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View Full Version : Joey Votto= A Game Changer



Phhhl
09-26-2010, 03:24 AM
Joey is an Albert Pujols type of player. People like to put the Cardinals into historical perspective to the exclusion of franchises like the Reds. But that franchise really would not have been relavent the last 20 years without the freak of nature otherwise known as Albert Pujols. In Joey Votto, now we have a guy like that.

LaRussa would be nothing without Albert. In fact, the squire may have gone down in a heap of buckshot with the rest of the cheaters who sullied this game had he not carnied himself away from the prime offenders of the steroid "era" in the media. The same guy that protected the most offensive steroid users during the darkest days of this game and somehow prevailed, Tony LaRussa comes across as some kind of drunken bus stop massiah with his performance in 2010. While I truly hope that people start to view LaRussa Nostra's rap sheet for the crime riddled record that it truly represents, I hold out even more hope that Joey Votto is viewed alongside Albert Pujols as one of the greatest pure hitters of his time. The run that the 2010 Cincinnati Reds have enjoyed is an exclusive testament to the greatness of this individual player. There is talent up and down the roster of the 2010 Reds, but Votto is the mortar that holds all these bricks together. I find myself hanging on his every word when he speaks, and I stop to watch him hit with an even a greater sense of importance.

I would not dismiss the possibility of the impossible happening because of this young man. October could be very exciting.

The Operator
09-26-2010, 03:51 AM
I can tell you have also been reading at Birds On The Bat. :thumbup:

Brutus
09-26-2010, 03:53 AM
Thing about Votto is that I see a lot of room for improvement. He's still susceptible to swinging at bad pitches early in the count. And strikes out a relative bunch for someone that has been carrying a high average consistently.

I really think he will continue to improve. If he stays healthy, I think he'll have better seasons ahead.

The Operator
09-26-2010, 03:57 AM
I really think he will continue to improve. If he stays healthy, I think he'll have better seasons ahead.

That's the scary part. Who knows what this guy can do, health providing.

Ghosts of 1990
09-26-2010, 10:51 AM
My friend who is just a baseball fan; not a Reds fan said something to me at the beginning of the summer that really stuck.

He said that over the next decade, Joey Votto is going to be Pujols-like, or even better. His reasoning was simple: 1) Joey is younger than Pujols and 2) Votto plays in a better hitters park than Albert ever did.

I think that there is a chance Votto could have a decade that Pujols did as long as he stays healthy.

BoydsOfSummer
09-26-2010, 04:30 PM
Let's not get carried away with the Pujols comparisons. Pujols is a HOF if he quit today at age thirty. Joey is only three years younger than him.

I think they'll be very comparable for the next 3-4 seasons though as Joey is peaking and Pujols (maybe) begins starts a bit of a decline around 33. Who knows with that guy though, he's one of those special kind. Joey is having a Pujols-like season though. He's actually been better, in fact, if you look at runs created above average. He's ten runs better I believe.

RedsManRick
09-26-2010, 04:33 PM
Call me Mr. Buzzkill, but Votto is no Pujols. Don't get me wrong. This is Votto's 2nd elite season and he's entering his prime. He's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball right now and this season is Pujolsesque.

But Pujols was doing what Votto's doing now when he was 22. Votto's current OPS would be Pujol's 7th best. He's gone over 1.100 4 times. If Votto repeats this season every year for the next 8 years, he'll have had a worse career than Pujols. What makes Pujols, Pujols, an inner circle HOFer, is that he's done this every single year for a decade. If Votto does this for 2 or 3 more years, the Pujols comps start to make sense.

Until then, he's having an awesome season. An MVP season. But lots and lots of guys have great peaks which last 2-3 years. We can not and should not take longevity for granted.

westofyou
09-26-2010, 09:36 PM
I believe that it's possible to praise the competition and your own team as well, I also believe that LaRussa was great manager before Albert and Albert is a once a generation player. The Cardinals of the 40's would have been nothing without Musial, BUT he was there, you can discount facts like a good team with the existence of a superstar, so I try and give due to the Cardinals for accomplishing what they have this past decade.

