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kaldaniels
09-18-2010, 11:24 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_324aa4d7-ff34-5706-b12a-b1a023d58d00.html (Thanks to Sundeck thread)

I don't know where to go with this...take it away.

Brutus
09-18-2010, 11:26 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_324aa4d7-ff34-5706-b12a-b1a023d58d00.html (Thanks to Sundeck thread)

I don't know where to go with this...take it away.

Is this like if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?

edabbs44
09-18-2010, 11:29 PM
Sounds like a lot of factors here...20 concussions in his life, a lot of concussion discussion happening in sports (specifically the NFL) and a potential retirement after this season anyway due to playing time and performance. It sounds like the concussion that Cueto gave him made his decision a whole lot easier.

Hopefully this isn't spun into how Cueto gave him such a bad concussion that it ended his career. Which probably will take place by some out there.

Good luck Jason.

marcshoe
09-18-2010, 11:35 PM
Any player leaving the dugout to take part in a brawl should be suspended and fined. Brawls aren't fun things, and they aren't sensible things for adults to participate in. They can have serious consequences.

And if you leave the dugout to participate in a brawl of your own volition, are you not in some way responsible for the consequences? As I said at the time, Cueto deserved the suspension he got, even if he was acting in self-defense. This does not, however, leave LaRue blameless.

I don't mean to sound harsh; I was a huge LaRue fan after seeing him completely turn his career around from one season to the next in single A. I just think baseball needs to crack down on brawls. Maybe this will be the impetus.

kaldaniels
09-18-2010, 11:36 PM
Any player leaving the dugout to take part in a brawl should be suspended and fined. Brawls aren't fun things, and they aren't sensible things for adults to participate in. They can have serious consequences.

And if you leave the dugout to participate in a brawl of your own volition, are you not in some way responsible for the consequences? As I said at the time, Cueto deserved the suspension he got, even if he was acting in self-defense. This does not, however, leave LaRue blameless.

Will never happen. Can't allow a brawl to be 9 on 1.

marcshoe
09-18-2010, 11:37 PM
Will never happen. Can't allow a brawl to be 9 on 1.

Then don't even allow it to be one on one. No tolerance. Harsher penalties for those who are not directly involved. this ain't fun and games.

kaldaniels
09-18-2010, 11:38 PM
Then don't even allow it to be one on one. No tolerance. Harsher penalties for those who are not directly involved. this ain't fun and games.

But once it starts...you can't punish guys from running out to stop a beating.

IslandRed
09-18-2010, 11:45 PM
But once it starts...you can't punish guys from running out to stop a beating.

Of course you can. That's the entire rationale behind the "third man in" and "no leaving the bench" rules other sports have -- to keep the scrum limited to two people so the officials have a fighting chance (pun intended) to break it up without it escalating out of control.

Now, you are correct -- in a situation like the Reds-Cards fight, once some of the other Cardinals on the field joined in, then obviously the Reds were going to come out of the dugout to even the odds. But in that situation where it's Phillips and Molina jawing at each other, leading to pushing and shoving -- if the first Cardinal besides Molina who sticks his nose into it automatically draws a lengthy suspension, maybe he doesn't stick his nose into it. Then the Reds don't have to come out of the dugout.

VR
09-18-2010, 11:50 PM
Williamson, Graves, Reese, Casey, Boone, DaMeat.....all fizzled out.

Last men standing, LaRue....and now.....Reyes.

Who had that bet?

Big Klu
09-18-2010, 11:51 PM
http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2007/147/18042227_118036574254.jpg

"Bye."

kaldaniels
09-18-2010, 11:56 PM
Of course you can. That's the entire rationale behind the "third man in" and "no leaving the bench" rules other sports have -- to keep the scrum limited to two people so the officials have a fighting chance (pun intended) to break it up without it escalating out of control.

Now, you are correct -- in a situation like the Reds-Cards fight, once some of the other Cardinals on the field joined in, then obviously the Reds were going to come out of the dugout to even the odds. But in that situation where it's Phillips and Molina jawing at each other, leading to pushing and shoving -- if the first Cardinal besides Molina who sticks his nose into it automatically draws a lengthy suspension, maybe he doesn't stick his nose into it. Then the Reds don't have to come out of the dugout.

Baseball is different than other sports in that unequal numbers of guys from each team are on the field at once. I get your logic, but it is a pipe dream. Just telling it how it is.

Captain Hook
09-19-2010, 12:04 AM
I just don't buy it.Now I won't say that at 36 there's no way Jason couldn't find a job with someone next year although it is likely the case.I just think that saying he's not retiring on his own terms because he was diagnosed with a mild concussion is a bunch of crap.I don't believe this was his first although I can find nothing to support that.I'm no doctor but if NFL guys can recover from this kind of injury in weeks and sometimes days to play one of the most brutal sport out there then a part time catcher playing less then once a week should be able to get back from this at some point if he really wants to(or is wanted to).

My guess is that we'll see him playing again or at least attempting to.

Cedric
09-19-2010, 12:05 AM
Sounds like someone is setting up up for a lawsuit of some kind.

kaldaniels
09-19-2010, 12:06 AM
Sounds like someone is setting up up for a lawsuit of some kind.

Bring it on Jason...he was charging ( or acting aggressive) at Cueto. What Cueto did was bush to a certain extent, but it was not lawsuit worthy.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 12:20 AM
LaRue did a good job as the starting catcher for some horrible Reds teams. I really appreciate what he accomplished here. I wish he had not behaved the way he did in his last season with the Reds. It really left a bad impression of his tenure here. I still remember the walk off homer he hit against the Padres at the end of the 2006 season and how he refused to participate in the team celebration that night. To me, he acted like a baby because he had lost his starting job. His skills had been declining, he probably deserved to lose his job even though it happened while he was hurt. But he didn't take it like the type of leader I had always believed him to be. Instead, he pouted... I lost some, but not all of my respect for him and was glad to see him go before the beginning of the 2007 season.

He didn't hit remotely as well for the Cardinals as he did the Reds, but he retained some value as a backup catcher for a few more years. I guess. In reality, he is kind of symbolic of what is wrong with the Cardinal recipe at the moment... the stars and scrubs philosophy. Overpay for a handful of superstar players and load up on about 20 guys who may or may not be replacement value talent making minimum wage. At this point in his career, Larue probably had no business putting on a major league uniform to begin with. He can thank the arrogance of Tony LaRussa and the stars and scrubs agenda for what he was able to milk at the end there.

Any attempt to villify Jonny Cueto for LaRue's retirement tonight is a joke. He had basically no impact on that team playing behind the premier defensive catcher in the league, and it was actually "time" three years ago. I guess some Cardinal aplogists might continue to propagate the actions of Cueto in this summer's brawl as something more than self defense by propping Jason up as a poster boy. But that is truly a joke.

Again, I appreciate what LaRue accomplished as a solid major league catcher for the Reds during his prime years. Salut.

Chip R
09-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Sounds like someone is setting up up for a lawsuit of some kind.

LaRussa does have a law degree. :eek:

WVRedsFan
09-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Some lawyer somewhere will take this case. Bet on it. Unfortunately, the actions of Cueto and Phillips will be a rallying cry for the Cardinals for years to come. It's stupid. Don't get into a fight unless you are willing to take the risk of getting hurt. Jason got hurt and if he had not participated he could have retired on his own terms. He chose otherwise.

The Operator
09-19-2010, 12:31 AM
Unfortunately, the actions of Cueto and Phillips will be a rallying cry for the Cardinals for years to come. It's stupid. That's fine. It was their rallying cry this year and they tanked, immediately after leaving town. I say let it be their rallying cry for the next 100 years if need be.

So long, Jason. You were part of The Lost Decade, you had a lousy attitude and you certainly won't be missed, not even a little bit. Don't let the door hit you in the butt, or head I suppose, on the way out.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 12:46 AM
That's fine. It was their rallying cry this year and they tanked, immediately after leaving town. I say let it be their rallying cry for the next 100 years if need be.

So long, Jason. You were part of The Lost Decade, you had a lousy attitude and you certainly won't be missed, not even a little bit. Don't let the door hit you in the butt, or head I suppose, on the way out.

Is it really going to be a rallying cry? Or, are they finally going to realize how much their many complaints resemble whining to the general public and decide it might be best to just shut up and deal with the competition between the lines? After this year, it is not just contained to the players and the die hard fans of this game. Casual fans are even starting to notice how many rabbit-eared crybabies surround that franchise. Just this weekend, LaRussa saw it fit to dress down Jack Clark in front of reporters just because Clark, as a member of the media, dared to say something negative about the Cardinals on his radio show. It is absolutely ridiculous, and their failures this year have only served to turn this dysfunctionality into tabloid headlines.

I can't say I am not enjoying this. But, the solution is simple for St. Louis. They need to fire their prima donna manager this winter if they are going to start damage control on the franchise's reputation and begin to implement a business model that promises success into the future.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 12:47 AM
LaRue is a tough guy, and his career has been going south for sometime, a catcher retiring at his age is a lucky guy.

Captain Hook
09-19-2010, 12:54 AM
I know this is completely unrelated, but I wonder if any of the Cards will give the Reds credit for being the better team and coming out on top in the central this year?

The Operator
09-19-2010, 12:55 AM
Is it really going to be a rallying cry? Or, are they finally going to realize how much their many complaints resemble whining to the general public and decide it might be best to just shut up and deal with the competition between the lines? After this year, it is not just contained to the players and the die hard fans of this game. Casual fans are even starting to notice how many rabbit-eared crybabies surround that franchise. Just this weekend, LaRussa saw it fit to dress down Jack Clark in front of reporters just because Clark, as a member of the media, dared to say something negative about the Cardinals on his radio show. It is absolutely ridiculous, and their failures this year have only served to turn this dysfunctionality into tabloid headlines.
I guess we will find out. I'm not sure if they can just suddenly reverse their team culture like that. It's taken years to change the clubhouse culture here in Cincinnati, and that involved a new manager, new owner, new GM, and multiple new player additions. Unless StL fires TLR and purges certain people from their roster, I think they'll continue their whiny baby ways.


I can't say I am not enjoying this. But, the solution is simple for St. Louis. They need to fire their prima donna manager this winter if they are going to start damage control on the franchise's reputation and begin to implement a business model that promises success into the future.Exactly. Which is why I hope they keep bringing him back every year. And also because I want him nowhere near The Queen City if Dusty doesn't come back.

IslandRed
09-19-2010, 12:56 AM
Baseball is different than other sports in that unequal numbers of guys from each team are on the field at once. I get your logic, but it is a pipe dream. Just telling it how it is.

But the field is large and the participants are scattered. In a scrum at home plate or at the mound, the infielders no more have to be in it than the guys in the bullpen or the dugout do. Make the third-man-in penalty punitive enough and they'll get the message.

The one exception would be the "charge the mound" episode, because the catcher is often trying to intervene and gets carried right into things on the mound. So there you have a two-on-one. But there are four umpires right there and the "one" is the guy trying to initiate the fight and usually holds his own in the initial scrap, so in the few seconds the fight should last before the umpires put a stop to it, no one else -- on the field or in the dugout -- should need to get involved. I'm sure they'll want to, but they don't need to.

Of course, this presumes we actually want to stop baseball fights.

The Operator
09-19-2010, 12:56 AM
I know this is completely unrelated, but I wonder if any of the Cards will give the Reds credit for being the better team and coming out on top in the central this year?Some of them already are. Check this place out:

http://birdsonthebat.org

Edit: I now think you must mean the players. I don't know about that, I doubt it though.

Chip R
09-19-2010, 12:56 AM
I know this is completely unrelated, but I wonder if any of the Cards will give the Reds credit for being the better team and coming out on top in the central this year?

Pujols might but I doubt if anyone else will.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 12:58 AM
I know this is completely unrelated, but I wonder if any of the Cards will give the Reds credit for being the better team and coming out on top in the central this year?

My guess is that such a comment would be viewed as treason by the front office of the St. Louis organization, and whoever uttered such nonsense would be exiled this winter to another team. Tony LaRussa does not even want to acknowledge the 1990 Reds as World Champions to this day.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 01:13 AM
I can't say I am not enjoying this. But, the solution is simple for St. Louis. They need to fire their prima donna manager this winter if they are going to start damage control on the franchise's reputation and begin to implement a business model that promises success into the future.

Damage control??

I wish the Reds had the image problem (and the past success) that plague the St Louis franchise.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 01:22 AM
Damage control??

I wish the Reds had the image problem (and the past success) that plague the St Louis franchise.

The Reds are not all that far behind the Cardinals as a seminal franchise that has experienced unprecedented success over the last 140 years. Why should we have an inferiority complex considering the history of baseball in our town? I won't give that up. As I was growing up and the Cardinals were languishing in the old National Leauge East, all I knew about them was that they were an annually bad ballclub that played on plastic grass that camouflaged baseballs on a color television screen. They were too cheap to upgrade their astroturf, they weren't especially good and Lou Brock was the only reason to come see them when they played at Riverfront Stadium. They couldn't draw more than 15,000 people a game back at old Bush back then, and it stayed that bad until Whitey Ball showed up.

As a Reds fan and understanding the history of this game, I don't give an inch to St. Louis just because they have been more successful at adapting to the modern era of the game, or have somehow found a way to win a couple more world championships than us during the hellaciously long history of their franchise. Our history is every bit as signifigant, if not moreso. For myriad reasons. Reds fans have a pass to be proud for what this team has meant to American History, and we don't need to pay St. Louis a toll while passing through their territory on the way to the 2010 NL Central Division Championship.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 01:28 AM
The Reds are not all that far behind the Cardinals as a seminal franchise that has experienced unprecedented success over the last 140 years. Why should we have an inferiority complex considering the history of baseball in our town? I won't give that up. As I was growing up and the Cardinals were languishing in the old National Leauge East, all I knew about them was that they were an annually futile ballclub that played on plastic grass that camouflaged baseballs on a television screen because they were too cheap to upgrade their astroturf. They couldn't draw more than 15,000 people a game back then, at least until Whitey Ball showed up.

