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Biff Pocoroba
10-06-2010, 12:52 PM
Edinson can take a cosmic leap in the trade standings if he can find a way to best Halladay today.

By the way, I think Baker's pitching rotation is genius. Given that we are the underdog no matter who we throw out against Halladay, take a chance with the guy who offers the best shot at being dominant on any given day. Better that than to potentially waste Arroyo who is more likely to give you a strong performance but give up some runs. This way, you save him for game two against a more hittable opposing pitcher and after the starting lineup has hopefully gotten its sea legs. I see Arroyo as being like Pettite - the calm and crafty presence you need in game two, especially if you are coming off a loss.

Stray
10-06-2010, 12:59 PM
Agree with you about our playoff rotation, I think Dusty made the correct decision. We need to take one of the first two games, and that setup gives us the best chance. I also love that we are starting Cueto at home, and not game 2 in Philly, had we won homefield advantage, I would think we'd be seeing him pitch game 2.

As for Volquez or Hamilton....I liked the trade then, and I still like it now. There are a lot of question marks surrounding Hamilton and his ability to stay healthy. Also that he's one strike away from being out of baseball...at the time the move made sense. Obviously since then Hamilton has been on a tear while Volquez had surgery, but before his injury Volquez was among the best pitchers in the NL. I see no reason why he won't return to that form.

liminal
10-06-2010, 01:50 PM
I completely agree. This playoff rotation might be the best tangible thing I've seen from Dusty. While I'm a firm believer in the intangibles he brings (ie., his players always raving about him), some of the tangibles (lineups etc...) don't always make as much sense to me.

This playoff rotation though--solid. Very solid. I love it.

TheBigLebowski
10-06-2010, 01:51 PM
If Volquez wins tonight, I take him. If he gets shelled, gimme Hammy.

arkimadee
10-06-2010, 02:10 PM
i think the real test will come when the two face each other in the world series this year ;)

Caveman Techie
10-06-2010, 04:41 PM
I like how I heard someone describe it on the radio this morning. Putting Volquez first gives the Reds a punchers chance at a win in game one.

Vottomatic
10-06-2010, 06:07 PM
If Volquez wins tonight, I take him. If he gets shelled, gimme Hammy.

Way to go out on a limb.

BlastFurnace
10-06-2010, 06:17 PM
Hamilton

Felt that way then and I feel that way now

PeteRoseBelongs
10-06-2010, 07:03 PM
hmmm, like the thread. Hamilton is a great hitter. Saying that he isn't the healthiest player in the game early. Volquez just needs to take the off season and get stronger. I like Volquez over Hamilton. For that fact I like the future rotation of the Reds

Volquez, Wood, Cueto, Chapman and Bailey. You could do a lot worse than that.

Vottomatic
10-06-2010, 08:14 PM
Hamilton. :D

Krawhitham
10-06-2010, 09:00 PM
Hamilton

George Foster
10-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Edinson can take a cosmic leap in the trade standings if he can find a way to best Halladay today.

By the way, I think Baker's pitching rotation is genius.

Ha, Ha....I soiled myself reading this...

mckbearcat48
10-06-2010, 09:09 PM
Well, maybe it is genius...throw out Volquez to suck up Halladay's start.

Oxblood
10-06-2010, 10:56 PM
Hamilton

Biff Pocoroba
10-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Ha, Ha....I soiled myself reading this...

Okay, I deserved that. HOWEVER, a big part of my thinking here still holds - Arroyo gives us the best shot (on paper - I don't want you to soil yourself on Friday too) at winning game two. Best to hold him for that game rather than potentially waste a quality but not dominant start against Halladay.


PS: I wasn't predicting Volquez would beat Halladay - just remarking that this one game could cause him to leap in the "standings"

New York Red
10-07-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't think I'll ever be a Dusty Baker fan, but I actually like the way he set up the rotation for this series. He set it up so that our best chances to win are games 2, 3 and 5 - the games Halladay won't be pitching. And we get Halladay at GAB next time, where we already beat him once this year. I still like our chances.

757690
10-07-2010, 05:56 PM
People say that having Hamilton would have helped this team, and they didn't have Volquez most of the season, so they would rather have Hamilton.

One question:

How would have Hamilton helped the Reds this year? They won the division. That's basically the best they could do. How would having Hamilton instead of Volquez made any difference? Maybe they wouldn't have played the Phillies in the first round, but they are going to have to beat them some time to get to the World Series, so it's really a moot point.

