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BurgervilleBuck
09-16-2010, 01:03 PM
From Fay's blog (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/09/16/baker-i-dont-care-what-people/)


There were some people who didnt like the (stuff) I was doing from the time we started, Baker said. They didnt like my lineup. They didnt like this. They didnt like whatever the hell they didnt like. I cant worry about those people.

Those people dont manage this ballclub. Those people dont understand the psychological dynamics of your ballclub. There were people who wanted (Chris) Dickerson to play. Then they were booing Dickerson. There were people wanted (Laynce) Nix to play. There were people who wanted (Jay) Bruce sent to the minor leagues. There were people who wanted (Chris) Heisey to play everyday. There were people wanted (Drew) Stubbs sent to the minor leagues. There were people who wanted (Nick) Masset out of here. They were booing Masset.

I dont care what people say. People go with who is hot at the time. Ive got to look at the overall big picture, the dynamics and psychology of my ball club.

Good for him. For too long, certain Reds fans have been second guessing Baker at every turn. I'm glad he finally said something because all of the keyboard managing gets old.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 01:06 PM
the problem is Dusty doesnt understand what the fans are complaining about, because dusty doesnt care to listen. He only hears what the awful media guys ask him.

Saying "why isnt dickerson playing" when the fans are saying "why are you not playing dickerson ever" isnt the question they are asking.

Dusty needs to grow up and stop blaming the fans for players failures.

Stray
09-16-2010, 01:07 PM
Well said by Baker. If it were up to the fans players would be benched, sent to the minors, promoted from A ball, lose pitching jobs, and whatever else all of the time. All without considering what it does to players or the teams confidence, chemistry, and cohesiveness.

We can second guess all day long, but it seems fans only remember the moves that didn't work, not the ones that did.

BurgervilleBuck
09-16-2010, 01:09 PM
Dusty needs to grow up and stop blaming the fans for players failures.
What, the failures that have them 10 games from clinching the division?

RedsFanInBama
09-16-2010, 01:11 PM
What, the failures that have them 10 games from clinching the division?
No, no, no. The failures that have the Reds putting together their best season in more than a decade.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 01:16 PM
What, the failures that have them 10 games from clinching the division?

Cordero's inability to not give up over 3 base runners every other inning.

Gomes below replacement level production

Running Cabrera into the ground when he was playing every day and hitting .200/.239/.296 for basically a month and a half.

and those are just some of the more obvious. I could nit pick a ton of his mistakes, that causes players to fail.

RedsFanInBama
09-16-2010, 01:17 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Cabrera was starting to come around and hit well prior to going on the DL. So I think it's just speculation that he was not hitting because he was tired. I mean it was the start of the season.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-16-2010, 01:18 PM
just win baby or at least let the Cardinals lose or both

RedsFanInBama
09-16-2010, 01:20 PM
Regardless of what fans think of him, Dusty has coached this team to first place in the division and a playoff spot. That can't be debated.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 01:21 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Cabrera was starting to come around and hit well prior to going on the DL. So I think it's just speculation that he was not hitting because he was tired. I mean it was the start of the season.

it wasnt at the start, but still if he was tired or injured it doesnt explain why Dusty refused to give him a day off.

Cabrera plays so much better when he gets the Rolen treatment. I dont know if its sample size or what but there is no reason for how hard Cabrera has been played when he has struggled quite often, and basically all year long given his current stat line. Its really really terrible.

Not to mention also putting sub or low .300 OBPs in front of Votto and Rolen, and continuing to hit Gomes 5th or 4th when his OPS has been .700 for every month but 1.

Its very cumulative. Guy might be able to manage people, but his game managing is very damning.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 01:22 PM
Regardless of what fans think of him, Dusty has coached this team to first place in the division and a playoff spot. That can't be debated.

what can be debated is how much he really had to do with it. I tend to say the good players, like Votto, Rolen, Bruce, Phillips, Stubbs, cueto, Arroyo, Rhodes, Masset and the catchers had more to do with it than Dusty. I think most managers win a lot of games and maybe even more with that same set of talent.

Captain13
09-16-2010, 01:34 PM
it wasnt at the start, but still if he was tired or injured it doesnt explain why Dusty refused to give him a day off.

Cabrera plays so much better when he gets the Rolen treatment. I dont know if its sample size or what but there is no reason for how hard Cabrera has been played when he has struggled quite often, and basically all year long given his current stat line. Its really really terrible.



