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View Full Version : The Official Dusty Baker Contract Extension Thread



flyer85
09-30-2010, 11:54 AM
per Hal McCoy

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2010/09/30/baker_will_sign_a_new_reds_con.html?cxntnid=dlh-093010

_Sir_Charles_
09-30-2010, 11:56 AM
Wow. I didn't think there was a chance of them doing this prior to the off season.

Good move though IMO. Despite all the Dusty-bashing that goes on here (and elsewhere), I think he's done a very nice job in his tenure.

Heath
09-30-2010, 11:59 AM
I am going to sticky this "rumor" based on the knowings of Hal McCoy.

RedsManRick
09-30-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm slowly coming around to the idea that the on-field part of the manager's influence is smaller than I've given it credit for in the past. Baker is and will continue to be a poor tactician, but you can't argue that guys love to play for him, that he's handled our young players well, and that he's gotten good performances from the team.

He's always going to drive me nuts with silly lineups, 1-run strategies, odd bullpen management, references to how the game was played in his day, and botched double switches, but I think I might be able to live with the guy. That's not easy for me to say consider how vociferously I reacted to his hiring. I guess winning will do weird things to you.

Chip R
09-30-2010, 12:20 PM
Nice scoop by Hal if true.

lollipopcurve
09-30-2010, 12:21 PM
Well deserved.

It's a performance-based business.

Joseph
09-30-2010, 12:23 PM
Not surprising. Good for Dusty, and probably good for the Reds too based on the current make up of the team.

redsmetz
09-30-2010, 12:29 PM
I'm slowly coming around to the idea that the on-field part of the manager's influence is smaller than I've given it credit for in the past. Baker is and will continue to be a poor tactician, but you can't argue that guys love to play for him, that he's handled our young players well, and that he's gotten good performances from the team.

He's always going to drive me nuts with silly lineups, 1-run strategies, odd bullpen management, references to how the game was played in his day and botched double switches, but I think I might be able to live with the guy. That's not easy for me to say consider how vociferously I reacted to his hiring. I guess winning will do weird things to you.

It's about what I expected and I think it will be a good move. I think the game draws significant intricacies that go beyond only the stats and it's why we have this back and forth here. Someone like me who at times seems dismissive of Sabermetrics can't dismiss that there is value in the tool. Equally, there remains some sort of unmeasurable something that seems to help some teams be successful.

I've liked Baker pretty much from the start, even with some of his constantly same remarks. E.g. Hank Aaron. It reminds me of the schtick that Gary Burbank, the WLW radio guy (for out-of-towners) who would yammer on about getting picked up by Elvis while hitch-hiking in his hometown of Memphis and meeting Ann Margaret, etc. His crew would go into their manta, "Boring...".

But I like what Dusty's done a lot and and elated that after all these years, we'll have some longevity in the manager's seat.

kaldaniels
09-30-2010, 12:41 PM
Is Hal guessing a little here?

bucksfan2
09-30-2010, 12:43 PM
It was well deserved and makes sense. You don't make the playoffs for the first time in 15 years and then go and find a new manager. Dusty is well compensated and I this playoff run has been fun for all the fans involved.

I hope it is only a 2 year contract. If the Reds continue to win I want Dusty at the helm during those years. However I just don't want to see an albatross of a contract that makes the Reds stagnant. Nothing is worse than seeing a team tank it but ownership sitting on its hands because the manager has a 3-4 year contract.

Bob Borkowski
09-30-2010, 12:54 PM
I am pleased and I agree that 2 years would be better than 3 or more.

The tip-off for me that the team and Dusty were close to an agreement came during a quick post-game interview Tuesday night. Dusty said how much he 'loves this team and loves Cincinnati'. In other words, 'I'm stayin'. :)

Red in Chicago
09-30-2010, 12:58 PM
this won't be popular, but ...sigh...

edabbs44
09-30-2010, 01:00 PM
Not in love with the guy but I have no issue with this. You gotta keep him at this point.

RichRed
09-30-2010, 01:05 PM
Not in love with the guy but I have no issue with this. You gotta keep him at this point.

Yeah, I mean how do you NOT keep a manager that helps lead the team to its first playoff berth in 15 years? I'm in favor of it, even though I was not happy when Dusty was hired.

kaldaniels
09-30-2010, 01:06 PM
this won't be popular, but ...sigh...

Maybe it won't be popular to you elite fans, but overall this will be very well received.

Roy Tucker
09-30-2010, 01:06 PM
Given the general trend of the team, I think this will work.

They could do a lot worse than Dusty. He is a good guy and sure has the hearts and minds of his players and all the oars rowing together. He is a little lucky in being here when the talent flow and maturity is finally happening but I'm not going to carp about it. He won, period.

Like RMR, as a tactician he drives me nuts but it sure gives us something to talk about in here. Which is always interesting.

Caveat Emperor
09-30-2010, 01:10 PM
Love him or hate him (and I fall closer to the former side), it's nice to see some stability in the dugout for a change. Turnover at the helm is one aspect of the lost decade that I'd love to see put in the rear-view mirror.

OnBaseMachine
09-30-2010, 01:10 PM
Dusty drives me nuts with some of his lineups and other tactics but he led the team to the playoffs this season and deserves a reward. I just hope it's a two year deal instead of three.

Ghosts of 1990
09-30-2010, 01:20 PM
I love Dusty Baker. He's the perfect manager and perfect man for these Cincinnati Reds. He's a good man, a leader of a group of good young guys in this game. Here's to seeing it through and three more years that trump your first three, King Dusty.

Wheelhouse
09-30-2010, 01:27 PM
Well, if Hal said it, it means Baker will definitely NOT be coming back to Cincinnati...