I like having Volquez moving forward. Drug addiction is a serious matter, and it scares me to have a player on the team who is struggling with it everyday for the rest of his life. I prefer a player who uses drugs to make him a better player or heel faster. ;)

benchpress
10-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Hamilton....

Captain13
04-13-2011, 10:37 AM
Now that Hamilton is hurt AGAIN, does that change anyone's opinion of this trade? Is this still a terrible trade? I personally think we are two or three years away from knowing who got the better side of this deal.

bounty37h
04-13-2011, 10:45 AM
Now that Hamilton is hurt AGAIN, does that change anyone's opinion of this trade? Is this still a terrible trade? I personally think we are two or three years away from knowing who got the better side of this deal.

Kind of pointless arguement, but nope, not in my opinion, at least not yet. If ya want to bring an injury now in like that, then you must look a tlast year as well when Hamilton was earning MVP votes and Vol was out with his own injury and drug use suspension. Doesn't matter though, cant change it and only hope Vol can change peoples opinions with his own good play.

LeDoux
04-13-2011, 11:57 AM
In watching Hamilton's interview about his latest injury, I couldn't help thinking about the ending scene of A Clockwork Orange. Someone please let me know if Hamilton starts wearing eyelash extensions.

Here is the interview if interested:

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13736183&topic_id=8878736&c_id=tex

Oxblood
04-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Now that Hamilton is hurt AGAIN, does that change anyone's opinion of this trade? Is this still a terrible trade?

No
Yes

Hondo
04-14-2011, 03:07 PM
No
Yes

Ditto

CRedsLarkin11
04-14-2011, 03:23 PM
I have always been on the Hamilton side and I still am. He's injury prone and Volquez is inconsistent. They both have downsides but Hamilton is an MVP-type player when he is healthy and Volquez is a decent #3 or #2 (He hasn't been this year but that is how he should perform based on talent) Either way, I certainly hope that Volquez turns out to be great because he is a Red and Hamilton isn't.

Kingspoint
04-14-2011, 08:35 PM
Ditto

Un-Ditto.

Kingspoint
04-14-2011, 08:37 PM
If what's happened to start off this season (Chapman now with inflammation in his arm....thanks, Dusty :( ) doesn't convince you that you can never have enough quality pitching, then nothing will.

Pitching and Defense wins Championships.

Let me know the next time Texas, or Josh Hamilton, wins a Championship.

CRedsLarkin11
04-14-2011, 09:38 PM
Let me know the next time Texas, or Josh Hamilton, wins a Championship.

I know that they didn't actually win the World Series but they were one step away just a season ago. They won the American League pennant with Hamilton, the AL MVP, leading the way. Cliff Lee had a great hand in that as well but it's not like Volquez has led us to any championships. I just think that's a little over the top, in my opinion.

Kingspoint
04-14-2011, 10:23 PM
I know that they didn't actually win the World Series but they were one step away just a season ago. They won the American League pennant with Hamilton, the AL MVP, leading the way. Cliff Lee had a great hand in that as well but it's not like Volquez has led us to any championships. I just think that's a little over the top, in my opinion.

And, if we didn't face the juggernaut Phillies' Pitching staff, we would have lost to the same team in the playoffs that the Rangers lost to.

lonewolf371
04-15-2011, 08:58 AM
And, if we didn't face the juggernaut Phillies' Pitching staff, we would have lost to the same team in the playoffs that the Rangers lost to.
I'm not sure that's how you should look at it...

RedsFanInMD
04-15-2011, 11:00 AM
On the surface the trade still tilts in favor of Hamilton. However, the long-term concerns about his addictions will always be on the horizon. I hope Josh can stay clean during this layoff.

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 04:22 PM
The bottom-line is that we don't have anywhere near the payroll capabilities that the Rangers have, so we have to get quality pitching cheap where we can get it. And, if it means trading a potential MVP for a potential Cy Young, then you do that 100% of the time. It's not like we missed Josh Hamilton at all, because we didn't. We still led the league in every Offensive Category that exists last season, and are second so far this season, while we're still struggling to get quality pitching on any given night.

I'd trade Votto for Felix Hernandez in a heartbeat. And, I'd throw in any other player they want who's not on our 25-man roster.