I also believe Votto is having one of the best seasons in Reds history.

To put Votto's season in perspective I'll use the benchmark of a .400 ob% and a .600 slg%

If you make the baseline 400 PA's in a season to get that benchmark then you have 247 players in the history of the game to achieve it, 4 were Reds, Robinson 2 times in 61 & 62, Klu in 54 and Daniels in 1987. If you then look at the total number of players who have had 400 PA's in a season then you get something (data on my other machine) 16,300 players.

Thus that 247 who got there represents ONLY 0.0147 of the season's in which a guy has 400 pa's, that's a blip, an outlier.

And Votto is about to get there, congrats to him, he's a freaking stud.

But Albert has done it 7 times and he has as much chase for the 8th time as Votto does for his 1st time. That's outstanding.

Here's the list of guys who have done it more than once.



1 Babe Ruth 13
2 Ted Williams 12
3 Barry Bonds 10
T4 Jimmie Foxx 9
T4 Lou Gehrig 9
T6 Albert Pujols 7
T6 Rogers Hornsby 7
T8 Hank Greenberg 6
T8 Stan Musial 6
T8 Manny Ramirez 6
T8 Frank Thomas 6
T12 Larry Walker 5
T12 Mickey Mantle 5
T14 Chuck Klein 4
T14 Joe DiMaggio 4
T14 Alex Rodriguez 4
T14 Mark McGwire 4
T14 Todd Helton 4
T19 Harry Heilmann 3
T19 Willie Mays 3
T19 Chipper Jones 3
T19 Eddie Mathews 3
T19 Jim Thome 3
T19 Gary Sheffield 3
T19 Johnny Mize 3
T19 Duke Snider 3
T19 Hank Aaron 3
T19 Albert Belle 3
T19 Frank Robinson 3
T19 Al Simmons 3
T19 Ralph Kiner 3
T32 Sammy Sosa 2
T32 Mel Ott 2
T32 Willie McCovey 2
T32 Sam Thompson 2
T32 Tris Speaker 2
T32 Hack Wilson 2
T32 Babe Herman 2
T32 Lance Berkman 2
T32 Ed Delahanty 2
T32 Ken Griffey Jr. 2
T32 Mike Piazza 2
T32 Ellis Burks 2
T32 Jeff Bagwell 2
T32 Lefty O'Doul 2
T32 Brian Giles 2
T32 David Ortiz 2
T32 Ken Williams 2
T32 Jason Giambi 2

Phhhl
09-26-2010, 10:53 PM
The intention of my post was not to reduce Pujols in any way. For a decade we have watched that guy anhialate the league and basically carry the Cardinals to several championships. We wondered what it would be like to have a guy like that in the middle of our lineup. Well, now we kind of know. Joey has a long way to go to rack up the type of career credentials of Pujols, I get that. But, his 2010 season is the type of performance that makes a World Championship seem possible. Votto looks to be the same type of once in a franchise type player that has the potential to re-calibrate a franchise. Very much like what Albert has done for the Cardinals, without breaking it down microscopically as to who is better historically between the two players.

camisadelgolf
09-30-2010, 10:02 AM
To iterate what woy said, Votto is arguably having the best season by a Reds first baseman ever. We're talking about an organization that has had Frank Robinson, Ted Kluszewski, Tony Perez, and many more at the position. This is easily one of the best seasons by a Red in all of history. Soak it up while you can, Reds fans. If anyone can repeat this success, it's Votto--but it's far from a given.

