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Wheelhouse
09-14-2010, 10:01 AM
There's been a lot of talk about poor attendance at games--my feeling is that we're in the middle of a BAD recession, with a lot of financial uncertainty on the horizon. I'm not surprised the Reds aren't drawing well. There's also been talk of Cincinnati having been a great baseball town, and, "what happened?" Well, I don't know if many posters can remember, but when the Reds were such a great baseball town, they didn't televise most home games in order to push people to the stadium. That's often forgotten in all this... Thoughts?

oneupper
09-14-2010, 10:19 AM
A lot of things to consider. TV is obviously a part of it.

The economy.
Population shifts. Where do people live now, compared to 30 yrs ago?
Entertainment alternatives. No cable in the '70s.
and so on.

Redsfan320
09-14-2010, 10:20 AM
Fay said that last night was the lowest attendance of the year, with 12K something. How did that happen?

320

westofyou
09-14-2010, 10:24 AM
Fay said that last night was the lowest attendance of the year, with 12K something. How did that happen?

320

Nine straight losing seasons?

Again the Reds are the only MLB franchise whose attendance apex was achieved in the 70's. IIRC there are only a few from the 80's.

Reds Freak
09-14-2010, 10:24 AM
I think it was someone on this board that explained that the vast majority of tickets are sold before the season begins, including season tickets and all the different packages. Who thought a game against the Diamondbacks on a Monday night in September would be a good draw?

Due to the Reds being awful for 10 years, season ticket packages have dramatically decreased causing overall attendance to be low, especially during weeknight games in the spring and fall. You can't expect to have 25,000 walk up on a Monday night in September, even if they are doing well. Next year, I'm sure you'll see a big increase in season tickets and different packages sold so overall attendance will obviously increase.

Jpup
09-14-2010, 10:25 AM
Fay said that last night was the lowest attendance of the year, with 12K something. How did that happen?

320

WWE was in Cincinnati last night. Monday Night Football was last night. School is back in session. They were playing the Dbacks. They are having another losing....nevermind. I got a thousand excuses.

Chip R
09-14-2010, 10:32 AM
It's not just this year or this decade or this generation.

16,025 for this game in September of 1975.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1975/B09160CIN1975.htm

13,508 for the following game

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1975/B09170CIN1975.htm

22,000 for this game the following year but that was the season the Reds had a record attendance which still stands.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1976/B09060CIN1976.htm

19,000 for the following game

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1976/B09070CIN1976.htm

Let's go back to the 1970 season. The Reds were on their way to a 100 win season and a division title. Riverfront Stadium was new and hosted that famous All Star game. They barely drew 30,000 for a 3 game series against HOU.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1970/B09210CIN1970.htm
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1970/B09220CIN1970.htm
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1970/B09230CIN1970.htm

Back in 1961, the Reds surprised everyone by winning the NL pennant. At this point they were 4 1/2 games up on L.A. Yet they only drew 12,000 in a night game against the Cubs.

Only a little over 14,000 for each game during this 2 game series against PIT a week or 2later. (interestingly enough, I noticed in some of these games they had a LF umpire with the other 4. I wonder why that was?)

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1961/B09190CIN1961.htm
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1961/B09200CIN1961.htm

It's just in the genes of Reds fans that if they are playing lousy teams during the week while school's in session in September, they aren't going to go to games. Doesn't matter if they are on TV or not or they are in 1st place or not or if they are playing in Crosley, Riverfront or GABP.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-14-2010, 10:38 AM
1976 (BRM peak)
1977 (end of BRM run)
1978 (end of BRM run)
2000 (Griffey)

The only times the Reds have gone over 2.5M in attendance (30,000+) and now drawing 12,000 on a weeknight as they chase the division crown.

To me, that seems kind of weak for a "baseball town".

KittyDuran
09-14-2010, 10:50 AM
IIRC, didn't the night games start at 8:05pm back in the 70s-80s?

mdccclxix
09-14-2010, 11:02 AM
I think it speaks to how important the surrounding areas are. The fan base is very regional and can't make it in from 100 miles out.

Also, entertainment dollars are being stretched by the Bengals, who are having their own ticket sales issues, UC, XU, UK, U of L, HS football, etc.

Cincinnati really is a small big city.

RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2010, 11:06 AM
IIRC, didn't the night games start at 8:05pm back in the 70s-80s?

They did, Kitty.

kbrake
09-14-2010, 11:27 AM
I live 2 hrs away. With the current economy there is no way I'm spending the money for a Dbacks game. I am saving my money for playoff games. I'd imagine there are many people doing the same.

dsmith421
09-14-2010, 11:33 AM
It would be great if attendance was higher, but as noted above, this is really nothing new in Cincinnati. I remember going to games in September of 1990 where you had your own section in the red seats.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-14-2010, 11:41 AM
I understand Cincy is a small city compared to most professional towns, but it does draw from a pretty large area.

You have Columbus to the Northeast, which has always been a Reds town (also a Browns town, but that's because it's the older franchise like the Reds). You have Indiana, which is Reds country to the West. Kentucky, I would assume is all Reds country. I would think much of West Virginia, and parts of NC, SC, VA, TN are Reds country as well. And before the the Florida teams, only Atlanta (1966) could compete with the Reds in the Southeast. Also, for many years 700 WLW has been able to reach all of these areas. Heck, I remember just a few years ago picking up a Reds game in Florida.

I understand the economy is bad, but they have always struggled to draw big crowds.

I'm not sure what the deal is. I'm wondering if the strikes of 1981 and 1994 left a bad taste in many mouths. I know both strikes ended up screwing the Reds over badly.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 11:46 AM
I'm not sure what the deal is. I'm wondering if the strikes of 1981 and 1994 left a bad taste in many mouths. I know both strikes ended up screwing the Reds over badly.