As a Reds fan and understanding the history of this game, I don't give an inch to St. Louis just because they have been more successful at adapting to the modern era of the game. Our history is every bit as signifigant.

The Cardinals were drawing great before divisional play and have won more than the Reds, it's not an inferiority complex to note the truth, by the time the Big Red Machine got their name the Cards had been to 12 WS compared to the Reds 4 times. Each time the Reds got a new GM (from 1934-1978) he was an ex Cardinal employee. They're a storied franchise, even with the hated Tony LaRussa.

fearofpopvol1
09-19-2010, 01:37 AM
What a classless clown LaRue is. I liked him when he was a Red, too.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 01:49 AM
The Cardinals were drawing great before divisional play and have won more than the Reds, it's not an inferiority complex to note the truth, by the time the Big Red Machine got their name the Cards had been to 12 WS compared to the Reds 4 times. Each time the Reds got a new GM (from 1934-1978) he was an ex Cardinal employee. They're a storied franchise, even with the hated Tony LaRussa.

I'm not a provincialist, but I just can't bring myself to to be humbled by the success of the St. Louis franchise in lieu of what the Cincinnati Reds brand means, not only its' importance as a flagship team but as an action point in American History as the first professional franchise. On top of that, the very greatest Cardinal team (The Gas House Gang) ranks signifigantly behind the Big Red Machine in the annals of the greatest teams ever assembled. The argument between the 76 Reds and the '27 Yankees has outlasted all arguments for another contender. No Cardinal team could ever compete with the talent on either of those ballclubs, and that is signifigant to the mean identity of our beloved Reds. I am tired of relinquishing bits of our history every single year that we struggle, and I am so proud of guys like Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips and Scott Rolen who are playing with a passion for the honor to play for this storied franchise. Because, that is simply what it is. An honor to be a Cincinnati Red.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 01:58 AM
I'm not a provincialist, but I just can't bring myself to to be humbled by the success of the St. Louis franchise in lieu of what the Cincinnati Reds brand means, not only its' importance as a flagship team but as an action point in American History as the first professional franchise. On top of that, the very greatest Cardinal team (The Gas House Gang) ranks signifigantly behind the Big Red Machine in the annals of the greatest teams assembled. The argument between the 76 Reds and the '27 Yankees has outlasted all arguments for another contender. No Cardinal team could ever compete with the talent on either of those ballclubs, and that is signifigant to their identity. I thought the discussion centered around the franchises history, not one team or one stretch. If it does then both franchises find their birth in 1882 and the Cardinals can claim more success in winning titles.

They invented the farm system, the Reds brought lights to the game. Both franchises have moments that resonate through the games history, but lets not poo poo the Cardinals history, it's not as shabby as you paint it.

Cedric
09-19-2010, 02:03 AM
I would retire also if I had 19 at bats in a season. Larue is just trying to set up some lawsuit or he's trying to act like he actually had a future.

He was a bad baseball player.. Had no business in the big leagues anyway.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 02:15 AM
I thought the discussion centered around the franchises history, not one team or one stretch. If it does then both franchises find their birth in 1882 and the Cardinals can claim more success in winning titles.

They invented the farm system, the Reds brought lights to the game. Both franchises have moments that resonate through the games history, but lets not poo poo the Cardinals history, it's not as shabby as you paint it.

I would never poo poo guys like Stan Musial, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson, Enos Slaughter, Dizzy Dean, Red Shoendinst, Whitey Herzog, Albert Pujols or Keith Hernandez. The Cardinals are a great franchise. But, Cincinnati is not in debt when you talk about Frank Robinson, Ernie Lombardi, Ed Roush, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Harry Wright, Eric Davis and Joey Votto.

To operate on the assumption that the Reds owe something to baseball is absurd. Baseball owes whatever appeal it has left to cities like Cincinnati and St. Louis, not as much as they would be led to believe by New York and Boston.

Wheelhouse
09-19-2010, 02:39 AM
That's fine. It was their rallying cry this year and they tanked, immediately after leaving town. I say let it be their rallying cry for the next 100 years if need be.

So long, Jason. You were part of The Lost Decade, you had a lousy attitude and you certainly won't be missed, not even a little bit. Don't let the door hit you in the butt, or head I suppose, on the way out.

Agreed. The Cardinals are EXACTLY what Phillips says they are. How can he with a straight face lay the blame for what happened on Cueto? The brawl was over, done, and Carpenter CLEARLY escalated it, and Larue ended up paying for what his teammate did in the ensuing chaos. If Larue has a beef, he should take it up with Carpenter. Cueto was pinned up against the net and reacted for self-preservation. Not to mention the fact that that COMPLETE idiot Molina's macho streak brought it to blows. Bye, Jason. That Cardinals locker room must be a negative cesspool by this point.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 10:34 AM
I would never poo poo guys like Stan Musial, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson, Enos Slaughter, Dizzy Dean, Red Shoendinst, Whitey Herzog, Albert Pujols or Keith Hernandez. The Cardinals are a great franchise. But, Cincinnati is not in debt when you talk about Frank Robinson, Ernie Lombardi, Ed Roush, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Harry Wright, Eric Davis and Joey Votto.

To operate on the assumption that the Reds owe something to baseball is absurd. Baseball owes whatever appeal it has left to cities like Cincinnati and St. Louis, not as much as they would be led to believe by New York and Boston.
I'm not operating under that assumption, and I have no idea where you get that idea, I'm disputing the fact that you said the Cardinals need to do damage control to bring back the franchise in the eyes of baseball fans.

That's what the Reds are doing right now, recovering with lots of damage control brought on from 2 decades of mediocre play, stupid owners and bad decisions.

There is no denying that.

BTW FWIW Harry Wrights name in the game starts in Cincinnati, but blossomed in the Boston area, and that's a big part of his legacy.

MWM
09-19-2010, 10:40 AM
I lked Jason Larue. I thought he played hard, was a decent player, and was underappreciated in Cincinnati. So long, Jason. You will be missed by some of us. Enjoy the rest of your life. You don't deserve some of the garbage being said about you here, but I've come to expect it from the Cincy fanbase as long as your'e not Pete Rose.

TheNext44
09-19-2010, 10:58 AM
First, this "leave on my own terms" is kinda silly. If LaRue retired after this season without getting hurt, no one would even notice. Heck, I thought he actually had retired until I saw him play against the Reds.

Second, concussions are a mysterious injury that we still don't know much about, and are hard to accurately diagnose. Many lawyers use to their advantage in lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that LaRue is using this to set up a lawsuit against Cueto. This retiring early because of the injury BS could be used to ask for lost future wages. And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was La Russa's idea, considering he is a lawyer himself.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 11:05 AM
Alan Schwartz has been doing a LOT of writing about concussions at the NYT.

This article is great.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/sports/baseball/22catchers.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&ref=alan_schwarz&adxnnlx=1284908600-yjHL5tvuYLz6rJpdrClK4A



Catchers earned high praise if, after being knocked unconscious, they insisted on completing the game. A typical 1883 account described the mask of George Myers of the Port Hurons in Michigan being ripped off his face by a foul ball. He gamely borrowed a replacement, only to be clobbered on the next pitch by another “terrible blow” that “threatened to disable him,” The Cleveland Herald reported.

TheNext44
09-19-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm not operating under that assumption, and I have no idea where you get that idea, I'm disputing the fact that you said the Cardinals need to do damage control to bring back the franchise in the eyes of baseball fans.

That's what the Reds are doing right now, recovering with lots of damage control brought on from 2 decades of mediocre play, stupid owners and bad decisions.

There is no denying that.

BTW FWIW Harry Wrights name in the game starts in Cincinnati, but blossomed in the Boston area, and that's a big part of his legacy.

I think the Cards have lost the respect that they once had in the eyes of baseball fans throughout the country. The Cards for decades were the most loved team by fans where there were no big league teams. They and their fans were considered the gentlemen of the sport, incapsulating the common sense, fair minded Midwestern attitude.

This lastest La Russa squad has done a lot of damage to that reputation. The Cards are looked at more as elitists these days than as common Midwest folks. They act as if they deserve special treatment.

I definitely think that the Cards need to get rid of La Russa if they are start to regain that respect from the average fan that they had for decades earlier.

Phhhl
09-19-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm not operating under that assumption, and I have no idea where you get that idea, I'm disputing the fact that you said the Cardinals need to do damage control to bring back the franchise in the eyes of baseball fans.

That's what the Reds are doing right now, recovering with lots of damage control brought on from 2 decades of mediocre play, stupid owners and bad decisions.

There is no denying that.

BTW FWIW Harry Wrights name in the game starts in Cincinnati, but blossomed in the Boston area, and that's a big part of his legacy.

Maybe I am just reading too much birdsonthebat.org. But, I do think they have done some public relations damage to their brand this year with all the whining. I know it has nothing to do with their successes on the field or their history, so to steer the conversation there may have been off course. But, this Larue thing does nothing but perpetuate the perception that the Cardinals are kind of a hot mess right now. People aside from the casual fan are starting to notice, and I have even seen Cardinal fans admit that there may have been a germ of truth in the stupid comments Brandon Phillips made about them back in August. I find it enjoyable in a sordid, tabloid reading sense. Sue me.

westofyou
09-19-2010, 11:14 AM
Maybe I am just reading too much birdsonthebat.org. But, I do think they have done some public relations damage to their brand this year with all the whining. I know it has nothing to do with their successes on the field or their history, so to steer the conversation there may have been off course. But, this Larue thing does nothing but perpetuate the perception that the Cardinals are kind of a hot mess right now. People aside from the casual fan are starting to notice, and I have even seen Cardinal fans admit that their may have been a germ of truth in the stupid comments Brandon Phillips made about them back in August. I find it enjoyable in a sordid, tabloid reading sense.

The shine is off the penny, and when I was in the Bay Area I saw it go off the A's too.

LaRussa is not a graceful loser, when his teams start to unravel his hold does too, that makes him ugly and unappealing, a monster who grimaces, whines and stomps his foot.

It's not pretty, it's not admirable, and currently it's belly grabbing funny.

kaldaniels
09-19-2010, 11:19 AM
I just wonder how much more whining etc. the players on the field see that we never know about.

lollipopcurve
09-19-2010, 12:14 PM
What goes up must come down.

With a roster weighed down by a few giant contracts and an unspectacular farm system, the Cards may end up in a decline that lasts a while. Just depends on how well the big 4 can continue to perform like All Stars.

reds44
09-19-2010, 12:19 PM
I feel sorry for LaRue.


















That was a lie, no I don't.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2010, 12:26 PM
I liked Jason LaRue when he played for the Reds. He was a solid catcher and a bit underrated I thought. With that said, I lost some respect for him in his final season as a Red as he seemed to pout over losing his starting role. As someone else previously mentioned, I remember him shunning his teammates after he hit a walk-off HR. While I hate to see him hurt, he's not innocent in this. He came on the field and went after Cueto. When you have a mob of guys piling on you, you have to do something to defend yourself and that's what Cueto did. It will be really sad if LaRue and the Cardinals try to blame Cueto for LaRue's retirement. As the article stated, LaRue has around 20 concussions in his career. Is Cueto responsible for those too?

Joseph
09-19-2010, 12:35 PM
As some of you know he was my wifes favorite Reds player when he was here. He converted her, in part, to becoming a Reds fan so for that I'll always be happy he was a Red.

I think the Cueto angle is being blown out of proportion. LaRue was ready to go and he's upset that Cueto 'robbed' him of a last at bat or two, can't really blame him to some extent but in a few years all will be forgotten and LaRue will be in fantasy camp or spring training like many long time Reds and all will be forgotten.

jojo
09-19-2010, 12:51 PM
Cueto kicked LaRue several times in the head with spiked shoes. It's fortunate that all that happened to LaRue was that he was severely concussed. There just isn't any positive way to spin this for Reds fans. We should let this one just go away as quickly as possible.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2010, 12:54 PM
It's also fortunate that Cueto didn't suffer an injury from the mob of guys piling on him. He could have easily suffered an arm or back injury and missed the rest of the season. If LaRue wants to be angry at someone it needs to be Chris Carpenter who escalated the whole melee.

jojo
09-19-2010, 12:57 PM
It's also fortunate that Cueto didn't suffer an injury from the mob of guys piling on him. He could have easily suffered an arm or back injury and missed the rest of the season. If LaRue wants to be angry at someone it needs to be Chris Carpenter who escalated the whole melee.

Spikes to heads are a no winner for the Reds. If the shoes fit, the kicker must quit.

TheNext44
09-19-2010, 01:27 PM
Cueto kicked LaRue several times in the head with spiked shoes. It's fortunate that all that happened to LaRue was that he was severely concussed. There just isn't any positive way to spin this for Reds fans. We should let this one just go away as quickly as possible.

We would like to, but LaRue won't let us or the national media do such a thing.

It is completely classless for LaRue to be going out of his way to blame Cueto for "ending his career," regardless of the merit of that claim. There is no reason for him to say it other than a desperate attempt to get attention or smear Cueto.

Ron Madden
09-19-2010, 01:41 PM
I lked Jason Larue. I thought he played hard, was a decent player, and was underappreciated in Cincinnati. So long, Jason. You will be missed by some of us. Enjoy the rest of your life. You don't deserve some of the garbage being said about you here, but I've come to expect it from the Cincy fanbase as long as your'e not Pete Rose.

I agree.

edabbs44
09-19-2010, 01:46 PM
We would like to, but LaRue won't let us or the national media do such a thing.

It is completely classless for LaRue to be going out of his way to blame Cueto for "ending his career," regardless of the merit of that claim. There is no reason for him to say it other than a desperate attempt to get attention or smear Cueto.

