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fearofpopvol1
10-06-2010, 08:46 PM
If no one else will be the big elephant in the room, I will be.

Sure, tip your hat to Halladay for a stunning performance.

But how utterly disappointing and embarrassing it is for the Reds.

WVRed
10-06-2010, 08:50 PM
YouTube - Beavis and Butthead this sucks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzLQGQY8EhQ)

muddie
10-06-2010, 08:52 PM
Again, my hat is off to Halliday.

Griffey012
10-06-2010, 08:52 PM
Not gonna lie, I don't think there is much any team in baseball could have done against Halladay tonight. The strike zone was very very pitcher friendly, but consistent for both teams. With a pitcher like Halladay on his game like he was tonight you might as well just pray.

Great game by Halladay, he deserved it, just wish it wasn't in a Philly uni.

Unassisted
10-06-2010, 08:53 PM
The upside for the Reds is that the loss shouldn't upset the delicate psyche of Volquez too much. This game was lost in the first inning.

UKFlounder
10-06-2010, 08:54 PM
It's difficult to lose a 5 game series in one game, but the Reds may have just accomplished that.

Edskin
10-06-2010, 08:55 PM
Halladay is awesome, an all-time great. But this was as big of a letdown as you could have as a fan. Ouch. Halladay is great, but there have been MANY greats to pitch in the post-season between 1956 and now....

I had no real hope entering this series (picked a Phillies sweep), but I didn't quite expect THAT :)

We have a young core that will most likely take this series on the chin from a far superior and experienced team...hopefully they learn from it, and come back next year ready to roll.

Johnny Footstool
10-06-2010, 08:56 PM
It's difficult to lose a 5 game series in one game, but the Reds may have just accomplished that.

They had to expect Halladay to be dominating. Not to this degree, but they had to expect him to shut them down. If they let today's game stick in their psyches, then they shouldn't have bothered showing up for the playoffs.

Gainesville Red
10-06-2010, 08:57 PM
My hat's been tipped. Guy was dominant.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 08:57 PM
Halladay is one of the best of our generation, but whether you're no-hit by an all-time great or a guy nobody's ever heard of, it's embarrassing and a little disheartening to open the first playoffs in 15 years like this.

The series isn't over by a long shot. 1 loss is 1 loss, no more, as long as the players focus on Oswalt now. What's done is done. Those players realize Halladay was simply untouchable. They will move on.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 08:59 PM
per johnfayman..

Cabrera: "He and the umpire pitched a no-hitter. He gave him every pitch. Basically, we had no chance"


Halladay did have an enormous strike zone tonight. He was dominant, but it's nice to see a player come out and say it. OCab went up a notch in my book.

UKFlounder
10-06-2010, 09:00 PM
I know I'm overreacting, but being totally uncompetitive in the first game sure does not set a good tone for the rest of the series.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 09:00 PM
You're supposed to hit good pitching if you get to the playoffs.

Maybe my reaction to this will be better down the road. Right now, I'm 27 different kinds of let down, embarrassed, mad, whatever. That sucked.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 09:02 PM
per johnfayman..

Cabrera: "He and the umpire pitched a no-hitter. He gave him every pitch. Basically, we had no chance"


Halladay did have an enormous strike zone tonight. He was dominant, but it's nice to see a player come out and say it. OCab went up a notch in my book.Just make sure to keep it in check. Don't wanna come across looking like The Cards.

WVRed
10-06-2010, 09:02 PM
They had to expect Halladay to be dominating. Not to this degree, but they had to expect him to shut them down. If they let today's game stick in their psyches, then they shouldn't have bothered showing up for the playoffs.

This.

The Reds have responded well to an adverse situation all season. They were swept by the Cardinals and people started to hand the central crown to the Redbirds, and the Reds reeled off 17 out of 21 wins to take control of first.

The Reds were swept by the Phillies in this same ballpark right before the all-star break, and everybody expected the wheels to come flying off. They didn't.

Friday will be do-or-die. If the Reds don't show up Friday, Philly will clinch no later than Tuesday when Halladay faces us again in Cincinnati.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 09:03 PM
The Reds have responded well to an adverse situation all season. They were swept by the Cardinals and people started to hand the central crown to the Redbirds, and the Reds reeled off 17 out of 21 wins to take control of first.

The Reds were swept by the Phillies in this same ballpark right before the all-star break, and everybody expected the wheels to come flying off. They didn't.Yea, they've done well responding to getting swept. But they won't have that luxury if it happens now.

HumnHilghtFreel
10-06-2010, 09:04 PM
Once it got to about the 7th inning, I was pulling for the no-no. I didn't want a 1 hit break up, moral victory they could rest on. I want them to come out the next game pissed off and with something to prove, and really just smack Oswalt around.

UKFlounder
10-06-2010, 09:04 PM
Your last paragraph pretty much contradicts your first one. If you really believe the first one, then being down 2-0 should be no worse than being down 1-0.


This.

The Reds have responded well to an adverse situation all season. They were swept by the Cardinals and people started to hand the central crown to the Redbirds, and the Reds reeled off 17 out of 21 wins to take control of first.

The Reds were swept by the Phillies in this same ballpark right before the all-star break, and everybody expected the wheels to come flying off. They didn't.

Friday will be do-or-die. If the Reds don't show up Friday, Philly will clinch no later than Tuesday when Halladay faces us again in Cincinnati.

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2010, 09:04 PM
To succeed in baseball, you have to have a short memory. I don't think it was embarrassing. Just tip your cap to a pitcher who threw a great game. A no hitter counts no more than any other loss. Go get 'em Friday. Just split in Philly.

RedEye
10-06-2010, 09:06 PM
This kind of feels like the Bengals beginning to the 2005 playoffs. Well, at least in the same ballpark. Granted, our young franchise QB didn't just get taken out on his first pass of the post-season, but getting no-hit after a long playoffs absence sure is demoralizing. At least the culprit this time is a brilliant pitcher who deserves the laurels and not a dirty ex-teammate rolling over deliberately onto a guy's knee.

Cyclone792
10-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Tonight was like October 4th, 1999. The Reds just had no shot right from the beginning. The big difference, though, is that no matter how well Halladay pitched he can't knock us out in one shot like Al Leiter did 11 years ago. Tonight was bad, but October 4th, 1999 is still the worst Reds game of my life.

