mantra you were cautioning against. Votto seemingly ran because there was one out. Didn't factor in anythng else IMO and that seems to happen a lot and leads to needless outs and lost baserunners and its my main beef.

BTW, it seems to happen a lot with Votto and Phillips in particular. In Votto's case its probably because he's on base the most, but there needs to be some thought in the decision and too often it seems like there isn't with this team.

But there isn't a "right" moment. That's all relative and even within relativity it's still subjective. It's a right moment if the increased chances of scoring outweigh the risk of getting out. But within each situation, we can't really say what the risk of being thrown out is, so none of us can truly make that judgment call. We can have an opinion as to whether it's right or wrong, but we can't say with certainty what the "right" and "wrong" moments are.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:29 PM
Whew, that was a bit unnerving. I continue to be amazed at Rhodes going out there and gutting it out, he is in obvious pain..

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:30 PM
I think it's fair to say as an overall strategy....the Reds have been more aggressive this year than any in the last 10 years. I love that. They never accept 'station to staion' baseball....and that has been fun to watch.

If you are not getting thrown out a fair amount on the bases....you are not taking enough chances.

I hear what your typing, but these philosophical discussions about how agressive a team should be and the game situation overlook the most important factor in deciding whether or not to run. First and foremost in the process is whether the runner is likely to make it. That seems to be secondary. Team likes to run and goes if the situation says its a good time to go. Doesn't seem to matter if the ball hit was the type that allows the fielder to get in a good throwing position or if the runner can actually run. They just run and let the chips fall. While the running game is exciting, there needs to be more to it than just running.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Dusty - put Janish or Rolen in to play third base in the ninth inning.

Thank you.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:30 PM
It would be nice to get a few insurance runs for CoCo. Hopefully, he's shaken the rust off now and will not need them. :pray:

VR
09-12-2010, 04:35 PM
I hear what your typing, but these philosophical discussions about how agressive a team should be and the game situation overlook the most important factor in deciding whether or not to run. First and foremost in the process is whether the runner is likely to make it. That seems to be secondary. Team likes to run and goes if the situation says its a good time to go. Doesn't seem to matter if the ball hit was the type that allows the fielder to get in a good throwing position or if the runner can actually run. They just run and let the chips fall. While the running game is exciting, there needs to be more to it than just running.

of course

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:37 PM
But there isn't a "right" moment. That's all relative and even within relativity it's still subjective. It's a right moment if the increased chances of scoring outweigh the risk of getting out. But within each situation, we can't really say what the risk of being thrown out is, so none of us can truly make that judgment call. We can have an opinion as to whether it's right or wrong, but we can't say with certainty what the "right" and "wrong" moments are.

When advancing on a fly ball, its not that hard. Was there a lot of air under it to allow the fielder to get position to throw with some momentum? Is the runner fast or slow? Is it a long throw like from RF to 3B or a short throw like from CF or LF to 3B? Is the fielder a no arm like Damon or Pierre that makes advancing likely?

Votto isn't really very fast. Trying to advance on a FB to CF seems overly risky in its own right IMO.

VR
09-12-2010, 04:37 PM
Brandon has absolutely abandoned the key to his success this year......hitting the pitch where it's pitched. He's now pulling off every pitch trying to yank it to left. His hips are just flying way to open.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:38 PM
When advancing on a fly ball, its not that hard. Was there a lot of air under it to allow the fielder to get position to throw with some momentum? Is the runner fast or slow? Is it a long throw like from RF to 3B or a short throw like from CF or LF to 3B? Is the fielder a no arm like Damon or Pierre that makes advancing likely?

Votto isn't really very fast. Trying to advance on a FB to CF seems overly risky in its own right IMO.

All that is subjective. How much "air" is needed? How 'deep' does the fielder need to be? None of that is "easy" because it depends on the runner, the fielder, the stadium, the weather (in some cases), etc.

There is no right or wrong answer. It's all subjective.

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:39 PM
BP is important to this team, but it woiuldn't hurt to give Valaika a start and Brandon a day off during one of the D'Back games.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 04:40 PM
In the midst of this lively discussion the Reds have 4 hits through 8. Four.

Cordero in to try and extend the game. ;)

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:40 PM
Brandon has absolutely abandoned the key to his success this year......hitting the pitch where it's pitched. He's now pulling off every pitch trying to yank it to left. His hips are just flying way to open.
I was just thinking the same thing...his whole plate approach has reverted to his former self. He swings at a lot of bad pitches and tries to pull everything. :bang:

Time for the RollerCloser now... strap in and hang on, heeeeere we gooooooo...