Is he really doing that though? That's not how I read it.

edabbs44
09-19-2010, 01:49 PM
It's also fortunate that Cueto didn't suffer an injury from the mob of guys piling on him. He could have easily suffered an arm or back injury and missed the rest of the season. If LaRue wants to be angry at someone it needs to be Chris Carpenter who escalated the whole melee.

Or Phillips for being a bonehead.

But this isn't really necessary...it's over. Lots of people were involved in some wrongness on some level, including Cueto. We need to just let the fight go. The LaRue story is new, the whole "who caused what" discussion is old.

TheNext44
09-19-2010, 01:54 PM
Is he really doing that though? That's not how I read it.

I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.


"I was going to retire on my own terms," LaRue says. "It's unfortunate that the blow that decided it came from someone kicking me in the head with spikes. I wouldn't say I would change things if you could rewrite history. They say things happen for certain reasons. In this case, I couldn't tell you why. Does it suck that my career is over because Johnny Cueto started kicking me in the head? Yes, it sucks.

Razor Shines
09-19-2010, 01:57 PM
Is he really doing that though? That's not how I read it.

I agree. I don't think he said anything in the article that was too harsh. He stated that what happened is the reason that he is retiring now instead of maybe at the end of the year or next year.

Somebody said something about not feeling sorry for him. Who's asking you to feel sorry for him? I don't feel sorry for him either. He said "baseball has been good to me, I never have to work again." Clearly he's not asking you to feel sorry for him.

EDIT: I guess I should say that I don't think that it was too classless for LaRue to state what happened as the reason he is retiring now, instead of at the end of the year or next year.

edabbs44
09-19-2010, 01:57 PM
I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

Hmmm...maybe I should read the entire article again before posting.

Carry on. :)

The rest of the article was pretty benign and made a lot of sense to me. But that quote was somewhat unnecessary. He was probably done anyway.

And as a sidebar...maybe he should have thought about closing up shop at around 5 concussions, definitely at 10 and w/o a doubt at 15.

jojo
09-19-2010, 02:16 PM
There is no reason for him to say it other than a desperate attempt to get attention or smear Cueto.

Surely there are other very reasonable reasons. For instance, maybe it's because the final concussion didn't come from a foul ball or a collision at the plate but rather from someone kicking him in the head with spikes? Would he be classless if it had been Zambrano that had caused the concussion? I bet the classless factor would shrink on redzone by about 100-fold in that hypothetical...

WMR
09-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Enter a brawl and you may very well get kicked in the head. Newsflash. (Not to mention the karma factor behind going after someone half your size.)

I liked LaRue when he was in Cincy, but the Cardinal Turdishness definitely infected him once he joined StL.

TheNext44
09-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Surely there are other very reasonable reasons. For instance, maybe it's because the final concussion didn't come from a foul ball or a collision at the plate but rather from someone kicking him in the head with spikes? Would he be classless if it had been Zambrano that had caused the concussion? I bet the classless factor would shrink on redzone by about 100-fold in that hypothetical...

If the roles were reversed, and Larue had kicked Cueto, and Cueto made that statement that LaRue made, I would call it classless too, because it is classless, no matter who says it. What Cueto did was classless as well, but that doesn't make what LaRue said any classier.

I don't know how anyone could read that quote and think that it wasn't a cheap shot aimed at Cueto.

"I was going to retire on my own terms," LaRue says. "It's unfortunate that the blow that decided it came from someone kicking me in the head with spikes... Does it suck that my career is over because Johnny Cueto started kicking me in the head? Yes, it sucks."

I really liked LaRue, and am sad that he has been La Russasized.

And talking about not being able to let it go, La Russa today commited again on it and how it is stll affecting Carpenter.

The Cardinals used to have the reputation, well earned, of being the classiest team in the majors. It's a shame that is being destroyed.

pedro
09-19-2010, 04:07 PM
I lked Jason Larue. I thought he played hard, was a decent player, and was underappreciated in Cincinnati. So long, Jason. You will be missed by some of us. Enjoy the rest of your life. You don't deserve some of the garbage being said about you here, but I've come to expect it from the Cincy fanbase as long as your'e not Pete Rose.

I agree whole heartedly. Larue was a hard nosed guy who was never afraid to play hurt. I wish him well in his future endeavors.

MWM
09-19-2010, 05:14 PM
People forget sometimes that these guys are human beings. I don't think any of us can comprehend what it's like for one of these ballplayers to have to make the decision to retire. Their entire life has been about the game of baseball. They're one of the lucky few who were able to actually live the dream so many players have from childhood. They also know their time in the game is short and once it's over, that's it. And they know nothing else.

I imagine the decision to walk away from baseball was excrutiatingly difficult for a guy like Larue. So I don't see how anyone could be criticial of the fact that he's not happy that it came to pass sooner than he wanted at the hands of another player. Let me get this straight, he takes several kicks to the head with metal spikes by Cueto that causes him concussion. This is the driving factor behind his timing for retirement. He states that he's not happy that this is how his career is coming to an end. And this is classless? I guess I'm just too dumb to get how that makes any sense.

It's likely that none of the people on this forum will ever be as good at ANYTHING as Jason Larue was at baseball. So to hear some of the vitriole being lobbed in his direction from faceless people sitting at a keyboard thinking they know what he should or shouldn't think is laughable.

kaldaniels
09-19-2010, 05:25 PM
I may be a horrible person but I question the assertion that Cueto's kicks left Jason unable to cook for himself...could it be true...sure...but I don't know about that one.

SirFelixCat
09-19-2010, 06:04 PM
I really liked Larue and thought he did give his all when he was a Red. It's a shame his career ended this way. And I don't condone what Cueto did, but the fact is Laure has sustained 20 concussions. This was inevitable, but still not the ideal way for him to end his career.

I hope he recovers and has a long and enjoyable retirement! :thumbup:

Brutus
09-19-2010, 06:19 PM
People forget sometimes that these guys are human beings. I don't think any of us can comprehend what it's like for one of these ballplayers to have to make the decision to retire. Their entire life has been about the game of baseball. They're one of the lucky few who were able to actually live the dream so many players have from childhood. They also know their time in the game is short and once it's over, that's it. And they know nothing else.

I imagine the decision to walk away from baseball was excrutiatingly difficult for a guy like Larue. So I don't see how anyone could be criticial of the fact that he's not happy that it came to pass sooner than he wanted at the hands of another player. Let me get this straight, he takes several kicks to the head with metal spikes by Cueto that causes him concussion. This is the driving factor behind his timing for retirement. He states that he's not happy that this is how his career is coming to an end. And this is classless? I guess I'm just too dumb to get how that makes any sense.

It's likely that none of the people on this forum will ever be as good at ANYTHING as Jason Larue was at baseball. So to hear some of the vitriole being lobbed in his direction from faceless people sitting at a keyboard thinking they know what he should or shouldn't think is laughable.

Being good at baseball has nothing to do with it. I think that's just a way to criticize people who don't like the way LaRue is going about this. Who cares if he's good at his profession? That isn't relevant to the issue.

By the way, I don't have a problem with LaRue being upset. I can understand it. I can't say any of us wouldn't be just as frustrated if our careers were ended in that capacity.

However, LaRue is being a bonehead about this. He entered into a physical altercation, and stuff happens when you put yourself in that position. All players put themselves at risk when something gets physical. For LaRue to openly blame another player for ending his career when he was equally involved in the altercation is a stretch at best.

I won't call LaRue whiny like most of his teammates are. And I won't call this classless because I can understand his position. But regardless of how good he is at his profession, he's being a bit of a bonehead. I feel for him. I do. But the "I'm a victim" stuff is a little unnecessary as is the attacking people for disliking it.

marcshoe
09-19-2010, 06:46 PM
I mentioned earlier that Larue's minor league turnaround in Charleston made me a fan. Check out how impressive this was here. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=larue-001mic) look at the '96 and '97 numbers. I was working a short difference from Watt Powell park then and attended more games than during any other season. Larue went from looking like a scrub to a doubles machine, hitting fifty while raising his obp ninety points from one year to the next.

My main point was that sports need to grow up. The idea of millionaires brawling and putting their livelyhood and their health in danger is absurd. Think about the danger Cueto, one of the best young pitchers around, put himself in. And with all we know about concussions, someone like Larue who had suffered around 20 should likely have not been playing, much less putting himself in the middle of a fight. ;course the very reason I like Larue was what put him out there, protecting his pitchers.

The umps usually do a good job in this situation, so let the best train the others, if this isn't happening already. Impose severe penalties and mandatory ten-game suspensions for the third man in and mandatory suspensions for anyone leaving the dugout. Make it clear that fighting will hurt your pocketbook and your team.

It's time something was done. The world has changed; baseball has changed.

MWM
09-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Being great at baseball has everything to do with it. The point it, none of us has a point of reference with which to judge the guy or which to say what he "should" say.

RFS62
09-19-2010, 06:54 PM
If I had 19 concussions over the years, and I left the bench to participate in a brawl, I doubt that I'd be very surprised to receive number 20. Would he be happier if Cueto had punched him in the head with his fist?

And what if Cueto had done that, and broken his pitching hand?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Don't leave the bench and charge a guy smaller than you are expecting Marquess of Queensberry rules.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2010, 06:57 PM
If I had 19 concussions over the years, and I left the bench to participate in a brawl, I doubt that I'd be very surprised to receive number 20. Would he be happier if Cueto had punched him in the head with his fist?

And what if Cueto had done that, and broken his pitching hand?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Don't leave the bench and charge a guy smaller than you are expecting Marquess of Queensberry rules.

Excellent post!

kaldaniels
09-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Being great at baseball has everything to do with it. The point it, none of us has a point of reference with which to judge the guy or which to say what he "should" say.

No one here has sat on their pedestal and judged him...we are just throwing out opinions, which is what we are entitled to do on here.

Brutus
09-19-2010, 08:03 PM
Being great at baseball has everything to do with it. The point it, none of us has a point of reference with which to judge the guy or which to say what he "should" say.

Being good at something absolutely has nothing to do with how you're expected to behave. That's silly.

I'll cut the guy some slack, as I said earlier, because I'm sure he's frustrated and I can imagine why. But he's still acting like a bonehead and I don't need to be a baseball player to hold that opinion, nor does anyone here.

Ability doesn't justify saying or doing anything you please. I don't know where you get the idea that because he's relatively good at his profession (which is actually debatable), thereby he has the right to speak out of turn.

sivman17
09-19-2010, 08:42 PM
If it's true that LaRue had 20 concussions, then there's no way he should have been playing any more. Either he is drastically exaggerating or he made a terrible decision to continue playing after his 6th or 7th one.

He will have serious brain damage down the road.

camisadelgolf
09-19-2010, 08:46 PM
YouTube - La Roux - Bulletproof (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsbpmQ9-mc)

redsmetz
09-19-2010, 09:15 PM
Even though I've seen this thread multiple times, every time I come in to the ORG, I think it says "LaRussa Retires". Dang.

Hoosier Red
09-19-2010, 09:53 PM
Fiddlesticks, I had a great long post about this, but the internet cut out. Let's see if I can recreate the genius.

ah yes, Essentially I think the injury while unfortunate is not something that can easily be blamed on one or the other. Cueto and Larue's actions were both fairly reasonable reactions given the information they had available at that time.

Cueto is a little man, and was backed up against a wall, and had between 50 and 70 grown men pressing up against him. The reasonable thing to do is to put the legs up,and try to create as much leverage and room around him as possible. Wouldn't you? He was not kicking anyone, but had his legs up on Carp's back(probably not comfortable but certainly not malicious to an uninterested party.)

But Larue wasn't an uninterested party. Carpenter was HIS TEAMMATE, HIS PITCHER. Given the circumstances, it's hard to ask him to give Cueto the benefit of the doubt. So he sees Cueto "kicking" his teammate and charges at Cueto. Again I'd love to have that guy on my team. I want the catcher to take his pitcher's safety personally.

So Larue charges at Cueto, whom he outweighs by about 1 bill. So Cueto, already in a compromised position, has his flight or fight reaction, and starts kicking everything in his path. I don't have a son, but if I did, I'd like to think I'd teach him that if surrounded by 50 people and someone starts charging at you, do whatever you can to keep him away.

And Larue, already with enough adrenaline to make a second Point Break movie coursing through his veins, keeps charging, and he gets kicked.

I think essentially when it comes down to it, put 50 hypercompetitive, angry men in a scrum, have too few people trying to be peacemakers and too many to be instigators on both sides, and it's really fortunate that one concussion to a backup catcher is the worst injury to come out of it.

37red
09-19-2010, 10:08 PM
I have seizures caused by concusions, have had for years just like he has. I played sports hard and took it to my limits. Mine go back 25 years. The descriptions of what he's experiencing are a window to having had or going to have. Each one weakens the insulation on your neurons. I have many symptoms he's experienceing. They cripple your life, especially an active one like his. and mine have. It finally comes down to will the next one become a stroke, or cause a very serious accident............, I had a serius accident one and will never look the same or be able to safely throw a baseball with my children or grand children. Concusions are a bad thing and he's doing the right thing. Being with your family is much more important than playing baseball.

Spitball
09-19-2010, 10:24 PM
I have seizures caused by concusions, have had for years just like he has. I played sports hard and took it to my limits. Mine go back 25 years. The descriptions of what he's experiencing are a window to having had or going to have. Each one weakens the insulation on your neurons. I have many symptoms he's experienceing. They cripple your life, especially an active one like his. and mine have. It finally comes down to will the next one become a stroke, or cause a very serious accident............, I had a serius accident one and will never look the same or be able to safely throw a baseball with my children or grand children. Concusions are a bad thing and he's doing the right thing. Being with your family is much more important than playing baseball.

Very informational, 37. Btw, it is really good to see you, old pal. :beerme:

kaldaniels
09-19-2010, 11:33 PM
As an aside...I think some terrible things are going to happen to players in the NFL now...this leading with the helmet junk is seriously messing people up. I don't know what the right answer is, but unfortunately, the players have taken the armor that they are given, and are using it as a weapon on hits. Horrible consequences are coming.