The Reds will either crawl in a hole and die, or they'll come out and rock Oswalt on Friday. Let's hope the latter happens. This team, this year, has shown an ability to step back up when they've needed to do so. We badly need Arroyo to pitch well, and the lineup needs to get back in a comfort zone at the plate.

Playadlc
10-06-2010, 09:07 PM
per johnfayman..

Cabrera: "He and the umpire pitched a no-hitter. He gave him every pitch. Basically, we had no chance"


Halladay did have an enormous strike zone tonight. He was dominant, but it's nice to see a player come out and say it. OCab went up a notch in my book.

This comment really bothers me. Just shut up, Orlando.

dsmith421
10-06-2010, 09:10 PM
Note to Orlando: you just got completely freaking demolished on the game's biggest stage. Own it. Don't be a Cardinal.

SunDeck
10-06-2010, 09:10 PM
Halladay was freaky good tonight, no matter what anyone says about the strike zone. If anything bothers me about this it's that I'm watching the best pitching money can buy, knowing my favorite club can't afford it.

Cyclone792
10-06-2010, 09:10 PM
I'll also add this: I'd rather get no-hit than blow a six run lead in the 9th inning and lose.

westofyou
10-06-2010, 09:10 PM
If no one else will be the big elephant in the room, I will be.

Sure, tip your hat to Halladay for a stunning performance.

But how utterly disappointing and embarrassing it is for the Reds.

I watched the game in a bar, no sound.

I watched the game, in and out, down and down....

A great game for baseball fans, the worst for a Reds fan.

SunDeck
10-06-2010, 09:11 PM
On a positive note, how about Wood, Ondrusek, Bray?

redsfandan
10-06-2010, 09:12 PM
It's difficult to lose a 5 game series in one game, but the Reds may have just accomplished that.
It's one loss and that loss hurts. But if the Reds win Friday the series will be back to even. The Reds really can't afford to be down 2 games though.

Cyclone792
10-06-2010, 09:12 PM
On a positive note, how about Wood, Ondrusek, Bray?

They pitched well. And when Game 4 happens, Travis Wood needs to be the starter.

Reds4Life
10-06-2010, 09:12 PM
Cabrera needs to shut it. The first playoff game in 15 years for this organization, and you just got owned so bad it's only the second time in baseball history it's ever happened.

Don't cry like a Cardinal.

Razor Shines
10-06-2010, 09:13 PM
OC should probably not say anything. He makes one play and the Reds were one swing away the rest of the game.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 09:14 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, but can you imagine if Wood started? Might still be a scoreless game, in about the 12th inning or so.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 09:14 PM
The disappearing sinker just wasn't fair. It was getting to the plate and just diving into the dirt.

If I have learned anything about baseball in the last few years it is this:

When you see major league hitters taking silly swings, making little contact, swinging at balls in the dirt, etc., the ball is moving late and fools the best hitters in the world pitch after pitch after pitch. That was Halladay tonight. There is nothing they can do about it. There is no more dominating position in sports than a pitcher with his best stuff. He starts each and every event.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 09:15 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, but can you imagine if Wood started? Might still be a scoreless game, in about the 12th inning or so.I was on board with Volquez in Game 1, but man, I was wrong.

Volkie combusted and Wood looked great.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 09:16 PM
I will just say this: Halladay's strike zone was more generous than Volquez' but I don't think it mattered.

Griffey012
10-06-2010, 09:16 PM
Could it be possible that losing to Halladay in this fashion is better than just losing to Halladay. We have all seen how this team bounces back from adversity time and time again...I think they just might bounce back in a big way against Oswalt and Co. Friday.

Griffey012
10-06-2010, 09:17 PM
I will just say this: Halladay's strike zone was more generous than Volquez' but I don't think it mattered.

It mattered in the terms of he may have pitched a 2 or 3 hitter instead of a no hitter, but in the outcome of the game it still would have been a shut out and Halladay was still just dominant. I love watching a guy just pound away at the strike zone.

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2010, 09:19 PM
Volquez was not mentally ready to pitch that game. Good experience for him, going forward, but in no way did he look like a pitcher on a mission and that is what you have to be in the playoffs. Wood looked like a veteran and Volquez like a rookie. Hindsight always 20/20, but mental makeup in the post season plays a big part. Dusty should have learned something about his pitchers and their makeup tonight.

Razor Shines
10-06-2010, 09:20 PM
Volquez was not mentally ready to pitch that game. Good experience for him, going forward, but in no way did he look like a pitcher on a mission and that is what you have to be in the playoffs. Wood looked like a veteran and Volquez like a rookie. Hindsight always 20/20, but mental makeup in the post season plays a big part. Dusty should have learned something about his pitchers and their makeup tonight.

I have to think that he did and hopefully we'll find out for sure if we get a game 4.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 09:21 PM
I don't think Volquez has the makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.

reds44
10-06-2010, 09:21 PM
Wood will start game 4 if there is a game 4.

There's no reason to believe they'll be one.

NJReds
10-06-2010, 09:22 PM
Halladay was dominant. Great effort by him. Reds can still win game two and come back to Cincy with home field advantage.

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2010, 09:22 PM
I don't think Volquez has the makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.

Yet to be seen, but he does have the "stuff." We'll see how he reacts next time he gets the call in a big game.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 09:24 PM
Yet to be seen, but he does have the "stuff." We'll see how he reacts next time he gets the call in a big game.

He has awesome stuff. I'm just not sure about the stuff between his ears.

WVRed
10-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Cabrera needs to shut it. The first playoff game in 15 years for this organization, and you just got owned so bad it's only the second time in baseball history it's ever happened.

Don't cry like a Cardinal.

I don't disagree with a word that Cabrera said (Volquez might have lasted longer than 1 2/3 innings if he was getting the calls Halladay was), it's just a matter of who is saying it. When you are a big reason the score was 4-0 instead of 1-0, you might want to keep quiet.

Reminds me of the old "Leon" commercials for Budweiser.

WVRedsFan
10-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Volquez was not mentally ready to pitch that game. Good experience for him, going forward, but in no way did he look like a pitcher on a mission and that is what you have to be in the playoffs. Wood looked like a veteran and Volquez like a rookie. Hindsight always 20/20, but mental makeup in the post season plays a big part. Dusty should have learned something about his pitchers and their makeup tonight.I got blasted for saying this earlier in the season, but the maturity level of Edinson and even Cueto is just not there. For either one of them. Watching Wood and Leake earlier showed me something. They are as cool as they can be even when things aren't going good. Volquez and Cueto aren't. Not playoff material yet. Sadly.

westofyou
10-06-2010, 09:25 PM
I don't think Volquez has the makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.