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:41 PM
In the midst of this lively discussion the Reds have 4 hits through 8. Four.

Cordero in to try and extend the game. ;)

Perhaps that's why there's a lively discussion. There sure isn't much to talk about in the game. The Reds' offense is on vacation lately.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:41 PM
Cordero pitching, Janish at short in the 9th.

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:42 PM
Perhaps that's why there's a lively discussion. There sure isn't much to talk about in the game. The Reds' offense is on vacation lately.

Like I said earlier, if's better for them to slump now than a few weeks from now. And even though the offense has been putrid this series, they are in line for a sweep..

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:42 PM
BP is important to this team, but it woiuldn't hurt to give Valaika a start and Brandon a day off during one of the D'Back games.
Yea, a full game of sitting next to Dusty and being subjected to Hank Aaron stories does wonders for a hitters approach. :D

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:43 PM
Coco walks Bowker to lead off the 9th.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:43 PM
Of course. Of course Cordero walks the leadoff man.

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:44 PM
Yea, a full game of sitting next to Dusty and being subjected to Hank Aaron stories does wonders for a hitters approach. :D

Might make him focus so he doesn't have to do it again. :D

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Booooooo

VR
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Coco walks Bowker to lead off the 9th.

You just don't throw strikes to guys hitting .184........

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Bad Coco, Bad Coco

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Doumit lines a singles to center, two on, nobody out.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Of course. Of course Cordero walks the leadoff man.
Pull him now. :angry:

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Coco just tries to paint the black with that straight fastball. He's got no out pitch right now.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
I realize we don't want to use him today.

But seriously... Chapman for closer. Dusty, make it happen.

redsfaninbsg
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cordero is the reason the Reds wont go far in the playoffs. You simply can not put this guy on the mound with a one run lead in the playoffs.

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Big out

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Good Coco, Good Coco

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Milledge bunts too hard, Coco gets the force at third.

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 04:47 PM
95 mph, no break, middle of the plate, waist high. He's lucky that was just a single.

sivman17
09-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Cordero's lack of skills never cease to amaze me

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Starting a pool on the date when Chapman becomes the Reds closer.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:48 PM
Can we take him out now? Please?

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:48 PM
Has Cordero threw anything other than a fastball today? He's got a great change-up, why doesn't he ever use it?

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Drunk bases for the Pirates.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Garrett Jones lines a single to center, Pirates hold the runner at 3rd. Bases juiced, one down. Tabata pinch hitting....

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:49 PM
This is embarrassing.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Only out was the bunt.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Unacceptable relief pitching.

Win, lose or draw.

JaxRed
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Can I have "Day after Dusty leaves" in the pool?

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Is Smith still warm?

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Taking two out of three from the Pirates is respectable.

VR
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Good help from the Pirates on the paths, twice now.

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Cordero can't blow strikes by anyone any more and they aren't swinging at the balls.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:51 PM
Very smart play by Votto.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:51 PM
Tabata bounces to Votto, force at home. Two down.

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 04:52 PM
Too much drama

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:52 PM
LOL. I hate this guy. 3-1 Pirates on bases clearing double.

VR
09-12-2010, 04:52 PM
Pull him now.

sivman17
09-12-2010, 04:52 PM
Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable we have to continue to put up with this crap.

Three straight amazing starts blown to the pirates

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
The bullpen owes the entire starting staff steak dinners at Jeff Ruby's...

VR
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
0-2 pitch right down frickin broadway.

Why isn't he yanking him?

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Gameday has that 1-2 pitch right in the middle of the plate. Pathetic.

hebroncougar
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
There are two people surprised that this happened. Baker, and Cordero.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Terrible pitch probably loses the game. Ahead in the count, just a terrible, terrible pitch.

redsfaninbsg
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
They really just need to swallow their pride and eat his contract, no reason for him to be the closer.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Pull him now.
Too late now...should have pulled him when I said to. IT was obvious that we had bad CoCo today. :(

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:53 PM
0-2 pitch right down frickin broadway.

Why isn't he yanking him?He's the closer, dude. Closer pitches the 9th.

sivman17
09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
This is horrible. Absolutely horrible. Cordero has blown his chances of being the closer down the stretch. He is terrible.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
They really just need to swallow their pride and eat his contract, no reason for him to be the closer.

Imagine what we could have done with the money that's been blown on this guy.