KronoRed
09-20-2010, 02:58 AM
I know this is completely unrelated, but I wonder if any of the Cards will give the Reds credit for being the better team and coming out on top in the central this year?

Would the Reds players if the situation were reversed? I doubt it.

KronoRed
09-20-2010, 03:08 AM
I think the Cards have lost the respect that they once had in the eyes of baseball fans throughout the country.

I don't, most of the baseball fans, that aren't Reds fans, I know haven't even thought about the Reds or Cards since the brawl except to mention the Reds as being in 1st.

The Cardinals are not a johnny come lately team that people will suddenly ditch like a Rays, they have a long and storied history, while it may pain us Reds fans to hear, they have a lot more banners hanging from the wall then we do.

But I guess we do have our *nudgenudgewinkwink* founded in 1869

reds44
09-20-2010, 03:14 AM
First of all, people need to stop treating Cueto like he's the 13 year old from Rookie of the Year. He's 24 year old grown man who gets paid a lot of money to play baseball against other grown men.

This goes for all parties involved in the brawl. I don't feel bad for Cueto being pinned up against the backstop, nor do I feel bad for LaRue getting dome rocked by Cueto's spikes. It was a brawl. If you don't want to be part of the brawl, stay in the dugout. It's not like Cueto randomly went up to LaRue one day and kicked him in the head. Get a bunch of grown men pushing and shoving and yelling at each other and there's a chance somebody get hurts.

It's what happens. Cueto got pinned up against the back stop and he wanted to get out, so he started kicking. His plan worked like a charm and he got out without getting hurt. He got suspended, he surved his suspension, end of discussion.

Don't get involved in a fight if you don't want to get hurt.

It's unfortunate he got a concussion because concussion's are bad news, but it's nothing he shouldn't have known had the potential of happening when you enter a brawl.

I have a feeling this was going to be LaRue's last year by choice or not, so I'm not going to shed any tears that he didn't get to go out on his own terms.

Something is going to happen to Cueto the next time he pitches against the Cardinals though, you can be sure of that, especially of TLR is still the manager.

EDIT: and there's no chance that number of concussion's LaRue had is factual.

edabbs44
09-20-2010, 07:02 AM
Playing devil's advocate, how would you feel if the situation was reversed and Brendan Ryan was pushed up against the fence, had a bat in his hands because he was up that inning and clocked Votto in the head because he was pinned?

Be honest.

jojo
09-20-2010, 07:36 AM
If one can kick forcefully by voluntarily extending one's leg through its full range of motion, is it accurate to describe that player's situation as being "pinned"?

edabbs44
09-20-2010, 07:38 AM
If one can kick forcefully by voluntarily extending one's leg through its full range of motion, is it accurate to describe that player's situation as being "pinned"?

Against a net.

RANDY IN INDY
09-20-2010, 08:51 AM
If I had 19 concussions over the years, and I left the bench to participate in a brawl, I doubt that I'd be very surprised to receive number 20. Would he be happier if Cueto had punched him in the head with his fist?

And what if Cueto had done that, and broken his pitching hand?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Don't leave the bench and charge a guy smaller than you are expecting Marquess of Queensberry rules.

On the money, RFS62 Leave the bench, get involved, and you get what you get. He was going after Cueto to inflict a little pain. He ran into a scared Dominican who was pinned against the backstop with his feet his only defense. May not have been right but rarely do brawls have rules.

I was involved in a bench clearing brawl in a high school basketball game in Russell, Kentucky. Benches and stands emptied, and one of their players was running at me with his fist up and back. My decision was, hit him or be hit, so I did the former. Sometimes you don't have time to think clearly when you are being physically threatened. Survival instinct usually kicks in. I think that's what happened with Cueto.

With all that said, I don't have a lot of sympathy for Jason Larue, who was clearly coming after Johnny Cueto.

bucksfan2
09-20-2010, 09:11 AM
"I was going to retire on my own terms," LaRue says. "It's unfortunate that the blow that decided it came from someone kicking me in the head with spikes. I wouldn't say I would change things if you could rewrite history. They say things happen for certain reasons. In this case, I couldn't tell you why. Does it suck that my career is over because Johnny Cueto started kicking me in the head? Yes, it sucks.

Occasionally I will wrestle with my dog. Nothing harmful more playful than anything else. He will get down and growl and will keep coming at me in a playful way. There is nothing harmful that is done and the only thing that results is I may get a scratch on my arm from one of his nails. But if he gets backed into a corner or up against a couch with no way out all bets are off. He will try even hard to get out and it quits becoming fun.

I am not saying Cueto is a dog, but you back a man into a wall and all bets are off. You go into self preserving mode. Anyone who has been in a scrum knows that when you get in a certain situation you will lash out in any manner until you feel comfortable. I don't blame Johnny for acting the way he did (I do blame him for being dumb enough to get himself in the situation he was in). If you leave the dugout and enter into a "brawl" you take whatever you get.

FWIW if LaRue has 20+ concussions in his life he should have retired a long time ago. There is a macho attitude amongst athletes but when you have made as much money as LaRue did during his career, hanging in there for another couple of years while putting your head in jeopardy is senseless to me.

Sea Ray
09-20-2010, 09:31 AM
As an aside...I think some terrible things are going to happen to players in the NFL now...this leading with the helmet junk is seriously messing people up. I don't know what the right answer is, but unfortunately, the players have taken the armor that they are given, and are using it as a weapon on hits. Horrible consequences are coming.

Most NFL concussions come from a players head hitting the ground after a tackle

Hollcat
09-20-2010, 09:43 AM
Sounds like someone is setting up up for a lawsuit of some kind.

How much is he going to sue for, his potential future earnings? I think Phillips could probably cover that for Cueto.

Larue's made over $19,000,000 over the past eleven years. I think he will be able to squeak by some how. If not it's his own fault.

The Operator
09-20-2010, 09:58 AM
"Your Honor, I chose to enter the field during the melee. Regardless of the fact that I'd already suffered 19 concussions, I chose to advance on The Defendant, Mr. Cueto, in an aggressive manner. He then chose to kick me in the face, levying me with my 20th concussion. I would like to pursue all damages to the fullest extent of the law, please."

http://redbirdmedia.mlblogs.com/larue.jpg

jojo
09-20-2010, 10:26 AM
"Your Honor, I chose to enter the field during the melee. Regardless of the fact that I'd already suffered 19 concussions, I chose to advance on The Defendant, Mr. Cueto, in an aggressive manner. He then chose to kick me in the face, levying me with my 20th concussion. I would like to pursue all damages to the fullest extent of the law, please."

http://redbirdmedia.mlblogs.com/larue.jpg

Lets ignore colors of unis...

Player A is near player B, the franchise pitcher. Player C is using spikes as a weapon directed toward player B.

Which is the appropriate thing to do for player A:
1) nothing
2) prevent player C from hitting player B

If player A was Hanigan, player B was Cueto and player C was Carpenter, how would the perception change?

If the answer changes depending upon which color uni is on player C, then I'd suggest bias is coloring the argument.

IMHO the bottom line is that intentionally directing spikes to a head should NEVER happen on a baseball field. When talking about class and fault, the discussion needs to begin there. Frankly, it's not a winnable situation for the Reds.

Is it unfortunate that any player's career ends prematurely by being kicked in the head during stuff that happened outside the lines (even if it shortens a career by only by a spring training or a few at bats)? Of course it is...

lollipopcurve
09-20-2010, 10:34 AM
Lets ignore colors of unis...

Player A is near player B, the franchise pitcher. Player C is using spikes as a weapon directed toward player B.

Which is the appropriate thing to do for player A:
1) nothing
2) prevent player C from hitting player B

If player A was Hanigan, player B was Cueto and player C was Carpenter, how would the perception change?

If the answer changes depending upon which color uni is on player C, then I'd suggest bias is coloring the argument.

IMHO the bottom line is that intentionally directing spikes to a head should NEVER happen on a baseball field. When talking about class and fault, the discussion needs to begin there. Frankly, it's not a winnable situation for the Reds.

Is it unfortunate that any player's career ends prematurely by being kicked in the head during stuff that happened outside the lines (even if it shortens a career by only by a spring training or a few at bats)? Of course it is...

My perception is that Larue and the Cards have used the incident to a) gain a roster spot and b) shift nearly 100% of the blame for Larue's health problems onto Cueto. Was Cueto at fault? Yes. Can one distinguish degrees of fault/blame in this situation? Yes.

Roy Tucker
09-20-2010, 10:40 AM
I agree whole heartedly. Larue was a hard nosed guy who was never afraid to play hurt. I wish him well in his future endeavors.

Me too.

When he was with the Reds, he lived a couple streets over from us. His back yard backed up to a park that we walked and I'd see him on his patio every so often grilling burgers and dogs and knocking down some beers. My wife knew his wife through the elementary school so we'd stop and talk to her every so often. Rarely about baseball and mostly more about everyday life and kids. Nice lady who had her hands full with 3 very rowdy boys.

I wish him well.

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 10:50 AM
Lets ignore colors of unis...

Player A is near player B, the franchise pitcher. Player C is using spikes as a weapon directed toward player B.

Which is the appropriate thing to do for player A:
1) nothing
2) prevent player C from hitting player B

If player A was Hanigan, player B was Cueto and player C was Carpenter, how would the perception change?

If the answer changes depending upon which color uni is on player C, then I'd suggest bias is coloring the argument.

IMHO the bottom line is that intentionally directing spikes to a head should NEVER happen on a baseball field. When talking about class and fault, the discussion needs to begin there. Frankly, it's not a winnable situation for the Reds.

Is it unfortunate that any player's career ends prematurely by being kicked in the head during stuff that happened outside the lines (even if it shortens a career by only by a spring training or a few at bats)? Of course it is...

It is possible to condemn Cueto for his actions and still question the integrity of LaRue's statements. There really is no connection between the two.

And considering that LaRue was a well liked and respected Red for years, I think this notion that members of the board's opinions are biased due to uniform color misses the mark.

Larkin Fan
09-20-2010, 11:01 AM
EDIT: and there's no chance that number of concussion's LaRue had is factual.

Why exactly? Once one suffers a concussion, subsequent concussions are pretty easy to come by.

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 11:16 AM
Why exactly? Once one suffers a concussion, subsequent concussions are pretty easy to come by.

Actually, I think this is the main problem with his story. If he really had 20 concussions, which he might have had, it is highly unlkely that he would have gotten clearance to catch professionally. Furthermore, if that is true, then it really is disingenuous to claim that the last concussion is the reason why you are retiring.

If this was LaRue's first concussion, then it is almost impossible for it to be enough to end he career. However, if it just was the last in a series of concussions, then you really can't say that Cueto's actions were the cause of his retirement, or blame Cueto for LaRue's retirement.

That is the problem that I have with LaRue's statement.

jojo
09-20-2010, 11:34 AM
It is possible to condemn Cueto for his actions and still question the integrity of LaRue's statements.

He was kicked in the head and has had serious problems since. Given his age and past history of head trauma, he's been advised to quit. Those facts are largely collaborated.

So concerning morality, it would seem his comments were pretty close to a necessary threshold....

jojo
09-20-2010, 11:35 AM
Actually, I think this is the main problem with his story. If he really had 20 concussions, which he might have had, it is highly unlkely that he would have gotten clearance to catch professionally. Furthermore, if that is true, then it really is disingenuous to claim that the last concussion is the reason why you are retiring.

If this was LaRue's first concussion, then it is almost impossible for it to be enough to end he career. However, if it just was the last in a series of concussions, then you really can't say that Cueto's actions were the cause of his retirement, or blame Cueto for LaRue's retirement.

That is the problem that I have with LaRue's statement.

As someone who also has had multiple concussions, I don't agree with your medical opinion.

37red
09-20-2010, 11:50 AM
I think if you've ever felt strongly and seriously about what you're doing, and are trying so hard to keep doing those things you always did, it's really really hard to admit to yourself, for uncontrollable circumstances, you can't. It throws you into a completely different gear so to say, a defeat. No body wants to be taken down and out, realize they just can't do it anymore, trust me.
For what ever qualities LaRue had on the field, he showed he is a competitor. He's got a lot more difficult game ahead of him than just baseball.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 11:53 AM
Why exactly? Once one suffers a concussion, subsequent concussions are pretty easy to come by.

Pat LaFontain agrees as does Eric Lindros

RedsManRick
09-20-2010, 11:56 AM
It was a brawl. Brawls suck for the people in them b/c there's a good chance you're goign to get hurt even if you're not doing anything "wrong". Cueto went in to self preservation mode. Let's say he doesn't kick, the mob presses him even tighter against the wall/netting and he gets seriously injured. What then?

Maybe you should be mad at your teammates who clearly picked and escalated the fight. But let's be realistic here. This wasn't a melee in the middle of the field where Cueto just started kicking people maliciously. Heck, the only reason he was even able to kick somebody in the head is because he was trapped against a netting leaning over a wall. He was in full defense mode protecting himself and you got in the way. It doesn't make it "right" per se', but trying to claim rules of engagement in that situation is silly.

It sucks that LaRue is going out this way. But if you've had 19 concussions, you're playing on borrowed time already. You should know how fragile you are and probably not wade deep into a 40 man scrum. If he had taken an elbow instead of a cleat, would that have been any better/worse?

RedsManRick
09-20-2010, 12:06 PM
As for his self-reported 19 concussions, I absolutely believe it. Historically, professional athletes have tons of incentives to keep concussions and concussion-like symptoms from medical staffs. Short of fear of permanent injury, and sometimes even in the face of that, athletes are encouraged to tough it out, play through the pain -- be a good teammate.

The guys who voluntarily announce injuries and sit out get labeled as wimps and cast out. This is particularly true for guys like LaRue who aren't exactly blowing scouts away. Take a back-up in his 30s and give him injury issues and you're looking at somebody who's playing with his kids in June, or who's playing Crash Davis.