RANDY IN INDY
09-30-2010, 01:27 PM
Well deserved. I like the move.

cumberlandreds
09-30-2010, 01:30 PM
A big part of being a professional manager or coach is managing the personalties on the team. Dusty seems to do a great job at this. He never throws anyone under the bus publicly or shows anyone up on the field. I think the players really respect that. All managers do things about managing the game that make you scratch you head sometimes. Dusty is no exception. I do think he is the right person for the makeup of this team. If the Reds brought in someone else next season it could screw up things big time. Another good move by Castellini and Jockety.

I(heart)Freel
09-30-2010, 01:38 PM
This also essentially means that OCab and Ramon's options are being picked up for 2011.

kbrake
09-30-2010, 01:40 PM
I like the move and I'm fine if its for 3 or 4 years. The guy deserves a major reward and some security. I was as against this move as anyone else but Dusty has been great this year. He stuck with Bruce, Stubbs and Masset when at some point or another people here were tired of them. Thank you Dusty its been one hell of a season.

Ghosts of 1990
09-30-2010, 01:47 PM
Got a call the other day from a guy from Chicago who noticed praise on my podcast about dusty baker. He was irate about it, said that Dusty is terrible and had nothing to do with it that it was the players who were to thank for the success, and that they're winning in spite of Dusty. I disagree. I think Baker compliments these guys really well. I think they play hard for him 99% of the time. He deserves the chance to see this through

SunDeck
09-30-2010, 01:55 PM
Managers get too much credit when teams win and too much blame when they lose.

Dusty is fortunate to have come to a Reds team that has been building quality for the last five years or so, and he is lucky to be working in a place that has ownership and a front office speaking the same language and agreeing on the direction to take the club. The Reds are a well run organization at the moment and he should be rewarded for contributing to that. If this doesn't last, if for some reason the Reds revert back to a previous form, no matter the reason Dusty will be the first to take the fall.

_Sir_Charles_
09-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Love him or hate him (and I fall closer to the former side), it's nice to see some stability in the dugout for a change. Turnover at the helm is one aspect of the lost decade that I'd love to see put in the rear-view mirror.

This. Very much this. Stability is underrated.

Tom Servo
09-30-2010, 03:00 PM
Whether it works out or not, he deserves it.

redsfan30
09-30-2010, 03:06 PM
Good move, and the right move.

There would be absolutely no justification for not bringing him back after leading this team to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years.

oneupper
09-30-2010, 03:18 PM
Maybe Dusty is Green Eggs and Ham and I haven't really tried him yet.

But I still don't like him (Sam I am).

Use this money to lock up Votto and Bruce. No manager is worth $4 mil a season.

Brutus
09-30-2010, 03:18 PM
Absolutely the right move.

I'm not crazy about Dusty the tactician, but Dusty the leader of people has completely won me over. It's clear he has the respect and effort of his clubhouse, and that is not an overrated thing in sports. An environment conducive to winning is one that will help achieve the best results.

westofyou
09-30-2010, 03:20 PM
Managers get too much credit when teams win and too much blame when they lose.

Dusty is fortunate to have come to a Reds team that has been building quality for the last five years or so, and he is lucky to be working in a place that has ownership and a front office speaking the same language and agreeing on the direction to take the club. The Reds are a well run organization at the moment and he should be rewarded for contributing to that. If this doesn't last, if for some reason the Reds revert back to a previous form, no matter the reason Dusty will be the first to take the fall.

Chris Jaffe just wrote a book about managers (It's AWESOME) he said this about Dusty, He gets too much credit for SF and he gets too much blame for Chicago, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, whatever that truth is his legacy will be redefined by his stint as the Reds manager. One caveat is that Dusty is a "players" manager and that means he connects with them. Jaffe asked if this would still hold true as Dusty aged and the gap between his age and his players, which is damn good question.

BuckeyeRedleg
09-30-2010, 03:26 PM
I'm slowly coming around to the idea that the on-field part of the manager's influence is smaller than I've given it credit for in the past. Baker is and will continue to be a poor tactician, but you can't argue that guys love to play for him, that he's handled our young players well, and that he's gotten good performances from the team.

He's always going to drive me nuts with silly lineups, 1-run strategies, odd bullpen management, references to how the game was played in his day, and botched double switches, but I think I might be able to live with the guy. That's not easy for me to say consider how vociferously I reacted to his hiring. I guess winning will do weird things to you.

This is my view on this as well.

kaldaniels
09-30-2010, 04:02 PM
Well written Rick.

wheels
09-30-2010, 04:14 PM
JoJo's gonna be p.o.ed when he reads some of the comments here.:D

reds1869
09-30-2010, 04:34 PM
The way his players feel about Dusty is all I need to know about the clubhouse side of things. His tactical moves leave a lot to be desired, but his man-management is superb. As so many have noted Dusty is the perfect fit for this group of players and I'll be thrilled to keep him in Cincinnati. He's earned a new contract and I hope he earns another, because it will mean he has been a winner.

RichRed
09-30-2010, 05:03 PM
One caveat is that Dusty is a "players" manager and that means he connects with them. Jaffe asked if this would still hold true as Dusty aged and the gap between his age and his players, which is damn good question.

It is a good question, but Dusty's already 61 and at least 20 years older than even the oldest active players. I'm inclined to think that if he's a player's manager now, he'll be one for however long he manages.

GAC
09-30-2010, 05:25 PM
So what's the big deal (difference) between whether it's 2 yrs or 3 yrs? Manager's want some sort of security just as much as the players do, so it don't bother me none if it's a 3 yr deal.

I lovessss me some Dusty


Now where did I lay my scotch down at?

Chip R
09-30-2010, 06:00 PM
So what's the big deal (difference) between whether it's 2 yrs or 3 yrs? Manager's want some sort of security just as much as the players do, so it don't bother me none if it's a 3 yr deal.