Hondo
04-15-2011, 05:38 PM
The bottom-line is that we don't have anywhere near the payroll capabilities that the Rangers have, so we have to get quality pitching cheap where we can get it. And, if it means trading a potential MVP for a potential Cy Young, then you do that 100% of the time. It's not like we missed Josh Hamilton at all, because we didn't. We still led the league in every Offensive Category that exists last season, and are second so far this season, while we're still struggling to get quality pitching on any given night.

I'd trade Votto for Felix Hernandez in a heartbeat. And, I'd throw in any other player they want who's not on our 25-man roster.

Well I have read on MLB Trade Rumors and Pro Sports Daily that Felix Hernadez may be available this year for the "Right" package.

I say throw the Kitchen sink to snag this guy and Ownership put your money where your mouth is...

Didnt want Greinke, fine...

Hernandez becomes available??? You best Pounce!

bounty37h
04-15-2011, 05:54 PM
The bottom-line is that we don't have anywhere near the payroll capabilities that the Rangers have, so we have to get quality pitching cheap where we can get it. And, if it means trading a potential MVP for a potential Cy Young, then you do that 100% of the time. It's not like we missed Josh Hamilton at all, because we didn't. We still led the league in every Offensive Category that exists last season, and are second so far this season, while we're still struggling to get quality pitching on any given night.

I'd trade Votto for Felix Hernandez in a heartbeat. And, I'd throw in any other player they want who's not on our 25-man roster.

I get what your saying, but your kind of arguing against yourself too right? We traded a future MVP for a pitcher when we needed it and you just pointed out still strugglig to get any quality pitching. You point out we dont need hitting, yet we got shut out and barely hit anything the rest of the playoffs last year (showing we need more/better hitters?). Have to have balance, I think our offensive numbers are extremely misldeaing-we get all or nothing most itmes it seems, either 3-4 homers, numerous hits, or everyone goes 0'fer...

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 06:58 PM
Well I have read on MLB Trade Rumors and Pro Sports Daily that Felix Hernadez may be available this year for the "Right" package.



He's obviously available. That team is so bad and will be so bad for the next 5 years unless they do something drastic, so no amount of improvement without giving up Hernandez will get them out of the cellar.

They have the #1 commodity in Major League Baseball. They could get 4 or 5 starters for him. He's that good.

All of Seattle's prospects are 4 or 5 seasons away from contributing any kind of a solid season in the big leagues. They need guys who are 1 or 2 seasons away or are ready now, so that when their group of guys who are way down in the organizational depth chart come up the ranks, they'll have some experienced players who are already playing well to balance them out. The Mariners need bodies throughout their organization.

Their most solid prospects who are knocking on the door now are 2B Dustin Ackley, 1B Justin Smoak, and Starting Pitcher Michael Pineda.

They don't have a single Catcher in the organization that's worth a hill of beans. That we have two in Grandal and Mesoraco gives us a very good starting point from which to bargain with the Mariners.

Votto they don't need, and Alonso would have to be a DH. Their outfield is too expansive for Alonso to play in it. While everyone wants to give Alonso away, and an American League team is the right team to trade him to, he's not a good fit in Seattle.

Seattle would have to get at least two Starting Pitchers back in return for Felix. No problem, as the REDS have about eight pitchers who look to be #3 starters in the Majors. Who could benefit the most from playing in the expansive outfield of Seattle? Who would be a flyball pitcher that we have who doesn't fit well at the GABP? Those would be the starters you trade along with either Mesoraco or Grandal. They also need starters who have several years of arbitration left so that they can wait for the rest of the team to catch up as they improve. Mike Leake is one that would work.

That's three players, so far for Felix, two starters (Mike Leake and Sam LeCure/Homer Bailey), one Catcher (Yasmani Grandal, Reds #4 prospect),

and, add two Outfielders (Yorman Rodriguez (Reds #6 prospect) and Denis Phipps) who can play the vast outfield of SafeCo, and you have a package that doesn't hurt the REDS either short-term or long-term in exchange for the #1 pitcher under 28 in baseball.

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 07:02 PM
Have to have balance, I think our offensive numbers are extremely misldeaing-we get all or nothing most itmes it seems, either 3-4 homers, numerous hits, or everyone goes 0'fer...

Nothing suggests this to be the case. Our current pythagorean puts us at 8-4 based on runs scored and runs given up and we are 8-4. Last year we won the Division by five games.