Events from 29 years ago and even 16???

We were sleeping with the Germans and Japanese in 1/2 a decade after WW2, if folks are still "upset" about that time then the town/area is likely more a college BB and a football town now.

cincrazy
09-14-2010, 11:51 AM
Nobody should expect a sellout for a game like last night. Or even a crowd of 30,000. But 12,000? This team isn't going to be kept together long, sad as it is to say. The window just opened, but it may be closing soon enough with attendance figures such as these.

dougdirt
09-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Events from 29 years ago and even 16???


My father has been to one game since the 1994 strike because of it. The only reason he went was because he got luxury box seats to opening day through work a few years ago and got to leave work to go.

So yeah, some people are still letting events from 16 years ago keep them from the park. Is it a lot? Probably not, but its certainly keeping some away.

sivman17
09-14-2010, 11:57 AM
Does anyone think they would get more attendance during September if they moved the games up to 6:00 or 6:30? Seems like I hear a lot about "school being in session" and parents don't want to take their kids there and not get home till after 11 PM.

I remember being at games in years past where it was tied going in the 9th and even into extras and I saw parents leaving with their young children cause it was a school night.

I realize many people don't get off work till 5 and so it might be hard to make it down to the game, but I think a 6:10 or 6:30 start might boost attendance a little. Possibly?

Roy Tucker
09-14-2010, 12:07 PM
Great attendance for the Reds has been the exception, not the norm.

I dimly recall some attendance threads in here that show that its not till the following season does winning beget butts in the stands.

I also think that 9 years of losing has eroded the season ticket base. That's where teams like the Cards do well. Winning builds that base up so you never have a gate of less than 20-25K.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-14-2010, 12:17 PM
Events from 29 years ago and even 16???

We were sleeping with the Germans and Japanese in 1/2 a decade after WW2, if folks are still "upset" about that time then the town/area is likely more a college BB and a football town now.


I'm grasping, but I'm sure '81 didn't help things in the 80's combined with a bad team. Even when Rose came back on board in the middle of the decade and the team made a resurgence, I remember hearing my Grandpa and others say they will still not go back because of '81.

'90, '91, '92, '93 they draw a respectable 2.3 to 2.4M, but then the strike of 94 and BAM! Nothing until 1999, followed by the best year attendance-wise in 2000 (the Griffey effect).

Bad baseball for a decade followed and fan apathy. I think it's a combination of factors, including the possibility that maybe the town isn't quite the baseball town it's cracked up to be.

If somehow this is the beginning of 90 wins annually, I could see 2.4 or 2.5M being the norm until they fall back again.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 12:26 PM
Great attendance for the Reds has been the exception, not the norm.

I dimly recall some attendance threads in here that show that its not till the following season does winning beget butts in the stands.

I also think that 9 years of losing has eroded the season ticket base. That's where teams like the Cards do well. Winning builds that base up so you never have a gate of less than 20-25K.

Reds attendance history

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36856

Cedric
09-14-2010, 12:28 PM
After years of inept FO decisions I'm surprised people expect any big crowds this year.

People don't trust the Reds yet and the season ticket base is tiny. A good season ticket base is the key to sustaining decent crowds throughout the year. I expect a huge increase next year for obvious reasons.

Chip R
09-14-2010, 12:40 PM
After years of inept FO decisions I'm surprised people expect any big crowds this year.

People don't trust the Reds yet and the season ticket base is tiny. A good season ticket base is the key to sustaining decent crowds throughout the year. I expect a huge increase next year for obvious reasons.


But they will still draw less than 20K for a game like last night. You can't argue with history.

Cedric
09-14-2010, 12:44 PM
But they will still draw less than 20K for a game like last night. You can't argue with history.

That's true.. though yesterday was 12,000 listed. With a decent season ticket base you would see probably 16-18,000.

That equals a nice chunk of revenue over time. Season ticket base is the life blood of baseball operations.

klw
09-14-2010, 12:47 PM
Yesterday's attendance was low because the excited populace of Cincinnati was all at home looking up Willie Bloomquist stats all evening.

Oxilon
09-14-2010, 01:13 PM
WWE was in Cincinnati last night. Monday Night Football was last night. School is back in session. They were playing the Dbacks. They are having another losing....nevermind. I got a thousand excuses.

I don't think those should be excuses though. Milwaukee and Houston are outdrawing the Reds this season -- two teams that are well out of contention in the NL Central (not to mention Milwaukee is significantly less populated than Cincy).

Arizona (though much more populated than Cincy) is horrible yet they're right behind Cincinnati in attendance.

Maybe it's because I lived in Philadelphia the last few years and I'm expecting too much in terms of attendance, but the Reds are going to the playoffs this year. Every game here on out should be a sell out or close to it. 12 K is kind of a joke.

bucksfan2
09-14-2010, 01:21 PM
I don't think those should be excuses though. Milwaukee and Houston are outdrawing the Reds this season -- two teams that are well out of contention in the NL Central (not to mention Milwaukee is significantly less populated than Cincy).

Houston is a larger city.

Milwaukee has had some success over the past few seasons. It has been proven that you see an attendance bump after you have a successful season, not necessarily while you are having a successful season.

Just for reference our company has season tickets. In the years past you couldn't give tickets away once football season started to get underway, Im talking training camp. This year tickets have been at a premium with many people wanting them. After this season I think you will see an uptick in season ticket holders, and with a couple successful seasons in a row I think you will see attendance continue to increase. Lets not forget that this is the first time in a decade in which the Reds will have a winning season.

cincrazy
09-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Houston is a larger city.