Jose Maloney

He'll work it out.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 09:29 PM
I got blasted for saying this earlier in the season, but the maturity level of Edinson and even Cueto is just not there. For either one of them. Watching Wood and Leake earlier showed me something. They are as cool as they can be even when things aren't going good. Volquez and Cueto aren't. Not playoff material yet. Sadly.

I think Cueto, Volquez, and Bailey could all be put into that category.

Wood, Leake, and Arroyo definitely seem like they aren't fazed by pressure. Chapman also seems "cool as ice" on the mound.

RANDY IN INDY
10-06-2010, 09:31 PM
A bit premature, but anyone think that one of Volquez/Cueto will be traded for another "piece" this winter.

reds44
10-06-2010, 09:32 PM
A bit premature, but anyone think that one of Volquez/Cueto will be traded for another "piece" this winter.
Trading Cueto would beyond stupid.

westofyou
10-06-2010, 09:33 PM
A bit premature, but anyone think that one of Volquez/Cueto will be traded for another "piece" this winter.

Cueto, he's farther along on the salary scale, scouting shows his body type will decline with age and yet currently he's a nice asset.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 09:33 PM
A bit premature, but anyone think that one of Volquez/Cueto will be traded for another "piece" this winter.

I'm not sure, but with Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, Bailey, Chapman, Leake, and Wood all viable starting pitchers, I think at least one of these guys needs to be traded for a LF or a SS.

steig
10-06-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm not sure, but with Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, Bailey, Chapman, Leake, and Wood all viable starting pitchers, I think at least one of these guys needs to be traded for a LF or a SS.

Agreed that one of them could be moved. I just don't know who I want to be moved, either Volquez, Cueto, or Bailey. I hate to get rid of any pitcher with the type of stuff that they each can bring. I probably lean towards moving bailey for a shortstop. I think their is plenty of future outfielders in the system.

Halliday pitched great...I've gone from celebrating last week to trying to drink away any knowledge of the game I just watched. :all_cohol

Razor Shines
10-06-2010, 09:37 PM
Trading Cueto would beyond stupid.

I really don't like thinking it, but I fear Cueto will have a start similar to Volquez.

reds44
10-06-2010, 09:37 PM
I really don't like thinking it, but I fear Cueto will have a start similar to Volquez.
And if he does it would still be beyond stupid.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 09:39 PM
I don't think Volquez has the makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.I know Dusty gave more legitimate reasons for his decision to start him in this big game than you just gave for your opinion. Of course, Dusty's first reason, legitimate or not, was more than you just gave.

VR
10-06-2010, 09:39 PM
Thoughts.

I'd rather lose a game 1 no-no to the runaway Cy Young winner than give up 3 in the 9th to lose.

Yes, trade Cueto, Alonso, Francisco.....find a horse or an all-star left fielder (brilliant points on Cueto woy)

Put the best team on the field for the rest of the series, please.

Even if they lose Friday....this team can come back to win it. I've made the mistake of counting the 2010 Reds out a few to many times.

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 09:43 PM
Admittedly, I spent most of the last 2 innings just laughing at the futility of it all.

Only positive to come out of it: this Reds team responds to crap situations better than any team I've followed. Blow big leads? No worries. Get swept by the Cardinals after running your mouths? Not a problem.

They'll lose this series, but it won't be because they go into some tailspin after being no-hit.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 09:44 PM
Admittedly, I spent most of the last 2 innings just laughing at the futility of it all.

Only positive to come out of it: this Reds team responds to crap situations better than any team I've followed. Blow big leads? No worries. Get swept by the Cardinals after running your mouths? Not a problem.

They'll lose this series, but it won't be because they go into some tailspin after being no-hit.

In a strange sort of way, I almost am looking forward to seeing Oswalt and Hamels after tonight.

I mean honestly, it can't get any worse than how things went this evening.

OesterPoster
10-06-2010, 09:44 PM
Admittedly, I spent most of the last 2 innings just laughing at the futility of it all.

Only positive to come out of it: this Reds team responds to crap situations better than any team I've followed. Blow big leads? No worries. Get swept by the Cardinals after running your mouths? Not a problem.

They'll lose this series, but it won't be because they go into some tailspin after being no-hit.

If I remember correctly, that's how Hal McCoy called the series. He said the Reds would lose 2, then win 3 in a row. Daunting, but that's how they've rolled all year.

kbrake
10-06-2010, 09:46 PM
If the Reds reacted the way this board does the season would have ended after Atlanta. Halladay had it going tonight and I'm not ashamed they got no hit. I'm sorry I'm not going to freak out yet.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 09:46 PM
I know Dusty gave more legitimate reasons for his decision to start him in this big game than you just gave for your opinion. Of course, Dusty's first reason, legitimate or not, was more than you just gave.

Hey, TR. I wasn't questioning Dusty, so get off your high horse.

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 09:47 PM
In a strange sort of way, I almost am looking forward to seeing Oswalt and Hamels after tonight.

I mean honestly, it can't get any worse than how things went this evening.

Oswalt could just not walk Jay Bruce... ;)

Patrick Bateman
10-06-2010, 09:51 PM
Admittedly, I spent most of the last 2 innings just laughing at the futility of it all.

Only positive to come out of it: this Reds team responds to crap situations better than any team I've followed. Blow big leads? No worries. Get swept by the Cardinals after running your mouths? Not a problem.

They'll lose this series, but it won't be because they go into some tailspin after being no-hit.

Posts like this are non-sensical. Anyone who watches baseball regularly, should understand that there is ALWAYS a chance. For example, even tonioght the Reds had at least a 40% chance of winning going in. Win on friday and we are back to square one.
Tonight hurt, but its still just one game out of 5.

Tornon
10-06-2010, 09:52 PM
In a strange sort of way, I almost am looking forward to seeing Oswalt and Hamels after tonight.

I mean honestly, it can't get any worse than how things went this evening.

I have been looking forward to facing Oswalt each time we have so far this year

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Posts like this are non-sensical. Anyone who watches baseball regularly, should understand that there is ALWAYS a chance. For example, even tonioght the Reds had at least a 40% chance of winning going in. Win on friday and we are back to square one.
Tonight hurt, but its still just one game out of 5.