I lovessss me some Dusty


Now where did I lay my scotch down at?

So another 3 years of you being an Indians fan? ;)

Benihana
09-30-2010, 06:11 PM
It's a 2 year deal, Dusty told Fay.

www.mlbtraderumors.com

dabvu2498
09-30-2010, 06:22 PM
It is a good question, but Dusty's already 61 and at least 20 years older than even the oldest active players. I'm inclined to think that if he's a player's manager now, he'll be one for however long he manages.

Dusty also has fairly young kids of his own, which would make me tend to think he'll stay youthful for his age.

Red in Chicago
09-30-2010, 06:31 PM
Maybe it won't be popular to you elite fans, but overall this will be very well received.

Are you trying to insult me with the "elite fan" reference? If so, I don't get it.

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of Baker. I watched his management style in Chicago for four years, and have endured three more in Cincy. Has he done a good job this year? Sure. The prior two years, meh. Does he deserve an extension? Sure, give him one year, take it or leave it.

If the players like him, so be it, they are the ones who have to play for him. I'm simply saying that I am not a fan of his management style and would prefer not to offer him a multi year deal.

kaldaniels
09-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Are you trying to insult me with the "elite fan" reference? If so, I don't get it.

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of Baker. I watched his management style in Chicago for four years, and have endured three more in Cincy. Has he done a good job this year? Sure. The prior two years, meh. Does he deserve an extension? Sure, give him one year, take it or leave it.

If the players like him, so be it, they are the ones who have to play for him. I'm simply saying that I am not a fan of his management style and would prefer not to offer him a multi year deal.

Did I send a zinger your way? Sure. Now let me explain why. You said the move would not be popular...to which I ask with whom?

paintmered
09-30-2010, 06:57 PM
I love this for no other reason than it means Tony LaRussa won't be managing the Reds next season. That, and he's earned it. A two-year deal is ideal for all parties.

Unassisted
09-30-2010, 07:03 PM
He met Castellini's public goal of making the losing stop. Unless the bar is so high that the only way to clear it is to win the World Series, Dusty deserves to be renewed.

cincrazy
09-30-2010, 07:04 PM
Are you trying to insult me with the "elite fan" reference? If so, I don't get it.

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of Baker. I watched his management style in Chicago for four years, and have endured three more in Cincy. Has he done a good job this year? Sure. The prior two years, meh. Does he deserve an extension? Sure, give him one year, take it or leave it.

If the players like him, so be it, they are the ones who have to play for him. I'm simply saying that I am not a fan of his management style and would prefer not to offer him a multi year deal.

Well, Dusty certainly has his weaknesses. But, so does LaRussa, as we've seen this year.

Dusty gets blamed too much for what happened in Chicago. Hell, Dusty had more success in Chicago than any Cubs manager in who knows how long. Did he probably play a part in things disintegrating? Yes, probably. But IMO, that team was heading south regardless of who was managing.

OnBaseMachine
09-30-2010, 08:05 PM
I love this for no other reason than it means Tony LaRussa won't be managing the Reds next season. That, and he's earned it. A two-year deal is ideal for all parties.

Agreed.

Slyder
09-30-2010, 08:12 PM
It's a 2 year deal, Dusty told Fay.

www.mlbtraderumors.com

Time to order some more duct tape to keep me from getting in trouble anytime Dusty drives me nuts. Although I must admit I have enjoyed this season.

TheNext44
09-30-2010, 08:42 PM
I'm slowly coming around to the idea that the on-field part of the manager's influence is smaller than I've given it credit for in the past.

Dusty's tenure is perfect evidence of this. It's not like suddenly became a better manager this year from the last two years.

Heath
09-30-2010, 08:54 PM
I love this for no other reason than it means Tony LaRussa won't be managing the Reds next season. That, and he's earned it. A two-year deal is ideal for all parties.

This.

Two years may not allow Dusty to slide in 2011.

TheNext44
09-30-2010, 09:23 PM
However you feel about the choice, you have to like the way these negotiations have gone, when compared to past Reds managerial decisions.

From Lou being forced out, to the Perez 44 day affair, to Davey Johnson not asked back because he didn't marry his girlfriend, to McKeon getting an insuling offer, to the Oester/Boone fiasco, the Reds have a long and embarrassing managerial history.

It's nice to see some professionalism in this area.

edabbs44
09-30-2010, 10:13 PM
Votto was just on MLB talking about this, he sounded like he was genuinely happy that Baker was rumored to be back, saying that he did a great job this year.

On a related note, Casey sounded a lot like the Hulkster in the interview. A lot of "dudes" and "brothers" being dropped.

reds44
09-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Votto was just on MLB talking about this, he sounded like he was genuinely happy that Baker was rumored to be back, saying that he did a great job this year.

On a related note, Casey sounded a lot like the Hulkster in the interview. A lot of "dudes" and "brothers" being dropped.
That was painful to listen to. I enjoyed the Votto part because he sounded as happy as I've ever heard him, but Casey sounded like a 12 year old girl talking to Justin Bieber.

Matt700wlw
09-30-2010, 10:47 PM
Dusty desreves an extention. In the other Dusty extention thread I was a fan of 2 years....1 was a bit of an insult, and 3 didn't seem necessary....

2 is good.

The core of this team is in place.

guttle11
09-30-2010, 10:51 PM
I don't care if a squirrel managed the team as long as:

A. The manager's salary has no bearing on the player's salary pool

B. The team wins

C. The squirrel is really cute

For human managers only the first two apply.

Matt700wlw
09-30-2010, 10:56 PM
That was painful to listen to. I enjoyed the Votto part because he sounded as happy as I've ever heard him, but Casey sounded like a 12 year old girl talking to Justin Bieber.