Milwaukee has had some success over the past few seasons. It has been proven that you see an attendance bump after you have a successful season, not necessarily while you are having a successful season.

Just for reference our company has season tickets. In the years past you couldn't give tickets away once football season started to get underway, Im talking training camp. This year tickets have been at a premium with many people wanting them. After this season I think you will see an uptick in season ticket holders, and with a couple successful seasons in a row I think you will see attendance continue to increase. Lets not forget that this is the first time in a decade in which the Reds will have a winning season.

Also, even with the Astros recent downturn, they were one of the most competitive teams in all of baseball for almost two decades. So the fans are probably a little more willing to deal with the downside right now.

CTA513
09-14-2010, 01:41 PM
You can't lose for years and expect the seats to fill up right away after finally having a winning season.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 01:45 PM
You can't lose for years and expect the seats to fill up right away after finally having a winning season.

No you can't.

But you probably also can't have your best year attendance wise when Jerry Ford was president and call yourself a 'Baseball Town' in 2010 either.

Caveat Emperor
09-14-2010, 01:54 PM
No you can't.

But you probably also can't have your best year attendance wise when Jerry Ford was president and call yourself a 'Baseball Town' in 2010 either.

Cincinnati has been, and always will be, a football (especially high school) town that happens to have a really old baseball team.

Also, an anecdotal point, but one that I think is fairly true -- Cincinnatians are, on the whole, some of the most frugal people I've ever come in contact with. If there's any city where the "why pay when I can watch on TV for free" mentality would hold down ticket sales, it's Cincinnati.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 02:01 PM
Cincinnati has been, and always will be, a football (especially high school) town that happens to have a really old baseball team.
.I watch a LOT of baseball, and not just the Reds, a LOT of baseball... I NEVER hear any announcers talking about HS football, NEVER.

I hear it all the time on Reds broadcasts

guttle11
09-14-2010, 02:07 PM
I watch a LOT of baseball, and not just the Reds, a LOT of baseball... I NEVER hear any announcers talking about HS football, NEVER.

I hear it all the time on Reds broadcasts

Cincinnati (NKY and up to Dayton, too) is also one of the select few areas where the question "Where did you go to school?" has absolutely nothing to do with college. Are you a GCL kid, east side, west side...not UC, Xavier, UD, OSU, NKU, EKU, Notre Dame, etc...

westofyou
09-14-2010, 02:11 PM
Cincinnati (NKY and up to Dayton, too) is also one of the select few areas where the question "Where did you go to school?" has absolutely nothing to do with college. Are you a GCL kid, east side, west side...not UC, Xavier, UD, OSU, NKU, EKU, Notre Dame, etc...

east side myself

:cool:

bucksfan2
09-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Cincinnati has been, and always will be, a football (especially high school) town that happens to have a really old baseball team.

Also, an anecdotal point, but one that I think is fairly true -- Cincinnatians are, on the whole, some of the most frugal people I've ever come in contact with. If there's any city where the "why pay when I can watch on TV for free" mentality would hold down ticket sales, it's Cincinnati.

Even though attendance has been disappointing this year when considering the circumstances, I still consider Cincy a baseball town. I went to school at OSU and my wife is from Canton. They don't play baseball in those places. The kids growing up play other sports, in Cincy there is still a large presence of knothole baseball. More than anything else that is why I would consider this town a baseball town.

Tom Servo
09-14-2010, 02:31 PM
WWE Raw last night in Cincy. They Reds got cheered when OchoCinco (who was on the show) mentioned them.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 02:37 PM
WWE Raw last night in Cincy. They Reds got cheered when OchoCinco (who was on the show) mentioned them.

So "fake sports" can outdraw the cities MLB team is what you're saying.

TRF
09-14-2010, 02:39 PM
I watch a LOT of baseball, and not just the Reds, a LOT of baseball... I NEVER hear any announcers talking about HS football, NEVER.

I hear it all the time on Reds broadcasts

It gets a mention or 12 in Texas.

westofyou
09-14-2010, 02:51 PM
It gets a mention or 12 in Texas.

Now that I would expect, but then again they draw some baseball fans still

TRF
09-14-2010, 03:01 PM
When HS football starts, I hear it alot. you get a mention of Odessa Permian, and a few of the area Houston and Dallas schools.

And to say Dallas is doing better than Cincinnati economy-wise is an understatement. Plus that city is starved for a championship. So there is more than just a single factor in play.

Because Dallas has 4 professional sports teams, and Houston has 3, I think it is a little different dynamic. The Cincinnati area is so used to dysfunctional owners in both the Bengals and Reds, the average fan doesn't seem to care about spurts of winning. I read how many articles last year about Kroger or whoever buying tickets to guarantee a sellout for the Bengals? They need to see it happen consistently. They need to better market to the blue collar mentality of the city.

And they need to win big this year. In and out of the playoffs won't do it. They need to go to the NLCS at minimum IMO.

All that, and they still won't draw squat, but it will be better than it is this year.

Heath
09-14-2010, 03:19 PM
Here's are 3 crowds from Sept 11,12,13

19,570
17,083
17,820

It was 1990.

September is just a crazy month. Too much crap for people to do.

Me? I am taking Thursday off to go to a Businessperson's/Old geezer day special.

KittyDuran
09-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Here's are 3 crowds from Sept 11,12,13

19,570
17,083
17,820

It was 1990.

September is just a crazy month. Too much crap for people to do.

Me? I am taking Thursday off to go to a Businessperson's/Old geezer day special.I'm trying to schedule that day off myself - or at least a half day. :thumbup:

_Sir_Charles_
09-14-2010, 03:47 PM
When HS football starts, I hear it alot. you get a mention of Odessa Permian, and a few of the area Houston and Dallas schools.