Are you talking about the same Cabrera that played 160+ games 5 times from 2001-2009 and hasn't played fewer than 143 games in over 10 years? The Cabrera who comes to the park EVERY day ready to play. Wow, maybe the psychology of THAT Cabrera doesn't like to sit and watch his team play without his contribution. Maybe Dusty knows what he is doing with OCab.

crazyjdawg
09-16-2010, 01:36 PM
It appears as though Dusty Baker visits this message board often haha.

defender
09-16-2010, 01:36 PM
Baker manages a team. People will bring up a couple of stats from a couple of players, and argue that Baker does not understand how to construct a lineup. The team Baker manages, leads the NL in runs. No matter how low OCab's OPS is, or how many wins above replacement Heisey is, it just look ignorant to argue that Baker does not understand lineups. No matter how small the sample size, or how unpredictive of future performance, the lineups Baker has constructed have produced 719 runs. More than any team w/o a DH, and more than 11 out of 14 teams with the DH.

mlh1981
09-16-2010, 01:38 PM
At least we aren't complaining about young pitchers being overworked anymore.

He seems to have figured that out.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 01:40 PM
Being the best while under performing still is under performing. You cant say that Gomes, and when Caberera was horrible was helping the team win more games than they are/were losing.

Kiss the Baby00
09-16-2010, 01:44 PM
Being the best while under performing still is under performing. You cant say that Gomes, and when Caberera was horrible was helping the team win more games than they are/were losing.

congrats. you are in brm territory. we arent the yankees, red sox or phillies. the sooner you figure this out the less miserable you will be

CrosleyField
09-16-2010, 02:46 PM
Good for him. For too long, certain Reds fans have been second guessing Baker at every turn. I'm glad he finally said something because all of the keyboard managing gets old.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.


AMEN

Captain13
09-16-2010, 02:49 PM
Being the best while under performing still is under performing. .

Or you could say, "being the best while under performing still is being the best." I prefer my beer glass half-full.

scott91575
09-16-2010, 03:45 PM
I love it when people like to speak out against criticism. In other words, any modicum of success to any degree is fine with you.

I am going to let you in on a little secret....the most successful people in the world are rarely happy with their own results, no matter how great in comparison to their competition.

I find it rather pathetic Dusty felt any need to deride his critics in the media. I have worked for 16 years in an industry heavily reviewed and criticized (the auto industry). I have made design decisions that are critiqued on the web, in print, in surveys, and even in person. Guess what rule #1 is. Never, ever tell the consumer their wants or criticisms are stupid. In private, maybe. Yet never, ever in the media or to the consumer. It's childish and detrimental. Consumers complain. It's what they do. They want a perfect product. It's understandable. You can calmly explain your reasoning for your decisions, and even walk a person through your decision process. Yet you do not try and elevate yourself above the consumer in an attempt to make yourself feel better. It's childish, and at the root of it all, insecure.

Now, as a fan I do criticize Dusty and some of his decisions. I am a consumer. It's natural and expected. I have also made comments that may not be the best. Yet I am not selling anyone here a product. Dusty is one of the figureheads of a business with many loyal customers, and he just flipped a bunch of them the bird.


Essentially, sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

Become a Pirates fan and enjoy that ride. That is what that attitude brings. Expecting a quality product, and even demanding it is not a bad thing. Telling people to expect less than something perfect is pathetic. If it bugs you, ignore it. People like to debate decisions made by baseball managers, and much of that is second guessing. It's part of baseball, and always has been.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and deal with it.

takealeake
09-16-2010, 03:51 PM
Why was Patterson and Taveras playing constantly again?

I can get the ebb and flow of a player slumping, like Bruce. He has a point there. I'll get PO'ed when Bruce is playing crappy, but I don't want him DFA'ed or anything. I'm just wondering why players when you look at each of their OVERALL pictures like HE is saying, he chooses the one that isn't better!

Explain that one to me, or am I missing the overall picture of having one of the worst closers in baseball wrecking our games.

texasdave
09-16-2010, 03:59 PM
nvm. wrong thread.

Jack Burton
09-16-2010, 04:42 PM
Sensitive guy

Stray
09-16-2010, 04:45 PM
I love it when people like to speak out against criticism. In other words, any modicum of success to any degree is fine with you.

I am going to let you in on a little secret....the most successful people in the world are rarely happy with their own results, no matter how great in comparison to their competition.

I find it rather pathetic Dusty felt any need to deride his critics in the media. I have worked for 16 years in an industry heavily reviewed and criticized (the auto industry). I have made design decisions that are critiqued on the web, in print, in surveys, and even in person. Guess what rule #1 is. Never, ever tell the consumer their wants or criticisms are stupid. In private, maybe. Yet never, ever in the media or to the consumer. It's childish and detrimental. Consumers complain. It's what they do. They want a perfect product. It's understandable. You can calmly explain your reasoning for your decisions, and even walk a person through your decision process. Yet you do not try and elevate yourself above the consumer in an attempt to make yourself feel better. It's childish, and at the root of it all, insecure.

