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Number_Fourteen
09-18-2010, 06:31 PM
I really like Alonso a LOT! But...

It seems rather evident here (photo below), why Yonder cannot play the outfield. I do take into account that we all have different body types (see Rick Reuschel). But, for a young, very well-paid athlete, this appears to be sheer neglect.

Simply put, he has the luxury of 24/7 assistance of all the best trainers, and nutritionists that money can buy, and can remake that body if he is determined to do so. Yes, nobody can teach instincts in the outfield, but I will bet the farm he would greatly improve his jump, speed & mobility, and possibly crack the line up as a LF'er.

Frankly, if Joey Votto plays my position, I do anything necessary to crack the lineup by other means. And, to me, it doesn't appear as if Alonso has placed himself in a position to crack the current lineup as a starting player, outside of 1st base. At this point, I see DH written all over him.

Prepare. Merely taking fungos in the outfield isn't going to cut it.

malcontent
09-18-2010, 08:43 PM
Whoa. He makes a BIG baby.

Uh, I thought he had actually trained a bit with A-Rod.

Better start back up.

DocRed
09-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Dude is plain fat. If there is one thing I cannot stand is PROFESSIONAL athletes who can't control their weight. I mean come on...it's your friggin job.

757690
09-18-2010, 10:38 PM
Dude is plain fat. If there is one thing I cannot stand is PROFESSIONAL athletes who can't control there weight. I mean come on...it's your friggin job.

In the words of John Kruk, "He ain't an athlete, he's a ballplayer."

And this guy really was just a disgrace to the game...

http://www.go-nfo.com/polls/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/BabeRuth.jpg

Pony Boy
09-18-2010, 10:49 PM
Alonso is way fatter than Ruth. Ruth was 6'2 and 215 lbs. Alonso is 6'2 and at least 230, although apparently he is still listed at 210.

Eric the Red
09-18-2010, 10:57 PM
Nobody will care what Alonso weighs if he hits .300 with 25 HR's next season. The Reds are not going to get equal value for him on the trade market and aren't about to give him away considering what they have invested in him. Either he or Votto will be in left field next year.

GIDP
09-18-2010, 11:03 PM
Alonso is a big kid. I dont know if he can really do much of anything to change that. It would be similar to asking Cabrera to grow 4 inches.

757690
09-18-2010, 11:09 PM
Alonso is way fatter than Ruth. Ruth was 6'2 and 215 lbs. Alonso is 6'2 and at least 230, although apparently he is still listed at 210.

If Ruth was 6'2 215, than Alonso is under 200.

RedLegsToday
09-18-2010, 11:10 PM
Ruth was 6'2 and 215 lbs

Maybe when he came up. By the mid 20's he had to be at least 250 and by 1930 he was wearing something like size 46 pants. Ruth got real fat. Never stopped him from hitting though.

GIDP
09-18-2010, 11:12 PM
I think Yonder Alonso has 200 pounds of legs. He has a slight belly, but hes got a big base. I have always had big legs, and trust me you couldnt lose leg muscles. Made it impossible for me to buy pants as a kid.

malcontent
09-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Either he or Votto will be in left field next year.
Judging from that picture, it won't be Yonder.

Eric the Red
09-18-2010, 11:54 PM
Judging from that picture, it won't be Yonder.

I agree it will be Votto in left field next season. Tonight was the first time I've seen Alonso at first and he made a couple of nice picks, one on the Cabrera throw and the other on Wallace's ground out. We have witnessed how hard Joey works on his defense and that will definitely continue if he moves to left field, we can only hope Yonder puts the effort into his defense because he can certainly hit the baseball.

Number_Fourteen
09-19-2010, 12:05 AM
I'd guess that Alonso in his current state, could be a redux of Greg Luzinski in LF, should he be relocated to the outfield next season.

Babe Ruth was trim and fit when he first arrived on the scene (see Red Sox, early Yankees pix), btw. In addition, the game was entirely different than the current times. So, no comparison... plus, as good as Yonder seems, he's not Ruthian.

The notion that he's simply a big boy doesn't fly either. Neither does the idea, to become more fit, you must also sacrifice muscle... in this case, leg muscle. Personally, I went from big boned, big-boy status, to very lean and fit. Much stronger than I've ever been, and fully transformed in my early 40's. So, I know it's possible. I had no motivation as far as money, or other material items. It was simply something I set my mind on doing. Alonso's in his early 20's, so I cannot fathom that if a fat old guy like myself did it, he could not.

I don't want to disparage or put down Alonso at all, just calling it as I see it. If he wants a starting job with the Reds next year, I'd get to work on converting to the outfield, as I really doubt that Votto is going to be yanked off of 1st base.

Like Kruk, he might not be an athlete, but more than likely, he will be a ballplayer without a position on the Cincinnati Reds.