Isn't Justin Beiber a 12 year old girl?

I'm mean :D

IslandRed
09-30-2010, 11:12 PM
He gets too much credit for SF and he gets too much blame for Chicago, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, whatever that truth is his legacy will be redefined by his stint as the Reds manager.

Yep.

Dusty was the Cubs manager in that brief star-crossed window of time when people actually paid attention to the Cubs, and he was also unabashedly old-school at the height of the post-Moneyball Great Sabermetric War. So yeah, for many, he was the poster boy for everything wrong with the old way of managing baseball teams.

Like most every other manager, he has a skill set and on some teams it works and some teams it wouldn't.

VR
09-30-2010, 11:33 PM
I don't care if a squirrel managed the team as long as:

A. The manager's salary has no bearing on the player's salary pool

B. The team wins

C. The squirrel is really cute

For human managers only the first two apply.

I bet the team would be scrappy.

OnBaseMachine
09-30-2010, 11:36 PM
That was painful to listen to. I enjoyed the Votto part because he sounded as happy as I've ever heard him, but Casey sounded like a 12 year old girl talking to Justin Bieber.

I thought it was awesome. Sean Casey LOVES the Reds. He is constantly talking about the Reds and I absolutely love it.

Sea Ray
09-30-2010, 11:46 PM
Yes, this is not surprising now that the Dodgers job is settled.

I really don't have any big problems with him. He has not had the problems we all feared when he was hired; that being that he'd burn out the arms of our young starting pitching and that he'd play veterans at the expense of youngsters.

Ron Madden
10-01-2010, 02:57 AM
I've never been a big Dusty Baker fan but what ever will be will be.

I'll live with it and root for him to succeed for as long as he manages my favorite team.

remdog
10-01-2010, 03:39 AM
From a PR standpoint the Reds could not have not rehired Dusty. The average fan wouldn't have understood it and that would have taken any 'wind out of the sails' that the Reds expect in terms of better attendance next year, regardless how the team plays in '11.

Now that the Reds have captured the division title they will have a target on their back. Next year will be different---teams in the division will gear up to beat them. Will they feel the pressure to repeat? Houston has improved over the last half and the Cards will make moves this off-season to take back the banner. Is Dusty the right manager in that mode? My opinion: in the clubhouse, maybe. On the field, no.

I didn't like the hiring of Dusty three years ago. I still don't like it. IMO, the team made him, not the other way around. Dusty was on his way out before this team matured talent wise---and, before you ask, I don't give him much credit for that. From a PR standpoint I would have preferred a one year contract with a team option for a second year. That way, if this team falls on its' face next year, you can send him where he really belongs---the Sacramento Rivercats.

Rem

RANDY IN INDY
10-01-2010, 08:21 AM
Rem, I really believe that more times than not, the team makes "any" manager, and not the other way around. You can be the greatest baseball mind in the world, but if you don't have a group of talented players, you won't win the majority of the time. Sparky Anderson was very fortunate to walk into a wonderful situation in Cincinnati in 1970. Great groups of players make great managers.

membengal
10-01-2010, 08:27 AM
Thrilled about this. Dusty has earned it. The team clearly likes him.

And, this has to be said, people assume that managers can be set in their ways, but looking at how Dusty has handled the young pitchers on his staffs since he has been here, I have seen an effort to handle them differently than he did the Cubs kids. And a willingness to examine one's assumptions and change is a pretty valuable quality in manager, from my viewpoint.

bucksfan2
10-01-2010, 08:32 AM
So what's the big deal (difference) between whether it's 2 yrs or 3 yrs? Manager's want some sort of security just as much as the players do, so it don't bother me none if it's a 3 yr deal.

I lovessss me some Dusty


Now where did I lay my scotch down at?

I prefer the two year deal because it is a multi year deal, but it also isn't an albatross. Dusty and the Reds have achieved a level of success and should be building upon that success. The last thing I want to see is a huge regression next season with Dusty inked for another 2 years afterwards.

I wouldn't mind a revolving 2 year contract. Dusty meets certain goals and another year is added onto the end of his contract at a specified rate. I just want to make sure that he is hungry each and every season. A long contract could lead to some complacency.

Heath
10-01-2010, 08:33 AM
I thought it was awesome. Sean Casey LOVES the Reds. He is constantly talking about the Reds and I absolutely love it.

Dude SELLS it.

In a couple of years, could you see Sean Casey managing a big league team? Or any team? He could coach my little girls softball team and I'd run through the walls to play for him.

redsmetz
10-01-2010, 08:38 AM
Rem, I really believe that more times than not, the team makes "any" manager, and not the other way around. You can be the greatest baseball mind in the world, but if you don't have a group of talented players, you won't win the majority of the time. Sparky Anderson was very fortunate to walk into a wonderful situation in Cincinnati in 1970. Great groups of players make great managers.

In Sparky's own words:

"I don't believe a manager ever won a pennant. Casey Stengel won all those pennants with the Yankees. How many did he win with the Boston Braves and Mets? I've never seen a team win a pennant without players. I think the only thing the manager has to do is keep things within certain boundaries." Source: Los Angeles Times (August 8, 1974)

"If a team is in a positive frame of mind, it will have a good attitude. If it has a good attitude, it will make a commitment to playing the game right. If it plays the game right, it will win—unless, of course, it doesn't have enough talent to win, and no manager can make goose-liver pate out of goose feathers, so why worry?" Source: Wikiquote (website)

It continues to surprise me that there are folks who seem unable to give Baker any credit whatsoever, even if it's for creating a great atmosphere for these players to flourish in.

Regarding the length of this extension, I think it will be three years but without a great increase in pay with the 3rd year being the sweetener to keep the salary about where it is, but that's just my guess.

Chip R
10-01-2010, 09:01 AM
Dude SELLS it.