And to say Dallas is doing better than Cincinnati economy-wise is an understatement. Plus that city is starved for a championship. So there is more than just a single factor in play.

Because Dallas has 4 professional sports teams, and Houston has 3, I think it is a little different dynamic. The Cincinnati area is so used to dysfunctional owners in both the Bengals and Reds, the average fan doesn't seem to care about spurts of winning. I read how many articles last year about Kroger or whoever buying tickets to guarantee a sellout for the Bengals? They need to see it happen consistently. They need to better market to the blue collar mentality of the city.

And they need to win big this year. In and out of the playoffs won't do it. They need to go to the NLCS at minimum IMO.

All that, and they still won't draw squat, but it will be better than it is this year.

Spot on.

mdccclxix
09-14-2010, 04:38 PM
When HS football starts, I hear it alot. you get a mention of Odessa Permian, and a few of the area Houston and Dallas schools.

And to say Dallas is doing better than Cincinnati economy-wise is an understatement. Plus that city is starved for a championship. So there is more than just a single factor in play.

Because Dallas has 4 professional sports teams, and Houston has 3, I think it is a little different dynamic. The Cincinnati area is so used to dysfunctional owners in both the Bengals and Reds, the average fan doesn't seem to care about spurts of winning. I read how many articles last year about Kroger or whoever buying tickets to guarantee a sellout for the Bengals? They need to see it happen consistently. They need to better market to the blue collar mentality of the city.

And they need to win big this year. In and out of the playoffs won't do it. They need to go to the NLCS at minimum IMO.

All that, and they still won't draw squat, but it will be better than it is this year.

It's close enough to a front-runner attitude to find myself getting frustrated.

Cedric
09-14-2010, 04:41 PM
It's close enough to a front-runner attitude to find myself getting frustrated.

What are you going to do? It's not my business to care if this city or anyone besides myself likes baseball enough to come to games. I'm confused why people think it's their business to judge if other should or shouldn't go to games.

Chip R
09-14-2010, 04:42 PM
Me? I am taking Thursday off to go to a Businessperson's/Old geezer day special.


Are you a geezer or a businessperson? ;)

Roy Tucker
09-14-2010, 04:47 PM
Are you a geezer or a businessperson? ;)

He's a charter member of the "Get Off My Lawn" club, i.e. all of us crabby old guys that remember when Abner Doubleday played and fall asleep in mid-sentence.

Hoosier Red
09-14-2010, 05:25 PM
I think it was someone on this board that explained that the vast majority of tickets are sold before the season begins, including season tickets and all the different packages. Who thought a game against the Diamondbacks on a Monday night in September would be a good draw?

Due to the Reds being awful for 10 years, season ticket packages have dramatically decreased causing overall attendance to be low, especially during weeknight games in the spring and fall. You can't expect to have 25,000 walk up on a Monday night in September, even if they are doing well. Next year, I'm sure you'll see a big increase in season tickets and different packages sold so overall attendance will obviously increase.


Ah yes that was me. Allow me to explain what I mean.(and remember all the numbers are fictional but represent an overall trend.)

Let's say you have a pool of 500,000 who are interested enough to go to a game.

Let's say 2% of those people have the interest and the money and buy tickets. (10,000 people and 810,000 tickets sold.)
Let's say 10% of those people have the interest but can't quite afford season tickets and purchase a bakers dozen package of 13 games, (50,000 people and 650,000 additional tickets sold.)
Let's say 10% of the pool is a little less interested or has a little bit less cash to spend so they purchase 5 tickets before the season. (50,0000 and another 250,000 tickets sold.) So right now you're at 1,710,000 before the season starts.

Let's say 25% of the people purchase 2 games tickets. (125000 people and only 250,000 extra tickets sold.)
Let's say 30% of the people purchase 1 game. The one game per season. (150,000 people and 150,000 additional tickets.)

The problem is that good play within a season only increases those last two groups. If say 50,000 people go to 6 games instead of 5, it still has the same impact as 50,000 new people purchasing one ticket. And 50,000 people is a large number of people to convince to purchase 1 more ticket.

And that 50,000 number probably was convinced to buy one more ticket to see the Cardinals games in August, and the Cubs games at the end of April, and Pirates series(there was a lot of people coming for those games) that you simply can't tap that list of people again and again and again.

So how do you increase attendance?
1) Increase the pool of people. If you're dealing with a pool of 1,000,000 every number on the list gets larger.
2) Increase the number of people who were buying Baker's Dozen packages to purchase Season Tickets. If you got 5,000 people to switch from Baker's Dozen packages to Season Ticket packages, you'd have an additional 4,097 people PER GAME.

But even if you increase the attendance by 500,000 people from this year to next. You're still going to sell out Opening Day, the Cubs weekend series (or two) a couple of bobblehead nights, the Cards series in August if both teams are in it. So add that all up, and most nights in September against less than stellar opposition will have maybe 20K people max.

camisadelgolf
09-14-2010, 05:43 PM
Yahoo just posted a related story this morning.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/The-past-few-good-Reds-teams-didn-t-draw-in-Sept;_ylt=AjUBAG.pEd_.LdFkVKGWR4ERvLYF?urn=mlb-269565

Admittedly, this won't do much to stop the fans in bigger (New York, Los Angeles) and more cultish (St. Louis, Milwaukee) markets from mocking the smaller markets for their turnstile counts. And maybe it shouldn't. When a Detroit team experiencing a down season in one of America's worst economies can still draw an average of 5,000 more fans a game than some of the best teams in the league, you're going to be ripe for criticism.

guttle11
09-14-2010, 06:12 PM
I can guarantee you that the extra tickets in Detroit were sold in February and March, when the fan base thought the Tigers would fight for a playoff spot and World Series Title.