Now, as a fan I do criticize Dusty and some of his decisions. I am a consumer. It's natural and expected. I have also made comments that may not be the best. Yet I am not selling anyone here a product. Dusty is one of the figureheads of a business with many loyal customers, and he just flipped a bunch of them the bird.



Become a Pirates fan and enjoy that ride. That is what that attitude brings. Expecting a quality product, and even demanding it is not a bad thing. Telling people to expect less than something perfect is pathetic. If it bugs you, ignore it. People like to debate decisions made by baseball managers, and much of that is second guessing. It's part of baseball, and always has been.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and deal with it.

So comments like "I reward Dusty by letting him find another team" or any variation of the "he deserves no credit for this teams success" seem just to you because you are a consumer that should never be happy?

I can get with second guessing lineups, pitching subs, or defensive alignments...any of that. I cannot get with downplaying his role to this teams success to the point where people think we'd be better off without him.

I also have no problem with Dusty 'flipping the bird' to his critics. He mentioned how fans call for this, then boo that. Heck, we even boo'd Harang in his last appearance, which for all we know could have been his last as a Red. We have short memories, something that a manager cannot afford to have. It's also a way for him to stand up for his team, who I'm sure hears all of the criticism.

Jack Burton
09-16-2010, 04:47 PM
I love it when people like to speak out against criticism. In other words, any modicum of success to any degree is fine with you.

I am going to let you in on a little secret....the most successful people in the world are rarely happy with their own results, no matter how great in comparison to their competition.

I find it rather pathetic Dusty felt any need to deride his critics in the media. I have worked for 16 years in an industry heavily reviewed and criticized (the auto industry). I have made design decisions that are critiqued on the web, in print, in surveys, and even in person. Guess what rule #1 is. Never, ever tell the consumer their wants or criticisms are stupid. In private, maybe. Yet never, ever in the media or to the consumer. It's childish and detrimental. Consumers complain. It's what they do. They want a perfect product. It's understandable. You can calmly explain your reasoning for your decisions, and even walk a person through your decision process. Yet you do not try and elevate yourself above the consumer in an attempt to make yourself feel better. It's childish, and at the root of it all, insecure.

Now, as a fan I do criticize Dusty and some of his decisions. I am a consumer. It's natural and expected. I have also made comments that may not be the best. Yet I am not selling anyone here a product. Dusty is one of the figureheads of a business with many loyal customers, and he just flipped a bunch of them the bird.



Become a Pirates fan and enjoy that ride. That is what that attitude brings. Expecting a quality product, and even demanding it is not a bad thing. Telling people to expect less than something perfect is pathetic. If it bugs you, ignore it. People like to debate decisions made by baseball managers, and much of that is second guessing. It's part of baseball, and always has been.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and deal with it.
Now this is an excellent post. :beerme:

knoonan991
09-16-2010, 05:05 PM
To the people downplaying the role of a manager handling personalities in the clubhouse, I have a question.

Would you rather have a manager like TLR who sits one of his better players (Colby Rasmus, Ryan Ludwick), due to a personal disliking?

What if Baker didn't appriciate the way Votto reacts after he misses a pitch he could have hit? Would we be fine with Votto being benched to be taught a lesson, because at least Dusty can handle the "in-game" portion of the game?

Absolutely no. Managers have pluses and minuses. If we were to get rid of Dusty, there would be another reason to blame the next manager. Dusty doesn't need to make these guys shave their heads to show unity, their lead in the NL Central is all that needs to do any kind of talking.

Players enjoy playing for Dusty and as a result, the Reds finally have a winning season. It won't matter if we have blown 3 or 4 games as long as we get to the playoffs. Since we have enough of a cushion, why should individual wins and losses hold the upper hand over the final goal that Dusty has been asked to achieve?

Dusty is Manager of the Year in my opinion, the man deserves a 3 year extension.

Kingspoint
09-16-2010, 05:30 PM
the problem is Dusty doesnt understand what the fans are complaining about, because dusty doesnt care to listen. He only hears what the awful media guys ask him.

Saying "why isnt dickerson playing" when the fans are saying "why are you not playing dickerson ever" isnt the question they are asking.

Dusty needs to grow up and stop blaming the fans for players failures.

Exactly. Baker's just using this opportunity of the REDS being in first place to say, "All the fans are stupid. They don't know anything. This team is in first place because of me." It's Marvin Lewis, Part II.