What's non-sensical? Of course the Reds, theoretically, have a shot -- but the Phillies are simply a better ballclub. I expected Philly would win this series, I still expect Philly to win this series, but I don't expect the Reds will just roll over and die because they got no hit. I expect the Reds to come out and make a game of it on Friday.

WVRedsFan
10-06-2010, 10:00 PM
A bit premature, but anyone think that one of Volquez/Cueto will be traded for another "piece" this winter.Yes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Volquez traded for an outfielder. I don't think the Reds brass have faith in Heisey and the guys in the minors aren't ready yet. Nix is probably a goner and Gomes probably should be. I think they think they are set a short with Cabrera (who they will re-sign) and Janish. Bailey could also go, but they won't trade both. Cueto stays regardless at least for awhile. But, probably none of this will happen.

Patrick Bateman
10-06-2010, 10:01 PM
What's non-sensical? Of course the Reds, theoretically, have a shot -- but the Phillies are simply a better ballclub. I expected Philly would win this series, I still expect Philly to win this series, but I don't expect the Reds will just roll over and die because they got no hit. I expect the Reds to come out and make a game of it on Friday.

Non sensical is making fact based posts around opinions.
The Phillies are the better team.
That doesn't always count in a 5 game series.

fugowitribe
10-06-2010, 10:03 PM
This.

The Reds have responded well to an adverse situation all season. They were swept by the Cardinals and people started to hand the central crown to the Redbirds, and the Reds reeled off 17 out of 21 wins to take control of first.

The Reds were swept by the Phillies in this same ballpark right before the all-star break, and everybody expected the wheels to come flying off. They didn't.

Friday will be do-or-die. If the Reds don't show up Friday, Philly will clinch no later than Tuesday when Halladay faces us again in Cincinnati.

The difference between what happened then and what happened tonight, is that they dropped 4 games in one, and 3 in another, and then turned it around. Try that now, and we can start talking about Spring Training. I see this as a little more than adversity, this was history. Nobody listen to Colin Cowherd tommorow.....or anytime he's ever right for a while, this is gonna rehash on his show for a long time.

guttle11
10-06-2010, 10:06 PM
Yes. I wouldn't be surprised to see Volquez traded for an outfielder. I don't think the Reds brass have faith in Heisey and the guys in the minors aren't rady yet. Nix is probably a goner and Gomes probably should be. I think they think they are set a short with Cabrera (who they will re-sign) and Janish. Bailey could also go, but they won't trade both. Cueto stays regardless at least for awhile. But, probably none of this will happen.

Well, unless they plan on going with a 7 man rotation next year, something will happen. Really none of their current starters are bullpen arms, so that's out. They could keep Chapman in the pen but I don't think they gave him $30 to not give him a chance to be a dominant starter.

My guess is that two of Bailey, Volquez and Arroyo are gone.If nothing else they could always pick up Bronson's option, trade him and send the $2 million along and get back a better return than just letting him walk with $2 million.

reds44
10-06-2010, 10:06 PM
I don't think the season is over, but it doesn't make what just happend any less crappy.

Gomes needs to stay out of LF too. Start Nix in game 2 and Heisey in game 3.

fugowitribe
10-06-2010, 10:07 PM
Gomes needs to stay out of LF too. Start Nix in game 2 and Heisey in game 3.

Couldn't agree more.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 10:09 PM
I don't think the season is over, but it doesn't make what just happend any less crappy.

Gomes needs to stay out of LF too. Start Nix in game 2 and Heisey in game 3.

Dude, Gomes is the starting LF. Give it a rest, man. Just cope with it. We're in game No. 164 now and people are still complaining about him starting.

Spitball
10-06-2010, 10:09 PM
Jose Maloney

He'll work it out.

It is way too early to write off Volquez. While watching the Twins' Liriano pitch against the Yankees, I'm reminded he had his TJ surgery in November of 2006 and is finally back to pre-surgery form. Outside of Josh Johnson, I can't think of a pitcher who has come back as quickly as Volquez and been immediately successful.

reds44
10-06-2010, 10:10 PM
Dude, Gomes is the starting LF. Give it a rest, man. Just cope with it. We're in game No. 164 now and people are still complaining about him starting.
The man struck out 3 times on 9 pitches tonight. Literally anybody could do that. Add in his defense and that's what you get.

VR
10-06-2010, 10:12 PM
The man struck out 3 times on 9 pitches tonight. Literally anybody could do that. Add in his defense and that's what you get.

I think his 2 strikeouts were ugly enough to count as 3....but alas, only 2 were recorded in the box.
He grounded out to 3rd in the 2nd inning.

reds44
10-06-2010, 10:14 PM
I think his 2 strikeouts were ugly enough to count as 3....but alas, only 2 were recorded in the box.
He grounded out to 3rd in the 2nd inning.
That's right. For some reason there was talk he struck out 3 times on 9 pitches, not sure where that came from lol.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 10:15 PM
The man struck out 3 times on 9 pitches tonight. Literally anybody could do that. Add in his defense and that's what you get.

He struck out twice tonight, not three times. Against a guy that no one in the Reds lineup got a hit off of. In case you didn't notice, Halladay didn't give up a hit to anyone in the order and struck out 8.

But what he did was irrelevant. All these cracks at how horrible he is has gotten old. He's not a very good player. We get it. It gets tiresome after 162 games complaining about his every mistake and every strikeout. Every single game there's commentary after every non-hit or non-out in the field about how awful he is. Everyone knows that by now.

Just enjoy what's left of the season and there might be a change on the offseason. But in case you haven't noticed, he's not going away for the rest of the playoffs (outside of the occasional start by Nix).

The Operator
10-06-2010, 10:16 PM
Was Volquez crying in the dugout after being removed? I was up getting pizza but my mom and girlfriend both thought they saw him in tears. If I had to guess, I'd say it was sweat, but I dunno.

Can't say I blame him if he was. When I was in High School, it took everything I had not to cry after I laid an egg on the mound in my last tournament game. It sucks.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 10:18 PM
I came into tonight expecting the worst. Had already chalked it up as a loss, and was expecting to just not be upset tonight. Came in expecting THE WORST.

And I did not expect us to get no hit. I know it's only one loss, but I'm beyond upset right now. 15 years for that?

I had this image in my head of Gomes making an awful defensive play this postseason that would really cost the Reds. Hopefully that image was in inning 2. Otherwise, I can just see it getting worse.