RedsBaron
09-30-2010, 12:14 PM
Albert Pujols is probably the greatest first baseman in history. Until he came along there was no one who seriously challenged Lou Gehrig for that distinction.
Ordinarily comparing the seasonal averages of a player in mid-career with another player whose career is over is misleading, because the player in mid-career has not yet gone through the typical decline phase portion of his career, so his percentage stats, such as batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage, look better than they will be by the end of his career, but this is not a big issue when comparing someone to Gehrig, since Gehrig didn't have much of a decline phase himself. Lou went from being a tremendous player in 1937 to someone who couldn't play at all in 1939.
Gehrig's career BA, OBP, SLG, HRs and RBI are .340 .447 .632 493 1995.
Gehrig's average per 162 games is .340 .447 .632 37 149.
Pujols's career BA, OBP, SLG, HRs and RBI are .332 .426 .625 408 1229.
Pujols's average per 162 games is .332 .426 .625 43 128.

The comparison of those stats do seem to give Gehrig a slight edge, but when the stats are neutralized for ballpark effects and average runs per team, Gehrig's advantage largely disappears.
Gehrig's neutralized 162 game stats are .323 .428 .599 37 134.
Pujols's neutralized 162 game stats are .327 .421 .616 42 125.

If, as I do, you believe the level of play is somewhat better than it was 80 years ago, there is an excellent argument that Pujols is better than Gehrig was. I love Joey Votto but he isn't in that class yet.

mth123
09-30-2010, 07:05 PM
Albert Pujols is probably the greatest first baseman in history. Until he came along there was no one who seriously challenged Lou Gehrig for that distinction.
Ordinarily comparing the seasonal averages of a player in mid-career with another player whose career is over is misleading, because the player in mid-career has not yet gone through the typical decline phase portion of his career, so his percentage stats, such as batting average, on base percentage and slugging percentage, look better than they will be by the end of his career, but this is not a big issue when comparing someone to Gehrig, since Gehrig didn't have much of a decline phase himself. Lou went from being a tremendous player in 1937 to someone who couldn't play at all in 1939.
Gehrig's career BA, OBP, SLG, HRs and RBI are .340 .447 .632 493 1995.
Gehrig's average per 162 games is .340 .447 .632 37 149.
Pujols's career BA, OBP, SLG, HRs and RBI are .332 .426 .625 408 1229.
Pujols's average per 162 games is .332 .426 .625 43 128.

The comparison of those stats do seem to give Gehrig a slight edge, but when the stats are neutralized for ballpark effects and average runs per team, Gehrig's advantage largely disappears.
Gehrig's neutralized 162 game stats are .323 .428 .599 37 134.
Pujols's neutralized 162 game stats are .327 .421 .616 42 125.

If, as I do, you believe the level of play is somewhat better than it was 80 years ago, there is an excellent argument that Pujols is better than Gehrig was. I love Joey Votto but he isn't in that class yet.

Agreed. Love Votto, but he'd need two more years like the one he's having just to be mentioned in the same breath with Ted Kluszewski. Any Pujols or Gehrig comparisons are a long way off IMO.

RedsBaron
10-01-2010, 07:55 AM
Agreed. Love Votto, but he'd need two more years like the one he's having just to be mentioned in the same breath with Ted Kluszewski. Any Pujols or Gehrig comparisons are a long way off IMO.
Gehrig had an amazing run between 1926 and 1937 (although his most courageous season may have been in 1938, when he hit .295 with 29 HR even though he was almost certainly already battling symptoms of the disease which would kill him and to which he gave his name).
Since then several other first basemen have had brief runs of greatness which would have justified someone in speculating "boy if he keeps playing at this level he may be the greatest ever first baseman." Jimmie Foxx in 1932-33 and 1938, Frank Thomas in the early 1990s, Jeff Bagwell in 1994, all had peak seasons which, if extended for a dozen years, might have been enough to give them a good argument to displace Gehrig as the greatest ever first baseman , but no one had been able to sustain greatness at that level....until Pujols.
Joey Votto needs to repeat his 2010 season for about another ten years to enter the conversation.