Heath
09-14-2010, 08:25 PM
Are you a geezer or a businessperson? ;)

RFS ain't got nothing on me....

KronoRed
09-14-2010, 09:25 PM
Cincinnati has been, and always will be, a football (especially high school) town that happens to have a really old baseball team.

Indeed, much like Pittsburgh

Baseball town? *giggle*;)

WVRedsFan
09-14-2010, 11:08 PM
Indeed, much like Pittsburgh

Baseball town? *giggle*;)
Comparing Cincinnati to Pittsburgh is not only an insult but blasphemy. Pittsburghers could care less about the Pirates. They live for the Stillers. The don't support Pitt or anything else but their NFL thugs. At least in Cincy, they know their baseball and like it. And besides, the Bengals aren't that good most of the time. High school? Yep almost everywhere.

I hate football.

fearofpopvol1
09-17-2010, 03:12 AM
Why is the Reds attendance so poor? Especially this late in the year. If this was any other year in the 2000s, I'd understand. You have a team with a winning record for the first time in 11 years. A young team that that is ridiculously exciting. Votto a potential MVP candidate, Jay Bruce who has come on recently, Stubbs who has killed it recently, Cueto the young phenom and Chapmania, who might be the most exciting pitcher currently in baseball to watch plus a bunch of other young players yet, I watch the home games and the place is anywhere from half to empty to more than half empty. What gives? Have fans given up on Reds baseball? Is Cincinnati Bengals country now?

I know that school is back in session, I know the Reds recently have played uninteresting teams at home, I know the economy is still in bad shape but that seems like an excuse. The weather has been gorgeous this month as well. If fans want the team to spend more money and continue to become more competitive, attendance is the best way to aid the franchise with that.

Cincinnati has the 2nd worst attendance of any team in contention (worst is San Diego).

So what is the deal?

KronoRed
09-17-2010, 04:42 AM
It's not really a new thing

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/attend.shtml

It's funny to see the Reds are only 100 fans off of what they got in in 1995.

GAC
09-17-2010, 05:01 AM
Exactly right Krono.

johngalt
09-17-2010, 05:41 AM
It's not really a new thing

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/attend.shtml

It's funny to see the Reds are only 100 fans off of what they got in in 1995.

I'd say 1995 is hardly a fair comparison since that was the first season after the strike when tons of fans were still in their "I'm never going to a baseball game again" mode. Even still, your September weeknight/day attendance then at least was consistently in the 18-21k range. I don't see any 12k games in there. And that includes games against the Cardinals, Expos and Marlins, all of whom had losing records.

A better look would be at 1994, another year the team was contending. That year they were averaging 31,628 per game.

Of course, you could always say that one is misleading too since that average did not include September numbers due to the strike and the fact that it was only 4 years removed from winning the World Series.

SunDeck
09-17-2010, 06:08 AM
The economy isn't helping much, and I wouldn't be taking my kids to weeknight games once school starts.

RedsBaron
09-17-2010, 06:36 AM
I expect that the Reds are disappointed by the attendance, which could lend itself to an argument that there is little financial advantage to having a contending team. However I do expect an increase in attendance next year. Sometimes game attendance is a "lagging indicator" of how the team is doing, with attendance increasing the year after a successful season.

cumberlandreds
09-17-2010, 07:57 AM
Most teams that have been down for a while, then have a good season don't see the bump up in attendance until the next season. If they are drawing the same or worse next season then, if I were Castellini, I would be very concerned. I think the economy and a losing decade are main factors in the generally poor attendance this season.

membengal
09-17-2010, 08:43 AM
Out of curiosity, how many seperate threads on this same topic are enough? That's got to be at least the fourth in the last few weeks the most recent of which is still on page one of this forum:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85644

RedFanAlways1966
09-17-2010, 09:10 AM
Guess I'll throw myself under the bus as an example. I am a die-hard fan. I have not been to a single game this year. Why?

* I have a family. Not practical for me to go to a game. If I take the family... ends up costing a lot with tickets, parking, concessions, gasoline, etc (see next bullet). My 5-yr-old will be bored by the 4th inning.

* Back to money. Economy is down. I have not received a salary increase for two years and feel fortunate to still be employed. Do pro sports consider this and lower prices for anything to reflect what is happening in the real world? Of course not.

* Cable TV. I pay good money for this luxury. One of the perks is 145 games of my fav team. Some of my money gets back to my fav team when I pay for this luxury item that allows me to view up to 145 games. I also pay much more attention to a game when viewing on TV that makes me prefer TV over being there. No distractions... people watching, stuff on the scoreboard, blocked view from rude people, etc. I do love the roar of the crowd and those things, but will forego that to make sure I do not miss a single pitch.

GAC
09-18-2010, 04:00 AM
* Cable TV. I pay good money for this luxury. One of the perks is 145 games of my fav team.

That's a big one there. Blame FSN Ohio! :D

alloverjr
09-18-2010, 09:58 AM
That's a big one there. Blame FSN Ohio! :D

Seriously. Why waste the money and time when you can just turn on the TV. And get other things done around the house/office to boot? The experience obviously is different but I can see why people would make that choice.

traderumor
09-18-2010, 10:17 AM
All the local dignitaries will be out come playoff time, swearing they've been to a dozen games a year since 1965.

Any discussion has to distinguish between paid and actual attendance, since the Reds season ticket boost will be next season. For example, I believe the Astros claimed 30K+ in attendance last night. There was maybe 1/2 that actually there.

Of course, if you have season tickets and don't use them, you have too much money and should give some of it to me so I can buy the tickets AND USE THEM. I can't imagine making that investment and only showing up when I felt like it. Guess I'm too born and bred middle class to do that.