Number_Fourteen
09-19-2010, 12:13 AM
I agree it will be Votto in left field next season. Tonight was the first time I've seen Alonso at first and he made a couple of nice picks, one on the Cabrera throw and the other on Wallace's ground out. We have witnessed how hard Joey works on his defense and that will definitely continue if he moves to left field, we can only hope Yonder puts the effort into his defense because he can certainly hit the baseball.

That would be ideal, Eric the Red. But, do you think Votto will do this on his own, be asked to, or told to do it? I cannot imagine it being the latter. Also, does it not slightly lower his value on the free agent market, moving from an infield position to LF? I happen to think Votto is a pretty darn good 1st baseman as well, and I wouldn't be thrilled with "messing with success", so to speak. But, if Joey can and wants to do it, then great.

Votto seems like the type of guy that just gets it, and realizes the Reds are that much better with Alonso in the lineup, and might start taking fungos without being asked. Let's hope, somehow, this can happen, while keeping good chemistry and balance within the team.

DocRed
09-19-2010, 11:28 AM
There is no chance in hell that Votto plays OF next year. If he were willing to, he would have at least tried the OF already. Yonder needs to slim down and learn OF or he will not be with the Reds next year IMO.

Eric the Red
09-19-2010, 11:58 AM
But, do you think Votto will do this on his own, be asked to, or told to do it?

I think that he will be told to move to left. It's evident the Reds front office does not feel Alonso is capable of playing left field at a major league level or else he would have played there all year in the minors. Walt's biggest priority this offseason imo, is to lock Joey up long term buying out his arbitration years and keeping him a Red through his prime (at least 5 more years). During those negotiations I think Walt will lay out his 5-year plan for the franchise to Joey and that will include moving him to left field. And being the consummate professional and true team player that Votto is, I think he'll take $65 mil for 5 years and trade the first baseman's mitt for an outfielder's glove.

UC_Ken
09-19-2010, 01:11 PM
You don't tell an MVP to move positions. If you feel it's necessary you ask him to and only do it if he's convinced. I wouldn't do it period though, he's way too successful where he is now. If he's worried about his defensive performance whose to say that his bat doesn't suffer.

Old NDN
09-19-2010, 01:19 PM
I think Alonso is the main piece of a trade that could bring a needed piece to the team ie. a TOR pitcher, a SS, or established OF. I wouldn't mess with success w/Votto. Alonso hasn't had enough time to prove anything. MLB is full of "potential" stars.

Hustleman
09-19-2010, 03:40 PM
I think Alonso is the main piece of a trade that could bring a needed piece to the team ie. a TOR pitcher, a SS, or established OF. I wouldn't mess with success w/Votto. Alonso hasn't had enough time to prove anything. MLB is full of "potential" stars.

Agreed.

bshall2105
09-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Offer Votto a big money, long term contract and he'll go play left in a second. Slide Alonso into first base, and we have the best lineup that this orginization could produce. The outfield defense wouldn't be hurt at all, and if Adam Dunn can play first I wouldn't be worried about the infield defense taking a step back either.

malcontent
09-19-2010, 07:12 PM
You don't tell an MVP to move positions. If you feel it's necessary you ask him to and only do it if he's convinced. I wouldn't do it period though, he's way too successful where he is now. If he's worried about his defensive performance whose to say that his bat doesn't suffer.
Agreed.

kfm
09-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Hasn't it already been established on this board in the past, that if Votto cared about the team, he would voluntarily move to left field. Hasn't it already been established if Dusty, or whoever is here next year, was not a weak manager who cared so much for players feelings they would order him to do it? So based upon precendent Votto should be in left field unless he is selfish or the manager cares too much about his feelings;)

Number_Fourteen
09-20-2010, 12:32 AM
Hasn't it already been established on this board in the past, that if Votto cared about the team, he would voluntarily move to left field. Hasn't it already been established if Dusty, or whoever is here next year, was not a weak manager who cared so much for players feelings they would order him to do it? So based upon precendent Votto should be in left field unless he is selfish or the manager cares too much about his feelings;)

Whoa!! You're suggesting that Votto doesn't care about the team, because he'd rather remain at his natural position, first base? And, as for it being "established on this board", that's laughable. You do mean this all, tongue-in-cheek, right?

Prf15
09-20-2010, 01:05 AM
You don't tell an MVP to move positions. If you feel it's necessary you ask him to and only do it if he's convinced. I wouldn't do it period though, he's way too successful where he is now. If he's worried about his defensive performance whose to say that his bat doesn't suffer.

Pujols was primarily a outfielder when called up. It wasn't until his 4th year in the league when he made the full time switch to 1st.

If moving Votto to LF and having Alonso play 1st is the best the team can do then so be it. Joey works hard and I am sure he would work just as hard if he was told to try out LF. It is all about what is best for the team.