In a couple of years, could you see Sean Casey managing a big league team? Or any team? He could coach my little girls softball team and I'd run through the walls to play for him.

Nope. He's too nice.

Wheelhouse
10-01-2010, 09:23 AM
From a PR standpoint the Reds could not have not rehired Dusty. The average fan wouldn't have understood it and that would have taken any 'wind out of the sails' that the Reds expect in terms of better attendance next year, regardless how the team plays in '11.

Now that the Reds have captured the division title they will have a target on their back. Next year will be different---teams in the division will gear up to beat them. Will they feel the pressure to repeat? Houston has improved over the last half and the Cards will make moves this off-season to take back the banner. Is Dusty the right manager in that mode? My opinion: in the clubhouse, maybe. On the field, no.

I didn't like the hiring of Dusty three years ago. I still don't like it. IMO, the team made him, not the other way around. Dusty was on his way out before this team matured talent wise---and, before you ask, I don't give him much credit for that. From a PR standpoint I would have preferred a one year contract with a team option for a second year. That way, if this team falls on its' face next year, you can send him where he really belongs---the Sacramento Rivercats.

Rem

I disagree on you point about having to sign Dusty from a PR standpoint. There are instances where a new manager would have been a PR plus. Joe Morgan, for instance. Joe Torre, whose lifetime record record is better than Dusty's, would have been well received by the average fan (though I expect on Redszone, there would be some griping), and, of course, if there were any way to coax Lou back, that would be a huge PR boost. In addition to that, if the Reds go 3 and out, it would be a lot easier PR-wise to replace him with anyone.

Redsfan320
10-01-2010, 09:41 AM
I watched the Votto interview this morning. Thought it was great... Votto was much more... loose... than I'd ever seen him.

320

RANDY IN INDY
10-01-2010, 09:55 AM
I disagree on you point about having to sign Dusty from a PR standpoint. There are instances where a new manager would have been a PR plus. Joe Morgan, for instance. Joe Torre, whose lifetime record record is better than Dusty's, would have been well received by the average fan (though I expect on Redszone, there would be some griping), and, of course, if there were any way to coax Lou back, that would be a huge PR boost. In addition to that, if the Reds go 3 and out, it would be a lot easier PR-wise to replace him with anyone.

Thing is, PR spills over into the considerations of managers and players "wanting to come" to Cincinnati. If a manager takes a team to the playoffs after such a long drought, and he is not brought back or rewarded, it sends a bad message to potential managers and players in the future. The organization has not exactly been great in the PR department over the last 15 years.

Hoosier Red
10-01-2010, 10:17 AM
I disagree on you point about having to sign Dusty from a PR standpoint. There are instances where a new manager would have been a PR plus. Joe Morgan, for instance. Joe Torre, whose lifetime record record is better than Dusty's, would have been well received by the average fan (though I expect on Redszone, there would be some griping), and, of course, if there were any way to coax Lou back, that would be a huge PR boost. In addition to that, if the Reds go 3 and out, it would be a lot easier PR-wise to replace him with anyone.

I'm not sure Reds fans would prefer Lou to Dusty right now. How many people really care about what he did in 1990?

In the last two stops Lou has increasingly looked like someone who would rather be retired.
And why would Joe Morgan or Joe Torre be better received than Dusty?

The fact of the matter is, if they didn't sign him, they were going to look cheap regardless of the details. Whether it was because they wanted him to take a pay cut, or because they wanted him to sign a one year extension(oh but with a team option yippee!) They'd have looked bad.

He should have been re-signed, no matter whether it was the team that made him or him making the team(I think it's a little bit of both) if you're going to fire managers for bad teams performing poorly, you have to reward managers for good teams performing well.

westofyou
10-01-2010, 10:46 AM
Joe Morgan former Red Sox manager? Because the other JM has said a million times that he is not interested.

redsfandan
10-01-2010, 11:06 AM
In Sparky's own words:

"I don't believe a manager ever won a pennant. Casey Stengel won all those pennants with the Yankees. How many did he win with the Boston Braves and Mets? I've never seen a team win a pennant without players. I think the only thing the manager has to do is keep things within certain boundaries." Source: Los Angeles Times (August 8, 1974)

"If a team is in a positive frame of mind, it will have a good attitude. If it has a good attitude, it will make a commitment to playing the game right. If it plays the game right, it will win—unless, of course, it doesn't have enough talent to win, and no manager can make goose-liver pate out of goose feathers, so why worry?" Source: Wikiquote (website)

It continues to surprise me that there are folks who seem unable to give Baker any credit whatsoever, even if it's for creating a great atmosphere for these players to flourish in.

Regarding the length of this extension, I think it will be three years but without a great increase in pay with the 3rd year being the sweetener to keep the salary about where it is, but that's just my guess.
Yes, Dusty deserves some credit but I just don't think he should get too much credit. It's all about the players and I bet Walt has helped restrain Dusty from using the young pitchers too much. Dusty has helped the most in the clubhouse and that's great considering we have such a young team. But, in a couple years the team might not be quite as young so his influence wouldn't be as valuable then. What will people look at then? His lineups? I'm ok with keeping Dusty around but I just wouldn't commit too much $/years to him.

redsmetz
10-01-2010, 11:25 AM
Yes, Dusty deserves some credit but I just don't think he should get too much credit. It's all about the players and I bet Walt has helped restrain Dusty from using the young pitchers too much. Dusty has helped the most in the clubhouse and that's great considering we have such a young team. But, in a couple years the team might not be quite as young so his influence wouldn't be as valuable then. What will people look at then? His lineups? I'm ok with keeping Dusty around but I just wouldn't commit too much $/years to him.