37red
09-20-2010, 12:09 PM
As does 37red, and each time one accurs it becomes more dangerous to your neural pathways.

bucksfan2
09-20-2010, 12:23 PM
As for his self-reported 19 concussions, I absolutely believe it. Historically, professional athletes have tons of incentives to keep concussions and concussion-like symptoms from medical staffs. Short of fear of permanent injury, and sometimes even in the face of that, athletes are encouraged to tough it out, play through the pain -- be a good teammate.

The guys who voluntarily announce injuries and sit out get labeled as wimps and cast out. This is particularly true for guys like LaRue who aren't exactly blowing scouts away. Take a back-up in his 30s and give him injury issues and you're looking at somebody who's playing with his kids in June, or who's playing Crash Davis.

Does MLB have a concussion policy? I know the NFL has gotten pretty strict, and rightfully so, on concussions but I don't know if MLB does.

Something about this story sounds a little odd to me. You have already had 19 concussions and Johnny Cueto just so happens to give you your 20th in a brawl.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 12:25 PM
Does MLB have a concussion policy? I know the NFL has gotten pretty strict, and rightfully so, on concussions but I don't know if MLB does.

Something about this story sounds a little odd to me. You have already had 19 concussions and Johnny Cueto just so happens to give you your 20th in a brawl.

I doubt they do, the NHL just instituted one recently, you can bet the stigma of not being a contact sport will/would drag the feet of the decision makers.

traderumor
09-20-2010, 12:30 PM
Lets ignore colors of unis...

Player A is near player B, the franchise pitcher. Player C is using spikes as a weapon directed toward player B.

Which is the appropriate thing to do for player A:
1) nothing
2) prevent player C from hitting player B

If player A was Hanigan, player B was Cueto and player C was Carpenter, how would the perception change?

If the answer changes depending upon which color uni is on player C, then I'd suggest bias is coloring the argument.

IMHO the bottom line is that intentionally directing spikes to a head should NEVER happen on a baseball field. When talking about class and fault, the discussion needs to begin there. Frankly, it's not a winnable situation for the Reds.

Is it unfortunate that any player's career ends prematurely by being kicked in the head during stuff that happened outside the lines (even if it shortens a career by only by a spring training or a few at bats)? Of course it is...The no-spikes-up rule in a brawl. Who knew. What about knee to groin? Is that off-limits too, or does it depend on the color of uni?

37red
09-20-2010, 12:32 PM
My comment above was in agreement with Larkin and West of You, and my neurologist. Concussions are easier to have and more dangerous. I've had approximately 15, but sometimes that's hard to tell because I'm unconscious.
I can't stay in this thread any longer, it's becoming more and more baiting.

camisadelgolf
09-20-2010, 01:08 PM
Cueto-LaRue: Legal implications (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cueto-larue-legal-implications/)

The idea raises an interesting question: Can a baseball player sue for the torts he sustains in a baseball game?

fearofpopvol1
09-20-2010, 01:13 PM
I lked Jason Larue. I thought he played hard, was a decent player, and was underappreciated in Cincinnati. So long, Jason. You will be missed by some of us. Enjoy the rest of your life. You don't deserve some of the garbage being said about you here, but I've come to expect it from the Cincy fanbase as long as your'e not Pete Rose.

How dare we have an opinion over some of his controversial comments!!

westofyou
09-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Cueto-LaRue: Legal implications (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cueto-larue-legal-implications/)

On August 4, 1960, Billy Martin, then playing for the Reds, charged the mound in the second inning after receiving a brushback pitch from Chicago Cubs pitcher Jim Brewer. Martin threw his bat at Brewer, who picked up the bat and started to hand it to Martin as he approached. Martin punched Brewer in the right eye, breaking his cheekbone. Brewer was hospitalized for two months, and Martin served a five-day suspension. The Cubs sued Martin for $1 million for the loss of Brewer's services. While the Cubs dropped their case, Brewer pursued his, and in 1969, a judge ordered Martin to pay $10,000 in damages. When informed of the judgment by the press, he asked sarcastically, "How do they want it? Cash or check?"

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 01:35 PM
He was kicked in the head and has had serious problems since. Given his age and past history of head trauma, he's been advised to quit. Those facts are largely collaborated.

So concerning morality, it would seem his comments were pretty close to a necessary threshold....

All he need to say was that he was retiring because of the number of concussions that he received over his career. This last one, due to being kicked in the head by, was the last straw, however, he doesn't blame Cueto for his retirement, since it wasn't soley that kick which caused his retirement.

Or he could say..

Who knows if that kick to head caused my retirement, I'm not going to disrespect a fellow major league player who did something stupid in the middle of big brawl, by commenting on whose to blame for what.

Or something alone those lines. It was unneccessary and bush league for him to put all the blame on Cueto, even if it were true. That's not the classy way to deal with the situation.

Now, of cousre, if he he still thinking of pursuing a lawsut, he needs to say what he said. That is what I am most suspicious of... LaRue still conteplating suing Cueto. He may never do it, but he wants to keep that door open, so he has to say what he said.

I say this because I have many doctors in my family, (none Reds fans) who all told me that it is very common for lawyers to try to get doctors to diagnose a head injury as a concussion since that pays so well in court. In fact, while concussions are very real and very dangerous, they are nearly impossible to properly diagnose, since we know so little about them. Because of this vagueness, it is very easy to get a doctor to call any head injury a "concussion." Many people can have the symptoms of a concussion, without having one, and conversely, no symptoms at all, and have one. A massive hit to the head could cause no concussion while a time one could.


I'm not saying that LaRue is lying, in fact, I beleive him. I just don't trust his motives.

jojo
09-20-2010, 03:34 PM
The no-spikes-up rule in a brawl. Who knew. What about knee to groin? Is that off-limits too, or does it depend on the color of uni?

We're throwing around "brawl" like they were in a cage... Pushing, shoving, potty mouths, spikes to a head.... which one seems abnormal for a typical bench clearing in baseball?

Brutus
09-20-2010, 03:42 PM
We're throwing around "brawl" like they were in a cage... Pushing, shoving, potty mouths, spikes to a head.... which one seems abnormal for a typical bench clearing in baseball?

In a brawl, in the middle of 45 people surrounding you, I think it's very possible you're not thinking about spiking someone, but self-preservation.

traderumor
09-20-2010, 03:47 PM
We're throwing around "brawl" like they were in a cage... Pushing, shoving, potty mouths, spikes to a head.... which one seems abnormal for a typical bench clearing in baseball?Brawl, by definition, is anything goes. I am not saying that what Cueto did was ok, but I think folks have adequately hit on the "survival" instinct being in operation there. Get a guy cornered, or think he's cornered, and there are not too many rules of engagement. It isn't like people sit around and think through "If I'm ever in a brawl, I will never..." Honestly, it is ridiculous to even suggest for someone who knows anything about human nature.

RedsManRick
09-20-2010, 03:56 PM
We're throwing around "brawl" like they were in a cage... Pushing, shoving, potty mouths, spikes to a head.... which one seems abnormal for a typical bench clearing in baseball?

Nice framing of the facts there Jojo. It it's not like everybody was standing around jawing and shoving each other when Cueto comes flying out of nowhere with a karate kick the face. And, actually for Cueto, it was sort of like he was in a cage. He was trapped up against the wall/netting and trying to avoid getting trapped further.

He wasn't even the only one kicking, as this shows. Thatcertainly doesn't make Cueto "right", but it does show that he wasn't the only one trying to protect himself with his legs.

YouTube - Reds/Cardinals Brawl 8/10/10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5A_QI_s9Cs)

It's easy to look back on this as an outsider and say what a guy should or shouldn't have done. But when you're in the middle of it, you don't know what's going to happen. You're reacting and trying to protect yourself. What Johnny did may have been stupid. It may have been excessive. But it wasn't criminal.

I'm very sorry for LaRue. I always liked the guy. But you can't join a fight and then cry about it when a pre-existing injury is aggravated when you get hit by somebody trying to protect himself.

sivman17
09-20-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm not exactly buying the "Cueto ended LaRue's career." He was 36 and has been on a major decline the last 5 years. He's never been a good offensive player, but in the last 5 seasons, he's had a BA below .200 three times.

He's been a solid backup the past few years. But, if he's really had close to 20 concussions, he should have retired 5 years ago. I don't know what he was thinking these past few seasons.

camisadelgolf
09-20-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm not exactly buying the "Cueto ended LaRue's career." He was 36 and has been on a major decline the last 5 years. He's never been a good offensive player, but in the last 5 seasons, he's had a BA below .200 three times.

He's been a solid backup the past few years. But, if he's really had close to 20 concussions, he should have retired 5 years ago. I don't know what he was thinking these past few seasons.
He was probably thinking, "Someone's going to pay me a million dollars to play baseball." I'm not even sure I'd let fifty concussions stop me from doing that.

bucksfan2
09-20-2010, 04:35 PM
I'm very sorry for LaRue. I always liked the guy. But you can't join a fight and then cry about it when a pre-existing injury is aggravated when you get hit by somebody trying to protect himself.

I really don't feel sorry for LaRue at all. At some point your own personal well being has to come into play. If you have had 19 previous self diagnosed concussions you shouldn't be playing baseball at his age. Then compound that with getting right in the middle of a brawl. To me better judgment needed to be used. And to be honest St Louis probably shouldn't have employed LaRue with what little impact he had and his mental well being.

jojo
09-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Nice framing of the facts there Jojo.

"framing"? Just watch the video, forget who is in the uniforms and explain why someone should have been kicked in the head with spikes.

Cueto ran straight to the eye of the storm then started kicking when the crowd moved to the wall.

For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????

Cueto's actions cause hism to stick out of that crowd.

camisadelgolf
09-20-2010, 04:47 PM
For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????

Cueto's actions cause hism to stick out of that crowd.
I think most of us are being biased against the Cardinals, but to be fair, there weren't any Reds near Cueto when he was being pinned against the net. His actions were uncalled for, but that could explain why no Reds were hit.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 04:48 PM
jojo, what on earth are you watching? he's being pushed up against the backstop with Cardinals directly in front of him, and you don't see why someone might kick to gain separation out of that? How can you not get that?

sivman17
09-20-2010, 04:52 PM
He was probably thinking, "Someone's going to pay me a million dollars to play baseball." I'm not even sure I'd let fifty concussions stop me from doing that.

He made over 15 million by the age of 33. With all the education and research being done in the NFL regarding the long-term complications of repeated concussions, he really should have seen the writing on the wall.

I'm not sure if I would further impair my future mental and physical health for a million dollars if I already have 15 million in my back pocket.

westofyou
09-20-2010, 04:53 PM
He made over 15 million by the age of 33. With all the education and research being done in the NFL regarding the long-term complications of repeated concussions, he really should have seen the writing on the wall.

I'm not sure if I would further impair my future mental and physical health for a million dollars if I already have 15 million in my back pocket.

Education?

Looks like the NFL was dragged screaming and kicking to that class.

They get little credit (in my book) for acknowledging a problem that they turned their back on for decades.

RedsManRick
09-20-2010, 05:11 PM
Cueto ran straight to the eye of the storm then started kicking when the crowd moved to the wall.

For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????

Cueto's actions cause hism to stick out of that crowd.

Nobody "should have been" kicked in the head and I've not asserted otherwise. But it's a long ways from "should not have happened" to criminal activity. Nobody "should have been" involved in any of that fracas.

Maybe Cueto didn't kick any Reds because no Reds were going after him? Maybe he didn't feel threatened by his teammates? Survival mode does not equal flailing blindly.

I guess I don't understand your argument Jojo. Do you think Cueto went out of his way to try and hurt somebody by kicking them? Do you think he had intent to harm? Do you think he should be sued?

I think he ran in to the fray to protect his teammates. He got caught in the surge towards the netting and ended up with his back up against it, leaning back over the wall. Feeling prone and threatened, he instinctively started kicking at Cardinals players who were coming towards him. It lasted all of 5 seconds.

I don't think he should have kicked anybody, but I understand why he did.

Cedric
09-20-2010, 05:15 PM
People don't take into account a few things when calculating money. Just because a player had a 15 million dollar salary over his career doesn't mean he got near that with taxes.

Also a player might live a lifestyle based on their salary and not expect to retire at 33. I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be rich. I've just seen countless times where a person lives on a certain salary and doesn't exactly prepare for having no income at age 33.

camisadelgolf
09-20-2010, 05:25 PM
That's a good point, Cedric. When you factor taxes, agents, lawyers, etc., baseball players probably don't get half the money they supposedly earn. It's also relevant to mention that the more money a player makes, the more he expects to earn in the future, which could greatly increase spending. We've all heard stories of people going bankrupt despite having earned millions of dollars in one's career. For all we know, LaRue could have recently bought a multi-million-dollar house and needed just a few hundred thousand dollars more to finish paying it off.

sivman17
09-20-2010, 05:29 PM
Not that I can speak since I've never been in that situation making millions of dollars, but I'm sorry, I do not have sympathy for professional athletes that make millions and then go bankrupt. All pro athletes, in any sport, realize that every play, every pitch, every game could be their last.

All I'm saying is that an average, backup catcher with a long history of concussions really should have thought twice about continuing his career. Chances are he was going to retire in the next year or so anyway. He made a lot of money. Even if he only netted half of that 19 million, that's still a whole heckuva lot more than any of us will make in our lifetime.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 05:37 PM
Not that I can speak since I've never been in that situation making millions of dollars, but I'm sorry, I do not have sympathy for professional athletes that make millions and then go bankrupt. All pro athletes, in any sport, realize that every play, every pitch, every game could be their last.

All I'm saying is that an average, backup catcher with a long history of concussions really should have thought twice about continuing his career. Chances are he was going to retire in the next year or so anyway. He made a lot of money. Even if he only netted half of that 19 million, that's still a whole heckuva lot more than any of us will make in our lifetime.