The decision to start Volquez looks pretty laughable at this point.

reds44
10-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Was Volquez crying in the dugout after being removed? I was up getting pizza but my mom and girlfriend both thought they saw him in tears. If I had to guess, I'd say it was sweat, but I dunno.

Can't say I blame him if he was. When I was in High School, it took everything I had not to cry after I laid an egg on the mound in my last tournament game. It sucks.
I honestly thought he was crying at first too, but I have to believe it was swet.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Oh and to make it worse, I come home and find out our starting shortstop now apparently thinks he plays for the Cardinals. Awful, awful night.

Cedric
10-06-2010, 10:19 PM
Right or wrong it's very tacky for Orlando to say what he said. I would say that about any player.

But maybe the emotion just got the best of him.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 10:19 PM
It is way too early to write off Volquez. While watching the Twins' Liriano pitch against the Yankees, I'm reminded he had his TJ surgery in November of 2006 and is finally back to pre-surgery form. Outside of Josh Johnson, I can't think of a pitcher who has come back as quickly as Volquez and been immediately successful.

I'm not writing him off. I'm just not sure he has it in his makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 10:20 PM
Oh and to make it worse, I come home and find out our starting shortstop now apparently thinks he plays for the Cardinals. Awful, awful night.I haven't ever been a big OC guy, but I'm completely over him after that comment.

We made a big deal during the season about no being complaining punks like The Cardinals and he goes out and does that. Is he signed for next year? I hope not.

Matt700wlw
10-06-2010, 10:20 PM
All they can do is shake it off....Friday is another day.

Win Friday and everything is on track...

reds1869
10-06-2010, 10:21 PM
The club just has to put that one in the loss pile and move on. We witnessed an amazing effort by R.H. It stinks as a Reds fan but as a baseball junkie I really appreciated Halladay's performance. Let's go get 'em Friday.

fearofpopvol1
10-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Dude, Gomes is the starting LF. Give it a rest, man. Just cope with it. We're in game No. 164 now and people are still complaining about him starting.

It's very relevant. His blunder in the field cost the team at least 1 run, maybe 2 tonight. Not that he was the reason the Reds lost, but runs are at a premium in the playoffs. Put Nix out there against RHP for crying out loud.

The Operator
10-06-2010, 10:25 PM
I honestly thought he was crying at first too, but I have to believe it was sweat.That would be my guess as well, even though I didn't see it.

I have to feel for Volkie a little bit. I was the same type of pitcher (obviously at a much much lower level) when I played, I was the hardest thrower in my entire high school but I also earned the nickname "Wild Thang" so you can guess how good my command was. I'll say this, when you're on the mound and can't find the strike zone, it's the loneliest feeling in the world.

I get frustrated as much as the next guy when EV or even Homer or Cueto has an outing like that, but I just try to remember what it felt like when I couldn't find the zone. It sucks, and I certainly never had 45,000 people jeering at me and making it impossible to concentrate.

But alas, we need better. Let's hope Bronson has Rock Star stuff on Friday. We need him.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 10:31 PM
It's very relevant. His blunder in the field cost the team at least 1 run, maybe 2 tonight. Not that he was the reason the Reds lost, but runs are at a premium in the playoffs. Put Nix out there against RHP for crying out loud.

At what point, though, does it sink in that it's not going to happen so why beat a dead horse? After 162 games, it's clear Dusty has Gomes as his LF. Why complain about it every single game?

And the thing is, I don't have a problem discussing it, but that's not what's happening.

Every at bat or error it's that he's "horrible," or "awful," or a "retard," or tonight it was "our idiot LF."

I mean wow, it just gets old. I get it. He's not very good. But people keep saying "Nix should start." Well OK a case could be made for that. But after 162 games, he's not going to start. When does that start to sink in?

All I'm really asking is that the adjectives be kept to a minimum and people just accept that he's the starter. His productivity or lack thereof has been talked about ad nauseum, and I agree it's still relevant. But it's been deduced from analysis to quick & easy cheap shots.

reds44
10-06-2010, 10:32 PM
At what point, though, does it sink in that it's not going to happen so why beat a dead horse? After 162 games, it's clear Dusty has Gomes as his LF. Why complain about it every single game?

And the thing is, I don't have a problem discussing it, but that's not what's happening.

Every at bat or error it's that he's "horrible," or "awful," or a "retard," or tonight it was "our idiot LF."

I mean wow, it just gets old. I get it. He's not very good. But people keep saying "Nix should start." Well OK a case could be made for that. But after 162 games, he's not going to start. When does that start to sink in?

All I'm really asking is that the adjectives be kept to a minimum and people just accept that he's the starter. His productivity or lack thereof has been talked about ad nauseum, and I agree it's still relevant. But it's been deduced from analysis to quick & easy cheap shots.
Except for the fact he's starting on Friday of course.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 10:34 PM
Except for the fact he's starting on Friday of course.

Because of a very special circumstance that Dusty took notice he's 9-for-17 lifetime with 2 homers against the starting pitcher.

That's the one and only reason he's starting.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 10:35 PM
Biggest weaknesses we have all known this entire season:
- no shut down "Ace" pitcher
- cabrera and gomes can't play the field
- gomes can't hit
- gomes is terrible at just about everything
- reds don't show up in big games or against good teams
- cordero closing ballgames

Looks like we were bit by everyone of our major weaknesses, except Cordero. My fear is that we do put together a good game and then Co-Co blows it. But, first we have to get to that point.

Cedric
10-06-2010, 10:35 PM
Because of a very special circumstance that Dusty took notice he's 9-for-17 lifetime with 2 homers against the starting pitcher.

That's the one and only reason he's starting.

If Edmonds was fully healthy he would have been playing LF tonight. I truly believe that.

westofyou
10-06-2010, 10:36 PM
If Edmonds was fully healthy he would have been playing LF tonight. I truly believe that.

That's why the got him, it was a roll of the dice.....

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 10:38 PM
I was on board with Volquez in Game 1, but man, I was wrong.

Volkie combusted and Wood looked great.

Not really... For the Reds to beat Halladay, even without him throwing a no-hitter, it would take a few gambles, and the best possible outing by the Reds starter... Riding with Volquez in this spot was the best option... It was a massive risk, but had the greatest upside.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 10:41 PM
If Edmonds was fully healthy he would have been playing LF tonight. I truly believe that.

I could have seen that happening. Really hard to predict just because we haven't been able to get any sense of Dusty's patterns with Edmonds since he's been in and (mostly) out of the lineup since being traded. But yeah there's a possibility indeed that may have been the case.