VR
09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
He's the closer, dude. Closer pitches the 9th.

by closer I hope you mean..."closer to being a former Red"

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
This could be a blessing in disguise. This could convince Baker to move Cordero from the closer role. :pray:

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Funny to watch Baker slam his hat after the hit. As if he was completely surprised.

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Cordero obviously has bitten it big time, but this is another time to remember that when you only score 1 run, you usually lose.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 04:55 PM
The team with the worst record in the NL has more hits off our closer in two thirds of an inning than they got off our starter in 7. :rolleyes:

sivman17
09-12-2010, 04:56 PM
That's what, his 3rd blown save to Pit this year? Absolutely pathetic.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 04:56 PM
Cordero obviously has bitten it big time, but this is another time to remember that when you only score 1 run, you usually lose.

Yep, this offense is disgusting without Bruce and Phillips isn't close to 100%. Pen meltdown culdn't have happened at a worse time.

One freakin' pitch from putting a big nail in the Cardinals coffin...

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:56 PM
The team with the worst record in the NL has more hits off our closer in two thirds of an inning than they got off our starter in 7. :rolleyes:They got 4 hits in 5 batters off him Friday. It's almost comical.

JaxRed
09-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Dusty thinking "I can't wait to get another chance to put him in and show him I have faith in him"

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Imagine what we could have done with the money that's been blown on this guy.

Well I can imagine what Cordero blew it on...


http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/donuts-donuts-262758_800_1029.jpg

Kc61
09-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Cordero obviously has bitten it big time, but this is another time to remember that when you only score 1 run, you usually lose.

No, this is a time to remember that the Reds were one strike away from a win and a sweep, and Cordero grooved a pitch.

This game was won. Cordero blew it with his second bad outing in three games.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Just killing this team. This season is still in doubt. Today would have gone a long way toward closing it out.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 04:57 PM
The team with the worst record in the NL has more hits off our closer in two thirds of an inning than they got off our starter in 7. :rolleyes:

For the second time in three days. Friday it only took 1/3 of an inning.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 04:58 PM
Cordero obviously has bitten it big time, but this is another time to remember that when you only score 1 run, you usually lose.

They've scored 8 runs in regulation in a 3-game series against a team with a 14-55 road record.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:58 PM
Even more telling for Cordero, is the massive drop off over the last three or four years in his strikeout rate.

Today, for the third straight day, he struck out nobody.

dsmith421
09-12-2010, 04:59 PM
No, we don't need Cordero to pitch well down the stretch. We need him not to pitch at all except in blowouts, because he's pathetic and terrible.

mth123
09-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Interesting that the Pirates didn't let Cordero off the hook by trying to score the runner from 2B on the hit by Jones. The Reds would have likely made the second out at home on that play.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Three great starting pitching outings in three days. Bullpen blew the lead all three games.

Reds were lucky to win two.

Cooper
09-12-2010, 05:00 PM
CoCo cooked.

sivman17
09-12-2010, 05:00 PM
Three great starting pitching outings in three days. Bullpen blew the lead all three games.

Reds were lucky to win two.

Lucky to win two but I still consider 2 out of 3 this weekend as a failure after the great starts.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Lucky to win two but I still consider 2 out of 3 this weekend as a failure after the great starts.

I agree, my point is that the Reds were lucky they didn't lose two or three this weekend. Cordero did poorly and Masset yesterday.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Well, the Phillies made it all the way to the World Series with Mitch Williams as the closer, and then with a very bad Brad Lidge. Neither one ended well, but I would be happy with going to the Series this season.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Three great starting pitching outings in three days. Bullpen blew the lead all three games.

Reds were lucky to win two.

The bullpen definitely did blow it, but if the offense were putting up even better than mediocre numbers against this all-star Pittsburgh 3-man rotation, the pen wouldn't have been in a position to blow these games.

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Coming in to today, in the month of September:

Starters: 10 GS, 56.2 IP, 1-4, 4.13 ERA, 3.96 FIP
Relievers: 35 G, 31.1 IP, 3-2, 4.31 ERA, 3.45 FIP, 0 SV, 3 BS

Kc61
09-12-2010, 05:03 PM
The bullpen definitely did blow it, but if the offense were putting up even better than mediocre numbers against this all-star Pittsburgh 3-man rotation, the pen wouldn't have been in a position to blow these games.


The offense at least could blame injuries to some extent.

The bullpen is healthy. Ineffective lately, but healthy.