We led every Offensive Category last year. We DON'T need any offense. We need more pitching.

We need a pitcher who can shut out the Phillies/Giants or keep them to one run in the playoffs, because no matter how good our Offense could be, we're not likely to score more than 2 runs against Lee, Halladay, Hamels or Oswalt.

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 07:08 PM
Don't forget that Scott Rolen was atrocious defensively in the Playoffs. That side of the infield was just too old. Having Janish over there now is a huge bonus for our Defense. It still sucks that Gomes is the Left Fielder, but as anyone can see, Heisey is proving that he's going to have a solid bat, and should eventually overtake Gomes in Left Field, thus making our Defense even better. Bruce's monster second half is just a prelude to what's to come from him Offensively. Brandon Phillips is healthier this year than last year, and is hitting with authority. We still have the best Offense coming out of Catching than anyone in the National League. Votto is repeating, and in fact, bettering his MVP season. Stubbs is doing just fine and will end up with a better OBP than Gomes, by year end.

We are absolutely loaded Offensively. We have absolutely no need for Hamilton. I wouldn't trade Volquez for Hamilton right now, even if Hamilton was healthy. We need Volquez. We have zero need for Hamilton.

I haven't even touched on the Offensive riches we have at AAA, either. Do you know what's going on there? I'm sure you do. We lack pitching there, too, as we do at AA.

lonewolf371
04-15-2011, 07:34 PM
He's obviously available. That team is so bad and will be so bad for the next 5 years unless they do something drastic, so no amount of improvement without giving up Hernandez will get them out of the cellar.

They have the #1 commodity in Major League Baseball. They could get 4 or 5 starters for him. He's that good.

All of Seattle's prospects are 4 or 5 seasons away from contributing any kind of a solid season in the big leagues. They need guys who are 1 or 2 seasons away or are ready now, so that when their group of guys who are way down in the organizational depth chart come up the ranks, they'll have some experienced players who are already playing well to balance them out. The Mariners need bodies throughout their organization.

Their most solid prospects who are knocking on the door now are 2B Dustin Ackley, 1B Justin Smoak, and Starting Pitcher Michael Pineda.

They don't have a single Catcher in the organization that's worth a hill of beans. That we have two in Grandal and Mesoraco gives us a very good starting point from which to bargain with the Mariners.

Votto they don't need, and Alonso would have to be a DH. Their outfield is too expansive for Alonso to play in it. While everyone wants to give Alonso away, and an American League team is the right team to trade him to, he's not a good fit in Seattle.

Seattle would have to get at least two Starting Pitchers back in return for Felix. No problem, as the REDS have about eight pitchers who look to be #3 starters in the Majors. Who could benefit the most from playing in the expansive outfield of Seattle? Who would be a flyball pitcher that we have who doesn't fit well at the GABP? Those would be the starters you trade along with either Mesoraco or Grandal. They also need starters who have several years of arbitration left so that they can wait for the rest of the team to catch up as they improve. Mike Leake is one that would work.

That's three players, so far for Felix, two starters (Mike Leake and Sam LeCure/Homer Bailey), one Catcher (Yasmani Grandal, Reds #4 prospect),

and, add two Outfielders (Yorman Rodriguez (Reds #6 prospect) and Denis Phipps) who can play the vast outfield of SafeCo, and you have a package that doesn't hurt the REDS either short-term or long-term in exchange for the #1 pitcher under 28 in baseball.
That trade wouldn't work. A Cy Young work horse is worth a legit, current MVP candidate. That means Votto or Bruce.

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 08:45 PM
That trade wouldn't work. A Cy Young work horse is worth a legit, current MVP candidate. That means Votto or Bruce.

They don't need Votto, so then it would be:

Bruce
Leake
Bailey
Grandal
Phipps

But, they'd have to give us:

Felix Hernandez
Brandon League

Hondo
04-15-2011, 10:13 PM
That trade wouldn't work. A Cy Young work horse is worth a legit, current MVP candidate. That means Votto or Bruce.

You wouldnt have to give up an MVP candidate.

What MVP did Roy Halladay cost the Phillies?
What MVP did Cliff Lee cost the Mariners or Rangers?
What MVP did C.C. Sabethia cost the Milwaukee Brewers?

All Cy Young Candidates.

Your theory is flawed.

Kingspoint
04-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Lee, Halladay and Sabathia never had the upside that Felix has.