Sorry, Baker, but the team is in first place in spite of you, not because of you.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 05:31 PM
I give Dusty credit for being able to manage people. I just dont think that managers have much to do with a teams success, and the things I think Baker struggles in matters more than managing people.

Kingspoint
09-16-2010, 05:33 PM
I give Dusty credit for being able to manage people. I just dont think that managers have much to do with a teams success, and the things I think Baker struggles in matters more than managing people.

I agree. Sparky Anderson said it best when he said that a Manager can only lose games, he doesn't win them.

brm7675
09-16-2010, 05:45 PM
From Fay's blog (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/09/16/baker-i-dont-care-what-people/)



Good for him. For too long, certain Reds fans have been second guessing Baker at every turn. I'm glad he finally said something because all of the keyboard managing gets old.

Essentially, sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

please, listening to dusty can give someone a headache. He wants to make seem like putting together a lineup card is like Brain Surgery or something. it's not, it's a very simple process, this is a very simple game to manage, in fact probably the easiest of the major sports to manage.

brm7675
09-16-2010, 05:46 PM
Dusty is Manager of the Year in my opinion, the man deserves a 3 year extension.

I just threw up in my mouth..

brm7675
09-16-2010, 05:49 PM
What, the failures that have them 10 games from clinching the division?

Wow where to start

1. See Atlanta game where a HUGE lead was blown in latter innings
2. See Philly series game was blown with 7 run lead going into the bottom of the 9th
3. See misuse of players and refusal to play better players
4. See refusal to look outside of the box and try other players in new roles
5. See the huge amount of blown leads this team has given up
6. See the continual playing of injuried players with the idea they will work their way out of their slump

FlyerFanatic
09-16-2010, 05:51 PM
I give Dusty credit for being able to manage people. I just dont think that managers have much to do with a teams success, and the things I think Baker struggles in matters more than managing people.

nicely put. i agree

Kingspoint
09-16-2010, 06:07 PM
this is a very simple game to manage, in fact probably the easiest of the major sports to manage.

Without a doubt.

knoonan991
09-16-2010, 06:17 PM
I just threw up in my mouth..

I'd be curious as to what you did during the Boone/Miley/Narron years.

brm7675
09-16-2010, 06:42 PM
I'd be curious as to what you did during the Boone/Miley/Narron years.

Boone was an idiot, both Miley and Narron did not have the talent. I had no issues with either of them.

defender
09-16-2010, 07:15 PM
What people are failing to grasp, is that managing people and strategy are not separate. Being a players manager is not slapping them on the butt and making friendly, but the decisions you choose to make. Actions speak louder than words. A fan may see a player as the sum of his stats, but obviously, that is not how a player sees himself.

A players manager, must make decisions based on players. It might be frustrating, to a fan, when Baker seems to ignore or not understand their pet stat, but it can be no other way. The moment Baker puts together a lineup based on WAR and/or busts out some TLR style strategy, he ceases to be a players manager.

kfm
09-16-2010, 08:11 PM
I have no problem with what Dusty said, and I actually don't have a problem with fans criticizing him. It's every fans right to have an opinion and complain that's what fans do, and Dusty is not the first nor the last sports figure to basically say fans are fickle beings whose minds change on a constant basis with the only constant being they are unhappy with something. Players, coaches and managers over the years have in many different ways said that they know best about how to run their team, play their sport etc.. The idea that this so called outburst by Dusty shows yet another flaw in the eyes of people who think he is just flawed as a manager ignores the reality that so many people have done the exact same thing. As a matter of fact, the Tampa manager said the exact same thing earlier this year when his fan based voiced many of the exact same criticisms that are voiced about Baker. He said it much stronger however specifically criticizing the fans. I have heard Jim Tressel, in a very polite tone of course, basically say the exact same thing, and Bobby Knight has the famous bury him upside down so his critics can kiss his, well you know. So lets not do yet another, Dusty is the only person who would ever do something like this or this just shows yet another flaw. If you think anyone who does this is simply wrong, that is completely legit, but if you want to just once again pick Dusty out ignore reality and say he is the only person whose done this then you are going through your sports life with blinders on.

LeDoux
09-16-2010, 08:18 PM
What people are failing to grasp, is that managing people and strategy are not separate. Being a players manager is not slapping them on the butt and making friendly, but the decisions you choose to make. Actions speak louder than words. A fan may see a player as the sum of his stats, but obviously, that is not how a player sees himself.

A players manager, must make decisions based on players. It might be frustrating, to a fan, when Baker seems to ignore or not understand their pet stat, but it can be no other way. The moment Baker puts together a lineup based on WAR and/or busts out some TLR style strategy, he ceases to be a players manager.