Have you ever lived above and beyond your means? Just because they earn more money than you do doesn't mean it's not possible for them to do the same. We all, by nature, spend more when we have more.

They get taxed a higher percentage, including paying taxes for every city they play in, have 4% taken out for agents, $50 subtracted every day they're on an active roster for Union Dues, $20-25 they pay each day at home for clubhouse dues and often have to maintain residency in at least two places--one for during the season and the other for their family if they don't want to live in the city they play.

Yes they make a lot of money, but their expenses are through the roof. Some players like Jason LaRue probably don't have it made necessarily. On top of the expenses, once you get accustomed to a lifestyle, it's easy to take that for granted and get dependent on it.

It would be wise to invest and put money back, but every citizen could/should say that, and not enough do.

The Operator
09-20-2010, 05:53 PM
For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????I'm guessing because no Reds players were going after him.


Cueto's actions cause him to stick out of that crowd.Sure, after the fact, when we all know what to look for and who to single out.

fearofpopvol1
09-20-2010, 06:52 PM
"framing"? Just watch the video, forget who is in the uniforms and explain why someone should have been kicked in the head with spikes.

Cueto ran straight to the eye of the storm then started kicking when the crowd moved to the wall.

For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????

Cueto's actions cause hism to stick out of that crowd.

Fight or flight. People aren't always rational when fight or flight mode sets in. It doesn't make it right and I feel bad that LaRue got kicked and I'm sure Cueto does too. It's not like Cueto is a dirty player and has a history of doing dirty things. Doesn't past player history hold any value in jojo's court?

Joseph
09-20-2010, 07:02 PM
Have you ever lived above and beyond your means? Just because they earn more money than you do doesn't mean it's not possible for them to do the same. We all, by nature, spend more when we have more.

They get taxed a higher percentage, including paying taxes for every city they play in, have 4% taken out for agents, $50 subtracted every day they're on an active roster for Union Dues, $20-25 they pay each day at home for clubhouse dues and often have to maintain residency in at least two places--one for during the season and the other for their family if they don't want to live in the city they play.

Yes they make a lot of money, but their expenses are through the roof. Some players like Jason LaRue probably don't have it made necessarily. On top of the expenses, once you get accustomed to a lifestyle, it's easy to take that for granted and get dependent on it.

It would be wise to invest and put money back, but every citizen could/should say that, and not enough do.

Certainly its possible for them to live beyond their means, just like normal people. I don't feel sorry for normal people who live beyond their means either though. They are afforded a great deal of luxury in life, its hard to muster any sympathy for any of them who lose it all be it through addiction, mismanagement or just living too lavish a lifestyle. Especially when I'm schlepping around for Junior Griffey's gold glove bonus money.

Again, regular folks don't do it either, but I don't feel bad for them if they bought a house they can't afford or 3 cars or a big screen TV all while maxing out their credit cards. That's not misfortune, that's stupidity.

Hopefully LaRue was wise enough with his money not to lose his 500 acre ranch in Texas. Hopefully everyone on here is wise enough not to lose their 'ranch' either. I won't feel sorry for anyone who does though if they were foolish with their bills.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Certainly its possible for them to live beyond their means, just like normal people. I don't feel sorry for normal people who live beyond their means either though. They are afforded a great deal of luxury in life, its hard to muster any sympathy for any of them who lose it all be it through addiction, mismanagement or just living too lavish a lifestyle. Especially when I'm schlepping around for Junior Griffey's gold glove bonus money.

Again, regular folks don't do it either, but I don't feel bad for them if they bought a house they can't afford or 3 cars or a big screen TV all while maxing out their credit cards. That's not misfortune, that's stupidity.

Hopefully LaRue was wise enough with his money not to lose his 500 acre ranch in Texas. Hopefully everyone on here is wise enough not to lose their 'ranch' either. I won't feel sorry for anyone who does though if they were foolish with their bills.

Well, I feel bad for anyone that mismanages their finances, not that it's not usually their fault, just that it's still unfortunate.

But I don't disagree with anything you've said. I'm just merely pointing out that sometimes athletes get a rap because they've lived beyond their means when that's a problem that is not unique to them but people of all financial standing. I'm not saying they, or anyone, deserve a pass for doing so, just that I don't think it's fair to criticize them while letting others off the hook for the same mismanagement.

The Voice of IH
09-20-2010, 07:59 PM
This has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I just watched the tape again of the fight, and it looks like Scott Rolen was not the only person trying to play piece maker. Felipe Lopez ran over to try to calm down Brandon Phillips...cool

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 08:07 PM
We're throwing around "brawl" like they were in a cage... Pushing, shoving, potty mouths, spikes to a head.... which one seems abnormal for a typical bench clearing in baseball?

I kinda have to agree with you here.

Baseball "brawls" are usually a joke and barely can be called dangerous. This one did get out of hand, but still, it's hard to believe that anyone actually was scared at any point, even if they were pinned u against the fence. If this happened at a hockey game, Cueto's actions are more defendable. But in a baseball brawl he felt he had to kick people to save himself? Really?

jojo
09-20-2010, 08:29 PM
jojo, what on earth are you watching? he's being pushed up against the backstop with Cardinals directly in front of him, and you don't see why someone might kick to gain separation out of that? How can you not get that?

I've been in similar situations at concerts and didn't get kicked in the head nor did I kick anyone in the head....

He (Cueto) was an aggressor to get in his position he was in and it's a reasonable assumption to make that his kicking was with intent. He was in fight mode not flight mode IMHO. And he's very, very lucky.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 08:31 PM
I've been in similar situations at concerts and didn't get kicked in the head nor did I kick anyone in the head....

He (Cueto) was an aggressor to get in his position he was in and it's a reasonable assumption to make that his kicking was with intent. He was in fight mode not flight mode IMHO. And he's very, very lucky.

I'm klaustrophobic, and to be perfectly honest, when I get into enclosed spaces or tight groups, I'm pushing, kicking and shoving to get out of them. They have always frightened me. Some people naturally panic in those situations. Perhaps Cueto is one of them?

If you're not klaustrophobic, then I suspect you don't know how terrifying it is. I can relate to it because I've grown up with it all my life.

jojo
09-20-2010, 08:36 PM
I'm guessing because no Reds players were going after him.

Sure, after the fact, when we all know what to look for and who to single out.

Cueto's right side was comprised of teammates....

It's easy to single out one of the only people actually throwing blows....

The Operator
09-20-2010, 08:38 PM
This isn't Nyjer Morgan we're talking about, it's Johnny Cueto. A guy who has no history of any behavior of that kind to my knowledge.

He shouldn't have kicked anyone but for any of us to act like we would or wouldn't have done this or that had we been there, is a bit silly in my opinion. None of us were there, at that time, in that situation.

The Operator
09-20-2010, 08:40 PM
Cueto's right side was comprised of teammates.... But I doubt he was scared of his teammates.

jojo
09-20-2010, 08:40 PM
Nobody "should have been" kicked in the head and I've not asserted otherwise. But it's a long ways from "should not have happened" to criminal activity. Nobody "should have been" involved in any of that fracas.

Maybe Cueto didn't kick any Reds because no Reds were going after him? Maybe he didn't feel threatened by his teammates? Survival mode does not equal flailing blindly.

I guess I don't understand your argument Jojo. Do you think Cueto went out of his way to try and hurt somebody by kicking them? Do you think he had intent to harm? Do you think he should be sued?

I think he ran in to the fray to protect his teammates. He got caught in the surge towards the netting and ended up with his back up against it, leaning back over the wall. Feeling prone and threatened, he instinctively started kicking at Cardinals players who were coming towards him. It lasted all of 5 seconds.

I don't think he should have kicked anybody, but I understand why he did.

I think a professional baseball player doesn't use his spikes like Cueto did without intent. They've been wearing them too long to not understand the consequences. I think he clearly was being aggressive given how he ended up in the position that he did. It's hard to excuse anything he did by suggesting he felt threatened because he charged the eye of the storm.

jojo
09-20-2010, 08:41 PM
But I doubt he was scared of his teammates.

He wasn't too scared to aggressively charge the people he started kicking....

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 08:41 PM
I've been in similar situations at concerts and didn't get kicked in the head nor did I kick anyone in the head....

He (Cueto) was an aggressor to get in his position he was in and it's a reasonable assumption to make that his kicking was with intent. He was in fight mode not flight mode IMHO. And he's very, very lucky.

This is where I have to disagree. Cueto might have some intent with his kick, but it is not reasonable to assume that his intent was to hurt someone. Was it stupid to do it? Absolutely. Was it unjustified? Absolutely. But neither you nor I nor any one not named Johnny Cueto can make any reasonable guess as to his intent. Chances are, even Johnny doesn't know exactly why he started kicking.

TheNext44
09-20-2010, 08:44 PM
I think a professional baseball player doesn't use his spikes like Cueto did without intent. They've been wearing them too long to not understand the consequences. I think he clearly was being aggressive given how he ended up in the position that he did. It's hard to excuse anything he did by suggesting he felt threatened because he charged the eye of the storm.

You are a much wiser man Johnny Cueto probably will ever be. I doubt he even remembered that he was wearing spikes.

jojo
09-20-2010, 08:45 PM
This is where I have to disagree. Cueto might have some intent with his kick, but it is not reasonable to assume that his intent was to hurt someone.

You don't wear spikes for a living without understanding on every level of your being that hitting someone with them can cause serious injury.

Every guy on the field probably has 10 different horror stories about spikes.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 08:48 PM
You don't wear spikes for a living without understanding on every level of your being that hitting someone with them can cause serious injury.

Every guy on the field probably has 10 different horror stories about spikes.

On the other hand, when you wear spikes 162 days out of the year, you probably get so used to having them on it's often easy to forget that you are wearing them.

jojo
09-20-2010, 09:02 PM
On the other hand, when you wear spikes 162 days out of the year, you probably get so used to having them on it's often easy to forget that you are wearing them.


Pitchers seem especially aware of foot-related issues for some reason.

RFS62
09-20-2010, 09:04 PM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 09:04 PM
Pitchers seem especially aware of foot-related issues for some reason.

No pun intended here, but I think this situation well applies to "until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes." Well, OK perhaps the pun was a little intentional.

_Sir_Charles_
09-20-2010, 09:09 PM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

Sucinct and to the point as usual. Well said.

Yachtzee
09-20-2010, 09:33 PM
PIf you don't want to get hurt in a brawl, don't enter a brawl. Its as simple as that. And I doubt any legal action results. It would make a good exam question for a torts final though, because you could probably argue multiple defenses. LaRue's own actions would be heavily scrutinized. It's not like LaRue was minding his own business and Cueto jumped out and yelled "Boot to the head" when he kicked him. His own actions as an agressor would certainly come into play. Being a professional athlete at the end of his career having already made millions doesn't make him the most sympathetic plaintiff either. It's not likely that lost future earnings as a ballplayer would factor into an award as he's pretty much indicated a planned retirement.

Not to make light LaRue's injuries or imply that anyone was right in this incident, but I'm surprised no one has pointed out how smart it was for Cueto to kick instead of punch and risk injuring his pitching hand.

WMR
09-20-2010, 10:00 PM
PIf you don't want to get hurt in a brawl, don't enter a brawl. Its as simple as that. And I doubt any legal action results. It would make a good exam question for a torts final though, because you could probably argue multiple defenses. LaRue's own actions would be heavily scrutinized. It's not like LaRue was minding his own business and Cueto jumped out and yelled "Boot to the head" when he kicked him. His own actions as an agressor would certainly come into play. Being a professional athlete at the end of his career having already made millions doesn't make him the most sympathetic plaintiff either. It's not likely that lost future earnings as a ballplayer would factor into an award as he's pretty much indicated a planned retirement.

Not to make light LaRue's injuries or imply that anyone was right in this incident, but I'm surprised no one has pointed out how smart it was for Cueto to kick instead of punch and risk injuring his pitching hand.

Exactly. I say we mail him a blu-ray of The Karate Kid so he can work on his technique the next time a Cardinal comes at him like a maniac. :D

traderumor
09-20-2010, 11:35 PM
"framing"? Just watch the video, forget who is in the uniforms and explain why someone should have been kicked in the head with spikes.

Cueto ran straight to the eye of the storm then started kicking when the crowd moved to the wall.

For all of those claiming "survival mode", why didn't Cueto kick any Reds??????

Cueto's actions cause hism to stick out of that crowd.What does the fact that he didn't kick guys on the same side of his have to do with the "survival mode" argument? He was perceiving being attacked, so he defended himself against attackers, who were not his teammates.

Starting to look like arguing for the sake of arguing now, Jojo.

reds44
09-21-2010, 12:02 AM
I'm really surprised this has gone 11 pages.

It was a brawl.
Cueto kicked LaRue in the head.
LaRue got concussion.
Don't want to get a concussion, don't enter fight.

Pretty simple.

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 12:46 AM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

Spot-on. And as it's been pointed out before, Cueto does not have a history of being a malicious character.

Larkin Fan
09-21-2010, 01:20 AM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

There you go again injecting logic into the argument. Geesh. ;)

jojo
09-21-2010, 04:37 AM
Spot-on. And as it's been pointed out before, Cueto does not have a history of being a malicious character.

He does now.

We've heard that LaRue has no valid reason to point out Cueto's behavior. In fact he's been called classless for doing so.

Watching the video however illustrates that Cueto had a choice concerning his role in the "brawl". He charged directly to the spot then started flailing toward Cardinals with his feet, hitting LaRue in the head. He was in control enough to charge Cardinals and only hit Cardinals in a ruckus in which he was one of the few individuals actually throwing blows of any kind.

This is hardly microanalyzing or arguing for the sake of it. It's watching the video to see the role Cueto played....

Everyone one of us dreams of having just one major league at bat. LaRue's career was cut short by at least 2 months because Cueto spiked him in the head during something that isn't baseball. That's two months of a pennant race too. Unfortunate doesn't seem like an inappropriate adjective in this case IMHO.