I'm not one who has subscribed to the "castle intrigue" that some folks do on RZ. My interpretation would be that Jockety & Baker have found a considerable chemistry that has made for a very good partnership. I never bought into the notion that Baker was just waiting to ruin our young arms or, for that matter, that he favored vets over youngsters etc. A number of us have noted that he has stuck with some of our kids in ways they never would have been before. I've never agreed with the notion that Jocketty has kept Dusty from being Dusty.

I would suggest, too, that folks look at photos and clips of this team over the last month or so and look at the interaction between Baker and his players. I would suggest that there is, and it's a bit of an "unmanly" word, affection between them. These guys really like Baker and he's completely in their camp.

And I can't reiterate enough that this club has suffered from the revolving door of managers over most of the last 30 years (with a small number of exceptions). Stability there will help.

It's always a balance, do good players make the manager or does the manager use the tools he's given and leads them to success. Chicken before the egg or vice versa. It's a delicate balance.

lollipopcurve
10-01-2010, 11:27 AM
And I can't reiterate enough that this club has suffered from the revolving door of managers over most of the last 30 years (with a small number of exceptions). Stability there will help.

Not just managers -- ownership and front office too.

Roy Tucker
10-01-2010, 11:37 AM
I read this first person tribute by Chipper Jones to Bobby Cox and I would imagine the Reds say the same kinds of things about Dusty Baker...

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2010/10/01/first-person-cox-tribute-chipper-jones/

RFS62
10-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Dusty is very good at the most important thing a manager can do.

He gets the players to want to play hard. These guys play hard for him, and they never seem to quit.

I don't think his perceived tactical faux pas come close to outweighing his excellence in sports psychology.

He's got an interesting background as a player and a highly regarded hitting coach before he started managing. He speaks the players language very well. The players seem to trust him.

How much is all this worth? Pretty hard to say. Maybe it's a luxury, maybe not. I can say I'm very glad to have it, and very happy he got the extension.

redsfandan
10-01-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm not one who has subscribed to the "castle intrigue" that some folks do on RZ. My interpretation would be that Jockety & Baker have found a considerable chemistry that has made for a very good partnership. I never bought into the notion that Baker was just waiting to ruin our young arms or, for that matter, that he favored vets over youngsters etc. A number of us have noted that he has stuck with some of our kids in ways they never would have been before. I've never agreed with the notion that Jocketty has kept Dusty from being Dusty.

I would suggest, too, that folks look at photos and clips of this team over the last month or so and look at the interaction between Baker and his players. I would suggest that there is, and it's a bit of an "unmanly" word, affection between them. These guys really like Baker and he's completely in their camp.

And I can't reiterate enough that this club has suffered from the revolving door of managers over most of the last 30 years (with a small number of exceptions). Stability there will help.

It's always a balance, do good players make the manager or does the manager use the tools he's given and leads them to success. Chicken before the egg or vice versa. It's a delicate balance.
1) Chemistry between Dusty and Walt? Yeah, I'll agree with that.

2) Dusty was "waiting to ruin our young arms"? Don't agree. Never said that. And I think the bashing of Dusty for being an "arm killer" is overblown. But, I'd be surprised if anyone said Dusty was actually good with pitchers.

3) Chemistry/affection between Dusty and the players?: Noone said that wasn't the case.

4) Stability? Yes, stability is important and something the Reds have lacked for the last 30 years. Doesn't mean you need to give the guy a contract for life though.

Chip R
10-01-2010, 12:06 PM
4) Stability? Yes, stability is important and something the Reds have lacked for the last 30 years. Doesn't mean you need to give the guy a contract for life though.

No one said they wanted to give him a contract for life.

Tony Cloninger
10-01-2010, 12:07 PM
Yes, Dusty deserves some credit but I just don't think he should get too much credit. It's all about the players and I bet Walt has helped restrain Dusty from using the young pitchers too much. Dusty has helped the most in the clubhouse and that's great considering we have such a young team. But, in a couple years the team might not be quite as young so his influence wouldn't be as valuable then. What will people look at then? His lineups? I'm ok with keeping Dusty around but I just wouldn't commit too much $/years to him.

If Walt was actually doing that....then he would have made suggestions about other things that were obviously needed to be changed. This makes him sound like a puppet. Like someone said earlier....his in-game managing and lineups and reasoning drives you nuts....but Sparky was and or could be the same way.

WVRedsFan
10-01-2010, 12:13 PM
You win, you get rewards. Dusty's team won. He's done it before. Maybe he gets too much credit, but so do other managers who win. At least he's been there unlike Boone, Miley, Narron, and a host of others. I'm no big dusty fan, but he won. He gets the spoils of victory. And rightly so.

redsfandan
10-01-2010, 12:13 PM
No one said they wanted to give him a contract for life.
True, I'll give ya that. But it does sound to me at least that some wouldn't have any problem with an extension no matter how long/expensive it was. And that's my only concern. The price/length.

If Walt was actually doing that....then he would have made suggestions about other things that were obviously needed to be changed. This makes him sound like a puppet. Like someone said earlier....his in-game managing and lineups and reasoning drives you nuts....but Sparky was and or could be the same way.
It hardly makes him a puppet if Walt suggests to Dusty to not work the young pitchers too much. Now, when the Cubs made Dusty keep throwing young pitchers out there ...

bucksfan2
10-01-2010, 12:24 PM
If Walt was actually doing that....then he would have made suggestions about other things that were obviously needed to be changed. This makes him sound like a puppet. Like someone said earlier....his in-game managing and lineups and reasoning drives you nuts....but Sparky was and or could be the same way.

I have never really had much of an issue with Dusty's in game managerial decisions. The problem I have with suggestions that he is a bad tactician is the limited amount of information us fans have. Do we know if a pitcher is fatigued or a batter isn't feeling 100%? We don't know the scope if injuries or the day to day physical well being of each individual player.

westofyou
10-01-2010, 12:27 PM
Walt doesn't try to tell, suggest, or coerce Dusty on what to do, he and Dusty decide on an approach and Walt gets him the players to use in the agreed upon approach.