But, other than Oswalt who Nix has been a force against, and maybe a RHP here or there if the Reds go further, it's clear that Gomes isn't coming out of the starting lineup from here out.

Blimpie
10-06-2010, 10:41 PM
All they can do is shake it off....Friday is another day.

Win Friday and everything is on track...I agree completely. The goal all along should have been to steal at least one win in Philly. That is still something that is fully attainable.

The Reds have hit Oswalt hard a few times recently and I like their chances to bounce back Friday night.

It does not really matter how they dropped Game #1; the fact simply remains that Philly held serve when they were supposed to do so.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 10:45 PM
Not really... For the Reds to beat Halladay, even without him throwing a no-hitter, it would take a few gambles, and the best possible outing by the Reds starter... Riding with Volquez in this spot was the best option... It was a massive risk, but had the greatest upside.


I was okay with Volquez, as well, for the same reasons.

Unfortunately he blew up, but it really didn't matter in the long run. We ran into a buzz saw tonight.

It happens. It sucks it had to be us (after 15 years), but it happens.

Cedric
10-06-2010, 10:50 PM
It just hurts the psyche more than anything. Reminds people of the Carson injury and what not.

I just hope for a great game Friday and I expect it from these guys. They are a tough bunch.

M2
10-06-2010, 10:54 PM
That's a game that will live in ig...no...miny.

Hopefully Dusty walked into the clubhouse after the game and let it be known that they can't play any worse on Friday. At this point you've got to hope your team has enough pride to prove its more than the honorary winner of the league's charity division.

I think the Reds are more than that, but the problem they face is the Phillies are scary. The entire NL playoffs may just be a formality for them. Outside of Tim Lincecum going triple freak on them, I'm not sure anything's going to activate their nervous system. The World Series may even be a formality for them (and the Phillies fans I know want the Yankees something fierce).

Main thing for the Reds in the next game is not so much to win, because it is not a must-win game, but to show they belong. They've got to demonstrate to themselves that they can play some baseball against the Phillies.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 10:54 PM
My biggest issues with tonight's game though, from a managerial standpoint, but not like I expected any different...

-Phillips is not the guy to have leading off in a pressure game... Especially when facing a pitcher that induces a ton of swinging strikes and ground balls... Phillips is a 78% ground ball hitter...

- OCab, if he's going to be in the line-up, shouldn't be batting 2nd behind a guy that's probably not gonna get on base a lot... That's pretty much 2 guaranteed outs at the top of the order.

- Line-up IMO that should have been with tonight's starters

Stubbs
Rolen
Votto
Bruce
Phillips
OCab
Gomes
Ramon

- Again... Volquez was 100% the correct pick... But if you're carrying 11 arms, and Volquez is your starter, you'd better be prepared with a QUICK back-up plan... Not necessarily somebody up and throwing each inning, but a loose arm that can get ready in a hurry the moment you sense he's not on his game...

- Against the Phillies with Halladay pitching, you know limiting runs is at a premium... Which is 100% why you don't start two of your worst defenders in OCab and Gomes...

traderumor
10-06-2010, 10:55 PM
Hey, TR. I wasn't questioning Dusty, so get off your high horse.That wasn't the point. The point was the fact that he gave several reasons why he chose Volquez for Game #1, while you spout off a baseless opinion without even one reason for your opinion. I think it is a reasonable standard for someone to at least give one reason for a belief. Now, let me climb back on my steed.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 10:55 PM
It just hurts the psyche more than anything. Reminds people of the Carson injury and what not.

I just hope for a great game Friday and I expect it from these guys. They are a tough bunch.


I know.

And I realize that it's just baseball and just a game, but I will be pretty bummed if they lose Friday. There is nothing I can do about it, but I will be bummed.

My grandfather died today. You'd think that would put it into perspective for me, but yet here I am. Venting.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 10:56 PM
And again... I fully expected a game 1 loss, so how it happened really shouldn't matter... Bounce back and play for pride...

But Dusty has to put the right guys on the field to make it happen.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 10:57 PM
Biggest weaknesses we have all known this entire season:
- no shut down "Ace" pitcher
- cabrera and gomes can't play the field
- gomes can't hit
- gomes is terrible at just about everything
- reds don't show up in big games or against good teams
- cordero closing ballgames

Looks like we were bit by everyone of our major weaknesses, except Cordero. My fear is that we do put together a good game and then Co-Co blows it. But, first we have to get to that point.

Right. Except all stats say Cabrera is an above average defender. But I'm sure you knew that.

Cedric
10-06-2010, 10:57 PM
I know.

And I realize that it's just baseball and just a game, but I will be pretty bummed if they lose Friday. There is nothing I can do about it, but I will be bummed.

My grandfather died today. You'd think that would put it into perspective for me, but yet here I am. Venting.

Sorry to hear that.. My Grandma died two weeks ago and the Reds were still on my mind. It happens.

RBA
10-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Something to think about. RBA can be wrong.

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Main thing for the Reds in the next game is not so much to win, because it is not a must-win game, but to show they belong. They've got to demonstrate to themselves that they can play some baseball against the Phillies.

Start with a base hit, and build from there.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 11:00 PM
That wasn't the point. The point was the fact that he gave several reasons why he chose Volquez for Game #1, while you spout off a baseless opinion without even one reason for your opinion. I think it is a reasonable standard for someone to at least give one reason for a belief. Now, let me climb back on my steed.

I said he might not have the makeup. That I didn't trust what was between his ears to be a big game pitcher. I fully supported the decision to start him today.

You just ran off and got all self-righteous. Go back and read the thread. Don't fall off your horse when you do.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Right. Except all stats say Cabrera is an above average defender. But I'm sure you knew that.

meh... wrong line... OCab is an entire .1 runs above average in Range Runs above average... That's not good... He's also a complete hacker at the plate... If you'd really take OCab over Janish defensively at SS, there's not much of an argument...

Brutus
10-06-2010, 11:03 PM
I think reality is just starting to set in for me. The Reds really got no-hit tonight in the playoffs. Wow.

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 11:05 PM
I think reality is just starting to set in for me. The Reds really got no-hit tonight in the playoffs. Wow.

If you want to have a "glass is half full" look -- the Reds 1-hit the Phillies once they got the guy who had no business starting a post-season game off the mound.

M2
10-06-2010, 11:08 PM
Something to think about. In 1956, Don Larsen pitched a perfect game/no hitter, yet the other team still won the series.