I think many of us have a firm grasp of the people/task issues in leadership. What I am frustrated with is black and white decision making that seems to be involved in this case. There are options other than "fire" or "stick with" Cordero. Why not use someone else occasionaly? It could easily be explained by a desire to keep everyone fresh and sharp. Baker has made this an issue with his inflexibility. Today's comments only serve to remove the middle ground.

zacharync
09-16-2010, 08:30 PM
please, listening to dusty can give someone a headache. He wants to make seem like putting together a lineup card is like Brain Surgery or something. it's not, it's a very simple process, this is a very simple game to manage, in fact probably the easiest of the major sports to manage.

How did he make it seem like making a lineup card isn't a simple process.

Explain how it's easier than coaching basketball?

Stray
09-16-2010, 08:31 PM
I think many of us have a firm grasp of the people/task issues in leadership. What I am frustrated with is black and white decision making that seems to be involved in this case. There are options other than "fire" or "stick with" Cordero. Why not use someone else occasionaly? It could easily be explained by a desire to keep everyone fresh and sharp. Baker has made this an issue with his inflexibility. Today's comments only serve to remove the middle ground.

With the type of manager Dusty is, do you really expect him to say otherwise to the media? He is always protecting his players. He knows just as well as anyone how ineffective Cordero has been. He kinda left the door open for other options, but explained why an outright switch could backfire and hurt this team.

With Rhodes unable to pitch as often as is required by a closer and Chapman's inexperience/struggles with people on base, is there really a better option? Masset maybe...closer by committee? With the pressure of playoff baseball, I'm not sure I like an experiment there.

If Cordero continues to struggle he will force our hand come playoff time, but in the mean time, in the best interest of this ballclub, it's worth it to see if he can hit a hot streak.

zacharync
09-16-2010, 08:33 PM
Boone was an idiot, both Miley and Narron did not have the talent. I had no issues with either of them.

Talent is always in the eye of the beholder with your arguments.

Can you remind where we were predicted to be at this point in the season? I have a feeling it's not a dissimilar projection to the Miley/Narron teams.

GIDP
09-16-2010, 08:59 PM
I enjoyed the days when Keppinger and JHJ were at the top of the order not because of speed or contact, but because they got on base a ton. Getting on base is the most important part of baseball, then accumulating a ton of bases be it by doubles or the equivalent in any other form of a hit.

Natty Redlocks
09-16-2010, 09:52 PM
I enjoyed the days when Keppinger and JHJ were at the top of the order not because of speed or contact, but because they got on base a ton. Getting on base is the most important part of baseball, then accumulating a ton of bases be it by doubles or the equivalent in any other form of a hit.

Yes. It would be nice to have some OBPs above .320 in front of Votto. Would it really be so preposterous to put Hanigan/ Hernandez (.382/.367) in the 2 hole?

GIDP
09-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Yes. It would be nice to have some OBPs above .320 in front of Votto. Would it really be so preposterous to put Hanigan/ Hernandez (.382/.367) in the 2 hole?

The options are limited but Bruce and Stubbs wouldnt be a bad fit unless stubbs starts to slump again. He of all the players on the team does have enough speed to counter act his sketchy at times OBP. As long as it doesnt dip below .300 for a long period of time.

BAKER12
09-17-2010, 01:27 AM
I find it puzzling that a team that has not been in the playoffs for a long time is on the verge and there are people who are dying to get rid of the manager. Very strange, my gut says he is the Dodgers manager in 2011.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-17-2010, 01:42 AM
I have no problem with what Dusty said, and I actually don't have a problem with fans criticizing him. It's every fans right to have an opinion and complain that's what fans do, and Dusty is not the first nor the last sports figure to basically say fans are fickle beings whose minds change on a constant basis with the only constant being they are unhappy with something. Players, coaches and managers over the years have in many different ways said that they know best about how to run their team, play their sport etc.. The idea that this so called outburst by Dusty shows yet another flaw in the eyes of people who think he is just flawed as a manager ignores the reality that so many people have done the exact same thing. As a matter of fact, the Tampa manager said the exact same thing earlier this year when his fan based voiced many of the exact same criticisms that are voiced about Baker. He said it much stronger however specifically criticizing the fans. I have heard Jim Tressel, in a very polite tone of course, basically say the exact same thing, and Bobby Knight has the famous bury him upside down so his critics can kiss his, well you know. So lets not do yet another, Dusty is the only person who would ever do something like this or this just shows yet another flaw. If you think anyone who does this is simply wrong, that is completely legit, but if you want to just once again pick Dusty out ignore reality and say he is the only person whose done this then you are going through your sports life with blinders on.