Roy Tucker
09-21-2010, 07:54 AM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

+1

It rivals Seinfeld's spit.

Cyclone792
09-21-2010, 08:48 AM
LaRue is a 36-year-old backup catcher who's posted a .600 OPS the last five years and who had a whole 63 plate appearances through early August. As far as I'm concerned, LaRue's career was over anyway, but you know who will just use the Cueto kick as a scapegoat.

As for LaRue himself, I hope he doesn't turn this into a whiny anti-Reds stance. He had a run of three to four decent seasons in a Reds uniform, and I'd much prefer to remember him for that (though I do know he left town unhappy due to Ross outperforming him and stealing his job in 2006).

bucksfan2
09-21-2010, 08:59 AM
Have you ever lived above and beyond your means? Just because they earn more money than you do doesn't mean it's not possible for them to do the same. We all, by nature, spend more when we have more.

They get taxed a higher percentage, including paying taxes for every city they play in, have 4% taken out for agents, $50 subtracted every day they're on an active roster for Union Dues, $20-25 they pay each day at home for clubhouse dues and often have to maintain residency in at least two places--one for during the season and the other for their family if they don't want to live in the city they play.

Yes they make a lot of money, but their expenses are through the roof. Some players like Jason LaRue probably don't have it made necessarily. On top of the expenses, once you get accustomed to a lifestyle, it's easy to take that for granted and get dependent on it.

It would be wise to invest and put money back, but every citizen could/should say that, and not enough do.

Im going to take you to task on some of this.

As for taxes they do get taxed at a higher rate. However during the Bush tax cut era it wasn't nearly as bad. It wasn't like the 70% tax rate in the Carter (I believe) era. My uncle likes to say "I wish I had to pay $1M in taxes because that means I made a lot more money than that.

As for agents they are a necessary evil in today's sports environment. But lets also not forget that LaRue probably had some sponsorship deals during his time in the majors. I am not sure but I would be surprised if LaRue wasn't a John Deere sponsor during his time in Cincy.

The union dues are one thing, but LaRue has played long enough that he is completely vested in MLB's retirement program. LaRue will see those $50 union deals in some form of pension. You also can't forget the per diem that players get on the road. They aren't exactly being paid like they are eating at McDonalds for every meal. Also it is my understanding that food is provided before and after the game at the clubhouse.

Lets say he took home roughly 50% of his lifetime salary thats a nice chunk of change to live off of. And no I don't feel sorry for him and if he lived above his means and blew through a lot of his money that is his problem. I have a tough time feeling sorry for someone whose per diem per day on the road is more than a lot of people make in that day or even week.

edabbs44
09-21-2010, 09:19 AM
I'm really surprised this has gone 11 pages.

It was a brawl.
Cueto kicked LaRue in the head.
LaRue got concussion.
Don't want to get a concussion, don't enter fight.

Pretty simple.

I agree that the back and forth on this has reached semi-ridiculous levels, but I have to disagree with this, at least in part. This isn't a steel cage match we are talking about. Cueto shouldn't be kicking people in the face with his cleats the same way it wouldn't be ok for any player to grab a bat and start beating people with it, or Chapman to start pegging people in the head with fastballs, or if Dennys Reyes started earthquaking people on home plate.

durl
09-21-2010, 10:42 AM
Man...interesting thread and theories. I have to admit that this whole episode is just way too complex for baseball. It's a game.

Cueto may not have delivered THE blow to end LaRue's career but, let's face it, Cueto shoved him toward the finish line. A lot has been said about "mob mentality" and how people react in such situations. But I also read something pretty profound recently, "what's inside of me spills out when people bump into me." I would like to think that I wouldn't react the same as Cueto, but there's no way to know until I'm in that situation.

There's a lot of blame to go around. Phillips should have shown more maturity when talking to the press. Molina could have stayed in his squat when Phillips came to bat. Carpenter could have kept his mouth shut. Cueto could have held his legs up in defense or pushed himself back into the net, letting the wall keep other players from crushing in on him.

Maybe I'm too "nice," but rather than waiting to see who's going to get beaned every time these teams face each other, I'd like to see them put this behind them and play the game. Let the captains meet face-to-face and say, "It's over. Let's play the game. Pick a reason: let's not risk permanent injury, there are kids in the stands, it's a GAME, whatever. It's done, and it's time to move on."

I love rivalries. I just have concerns that this is moving beyond a rivalry...beyond a game. It's starting get personal and I find no entertainment value in that.

jojo
09-21-2010, 10:55 AM
Here's how I think about it and why I'm so uncharitable to Cueto... What if his spikes struck a few inches over (these weren't precision blows after all)..... and they hit an eye, sliced an ear, or hit a throat....

This conversation would be completely different and the thing is, it's mostly luck that his spikes hit LaRue where they did.

Now if you watch LaRue he was mostly chaperoning his load mouthed pitcher. This really wasn't the Cardinals "charging" Cueto either-he wasn't a target. He basically charged the focal point of the rucus as the crowd began moving toward the wall/net. Then he started flailing his spikes only at cardinal uniforms.

Seriously, this isn't arguing to argue or anti Reds crap because I'm also a Mariners fan.

This was the luckiest moment of the Reds season and likely Cueto's career IMHO.

OnBaseMachine
09-21-2010, 12:52 PM
This was the luckiest moment of the Reds season and likely Cueto's career IMHO.

Agreed. We're lucky Cueto didn't get injured in that brawl.

jojo
09-21-2010, 12:59 PM
Agreed. We're lucky Cueto didn't get injured in that brawl.

Or suspended for 100 games.

OnBaseMachine
09-21-2010, 01:00 PM
Or suspended for 100 games.

If Cueto deserved a 100 game suspension then Carpenter deserved a 120 game suspension for escalating the whole thing.

I can't believe people expect a 5'10" 180 pound guy to just stand in a corner and get piled on by a large group. It's not going to happen. Instincts kick in (no pun intended), and at that point you do whatever you can to escape danger.

jojo
09-21-2010, 01:03 PM
If Cueto deserved a 100 game suspension then Carpenter deserved a 120 game suspension for escalating the whole thing.

Sigh.

OnBaseMachine
09-21-2010, 01:05 PM
Sigh.

Nice! :thumbup:

westofyou
09-21-2010, 01:05 PM
If Cueto deserved a 100 game suspension then Carpenter deserved a 120 game suspension for escalating the whole thing.

Sticks and stones

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 01:09 PM
He does now.

We've heard that LaRue has no valid reason to point out Cueto's behavior. In fact he's been called classless for doing so.

Watching the video however illustrates that Cueto had a choice concerning his role in the "brawl". He charged directly to the spot then started flailing toward Cardinals with his feet, hitting LaRue in the head. He was in control enough to charge Cardinals and only hit Cardinals in a ruckus in which he was one of the few individuals actually throwing blows of any kind.

This is hardly microanalyzing or arguing for the sake of it. It's watching the video to see the role Cueto played....

Everyone one of us dreams of having just one major league at bat. LaRue's career was cut short by at least 2 months because Cueto spiked him in the head during something that isn't baseball. That's two months of a pennant race too. Unfortunate doesn't seem like an inappropriate adjective in this case IMHO.

I don't think most people are arguing that LaRue can't talk about it or have an opinion...but for him to blame his career ending because of Cueto is classless, especially when he was directly involved in the brawl and if nothing else, he was escalating or helping to escalate the brawl.

LaRue knew the consequences of getting involved in the brawl. Any player who doesn't understand that they could get hurt when they enter a melee is misguided and idiotic in my opinion.

Again, I'm not condoning what Cueto did, but anybody with an ounce of common sense understands that people can and do get hurt when they enter a brawl.

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 01:16 PM
Here's how I think about it and why I'm so uncharitable to Cueto... What if his spikes struck a few inches over (these weren't precision blows after all)..... and they hit an eye, sliced an ear, or hit a throat....

This conversation would be completely different and the thing is, it's mostly luck that his spikes hit LaRue where they did.

Now if you watch LaRue he was mostly chaperoning his load mouthed pitcher. This really wasn't the Cardinals "charging" Cueto either-he wasn't a target. He basically charged the focal point of the rucus as the crowd began moving toward the wall/net. Then he started flailing his spikes only at cardinal uniforms.

Seriously, this isn't arguing to argue or anti Reds crap because I'm also a Mariners fan.

This was the luckiest moment of the Reds season and likely Cueto's career IMHO.

And what if Cueto, when he was pushed up against the nets, got punched in the eye by LaRue and lost his sight in one eye? How do we know that LaRue wouldn't have done that? You're posing hypothetical scenarios and the hypothetical is just that...hypothetical.

If LaRue didn't get involved in the BRAWL, he would have never been kicked in the head, no? How's that for hypothetical?

Cueto is a quiet guy who has never had any behavioral issues on the field or elsewhere. If he had a history of this kind of behavior, I would maybe have a different view. I give him the benefit of the doubt this time unbiasedly.

reds44
09-21-2010, 01:18 PM
I don't think most people are arguing that LaRue can't talk about it or have an opinion...but for him to blame his career ending because of Cueto is classless, especially when he was directly involved in the brawl and if nothing else, he was escalating or helping to escalate the brawl.

LaRue knew the consequences of getting involved in the brawl. Any player who doesn't understand that they could get hurt when they enter a melee is misguided and idiotic in my opinion.

Again, I'm not condoning what Cueto did, but anybody with an ounce of common sense understands that people can and do get hurt when they enter a brawl.
Yep. Look people, nobody is saying Cueto was "right" in what he did. Common sense tells you he was wrong, that's why he got suspended for 7 games. If my career ended because I got kicked in the head I'd be upset too. Again, it was a brawl and you should know what the risk of danger is when you enter it. It's done, move on.

Roy Tucker
09-21-2010, 01:24 PM
I needed to go back and re-read Larue's comments because it sure seems like he set off quite a few people in here and I thought I missed something.

But I thought they were all fairly reasonable.

:shrug:

jojo
09-21-2010, 01:26 PM
And what if Cueto, when he was pushed up against the nets, got punched in the eye by LaRue and lost his sight in one eye? How do we know that LaRue wouldn't have done that? You're posing hypothetical scenarios and the hypothetical is just that...hypothetical.

LaRue wasn't throwing punches. Cueto's shoe struck LaRue's head.


Cueto is a quiet guy who has never had any behavioral issues on the field or elsewhere. If he had a history of this kind of behavior, I would maybe have a different view. I give him the benefit of the doubt this time unbiasedly.

Cueto charged loudmouth aggressively and was kicking with spiked shoes. He now has a history.

reds44
09-21-2010, 01:30 PM
LaRue wasn't throwing punches. Cueto's shoe struck LaRue's head.



Cueto charged loudmouth aggressively and was kicking with spiked shoes. He now has a history.
What are you watching? Where do you see Cueto charging anybody? He comes strolling out of the dugout well after everything calmed down and is on the outside of everything. Then Carpenter says whatever, everything blows up, and Cueto ends up getting pinned against the wall, then starts kicking.

lollipopcurve
09-21-2010, 01:33 PM
Or suspended for 100 games.

Meanwhile, in reality, MLB found it fit to suspend Cueto for 7 games.

Methinks someone is pissy about how well the Reds' season has gone.

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 01:33 PM
LaRue wasn't throwing punches. Cueto's shoe struck LaRue's head.

Cueto's shoe did stike his head, we know this. But you pointed out that it could have hit LaRue in the eye (even though it didn't). I pointed out that LaRue could have punched Cueto if this thing had gone on longer (even though he didn't). One hypothetical vs. another.


Cueto charged loudmouth aggressively and was kicking with spiked shoes. He now has a history.

Yep...now he does. He didn't before. Let's see what happens in the future.

reds44
09-21-2010, 01:34 PM
Meanwhile, in reality, MLB found it fit to suspend Cueto for 7 games.

Methinks someone is pissy about how well the Reds' season has gone.
7 games, 100 games, same thing.

jojo
09-21-2010, 01:34 PM
Meanwhile, in reality, MLB found it fit to suspend Cueto for 7 games.

Methinks someone is pissy about how well the Reds' season has gone.

Please go private with the unjustified, unfounded vitriol.

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 01:35 PM
Please go private with the unjustified, unfounded vitriol.

Pretty sure he was talking about LaRue, not you.

jojo
09-21-2010, 01:35 PM
What are you watching? Where do you see Cueto charging anybody? He comes strolling out of the dugout well after everything calmed down and is on the outside of everything. Then Carpenter says whatever, everything blows up, and Cueto ends up getting pinned against the wall, then starts kicking.

Focus on how Cueto "ended up" against that wall.

lollipopcurve
09-21-2010, 01:36 PM
Please go private with the unjustified, unfounded vitriol.

My advice to you is to try harder to enjoy the team's success.

jojo
09-21-2010, 01:37 PM
My advice to you is to try harder to enjoy the team's success.

Seriously, go private with the baiting-please?

camisadelgolf
09-21-2010, 01:38 PM
Thread getting closed in 3 . . . 2 . . .

RANDY IN INDY
09-21-2010, 01:42 PM
Man, the incredible analysis of every micro-second of this brawl is something to behold.

It looked to me like it was over in a few seconds. To suggest that they all should have thought out the potential ramifications of their actions is hilarious.

It was a brawl. Nobody thought anything out. It was all reactions, fight or flight.

If the thread is going to end or be closed, why not end it with the post that makes the most sense?

lollipopcurve
09-21-2010, 01:42 PM
Thread getting closed in 3 . . . 2 . . .

Can't wait!

Heath
09-21-2010, 02:11 PM
The thread is staying open if you can get back on topic, if not, yeppers it'll be gonzo.

Brutus
09-21-2010, 04:09 PM
Im going to take you to task on some of this.