Yachtzee
09-18-2010, 02:06 PM
QI put it down to years of anti-marketing by the team than have driven people to choose other entertainment options. Letting the Reds radio network go to seed, failure to have Reds games on free TV well before cable became standard, employing announcers who browbeat some of the team's most exciting players, allowing other teams and sports to gain footholds in territories that used to be the exclusive domain of the Reds, failing to adapt to the changing economics of MLB leading to put a good product on the field, . . . all those factors have led to an erosion, or at least stagnation of the fan base. They may have lost the old curmudgeons and longtime fans because of the '81 and '94 strikes, but their biggest failure has been to entice the next generation of fans to come down to the park.

The Reds were once a moribund franchise that was turned around by a series of front offices starting with Crosley and MacPhail that build successful teams and broadened the fan base through innovative marketing and sound baseball management. Had such policies continued, I have no doubt the Reds would be the flagship team in baseball's best town. Unfortunately, starting with Dick Wagner, reaching its nadir during the smoke and mirrors era of the second part of the Marge Schott reign, then limping along under the watch of Lindner and John Allen, the Reds organization has done more damage to the Reds' fan base than strikes or economic conditions.

Cincinnati is a town that wants to be a baseball town, but the Reds are going to have to spend years to recultivate a relationship with the generations of post-BRM era fans and undo damage done by previous regimes.

SandyD
09-18-2010, 02:23 PM
What is the mood in the town ... away from the ball park? Do you see people wearing more Reds "stuff"? Do the teachers talk about the Reds in school? Is the much chatter in the office, elevators, wherever people gather? I'm just curious.

WebScorpion
09-19-2010, 01:51 AM
Personally, I think the whole thing kind of builds on itself. If you can get a team to the playoffs, that's a big pile of money into the next year's budget right there just in the gate sales. If you can get into the NLCS then it kicks it up a notch and if you make the World Series you're bringing in the same amount as the whole division series PER GAME. Let's say we can add a $10-$15 million player in the off-season to play left field or shortstop. Then we have a good chance of making the playoffs again and maybe going deeper into the post-season. As long as they're putting that money (or a large part of it) back into the payroll, the team should get better and the gate sales will come.

How about the impact of cheaper teams to watch in Dayton and Louisville? How much do you think that has hurt ticket sales?

GAC
09-19-2010, 08:13 AM
What is the mood in the town ... away from the ball park? Do you see people wearing more Reds "stuff"? Do the teachers talk about the Reds in school? Is the much chatter in the office, elevators, wherever people gather? I'm just curious.

Personally, I think the city does a pretty good job promoting the Reds (and Bengals).

Chip R
09-19-2010, 08:48 AM
How about the impact of cheaper teams to watch in Dayton and Louisville? How much do you think that has hurt ticket sales?

Dayton has a capacity of 8,000 and they sell out every game. Louisville has a capacity of 13,000 and average 8,000 per game. If 2,000 fans from each city decided to attend a Reds game instead, it would only bump attendance up 4,000. On a night where they draw 12,000 attendance would still only be 16,000. Helps a little bit but not a lot.

redsmetz
09-19-2010, 09:23 AM
Dayton has a capacity of 8,000 and they sell out every game. Louisville has a capacity of 13,000 and average 8,000 per game. If 2,000 fans from each city decided to attend a Reds game instead, it would only bump attendance up 4,000. On a night where they draw 12,000 attendance would still only be 16,000. Helps a little bit but not a lot.

The rationale has always been that having your minor league clubs closer helps the big club; drawing fans to come see their former players with the Reds. I don't think it's a hard fast correlation, but I think there's some truth to it.

I lean towards the season ticket sales explanation and I think we'll see a good uptick in those sales this season, although the down economy might put some pressure on that too. I think it's clear that games school year always seem to be less attended particularly for fans further out.

Chip R
09-19-2010, 09:37 AM
The rationale has always been that having your minor league clubs closer helps the big club; drawing fans to come see their former players with the Reds. I don't think it's a hard fast correlation, but I think there's some truth to it.

I lean towards the season ticket sales explanation and I think we'll see a good uptick in those sales this season, although the down economy might put some pressure on that too. I think it's clear that games school year always seem to be less attended particularly for fans further out.

Minor league games are fine for what they are. About every time I see a Dayton game, I see guys booting the ball around the field. It's understandable because it's low A ball. I think people go to major league games because they want to see baseball played at the highest level. The want to see the best of the best. I think having minor league clubs close by may help draw fans since they are close by but there's something to be said for siphoning off the attendance. Perhaps it's a wash.

Let's say that 5,000 more people buy season tickets next year. A weeknight game with PIT on September is still going to draw 17,000. Better than 12,000 but that's still not real great.

Let's also say the Reds draw 2M this year. Add those 5,000 season tickets in and that's a 400,000 increase. Drawing 2.4M is nice but they still aren't keeping up with the Joneses in their own division. Especially since the Reds have some of the cheapest ticket prices in the majors.

buckeyenut
09-20-2010, 05:01 PM
Here's my take on this. Football has started. The reds have already passed through the playoff race and are on the other side. And EVERYTHING starts up after summer in September. There was so much excitement for the Reds this summer, we are hitting a little lull before excitement really ramps up for the playoffs.

You want to blame anyone for the poor attendance, blame the Cardinals for making a mockery of the playoff race this year. They laid down this year and prevented us from enjoying an extended chase. But you know what, I am OK with resting the players AND the fans for the playoffs.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 05:06 PM
Here's my take on this. Football has started. The reds have already passed through the playoff race and are on the other side. And EVERYTHING starts up after summer in September. There was so much excitement for the Reds this summer, we are hitting a little lull before excitement really ramps up for the playoffs.