JaxRed
09-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Pirates announcers pretty much mocking Cordero

dsmith421
09-12-2010, 05:04 PM
If Cordero was a race horse they'd euthanize him.

mth123
09-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Time for some Miguel magic.

VR
09-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Cairo batting. Alonso sitting.

sivman17
09-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Seems like Hernandez always finds a way to get on base in situations like this.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Well, the Phillies made it all the way to the World Series with Mitch Williams as the closer, and then with a very bad Brad Lidge. Neither one ended well, but I would be happy with going to the Series this season.Brad Lidge had one of the best seasons ever by a closer the year Philly won the WS.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 05:05 PM
Miggy! Now it's all up to Stubbs.

dunner13
09-12-2010, 05:05 PM
love how the pirates announcers are talking about hanrahan like hes mariano rivera, although i guess compared to coco he might be...

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:06 PM
Stubbs has been hitting the ball pretty hard today.

mth123
09-12-2010, 05:07 PM
C'mon Drew. Show the pop that I questioned so much in Spring training.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Nice AB by Drew.

Tornon
09-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Look, it's the Pirate killer

Reds Freak
09-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Don't they have someone to run for Cairo?

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Time for Heisey magic

No kidding, run for Cairo!

Tornon
09-12-2010, 05:08 PM
Don't they have someone to run for Cairo?

Rolen or Alonso?

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 05:08 PM
Don't they have someone to run for Cairo?Stubbs can push him from behind... :lol:

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:09 PM
great 1-2 pitch to hit. Foul ball...

mth123
09-12-2010, 05:09 PM
Rolen or Alonso?

Leake?

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 05:09 PM
Even more telling for Cordero, is the massive drop off over the last three or four years in his strikeout rate.

Today, for the third straight day, he struck out nobody.

Cordero's strikeout (K/9) rate:
2007: 12.22
2008: 9.98
2009: 7.83
2010: 7.49 (Before today)


Cordero's walk (BB/9) rate:
2007: 2.56
2008: 4.86
2009: 4.05
2010: 4.95 (Before today)

Strike out and walk rates are an important indicator of pitcher effectiveness, because these stats are not luck related like BABIP.

You simply cannot be an effective closer if you walk five guys per nine, and only strike out seven and a half per nine.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:10 PM
Heisey is battlin'

dsmith421
09-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Way to go down hacking, Chris. What a grotesque loss.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:11 PM
ball game...

Absolutely disgusting loss and offensive effort.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 05:11 PM
Heisey Ks looking at a fastball over the outside corner.

VR
09-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Chris watched 3 strikes right down broadway that at bat. Wow.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Oh, Heisey.

But the main culprit: CoCo. Insert fork, please.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Lot of good pitches to hit, but this game should have ended 15 minutes ago.

mth123
09-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Tough loss. Not a disaster. Go Braves.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 05:13 PM
Chris watched 3 strikes right down broadway that at bat. Wow.

The first two strikes were on the corner. Nothing wrong with letting those go by.

That last one, with two strikes, you can't watch.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 05:13 PM
And the Pirates notch their 15th road win of the year. Just lovely.

VR
09-12-2010, 05:14 PM
The first two strikes were on the corner. Nothing wrong with letting those go by.

That last one, with two strikes, you can't watch.

Watch one, fine. Two, absolutely not.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 05:14 PM
Loss isn't bad but the way they've played the last week is. They'll still win the division. But they'll back in playing like poop.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 05:14 PM
This offense really sucks right now. There, I said it.

They just made every member of this Pirates staff look like Cy Young. Good lord.

Wheelhouse
09-12-2010, 05:14 PM
You cannot go into the playoffs with Cordero as the closer. Use Chapman. Period. Dusty's idea that you don't put that kind of pressure on a "rookie" is nonsense--Chapman fled Castro's secret police this past year. That's pressure. Pitching in a ballgame is nothing.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 05:15 PM
The 2006 Cardinals switched closers from a high priced vet to rookie at the end of the season, and won the World Series.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Watch one, fine. Two, absolutely not.

Why? If it's not your pitch, why swing at something that you don't like? You are given three strikes. Nothing wrong with using a few of them if you don't like them.

RedsManRick
09-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Walt, if you want to know why you're not selling out, re-watch this this series. Pathetic.

Kc61
09-12-2010, 05:16 PM
Coco pitched all three games this series, he needs to be unavailable tomorrow. I can't watch his ninth innings anymore.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 05:16 PM
And the 2002 Angels used a rookie who had only pitched in Sept as their closer and won the World Series.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 05:17 PM
And the 2002 Angels used a rookie who had only pitched in Sept as their closer and won the World Series.