As for taxes they do get taxed at a higher rate. However during the Bush tax cut era it wasn't nearly as bad. It wasn't like the 70% tax rate in the Carter (I believe) era. My uncle likes to say "I wish I had to pay $1M in taxes because that means I made a lot more money than that.

As for agents they are a necessary evil in today's sports environment. But lets also not forget that LaRue probably had some sponsorship deals during his time in the majors. I am not sure but I would be surprised if LaRue wasn't a John Deere sponsor during his time in Cincy.

The union dues are one thing, but LaRue has played long enough that he is completely vested in MLB's retirement program. LaRue will see those $50 union deals in some form of pension. You also can't forget the per diem that players get on the road. They aren't exactly being paid like they are eating at McDonalds for every meal. Also it is my understanding that food is provided before and after the game at the clubhouse.

Lets say he took home roughly 50% of his lifetime salary thats a nice chunk of change to live off of. And no I don't feel sorry for him and if he lived above his means and blew through a lot of his money that is his problem. I have a tough time feeling sorry for someone whose per diem per day on the road is more than a lot of people make in that day or even week.

Why not take anyone to task that overspends their means? Why pluck out star athletes and not the everyday Joe citizen? Millions of Americans are going bankrupt because they're overspending, defaulting on their loan and credit obligations, and yet it's the athletes that get singled out as needing no sympathy for blowing through a wad of money? Kind of seems hypocritical to me.

Yes, ballplayers get $85 per diem on the road in cash. But unlike the people that have to live off that, they also have to pay for tips for room service at a 5-star accommodation, buy their meals, pay for cab fares if they want to go out, etc. They're living over a quarter of the year on the road. Throw in the fact they have to typically hold two different housing quarters, and it gets expensive.

Let's use someone like Jason LaRue as an example. Assuming a $2 million salary (a few seasons he earned more than that, though most of which were less), it's safe to assume that nearly $800,000 a year is taken out in federal, state and local taxes. Another $48,000 of the remaining $1.2 million would be taken in agent fees and almost $10,000 in union dues and $5,000 in clubhouse dues. So you're probably saying, OK big deal, $1.1 million left, right?

Mortgage or rent on two houses, probably wipes that amount in half. If he wants his spouse/kids to go to baseball games? Throw in the amounts to pay for his family to sometimes travel with him on the road (or to home games if they live in a second city), paying taxes on every ticket that is purchased for friends or family, and though LaRue is living comfortably, it's probably not as glamorous as people assume.

Jason LaRue money isn't the same as A-Rod money. Given the lifestyle baseball players are forced to live, incurring many expenses that the average Joe doesn't have to incur, their level of security isn't as high as players routinely making $10 mil a year or (especially) A-Rod money. I'm not saying all ballplayers don't have it made, but the majority of them aren't raking it in hand and fist.

I do think LaRue should be able to comfortably put back in savings, or investing in annuities, CDs or some other form of pension in addition to the benefits plan, so there isn't any excuse for going bankrupt. But it's not inconceivable to me how someone could get themselves in a situation they need to rely on a continual playing career because their expenses exceeded that of their income. After all, that trend is unfortunately one that most Americans have become involved in.

bucksfan2
09-21-2010, 04:37 PM
Why not take anyone to task that overspends their means? Why pluck out star athletes and not the everyday Joe citizen? Millions of Americans are going bankrupt because they're overspending, defaulting on their loan and credit obligations, and yet it's the athletes that get singled out as needing no sympathy for blowing through a wad of money? Kind of seems hypocritical to me.

I don't really feel sorry for people who go belly up because they live outside of their means.


Yes, ballplayers get $85 per diem on the road in cash. But unlike the people that have to live off that, they also have to pay for tips for room service at a 5-star accommodation, buy their meals, pay for cab fares if they want to go out, etc. They're living over a quarter of the year on the road. Throw in the fact they have to typically hold two different housing quarters, and it gets expensive.

They basically have to take care of their breakfast and maybe dinner depending on if they want to go out or not. As I have said above it is my understanding that food is readily available in the clubhouse. As for cab fares and other expenditures if they want to go out, it is no different that me or my friend wanting to go out to a bar. If you are intelligent that $85/day can go a long way.


Let's use someone like Jason LaRue as an example. Assuming a $2 million salary (a few seasons he earned more than that, though most of which were less), it's safe to assume that nearly $800,000 a year is taken out in federal, state and local taxes. Another $48,000 of the remaining $1.2 million would be taken in agent fees and almost $10,000 in union dues and $5,000 in clubhouse dues. So you're probably saying, OK big deal, $1.1 million left, right?

The union dues are something all together different. They would be similar to a 401K that people put away at their work. Granted not all of the money goes towards retirement, but I would be ecstatic if I could get something similar to the MLB Pension fund. So we basically are saying that LaRue cleared $1.1M over the course of his career not including any other revenue streams. LaRue wasn't a big marketing guy, but I am pretty sure that he had some revenue, especially in his Cincy days, coming in from marketing.


Mortgage or rent on two houses, probably wipes that amount in half. If he wants his spouse/kids to go to baseball games? Throw in the amounts to pay for his family to sometimes travel with him on the road (or to home games if they live in a second city), paying taxes on every ticket that is purchased for friends or family, and though LaRue is living comfortably, it's probably not as glamorous as people assume.

It is my understanding that most players will either rent a house or own a condo in the city they play in. Were not talking about an athlete having two sizable mortgages in different cities. I have a buddy who lives in a condo complex in Dayton, Ky and there are several athletes who live there. Its a nice place but it is hardly a back breaker when it comes to mortgages, especially if you consider LaRue clearing $1.1M.


Jason LaRue money isn't the same as A-Rod money. Given the lifestyle baseball players are forced to live, incurring many expenses that the average Joe doesn't have to incur, their level of security isn't as high as players routinely making $10 mil a year or (especially) A-Rod money. I'm not saying all ballplayers don't have it made, but the majority of them aren't raking it in hand and fist.

I do think LaRue should be able to comfortably put back in savings, or investing in annuities, CDs or some other form of pension in addition to the benefits plan, so there isn't any excuse for going bankrupt. But it's not inconceivable to me how someone could get themselves in a situation they need to rely on a continual playing career because their expenses exceeded that of their income. After all, that trend is unfortunately one that most Americans have become involved in.

I would hope that a guy who has made as much in his career as LaRue did is able to live comfortably. You also have to consider that once he is done with playing baseball there will be a job available in baseball for a guy like LaRue. Most of his high dollar earning potential is gone, but that still doesn't mean he can't make a comfortable amount of money a year teaching, coaching, or in media.

My issue is when you have had 19 self diagnosed concussions it may be time to hang up the cleats. Maybe money is an issue for LaRue and if so then I don't have as big of an issue for him playing for .9M this season.

TheNext44
09-21-2010, 04:38 PM
Here's a quick summation of my position on this.

1) Cueto kicked wildly in the middle of the brawl. An unforgivable offense.
2) However, no matter how many times we watch the video, we can not undertand why Cueto kicked wildly. It happened far to quickly, and which such a mob mentatlity that it is doubtful that even Cueto understands why he kicked so wildly. At best for Cueto, it was an act without thought, an act of pure stupidity. At worst, it was the act of an angry, scared man in the heat of the middle of a fight who went too far with his aggression. One think I feel strong in assuming is that Cueto never intended to hurt anyone, and has strong remorse for his actions.

3) LaRue is retiring due to the affects of that fight.
4) LaRue went out of his way in blaming Johnny Cueto for ending his career early.
5) In my opinion, this is bush league and classless, even if it is entirely true. This is a perfect example of what Brandon was refering to when he talked about the Cardinals.

There are ways of dealing with difficult situations. You can handle them with class, or you can handle them the way a WWE wrestler would handle them.

I guarantee you that if the same happened to the following players, none of them would have said what Larue said...

Albert Pujols
Ray Lankford
Willie McGee
Ozzie Smith
Jack Clark
Goerge Hendrick
John Tudor
Bob Gibson
Stan Musiel

I can guarantee that each of them would have handled the matter in more descreet way, with Gibson probably hitting the first five Red in his next games against him. But none of them would have gone out of their way to blame Cueto for ending their career, no matter how true it was.

Brutus
09-21-2010, 04:56 PM
I don't really feel sorry for people who go belly up because they live outside of their means.

Right, but that's not anywhere near just an athlete problem. People (not necessarily you but in general) seem to apply different standards to athletes doing it but not the everyday Joe that defaults on his mortgage because he took on a payment he can't afford. To me, it doesn't matter how much money you make... you either live within your means or you don't. That's all I'm saying here.



They basically have to take care of their breakfast and maybe dinner depending on if they want to go out or not. As I have said above it is my understanding that food is readily available in the clubhouse. As for cab fares and other expenditures if they want to go out, it is no different that me or my friend wanting to go out to a bar. If you are intelligent that $85/day can go a long way.

This is true at home, provided the player pays his clubhouse dues. On the road it's not so much (though occasionally a meal will be provided by the home team, but that's hit or miss). The difference here, though, if you want to go out, you can hop in your car and go wherever you please. If you're a ballplayer on the road, you have to rely on a cab or public transportation wherever you go. That can be a lot more costly when you have to do it nearly 100 nights a year. If you've ever been out of town without a vehicle, I don't know you would believe $85 will get you very far. It doesn't (especially when right off the top you're expected to tip your hotel room service for the 5-star accommodations that your team is staying in).



The union dues are something all together different. They would be similar to a 401K that people put away at their work. Granted not all of the money goes towards retirement, but I would be ecstatic if I could get something similar to the MLB Pension fund. So we basically are saying that LaRue cleared $1.1M over the course of his career not including any other revenue streams. LaRue wasn't a big marketing guy, but I am pretty sure that he had some revenue, especially in his Cincy days, coming in from marketing.

The pension is nice, but to be perfectly honest, for a ballplayer accustomed to a certain lifestyle, it's going to be a drastic change in means. A couple thousand a month will still do everything he needs it to do, but it's really not much after you've been used to nearly $100,000 a month over your professional career. As far as 'marketing' revenue, I highly doubt it. I'm sure he had a few gigs, maybe a spot or two on TV, but after his agent gets his cut (often 25-40% for endorsements and such), it amounts to pocket change.




It is my understanding that most players will either rent a house or own a condo in the city they play in. Were not talking about an athlete having two sizable mortgages in different cities. I have a buddy who lives in a condo complex in Dayton, Ky and there are several athletes who live there. Its a nice place but it is hardly a back breaker when it comes to mortgages, especially if you consider LaRue clearing $1.1M.

That's correct, but that's why I said rent/mortgage, as they'll usually rent one place and have their mortgage for a home in their city of residence. But still, if you figure a condo is $100k a year and a mortgage for a nice home is between $300 and $500,000, that's still fairly significant.




I would hope that a guy who has made as much in his career as LaRue did is able to live comfortably. You also have to consider that once he is done with playing baseball there will be a job available in baseball for a guy like LaRue. Most of his high dollar earning potential is gone, but that still doesn't mean he can't make a comfortable amount of money a year teaching, coaching, or in media.

My issue is when you have had 19 self diagnosed concussions it may be time to hang up the cleats. Maybe money is an issue for LaRue and if so then I don't have as big of an issue for him playing for .9M this season.

It's easy to say this, but when he's done playing baseball, any career he finds would be for significantly less than he's accustomed to. If you're making $100k in a marketing job and there are issues that you know are causing you to rethink your career, how easy would it be for you to give up the job knowing the replacement job might pay only $15,000? Probably not very easy. Now imagine making a million and having to face the same proposition. Easier said than done.

REDblooded
09-21-2010, 11:39 PM
Here's all you need to know about the brawl, and now the aforementioned aftereffects:

Cueto was already punished by baseball in a way they deemed fit... If a court of law wants to award damages to LaRue, it really won't effect the game...

Cueto ran into the scrum... But so did LaRue... Just as a guy with no prior offenses should use better judgment, so should a guy with 15+ concussions and a doctor's warning about his next... Had LaRue not ran to MegaphoneMouth Carp's aid, I'm pretty sure his career wouldn't be in jeopardy due to injury...

Which brings me to the next point... This is a cash grab attempt at best... LaRue's career was already in jeopardy... Even if Cueto hadn't kicked him, and instead had placed a warm healing hand on his forehead, we can't ignore the facts... LaRue is a 36 year old back-up catcher who had put up ML average numbers at best offensively and defensively in all of the past 3 seasons, and who's contract was set to expire after this season... Unless there's a fountain of non-testable PED's that he was about to discover, he was a non-roster invite at best next spring... Factor in how his likely successor in Bryan Anderson (age 25) was playing in AAA this season (.270/.348/.448), and it's all the more likely that LaRue's career was done...

To the next point: If LaRue really wants to point a finger, point it at Carp... Had he not run his mouth, it's INCREDIBLY likely that the whole thing dies down, Phillips still feels extra pressure, and chokes to the tune of a 2-20 series even without a brawl... And without anybody getting hurt, fined, suspended.

And finally: Cueto's reactions during the brawl (mostly aimed at helping JoJo break down the tape again and answer a few of his own questions)... The reason no Reds players got kicked? There weren't any Reds players standing directly in front of Cueto within legs reach... Cueto had both hands pinned behind his back. By who? Well, if you watch again, for Cueto there was no way of telling... All he could tell was he was being slammed up against the wall, the momentum of the scrum was coming his way, and he didn't have a free hand... So he kicked.

Yachtzee
09-22-2010, 04:01 PM
Any of you video analysts spot the second kicker on the grassy knoll yet? ;)

Big Klu
09-22-2010, 05:41 PM
Any of you video analysts spot the second kicker on the grassy knoll yet? ;)

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/355/860/Nungent_display_image.jpg?1282537414

TeamBoone
09-25-2010, 12:12 AM
I, for one, was sad to see LaRue traded. He was one of my favorite Reds. He played rough and tough baseball. He was always one of the last ones signing autographs during spring training. Enjoy your retirement, Jason.