Chip R
10-01-2010, 01:26 PM
True, I'll give ya that. But it does sound to me at least that some wouldn't have any problem with an extension no matter how long/expensive it was. And that's my only concern. The price/length.

It's a couple of years at probably around the same salary he was making before. I don't see the big problem here even if you think he's the worst manager in history which he isn't. WV said it best, you win, you get rewards. And if you lose you get fired. The players like him but he's no pushover. I've also seen a willingness to change this year. In the past the lineup was always CF bats 1st and SS or 2B bats 2nd. And that's how this year started. When it was evident Stubbs wasn't doing the job leading off, he put OCab there and it helped. When OCab slumped, he put Brandon in there and he did just fine. Then when Brandon slumped he played mix and match. His big red flags from Chicago were that he rode his starting pitchers (especially the young ones) too hard and he wouldn't play young players. I think that hasn't been a problem at all this season.

Is Dusty the perfect manager? Not at all but I'd rather have him right now than LaRussa and his power trips. I'd rather have him than Torre and his miasma. I'd rather have him than Piniella who's pilot light seems to have gone out.

redsfandan
10-01-2010, 06:55 PM
Walt doesn't try to tell, suggest, or coerce Dusty on what to do, he and Dusty decide on an approach and Walt gets him the players to use in the agreed upon approach.
6 of one, half dozen of another.

It's a couple of years at probably around the same salary he was making before. I don't see the big problem here even if you think he's the worst manager in history which he isn't. WV said it best, you win, you get rewards. And if you lose you get fired. The players like him but he's no pushover. I've also seen a willingness to change this year. In the past the lineup was always CF bats 1st and SS or 2B bats 2nd. And that's how this year started. When it was evident Stubbs wasn't doing the job leading off, he put OCab there and it helped. When OCab slumped, he put Brandon in there and he did just fine. Then when Brandon slumped he played mix and match. His big red flags from Chicago were that he rode his starting pitchers (especially the young ones) too hard and he wouldn't play young players. I think that hasn't been a problem at all this season.

Is Dusty the perfect manager? Not at all but I'd rather have him right now than LaRussa and his power trips. I'd rather have him than Torre and his miasma. I'd rather have him than Piniella who's pilot light seems to have gone out.
The only people that think he's a terrible manager are the same that say that he's an 'arm killer'. (Dusty took way too much blame for Wood, Prior, etc.) All I'm saying is that stability is important but that the Reds shouldn't go overboard. I've no problem with a couple years at the same salary.

OnBaseMachine
10-03-2010, 09:14 PM
From John Fay:

#Reds have a12:30 press conference tomorrow. Good chance will be to announce deal with Baker.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

HeatherC1212
10-04-2010, 11:45 AM
Tweets from today:

ESPN:

@espn Report: Cincinnati Reds, Dusty Baker complete contract extension - http://es.pn/cx4h5B

WLWT:

@wlwt AP: Reds, Dusty Baker Reach 2-Year Deal http://dlvr.it/6Stnl

bucksfan2
10-04-2010, 11:52 AM
Walt doesn't try to tell, suggest, or coerce Dusty on what to do, he and Dusty decide on an approach and Walt gets him the players to use in the agreed upon approach.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for the relationship between a GM and a manager. They dynamics as well as the approach that is agreed upon. A GM does a prefect job when he is able to sit back and just watch his team play.

RedsMan3203
10-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Per Ctrent/John Fay/Yahoo Sports.

Terms have not been disclosed as of yet...

Heath
10-04-2010, 12:00 PM
Presser at 12:30 on WLW.

OnBaseMachine
10-04-2010, 12:18 PM
MLB Network will carry the press conference:

#Reds press conference w/Dusty Baker set to air live on @MLBNetwork coming up at 12:30pm ET.

http://twitter.com/MLBNetwork

reds1869
10-04-2010, 12:41 PM
Well deserved. Long enough to give Dusty & Co. security but short enough that the organization can eat the money if things go downhill quickly. I love it and I'm sure the players will too.

redsmetz
10-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Well deserved. Long enough to give Dusty & Co. security but short enough that the organization can eat the money if things go downhill quickly. I love it and I'm sure the players will too.

I only found the live link a couple of minutes before it ended. What were the details?

reds1869
10-04-2010, 12:45 PM
I only found the live link a couple of minutes before it ended. What were the details?

2 years, no financials disclosed.

kbrake
10-04-2010, 12:46 PM
Good move all around. You earned it Dusty.

SirFelixCat
10-04-2010, 12:56 PM
Good move all around. You earned it Dusty.

:thumbup:

Unassisted
10-04-2010, 12:59 PM
Interesting that his record after 3 seasons is exactly .500. (243-243)

Not being critical of the renewal, because getting the record back to even represents a big turnaround.

BTW, at the presser Dusty mentioned (almost apologetically) how this team gets along better than the Reds clubs of the previous two seasons did.

Griffey012
10-04-2010, 01:01 PM
I am glad to see the deal get done. Dusty has deserved it, and I actually like the guy as a man and a manger (for the most part).

Ron Madden
10-04-2010, 01:06 PM
I believe Dusty has earned an extension, I'm glad it's a two year deal. :thumbup:

I can live with it. ;)

Chip R
10-04-2010, 01:29 PM
Interesting that his record after 3 seasons is exactly .500. (243-243)

Not being critical of the renewal, because getting the record back to even represents a big turnaround.

BTW, at the presser Dusty mentioned (almost apologetically) how this team gets along better than the Reds clubs of the previous two seasons did.