Wow you compare Madden to Baker. Here is a major difference in the two. Madden has no expectation. I live in the Tampa area. The fans here don't care about this team. On any given night they don't even know who or where the Rays are playing. Reds fans are some of the most knowledgable in the game. Right there with the Cardinals fans. We understand how the game should be played. We are smart enough to see when a player is strugeling and we are able to see when a guy is playing well.

I am not saying the Rays don't have a good team. they do. But just like the Rays the Reds win inspite of the moves its manager makes not because of.

Mutaman
09-17-2010, 04:30 AM
I wish Baker would spend more time listening to the folks here at Sundreck. I'm sure we would already have 90 wins.

swaisuc
09-17-2010, 10:10 AM
What people are failing to grasp, is that managing people and strategy are not separate. Being a players manager is not slapping them on the butt and making friendly, but the decisions you choose to make. Actions speak louder than words. A fan may see a player as the sum of his stats, but obviously, that is not how a player sees himself.

A players manager, must make decisions based on players. It might be frustrating, to a fan, when Baker seems to ignore or not understand their pet stat, but it can be no other way. The moment Baker puts together a lineup based on WAR and/or busts out some TLR style strategy, he ceases to be a players manager.

Very intelligent post. People around here also seem to think that it is more important to have the OPS in the correct order in the lineup than it is to help the players have a higher OPS by putting them in situations where they are more likely to succeed.

For a classic example, see all the posts about Hannigan's OBP being "wasted" in the 8 hole.

bounty37h
09-17-2010, 10:20 AM
the problem is Dusty doesnt understand what the fans are complaining about, because dusty doesnt care to listen. He only hears what the awful media guys ask him.

Saying "why isnt dickerson playing" when the fans are saying "why are you not playing dickerson ever" isnt the question they are asking.

Dusty needs to grow up and stop blaming the fans for players failures.

I never read a thing saying he blamed fans for players failures, was that in another interview or cut off this one?

GIDP
09-17-2010, 10:47 AM
I never read a thing saying he blamed fans for players failures, was that in another interview or cut off this one?

He instead of seeing players struggles, used the fans as a reason why he does what he does. Thats what I'm getting at.

Its not that Gomes is struggling, its that fans wanted Dickerson to play and look at that they were wrong! They dont know about Gomes, he will get out of it.

Thats basically how I interpreted all of this. Hes basically saying the fans cant tell Cordero is bad because they were soured on Masset when he was stinking up the joint 1 week into the season.

Hes pushing the players struggles off onto the fans just not knowing anything. See my point now?

texasdave
09-17-2010, 11:05 AM
I never read a thing saying he blamed fans for players failures, was that in another interview or cut off this one?

This is a direct Dusty Baker quote from FayBlog:


ďIf a situation like (David) Price in Tampa Bay in the playoffs comes up, weíll see. In the meantime, letís not stir up. Theres already enough stirring up when he comes in the game. As soon as he gives up one ball or one hit, the boos start. That canít help.

He didn't directly come out and blame the fans for Cordero's failures, but this quote certainly hints at it. Would you agree?

brm7675
09-17-2010, 11:07 AM
How did he make it seem like making a lineup card isn't a simple process.

Explain how it's easier than coaching basketball?

Basketball is a fluid sport, where changes occur quicker and the plays require planning and practice. Baseball is not a fluid sport, and is a simple game, the pitcher pitches the ball, if the batter fields the ball they attempt to get him out. there is no time clock so no reason to rush. Baseball is not a tough game to manage.

GIDP
09-17-2010, 11:07 AM
If Cordero cant handle pitching with Boo's to the Pirates and the Dbacks with 3 run leads. Maybe that a sign he wont be able to pitch anywhere in the playoffs. If that little bit of pressure is throwing him off, I cant imagine what type of flames hes going to turn the field into.

brm7675
09-17-2010, 11:09 AM
Talent is always in the eye of the beholder with your arguments.

Can you remind where we were predicted to be at this point in the season? I have a feeling it's not a dissimilar projection to the Miley/Narron teams.

You can't really be claiming that either Miley or Narron had anywhere near the overall talent that dusty is now lucky enough to have? Please, both Miley and narron had 1 -2 good players and a bunch of role players, while Dusty has 1 STUD, 3-4 great players and a number of good players.

brm7675
09-17-2010, 11:10 AM
I find it puzzling that a team that has not been in the playoffs for a long time is on the verge and there are people who are dying to get rid of the manager. Very strange, my gut says he is the Dodgers manager in 2011.

We can only hope..:beerme:

Natty Redlocks
09-17-2010, 04:31 PM
If Cordero cant handle pitching with Boo's to the Pirates and the Dbacks with 3 run leads. Maybe that a sign he wont be able to pitch anywhere in the playoffs. If that little bit of pressure is throwing him off, I cant imagine what type of flames hes going to turn the field into.