No they did not.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:08 PM
If you want to have a "glass is half full" look -- the Reds 1-hit the Phillies once they got the guy who had no business starting a post-season game off the mound.

Meh... This is definitely wrong... Volquez had been the Reds best starter over the last month. He also had a very nice history (albeit small sample size) vs. the Phillies, and good splits vs. lefties...

Starting Volquez wasn't the wrong decision... It had the 2nd worst repercussions if it went wrong (an Arroyo meltdown would've been more ugly), but it was still the perfect gamble given the guy throwing on the other side...

TheNext44
10-06-2010, 11:09 PM
Late to the party, so two points that might have been made already...

1) I blame Bob Boone

2) The Reds could mot get a hit the rest of the post season and I would be happy and proud of this team. It's been a wonderful season and their future is very bright. :-)

RBA
10-06-2010, 11:10 PM
No they did not.

Who stole my id and posting garbage. :D

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 11:11 PM
Meh... This is definitely wrong... Volquez had been the Reds best starter over the last month. He also had a very nice history (albeit small sample size) vs. the Phillies, and good splits vs. lefties...

Starting Volquez wasn't the wrong decision... It had the 2nd worst repercussions if it went wrong (an Arroyo meltdown would've been more ugly), but it was still the perfect gamble given the guy throwing on the other side...

Volquez is a RHP with a history (recent history & long term history) of control problems. Even when he was "on" he was generously described as "effectively wild." That works against hackers and under-.500 teams. Against a lineup like the Phillies, that kind of pitcher usually gets worked.

As I said in another thread, Volquez wouldn't have been among my top 4 to start a postseason game for that exact reason: the risk of him being completely ineffective and having no command is just too great.

Ghosts of 1990
10-06-2010, 11:14 PM
All I can say is I'm really down in the dumps fellas. I really am. I took this one hard tonight.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Volquez is a RHP with a history (recent history & long term history) of control problems. Even when he was "on" he was generously described as "effectively wild." That works against hackers and under-.500 teams. Against a lineup like the Phillies, that kind of pitcher usually gets worked.

As I said in another thread, Volquez wouldn't have been among my top 4 to start a postseason game for that exact reason: the risk of him being completely ineffective and having no command is just too great.
Then look at the bright side, at least Volquez went in game 1 in a game that we literally had no chance to win. Now if we go to game 4 I can almost gurantee Wood is on the mound.

And I think reality set in with me too, but not in the way you might think. We're down 1-0. We get to come back and play again on Friday. It really was only one game.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Meh... This is definitely wrong... Volquez had been the Reds best starter over the last month. He also had a very nice history (albeit small sample size) vs. the Phillies, and good splits vs. lefties...

Starting Volquez wasn't the wrong decision... It had the 2nd worst repercussions if it went wrong (an Arroyo meltdown would've been more ugly), but it was still the perfect gamble given the guy throwing on the other side...

I'm not going to second-guess the decision by Dusty to throw him, because it was a high-risk/high-reward and I knew that when it was announced. Didn't know if it would turn out well, but I also knew it had a chance of turning out great.

But at the same time, yeah Volquez was really good in all of four (4) September starts against Houston, Milwaukee, Arizona and Pittsburgh, but he was absolutely awful the last two starts in August.

I won't complain about him being run out there. I understand the reasoning. It is fair, though, to point out that he's had 12 starts this year prior to the playoffs, and has gone fewer than 5 innings in a third of them. That's shaky odds.

A case could have been made for any of the five starters. And there was a valid case to be made for Volquez (though I hope we have learned our lesson for this season). Now, the next time around needs to go to Wood or Bailey.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:16 PM
There's really no reason not to pitch Wood in game four if we get that far. The "he's a rookie" excuse is out the window now.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 11:16 PM
All I can say is I'm really down in the dumps fellas. I really am. I took this one hard tonight.

So you'll be changing your name from EdinsonVolquez32?

:D

Reds Nd2
10-06-2010, 11:17 PM
Anyone have a link to Marty's call of the last out?

oregonred
10-06-2010, 11:17 PM
Tip of the hat to Halladay. Was worth the risk on Volquez, but I'm not convinced Cueto or Volquez will ever have big game success. Volquez gets a pass into 2011 due to surgery.

Gotta love Travis Wood although burning him with a 4-0 hole against Doc is a head scratcher... Thought it was the easy call to make him the Game 2 starter. If there is a game 4 on Monday and Wood isn't your starter then Dusty needs his head examined. Of course the ball finds Gomes in LF likely costing three runs that Heisey or Nix saves, not that it mattered tonight.

Good news is that it is only one loss, Friday was always going to be the deciding game. Oswalt can be beat and the mission can still be accomplished going home 1-1.

The only thing that irks me is the philospophy of not going for the second best record in the league when it was clearly within grasp. Besides leaving at least $5M in revenue on the table from hosting at least an extra playoff game, with two more wins down the stretch we're getting ready to host Atlanta in Game 1 tomorrow night for a much easlier path to the NLCS while the Phils/Giants have a 5-game death match.

It's all about Friday night at this point.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 11:18 PM
There's really no reason not to pitch Wood in game four if we get that far. The "he's a rookie" excuse is out the window now.

Agreed.

sivman17
10-06-2010, 11:19 PM
Right. Except all stats say Cabrera is an above average defender. But I'm sure you knew that.

Cabrera
Range Factor: 17th out of 21 qualifying SS in the MLB; 76th in the MLB for all SS (qualifying or non-qualifying)


To be honest that was the first stat I looked at and I didn't feel like looking up anymore. He's got a good fielding percentage because he can only get to the easy ones. We have said all year he lacks range.

But I'm sure you knew that.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:19 PM
meh... wrong line... OCab is an entire .1 runs above average in Range Runs above average... That's not good... He's also a complete hacker at the plate... If you'd really take OCab over Janish defensively at SS, there's not much of an argument...

You just proved my point. UZR has OC as an above average defender. Literally the only guy on the Reds roster that an ORG'er will actively look into the UZR number to try to find a flaw with his defense. And show me where I said I'd take OC over Janish defensively. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I guess we're just throwing out the fact that he hit over .300 since the break too?

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:20 PM
Look OC made a bonehead play and Gomes made a bad play in LF but talking about that when we got NO HIT is kind of silly isn't it?