Winning hath charms.

OnBaseMachine
10-04-2010, 04:03 PM
From Ken Rosenthal:

Dusty Baker's 2-yr deal with #Reds will include raises each yr. His salary in '10 was $3.5 million. Remains among highest-paid mgrs. #MLB

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

VR
10-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Interesting that his record after 3 seasons is exactly .500. (243-243)

Not being critical of the renewal, because getting the record back to even represents a big turnaround.

BTW, at the presser Dusty mentioned (almost apologetically) how this team gets along better than the Reds clubs of the previous two seasons did.

If a small to mid market team (semantics, I know) is offered 3 yrs of a .500 record, including 1 Division Championship.....I think they'd be thrilled to death. I know I am, especially after where the team had to come from.

gm
10-04-2010, 10:00 PM
Winning hath charms.

Winning is the best deodorant -- John Madden

When Johnny B was hired 3 years ago I made the comment that he would take Cincy back to the post season, despite all of the losing that had led up to his hiring. He had success with the Giants and Cubs and for whatever reason he seems to have the knack to bring a team home to the post season

Now, for the bad news

The other thing I said back then is that once Dusty's teams reach the post season, they tend to underachieve, for whatever reason. I compared Baker to Denny Green, in this regard. Good enough to get a team into the playoffs, but not all the way to the top.

So now, I'm bracing myself for the reality collision. This year has been a nice ride, and I'd love to see the Reds defeat the Phils and two other teams and repeat '90. I'm just expecting them to lose, and I won't be too disappointed if they do. At some point in the future the Reds will need a different manager to take the final step and reclaim the trophy.

I can't tell you why I feel this way, just call it a hunch. Maybe Chapman will develop into an ace or playoff stopper and prove me wrong, but I have a feeling that when the time comes for the other shoe to drop, Johnny B will find a way to screw things up. It's almost as predictable as Lucy pulling the football away from an onrushing Charlie Brown, every autumn.

Wheelhouse
10-04-2010, 11:29 PM
Winning is the best deodorant -- John Madden

When Johnny B was hired 3 years ago I made the comment that he would take Cincy back to the post season, despite all of the losing that had led up to his hiring. He had success with the Giants and Cubs and for whatever reason he seems to have the knack to bring a team home to the post season

Now, for the bad news

The other thing I said back then is that once Dusty's teams reach the post season, they tend to underachieve, for whatever reason. I compared Baker to Denny Green, in this regard. Good enough to get a team into the playoffs, but not all the way to the top.

So now, I'm bracing myself for the reality collision. This year has been a nice ride, and I'd love to see the Reds defeat the Phils and two other teams and repeat '90. I'm just expecting them to lose, and I won't be too disappointed if they do. At some point in the future the Reds will need a different manager to take the final step and reclaim the trophy.

I can't tell you why I feel this way, just call it a hunch. Maybe Chapman will develop into an ace or playoff stopper and prove me wrong, but I have a feeling that when the time comes for the other shoe to drop, Johnny B will find a way to screw things up. It's almost as predictable as Lucy pulling the football away from an onrushing Charlie Brown, every autumn.

Ugh. Too true. Please let me drink the Kool Aid a little longer...

Slyder
10-04-2010, 11:56 PM
BTW like the new sig? I thought if it worked for Dusty I might as well try it on another coach(es) that drive me even battier!

WVPacman
10-05-2010, 12:39 AM
Great move by the Reds b/c Dusty is a great manager/leader and proven winner.Dusty deserved it and im glad he will still be here.

TheNext44
10-05-2010, 03:22 AM
Dusty deserves an extension just for the speech he gave today on Fountain Square. You could feel the love.

membengal
10-05-2010, 07:16 AM
Winning is the best deodorant -- John Madden

When Johnny B was hired 3 years ago I made the comment that he would take Cincy back to the post season, despite all of the losing that had led up to his hiring. He had success with the Giants and Cubs and for whatever reason he seems to have the knack to bring a team home to the post season

Now, for the bad news

The other thing I said back then is that once Dusty's teams reach the post season, they tend to underachieve, for whatever reason. I compared Baker to Denny Green, in this regard. Good enough to get a team into the playoffs, but not all the way to the top.

So now, I'm bracing myself for the reality collision. This year has been a nice ride, and I'd love to see the Reds defeat the Phils and two other teams and repeat '90. I'm just expecting them to lose, and I won't be too disappointed if they do. At some point in the future the Reds will need a different manager to take the final step and reclaim the trophy.

I can't tell you why I feel this way, just call it a hunch. Maybe Chapman will develop into an ace or playoff stopper and prove me wrong, but I have a feeling that when the time comes for the other shoe to drop, Johnny B will find a way to screw things up. It's almost as predictable as Lucy pulling the football away from an onrushing Charlie Brown, every autumn.

Given that the Reds are massive underdogs to the Phillies, what, exactly, would be underachieving in this series? Losing every game 10-0?

edabbs44
10-13-2010, 10:17 PM
Ummm....get them while they are hot? Classic.

http://www.dunhamssports.com/largeImage/index.jsp?LargeImageURL=http%3A//DUN.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMLB2-8868866dt.jpg

http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10815119&cp=1452348.1452719.1503788

The Operator
10-14-2010, 02:10 AM
Ummm....get them while they are hot? Classic.

http://www.dunhamssports.com/largeImage/index.jsp?LargeImageURL=http%3A//DUN.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pMLB2-8868866dt.jpg

http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=10815119&cp=1452348.1452719.1503788

Part of me likes those shirts. Then another, bigger part of me, wants nothing to do with copying something that fans of the Baby Bears in Chicago have done at any time.

Ron Madden
10-14-2010, 03:25 AM
Michael Vick wouldn't wear one of those shirts to a dog fight. ;)