You want to blame anyone for the poor attendance, blame the Cardinals for making a mockery of the playoff race this year. They laid down this year and prevented us from enjoying an extended chase. But you know what, I am OK with resting the players AND the fans for the playoffs.

Football should never factor into lagging attendance for good baseball teams/towns.

Never.

It's a once a week sport

buckeyenut
09-20-2010, 05:14 PM
Football should never factor into lagging attendance for good baseball teams/towns.

Never.

It's a once a week sport
Thursday night is college football and Bearcats are a regular on TV there. Friday night is high school, Saturday is College all day, Sunday is NFL, Monday is Monday night football. Not to mention all the parents with their kids in football programs (like mine) with practices 3-4 nights a week with the offday usually being Friday and either Saturday or Sunday depending on game day.

Football is NOT a once a week sport. That said, I never really had an appreciation for that until this year when my son started playing tackle.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 05:16 PM
Thursday night is college football and Bearcats are a regular on TV there. Friday night is high school, Saturday is College all day, Sunday is NFL, Monday is Monday night football. Not to mention all the parents with their kids in football programs (like mine) with practices 3-4 nights a week with the offday usually being Friday and either Saturday or Sunday depending on game day.

Football is NOT a once a week sport. That said, I never really had an appreciation for that until this year when my son started playing tackle.


I'm talking pro and College taking dollars from the Reds

1 game on TV Thursday night, 1 on Monday.

Just 2 more excuses why Reds fans don't go to the games, that's how I see it.

TRF
09-20-2010, 05:24 PM
I'm talking pro and College taking dollars from the Reds

1 game on TV Thursday night, 1 on Monday.

Just 2 more excuses why Reds fans don't go to the games, that's how I see it.

Except if you are factoring in both college and pro, you kinda ignored college. And the Bearcats have some popularity right now. Plus doesn't college basketball start soon too?

The truth however is what you have always said. Cincinnati is a frugal town. It has a town feel to it. Always feels like a town when i visit, always did when i lived there too. If the Reds go all the way this year, they won't draw 2.8 mil next year. if they won back to back WS, it wouldn't happen. They draw enough to not relocate, with spurts of attendance that more than justify their existence.

Redsfaithful
09-20-2010, 05:32 PM
Locally in most cities you have the opportunity to attend football games Friday - Sunday. Not just the NFL, high school and college football both are huge in Ohio.

Redsfaithful
09-20-2010, 05:34 PM
I think a little bit of the problem with the Reds attendance goes back to the decision to put the stadium on the river. It's a pain to get to, it's not close to anything, etc. you've heard all the complaints before. I think in another part of town the potential would have been there to draw better because it would have been easier to get to a game and to get in and out of the area.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 05:36 PM
Locally in most cities you have the opportunity to attend football games Friday - Sunday. Not just the NFL, high school and college football both are huge in Ohio.

So there are more football games than usual, still not as many as there are baseball games in a season.

I get it... Cincinnati is NOT a baseball town, it's a football and basketball town with a dieing legacy.

Edskin
09-20-2010, 05:49 PM
I'm talking pro and College taking dollars from the Reds

1 game on TV Thursday night, 1 on Monday.

Just 2 more excuses why Reds fans don't go to the games, that's how I see it.

I'm with you on this. If you have a favorite pro or college team and you decide to watch/attend one of their games over a Reds reg. season game, I can understand that because individual games in football are so much more important. However, if you are staying home to watch a random game instead of going to see the Reds, then you probably aren't much of a Reds/baseball fan in the first place.

CTA513
09-20-2010, 05:54 PM
So there are more football games than usual, still not as many as there are baseball games in a season.

I get it... Cincinnati is NOT a baseball town, it's a football and basketball town with a dieing legacy.

Hard to be a baseball town when you suck for as long as the Reds have.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 05:56 PM
Hard to be a baseball town when you suck for as long as the Reds have.

This I believe, if that's the case then I suggest they quit trumpeting the fact that they are a baseball town, because when the Reds were good (not BRM good) they still draw below average.

Reds Freak
09-20-2010, 08:22 PM
I think a little bit of the problem with the Reds attendance goes back to the decision to put the stadium on the river. It's a pain to get to, it's not close to anything, etc. you've heard all the complaints before. I think in another part of town the potential would have been there to draw better because it would have been easier to get to a game and to get in and out of the area.

I can't agree with this. I'm not sure it has any factor on attendance, especially in a year or so when the Banks gets going. I don't see how it's not close to anything, it's downtown where you have dozens of hotels, restaurants, cultural institutions, bars, etc. I really love stadiums that are integrated into the community instead of sitting in the middle of a sea of parking lots...

The Voice of IH
09-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Can not agree with WOY more, football is in week 2 or 3, Baseball is finishing out, plus you have a team that is going to make the playoffs. that place should be sold out every night. Cincinnati is not a Baseball town anymore, and it is really discouraging.

Reds Freak
09-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Can not agree with WOY more, football is in week 2 or 3, Baseball is finishing out, plus you have a team that is going to make the playoffs. that place should be sold out every night. Cincinnati is not a Baseball town anymore, and it is really discouraging.

I never got into this what kind of town is it. I mean, what's the definition of a baseball town? Are there certain criteria a city must meet to be considered as a baseball town? You can't tell me that the Reds don't have good fans or have become irrelevant in Cincy. It's been well documented that the Reds have been terrible for ten years and have lost a good portion of its season ticket base. If the Reds can sustain a few years of success your season ticket holders increase and you don't have nights below 20,000 anymore...

Redsfaithful
09-21-2010, 08:48 AM
I can't agree with this. I'm not sure it has any factor on attendance, especially in a year or so when the Banks gets going.