Natty Redlocks
09-20-2010, 07:50 AM
What if they asked Votto to move to left temporarily? So they can find out about Alonso one way or the other. If he hits, his trade value skyrockets and they can get something good for him. If not, they go get a left fielder and stick YA on the bench, or send him down. Either way, Votto is back at first the following season at the latest. Or they could at least tell him that to begin with, then never get around to moving him back.

SidneySlicker
09-20-2010, 01:15 PM
What if they asked Votto to move to left temporarily? So they can find out about Alonso one way or the other. If he hits, his trade value skyrockets and they can get something good for him. If not, they go get a left fielder and stick YA on the bench, or send him down. Either way, Votto is back at first the following season at the latest. Or they could at least tell him that to begin with, then never get around to moving him back.

Yeah lets ask the all star first baseman to move to the outfield so you can figure out whether a rookie can field first or not. Thats what spring training and triple A are for. Even if they find out he can field first are they going to move Votto permanently? I don't think so. You develop him where he best translates to the majors and if he doesn't fit in the plans of your club, then you trade him for a piece that does.

ol'Sparky
09-20-2010, 02:36 PM
trade votto and keep alonso !!

mckbearcat48
09-20-2010, 02:38 PM
Pujols was primarily a outfielder when called up. It wasn't until his 4th year in the league when he made the full time switch to 1st.

If moving Votto to LF and having Alonso play 1st is the best the team can do then so be it. Joey works hard and I am sure he would work just as hard if he was told to try out LF. It is all about what is best for the team.

Actually, Pujols was called up as a 3B (drafted as SS) to replace the immortal Bobby Bonilla. He was not great at 3B, but serviceable. He was an OK OF as well before moving to first base. If the bat plays, they'll find a spot for him.

Hustleman
09-20-2010, 04:29 PM
trade votto and keep alonso !!

trade the probable mvp for an unproven commodity. makes sense

GIDP
09-20-2010, 04:31 PM
trade the probable mvp for an unproven commodity. makes sense
If the return fixes 2 holes like LF and SS, the drop off might actually be good. Not to mention cheaper.

Hustleman
09-20-2010, 04:33 PM
If the return fixes 2 holes like LF and SS, the drop off might actually be good. Not to mention cheaper.

votto could definitely bring in some good pieces, but i havent seen nearly enough from alonso to feel comfortable with making that move.

GIDP
09-20-2010, 04:35 PM
votto could definitely bring in some good pieces, but i havent seen nearly enough from alonso to feel comfortable with making that move.

Of course because hes only pinch hit. Dusty wont play him in the field because of Votto and wont try him in left because Gomes is something or something.

kfm
09-20-2010, 07:12 PM
Whoa!! You're suggesting that Votto doesn't care about the team, because he'd rather remain at his natural position, first base? And, as for it being "established on this board", that's laughable. You do mean this all, tongue-in-cheek, right?

Yes, I am joking.

jfar23
09-20-2010, 07:49 PM
I understand this is an organization running Gomes out there in LF but I feel like the new regime values defense too much to run either Alonso or Votto out there in LF for any extended period of time. Personally, I do as well.

The writing is on the wall this season with how they have handled Alonso. There is no way they are moving Joey Votto, one of the best hitters in the game and the most important and valuable member of the team to a new position. Plus, he has really turned himself into a nice fielder at first base. He picks almost everything.

ol'Sparky
09-20-2010, 10:43 PM
trade the probable mvp for an unproven commodity. makes sense


thank you !!:D

Number_Fourteen
09-21-2010, 01:05 AM
Yes, I am joking.

LOL Good, 'cause I nearly spit out my Skyline 4-way!:p:

Old NDN
09-23-2010, 12:47 PM
While it's an extremely small sample, Alonso looks way overmatched at this point. His (and Fransisco's) swings are the same no matter what pitch, location, or speed. Let'r rip! No adjustment, just hoping to run into something.

DocRed
09-23-2010, 01:35 PM
While it's an extremely small sample, Alonso looks way overmatched at this point. His (and Fransisco's) swings are the same no matter what pitch, location, or speed. Let'r rip! No adjustment, just hoping to run into something.

Pretty much agree, I haven't seen anything from him that has excited me yet.

defender
09-23-2010, 02:04 PM
Of course because hes only pinch hit. Dusty wont play him in the field because of Votto and wont try him in left because Gomes is something or something.

At this point, Alonso has shown nothing. He wouldn't start in left, even if he could field, and there is no reason to make plans to move Votto.

Hopefully Alonso's time on the Reds, will convince him, he needs to work a lot harder to become a LFer. It also seems he needs to work a lot harder on his hitting.

BigRed
09-23-2010, 03:14 PM
There is no way the Reds move Votto from 1B. Alonso will be at AAA next year or traded for a needed piece.