The point, though, is how is the booing supposed to help? I'm not telling anyone they're not allowed to boo. But I'm allowed to say that they're stupid if they do. I guarantee it doesn't help, and there's at least a chance it makes things worse. And these are likely the same class acts who booed Aaron Harang, which makes them monumental losers in my book. Like, worse than Cubs fans losers.

GIDP
09-17-2010, 04:50 PM
The point, though, is how is the booing supposed to help? I'm not telling anyone they're not allowed to boo. But I'm allowed to say that they're stupid if they do. I guarantee it doesn't help, and there's at least a chance it makes things worse. And these are likely the same class acts who booed Aaron Harang, which makes them monumental losers in my book. Like, worse than Cubs fans losers.

Maybe the Boo's dont help, but you cant expect fans to be emotionless robots either. The fact is if Cordero is that sensitive to it, then maybe thats a sign that you shouldnt rely on a guy who cant handle pressure that little.

1990REDS
09-17-2010, 05:16 PM
Still amazes me when professional athletes whos job consist of playing in front of large groups of people are bothered by fans booing. I guess its human nature but you would think a veteran like cordero would be used to it by now.

Kingspoint
09-18-2010, 06:40 PM
We can only hope..:beerme:

So much for that hope as Donnie Baseball officially received the job.

GIDP
09-18-2010, 07:37 PM
Dusty Baker admitted today that Phillips has been hurt and is just now starting to feel better.

Awesome.

texasdave
09-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Dusty Baker admitted today that Phillips has been hurt and is just now starting to feel better.

Awesome.

Feelings will be hurt, but never Brandon's. I wonder if Valaika could have posted an OPS better than .323 for those 64 PA. Dusty Baker - Super Genius.

bornready
09-18-2010, 08:57 PM
This is a direct Dusty Baker quote from FayBlog:



He didn't directly come out and blame the fans for Cordero's failures, but this quote certainly hints at it. Would you agree?

seriously overanalyzing here...do you think it gives anyone any confidence at all when his home crowd starts to boo him?

texasdave
09-18-2010, 11:33 PM
seriously overanalyzing here...do you think it gives anyone any confidence at all when his home crowd starts to boo him?

Ergo, Baker is blaming the crowd. Thanks for pointing that out again.

Stray
09-18-2010, 11:41 PM
Double standards everywhere on this board.

On one hand, Dusty deserves no credit for the teams success since it's all players, and managing a baseball team is simple. On the other hand, hes to blame for losses, since only when we lose does his managing impact games.

He's saying the truth about boo'ing and how fans have short memories. If you disagree then you're not paying attention. He cannot have a short memory and his job is to think more big picture than the normal fan. If he explains this to us then he's putting all of the blame on the fans, if he doesn't, then he's an idiot that can't explain what he's doing.

It's actually funny to read.

Kiss the Baby00
09-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Double standards everywhere on this board.

On one hand, Dusty deserves no credit for the teams success since it's all players, and managing a baseball team is simple. On the other hand, hes to blame for losses, since only when we lose does his managing impact games.

He's saying the truth about boo'ing and how fans have short memories. If you disagree then you're not paying attention. He cannot have a short memory and his job is to think more big picture than the normal fan. If he explains this to us then he's putting all of the blame on the fans, if he doesn't, then he's an idiot that can't explain what he's doing.

It's actually funny to read.


:thumbup:

you are a smart fan

bornready
09-19-2010, 03:46 PM
Double standards everywhere on this board.

On one hand, Dusty deserves no credit for the teams success since it's all players, and managing a baseball team is simple. On the other hand, hes to blame for losses, since only when we lose does his managing impact games.

He's saying the truth about boo'ing and how fans have short memories. If you disagree then you're not paying attention. He cannot have a short memory and his job is to think more big picture than the normal fan. If he explains this to us then he's putting all of the blame on the fans, if he doesn't, then he's an idiot that can't explain what he's doing.

It's actually funny to read.

Agreed 100%

kfm
09-19-2010, 04:59 PM
Double standards everywhere on this board.

On one hand, Dusty deserves no credit for the teams success since it's all players, and managing a baseball team is simple. On the other hand, hes to blame for losses, since only when we lose does his managing impact games.

He's saying the truth about boo'ing and how fans have short memories. If you disagree then you're not paying attention. He cannot have a short memory and his job is to think more big picture than the normal fan. If he explains this to us then he's putting all of the blame on the fans, if he doesn't, then he's an idiot that can't explain what he's doing.

It's actually funny to read.