I might agree with you when the Banks happens, but right now I don't think it's integrated with much of anything. Newport maybe.

Redsfaithful
09-21-2010, 08:54 AM
So there are more football games than usual, still not as many as there are baseball games in a season.

I get it... Cincinnati is NOT a baseball town, it's a football and basketball town with a dieing legacy.

I agree with you btw, I think Cincinnati is a relatively mediocre baseball town with an overinflated sense of self importance. There's really no shame in being more of a football city, it's the more popular sport at this point.

The moniker of "baseball town" doesn't matter that much to me though, I don't live there and they'll draw enough to sustain a winning payroll if they have an owner who wants to win and not just profit from revenue sharing. St. Louis can be Baseball Town USA for all I care so long as the Reds make 2010 a habit.

Sea Ray
09-21-2010, 12:29 PM
I judge a "baseball town" by more than just attendance. How many restaurants and bars have the Reds on at 7:30 most evenings? Until recently I noticed a lot of Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune on in this city. Not good. I hope that's changing.

What have the rest of you noticed who live here?

Roy Tucker
09-24-2010, 12:20 PM
PDoc weighs in on this topic...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/paul_daugherty/09/24/reds.fans/index.html?eref=sircrc

dsmith421
09-24-2010, 12:51 PM
That's not how it works in Cincinnati. We're not great at living it up around here. We don't trust success, maybe because we don't see it very much, and when we do, it's just passing through. Bob Huggins was a rare consistent winner here. We dumped him. Brian Kelly got famous and got gone. The Bengals are the Bengals, you know?

This paragraph pretty much encapsulates everything I hate about Paul Daugherty. "We" didn't do any of those things.

"We're not great at living it up around here." Speak for yourself.

"We don't trust success, maybe because we don't see it very much..."

Here's the past 18 months for teams with a following in Cincinnati:
* Bengals win division
* UC football goes 12-1, comes within a whisker of the national title game
* Reds headed to playoffs
* UK ranked #1 for much of the year
* Xavier makes third straight Sweet 16
* OSU football wins Rose Bowl
* Cyclones win their league again

Yeah, everything sure sucks around here.

"Bob Huggins was a rare consistent winner here. We dumped him. "

Who is "we", here? Most UC fans I know would have been happy to keep Huggins around. Whether or not the school had to get rid of him given the multiplicative PR disasters is debatable, but the everyday fan had nothing to do with Huggs getting canned.

"Brian Kelly got famous and got gone."

He got offered the freaking Notre Dame job. Before that the guy walked on water. That's supposed to be a slight on Cincinnati?

Chip R
09-24-2010, 04:50 PM
This paragraph pretty much encapsulates everything I hate about Paul Daugherty. "We" didn't do any of those things.

"We're not great at living it up around here." Speak for yourself.

"We don't trust success, maybe because we don't see it very much..."

Here's the past 18 months for teams with a following in Cincinnati:
* Bengals win division
* UC football goes 12-1, comes within a whisker of the national title game
* Reds headed to playoffs
* UK ranked #1 for much of the year
* Xavier makes third straight Sweet 16
* OSU football wins Rose Bowl
* Cyclones win their league again

Yeah, everything sure sucks around here.

"Bob Huggins was a rare consistent winner here. We dumped him. "

Who is "we", here? Most UC fans I know would have been happy to keep Huggins around. Whether or not the school had to get rid of him given the multiplicative PR disasters is debatable, but the everyday fan had nothing to do with Huggs getting canned.

"Brian Kelly got famous and got gone."

He got offered the freaking Notre Dame job. Before that the guy walked on water. That's supposed to be a slight on Cincinnati?


I think he makes some valid points. Fans are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Almost every time a local team has been successful here over the last 30 years, something has happened that made it unsustainable. The Reds had the best record in baseball in 1981 but the strike and split season screwed that up. They won the World Series in 1990 but couldn't follow up on that for several reasons. They also had the best or second best record in the NL in 1994 but the strike finished that season. They lost in a wild card playoff game in 1999 and got Jr that winter but they didn't imp[rove in 2000 and Jr. got hurt in 01 and the Lost Decade began. The Bengals got to the Super Bowl twice and lost to SF both times - the second one being in the last minute of the game. They couldn't sustain a successful team after each Super Bowl appearance and, at times, have been one of the worst teams in football. They looked like a juggernaut a few years ago but Palmer's leg was broken in the playoff game against PIT. UC basketball was a power when Huggins was here but off the court issues and the almost annual Huggins-to-the NBA watch in the latter part of the 90s and the early part of the 2000s left people nervous. Then he was fired for off the court issues. Same thing happened with Kelly. Every year after he got to Cincinnati he was courted by more prominent programs. He finally left for ND. Xavier has been a successful program but for some reason they don't capture the hearts and minds of Cincinnati.

As for UK and tOSU, they do have some followings around here but they aren't exactly local. But with tOSU, after that championship, they made a couple more appearances in the BCS championship game and got blown out both times. So it's no wonder that fans around here are waiting for ther other shoe to drop for the Reds.

KronoRed
09-24-2010, 05:05 PM
So Cincinnati equals http://kimandjason.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/eeyore_rain.jpg ?

westofyou
09-24-2010, 05:13 PM
So Cincinnati equals http://kimandjason.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/eeyore_rain.jpg ?

Guess I'll go eat some thistles.....

dsmith421
09-24-2010, 05:14 PM
I mean, I'm that way because mentally I'm a miserable 90-year-old man bellowing at clouds for laziness and hurling live cats at schoolchildren. I don't view that as a civic trait, however.

blumj
09-24-2010, 05:46 PM
The happy optimistic types don't usually bother to respond to things like that. They don't call talk radio, either.