Old NDN
10-04-2010, 11:57 AM
Update: After reading the stories and comments about the chance of locking up Votto long term, I think I would hold on to Alonso. Another year in Triple A wouldn't hurt. Insurance if they can't sign Votto beyond 2011.

BLEEDS
10-04-2010, 04:17 PM
Maybe Alonso can bat over .200 before further talk of moving triple crown chasing mvp's out of position. Mmkay?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk

BLEEDS
10-04-2010, 04:21 PM
In the words of John Kruk, "He ain't an athlete, he's a ballplayer."

And this guy really was just a disgrace to the game...

http://www.go-nfo.com/polls/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/BabeRuth.jpg

So every fat underacheiver gets compared to Ruth now?!?!

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk

bshall2105
10-04-2010, 06:16 PM
Maybe Alonso can bat over .200 before further talk of moving triple crown chasing mvp's out of position. Mmkay?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk

Well, he's batting .207 so let the talks begin.

redsrolen
10-04-2010, 06:28 PM
I heard so much about Alonso on redzone, I wondered what was all the fuss?
I'm still wondering, what was all the fuss about? (really great at bats????):confused:

757690
10-04-2010, 10:10 PM
Alonso projects to be around a .900 OPS hitter at best. He has never hit that high in the minors, but that seems to be his ceiling. It's a nice ceiling.

Votto has averaged a 1.000 OPS the last two years, and there is no reason to think that he is not a 1.000 OPS hitter.

The difference in runs created between a .900 and a 1.000 OPS is around 30 runs, or 3 wins. That is huge. That is about what a league average players produces. So losing Votto and replacing him with Alonso, assuming Alonso can OPS .900, is like losing Drew Stubbs and replacing him with nobody.

And that is assuming that their defense is the same.

So basically, if the Reds trade Votto, they would have to get back at least a player as good as Drew Stubbs, who is ready to produce right now, just to break even, and Alonso would have to OPS .900 and play the same defense as Votto. If Alonso hits .850. OPS, which is where he is projected by many to hit, then the Reds would have to get a player like Drew Stubbs plus an Elvis Andrews to make it even. I think Votto would bring that, but then you are just moving furniture.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is the effect that losing Votto would have on the lineup. Having a 1.000 OPS guy there in the middle effects how nearly every other hitter is pitched to, it changes the entire dynamic of the lineup. For a decade, the problem that the Reds had on offense was that they had a lineup full of 5-7 hitters. Lots of guys who could OPS between .800 and .900, but no one who could be the hammer in the middle of the lineup. Now that the Reds have one, people seriously want to trade him away?

BLEEDS
10-04-2010, 11:18 PM
Alonso projects to be around a .900 OPS hitter at best. He has never hit that high in the minors, but that seems to be his ceiling. It's a nice ceiling.

Votto has averaged a 1.000 OPS the last two years, and there is no reason to think that he is not a 1.000 OPS hitter.

The difference in runs created between a .900 and a 1.000 OPS is around 30 runs, or 3 wins. That is huge. That is about what a league average players produces. So losing Votto and replacing him with Alonso, assuming Alonso can OPS .900, is like losing Drew Stubbs and replacing him with nobody.

And that is assuming that their defense is the same.

So basically, if the Reds trade Votto, they would have to get back at least a player as good as Drew Stubbs, who is ready to produce right now, just to break even, and Alonso would have to OPS .900 and play the same defense as Votto. If Alonso hits .850. OPS, which is where he is projected by many to hit, then the Reds would have to get a player like Drew Stubbs plus an Elvis Andrews to make it even. I think Votto would bring that, but then you are just moving furniture.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is the effect that losing Votto would have on the lineup. Having a 1.000 OPS guy there in the middle effects how nearly every other hitter is pitched to, it changes the entire dynamic of the lineup. For a decade, the problem that the Reds had on offense was that they had a lineup full of 5-7 hitters. Lots of guys who could OPS between .800 and .900, but no one who could be the hammer in the middle of the lineup. Now that the Reds have one, people seriously want to trade him away?

Or move him to LF. IF Alonso - and this looks like a REALLY REALLY REALLY BIG BIG IF - can OPS .900, he can play LF and butcher the heck out of LF for all I care.
Otherwise, you'd be wise to trade ALONSO and get an Elvis Andrews/Drew Stubbs/SS prospect, etc...
But I guess that would be too easy. Rather trade or move a proven MVP and Triple Crown contender to make room for a proven nothing.

:bang::bang::bang:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

gilpdawg
10-05-2010, 01:28 AM
Pujols was primarily a outfielder when called up. It wasn't until his 4th year in the league when he made the full time switch to 1st.

If moving Votto to LF and having Alonso play 1st is the best the team can do then so be it. Joey works hard and I am sure he would work just as hard if he was told to try out LF. It is all about what is best for the team.

Pujols moved because of his bad elbow so that's not a good comparison, imo.