Nice post. Well put. Just know that you will forever be branded by the haters as a baker apologist who knows nothing about the game. Your post will be seen as just as foolish as the in game managing of Dusty.

sean
09-19-2010, 05:04 PM
Ergo, Baker is blaming the crowd. Thanks for pointing that out again.

Oh come on, you can't really believe what you're writing.

Saying that booing can't help and putting all of the blame on the fans are two separate things.

I realize it might be fun to jump on the dog pile and all but at least make a sound argument.

Stray
09-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Nice post. Well put. Just know that you will forever be branded by the haters as a baker apologist who knows nothing about the game. Your post will be seen as just as foolish as the in game managing of Dusty.

Lol, that's fine. If I'm branded for pointing out the obvious, then I suppose I'll gladly take it.

kfm
09-19-2010, 05:27 PM
Feelings will be hurt, but never Brandon's. I wonder if Valaika could have posted an OPS better than .323 for those 64 PA. Dusty Baker - Super Genius.

You are really criticizing Dusty for sticking with his all star second baseman when he is struggling. They need him in order to win in the post season and they need him to get right. How does he do that from the bench? I could see your position a little better if the reds were up by a game or two and not nursing a six to eight game lead, but the idea of just benching Phillips is a pretty silly one. Finally, why is it every time Dusty does something with a player that you guys don't like it is because he does not want to hurt anyone's feelings. There is zero support for this most used justification by the Haters, it is never because Dusty has a long term view, or because he is patient or because he thinks it is what is best for the team or for any other reason it is always because he does not want to hurt anyones feelings unless of course when it is a player you think should be playing and then it is simply never mentioned.

texasdave
09-19-2010, 05:29 PM
You are really criticizing Dusty for sticking with his all star second baseman when he is struggling. They need him in order to win in the post season and they need him to get right. How does he do that from the bench? I could see your position a little better if the reds were up by a game or two and not nursing a six to eight game lead, but the idea of just benching Phillips is a pretty silly one. Finally, why is it every time Dusty does something with a player that you guys don't like it is because he does not want to hurt anyone's feelings. There is zero support for this most used justification by the Haters, it is never because Dusty has a long term view, or because he is patient or because he thinks it is what is best for the team or for any other reason it is always because he does not want to hurt anyones feelings unless of course when it is a player you think should be playing and then it is simply never mentioned.

redsfan_12
09-20-2010, 02:02 AM
You are really criticizing Dusty for sticking with his all star second baseman when he is struggling. They need him in order to win in the post season and they need him to get right. How does he do that from the bench? I could see your position a little better if the reds were up by a game or two and not nursing a six to eight game lead, but the idea of just benching Phillips is a pretty silly one. Finally, why is it every time Dusty does something with a player that you guys don't like it is because he does not want to hurt anyone's feelings. There is zero support for this most used justification by the Haters, it is never because Dusty has a long term view, or because he is patient or because he thinks it is what is best for the team or for any other reason it is always because he does not want to hurt anyones feelings unless of course when it is a player you think should be playing and then it is simply never mentioned.

well said.

improbus
09-20-2010, 10:43 PM
We love to hate on Dusty for his mistakes, but how many times has he pushed the right button? He has developed the deepest team in the NL by keeping Janish, Cairo, and the rest of the bench working. He moved Phillips out of the 4 hole and moved Stubbs to the bottom of the lineup (where he should be right now). He has handled Hanigan/Hernandez very well and kept both of them fresh. He has been forced to completely overhaul his bullpen and it is in much better shape than it was at the beginning of the year. I understand Dusty's faults, but I have a hard time criticizing a guy who has us in 1st place in September.

GIDP
09-20-2010, 11:22 PM
It only took dusty 3 years to stop hitting him 4th.

He doesnt play Janish, even when Cabrera was dealing with leg, feet, and side issues.

Drew Stubbs OPS is basically the same as Gomes, yet Stubbs normally bats 7th, and Gomes bats no lower than 5th.

Dusty has done the catchers good, but its also because they are good catchers.

The things Dusty has control over when it comes to game management he's severely flawed in.

In the clubhouse he might be great, and it might get better numbers on the field, but like I said when it comes to the field, he loses more games than he wins in my opinion.

texasdave
09-20-2010, 11:33 PM
Baker buried Janish early in the season. Is there another Cincinnati Reds team that I am not aware of?

Kingspoint
09-21-2010, 01:16 AM
We love to hate on Dusty for his mistake.

Nobody loves hating on Dusty for his mistakes. It's no fun to have a Manager like him. He makes it more difficult to support the REDS. I can think of dozens of Managers who wouldn't make me feel that way, where I could just enjoy the team and enjoy the Manager.