You really only need to find someone capable of a whip under 3. That's an automatic upgrade.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 05:18 PM
And the 2002 Angels used a rookie who had only pitched in Sept as their closer and won the World Series.Nope, KRod was their setup man. Percival was still intact as their closer.

Cooper
09-12-2010, 05:23 PM
If they want to give themselves a chance they got to switch closers. You gotta be a little bit bold to get it done and you have a whole year of sample size to know that CoCo is done as a closer. He's still a fine middle releiver that you could use in the 5th or 6th inning, but he's not got even closer stuff. I'd go with ABC - anyone but CoCo.

VR
09-12-2010, 05:25 PM
Why? If it's not your pitch, why swing at something that you don't like? You are given three strikes. Nothing wrong with using a few of them if you don't like them.

If you are Tony Gwynn, I agree. If you are a strikeout machine....you better be able to hit strikes.

Brutus
09-12-2010, 05:30 PM
If you are Tony Gwynn, I agree. If you are a strikeout machine....you better be able to hit strikes.

Strikes are strikes. They all count the same. I'd rather he put something in play he's comfortable hitting than just going up there swinging for the sake of not letting a fringe pitch go by. We've seen him going up there hacking on the first pitch a lot lately just as much as his strikeouts and that hasn't gotten him any additional success.

With two strikes, you lose the luxury of being picky. But until then, there's nothing wrong with being patient and not swinging at something unfavorable to hit.

KoryMac5
09-12-2010, 05:41 PM
The closer problem that the Reds have is correctable by moving Chapman up a spot. What is concerning to me is the offense and the fact that since Bruce took batting practice we have heard next to nothing about his return to the line up. Without another bat to go with Votto this team is going to have rough days ahead.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 05:57 PM
The closer problem that the Reds have is correctable by moving Chapman up a spot. What is concerning to me is the offense and the fact that since Bruce took batting practice we have heard next to nothing about his return to the line up. Without another bat to go with Votto this team is going to have rough days ahead.

According to the TV broadcast maybe Wednesday. Since we've been hearing this for a week ( maybe in a few days) it's highly likely that they've no real idea when. It's possible he could go before the end of the Dbacks series or it could be October. The problem is that their offense stinks right now. Would Bruce help. Probably. Would a fresher Rolen help. Yep. How about a leadoff guy who gets on base here and there. Even Votto is slumping a bit as I think he had only 2 hits in the series although did draw some walks and a phantom hbp. ;) Too many people coming back to their career norms towards the end of the year and the effect is not pretty. And how does Phillips console Cordero in the dugout as was caught on TV? "Hey, you really suck, but not as bad as me right now!"

oneupper
09-12-2010, 06:07 PM
It's a Sunday Special, I get it. You risk losing by not putting your best team on the field. The payoff is the scrubs are fresh and the regulars get a blow. OK.

But then, stick with it! Don't let your starter throw 120 pitchers. Don't bring your closer in for the fourth game in row. You have a bullpen full of eager kids. Give them the ball!

Now, the game is lost, your starter has pitched more than warranted and your closer is unavailable for the next game.

/rant

Sea Ray
09-12-2010, 06:08 PM
No, this is a time to remember that the Reds were one strike away from a win and a sweep, and Cordero grooved a pitch.

This game was won. Cordero blew it with his second bad outing in three games.

He blew it on a horrible pitch. Ahead 1-2 with two outs he throws a breaking pitch "spinner" that just hangs right in the heart of the plate. I'm guessing most major league pitchers could have hit that pitch for a game winner. That's unacceptable from a high priced closer

durl
09-13-2010, 09:57 AM
He blew it on a horrible pitch. Ahead 1-2 with two outs he throws a breaking pitch "spinner" that just hangs right in the heart of the plate. I'm guessing most major league pitchers could have hit that pitch for a game winner. That's unacceptable from a high priced closer

+1

Take his rising BB/9 and his decreasing K/9, then combine it with a $12,000,000/year salary, and it's most definitely unacceptable.

Among closers, he's got 36 saves, 7th best in baseball, but his Save % is 81%...hardly stellar. His K/BB ratio is the worst in baseball, his WHIP is 4th worst (he's a few hundredths of a percentage point away from 2nd worst) with a .248 BA. His ERA is an astronomical 4.04. That's not worth $12 million a year.