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:20 PM
Cabrera
Range Factor: 17th out of 21 qualifying SS in the MLB; 76th in the MLB for all SS (qualifying or non-qualifying)


To be honest that was the first stat I looked at and I didn't feel like looking up anymore. He's got a good fielding percentage because he can only get to the easy ones. We have said all year he lacks range.

But I'm sure you knew that.

See my post above this one. When UZR proves you wrong, keep digging until you find something to support your argument!

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:21 PM
Look OC made a bonehead play and Gomes made a bad play in LF but talking about that when we got NO HIT is kind of silly isn't it?

You don't get it. It's OC and Gomes's fault that we got no hit!

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:21 PM
You just proved my point. UZR has OC as an above average defender. Literally the only guy on the Reds roster that an ORG'er will actively look into the UZR number to try to find a flaw with his defense. And show me where I said I'd take OC over Janish defensively. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I guess we're just throwing out the fact that he hit over .300 since the break too?

Ignore the guy posting above you, because TBH, that's the main issue... There are FAR too many balls that OCab doesn't get to, or field cleanly because of his range... I can see that without the benefit of any fielding metrics...

Ghosts of 1990
10-06-2010, 11:22 PM
Halladay is one of the best of our generation, but whether you're no-hit by an all-time great or a guy nobody's ever heard of, it's embarrassing and a little disheartening to open the first playoffs in 15 years like this.

The series isn't over by a long shot. 1 loss is 1 loss, no more, as long as the players focus on Oswalt now. What's done is done. Those players realize Halladay was simply untouchable. They will move on.

I think we find out what they're made of Friday night, game two. Period. The season either goes on from there or it pretty much ends there.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:23 PM
You don't get it. It's OC and Gomes's fault that we got no hit!
OC had two of the best ABs in the game today, as silly as that may sound.

Gomes, well, yeah.

Ghosts of 1990
10-06-2010, 11:23 PM
YouTube - Richard Nixon on The Purpose of Life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPAesqaJ9tc&feature=player_embedded)

I think everyone should watch this. I wish the Reds could watch this tonight.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:26 PM
Ignore the guy posting above you, because TBH, that's the main issue... There are FAR too many balls that OCab doesn't get to, or field cleanly because of his range... I can see that without the benefit of any fielding metrics...

Exactly when facts disagree with you, the facts are wrong, and your opinion is right. It's a RZ staple.


OC had two of the best ABs in the game today, as silly as that may sound.

Gomes, well, yeah.

I was being sarcastic. But in all seriousness, could Gomes have played a worse game? He ALMOST dropped that one fly ball, and he had one ground out that he technically could have struck out on. Otherwise, I'm not sure he could have played worse.

George Anderson
10-06-2010, 11:26 PM
All I can say is I'm really down in the dumps fellas. I really am. I took this one hard tonight.

It was one game.

Tip your hat to Halladay and acknowledge the fact he kicked the Reds butts.

Move on to Friday.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:26 PM
You don't get it. It's OC and Gomes's fault that we got no hit!


Nice post Captain Hyperbole... Had only a bit to do with getting no-hit... Having them on the field tonight definitely didn't help the team's chances of securing a win. No hitter or not.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 11:27 PM
That wasn't the point. The point was the fact that he gave several reasons why he chose Volquez for Game #1, while you spout off a baseless opinion without even one reason for your opinion. I think it is a reasonable standard for someone to at least give one reason for a belief. Now, let me climb back on my steed.

I still don't get this TR.

There has been far worse said about Volquez and even disagreement with Dusty's choice with nothing to back it up (in this very thread), and yet you choose to make a point responding to a post of mine in which I say that I don't think he has the makeup to be a big game pitcher. I'm cornfused.


The point was the fact that he gave several reasons why he chose Volquez for Game #1, while you spout off a baseless opinion without even one reason for your opinion.

Uhhh, what? I wasn't even talking about Dusty. I was talking about Volquez. I agreed with the gamble of starting him. It didn't work. Still doesn't change the fact that I doubt he's got it in him to be a big game pitcher. I was just hoping he'd catch lightening in a bottle tonight. So why would you feel the need to even bring Dusty into the discussion? And my opinion is "baseless", but you getting personal is not? okay.


I think it is a reasonable standard for someone to at least give one reason for a belief.

And yet, even though you disagree (with something you think I'm saying, even though I didn't), you give no reason for your belief other than 'Dusty said this and Dusty said that'.

What are you talking about?

Cyclone792
10-06-2010, 11:28 PM
The only thing that irks me is the philospophy of not going for the second best record in the league when it was clearly within grasp. Besides leaving at least $5M in revenue on the table from hosting at least an extra playoff game, with two more wins down the stretch we're getting ready to host Atlanta in Game 1 tomorrow night for a much easlier path to the NLCS while the Phils/Giants have a 5-game death match.

This can't be repeated enough.

Starting with the four games in Colorado, the lackluster 4-3 homestand against the lowly Pirates and Diamondbacks, the 4-5 final road trip of the year and then last Wednesday's white flag game, the Reds left a number of wins on the table the last month of the season. This entire city had a blast last night Tuesday night with what transpired - myself included - but in reality the division should have been clinched on the preceding road trip, and the team should have been sitting on more than merely 91 regular season wins.

I do think we have a pretty good chance to even things up Friday night, but if the Reds come home down 0-2, then there will be an awful lot of reasons to look back on the final four weeks of the season and wonder why they let the Giants pass them by.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:28 PM
Exactly when facts disagree with you, the facts are wrong, and your opinion is right. It's a RZ staple.


Feel free to list the "facts" that are proving your point...

Matt700wlw
10-06-2010, 11:28 PM
I blame Bob Boone

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:29 PM
I don't think Volquez has the makeup to ever be a big game pitcher.


I said he might not have the makeup. That I didn't trust what was between his ears to be a big game pitcher. I fully supported the decision to start him today.

You just ran off and got all self-righteous. Go back and read the thread. Don't fall off your horse when you do.

This was all I was referring to. That is where you entered the discussion.

But really, it doesn't matter, what's more important, sorry to hear about your grandfather.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:30 PM
In all honestly, wouldn't this be the way we have to do this?

We were the only team in baseball history to blow to 6 runs leads in the ninth inning.

So we get no hit in the opener and man up in game 2 and even the series going home.

top6
10-06-2010, 11:30 PM
This can't be repeated enough.

Starting with the four games in Colorado, the lackluster 4-3 homestand against the lowly Pirates and Diamondbacks, the 4-5 final road trip of the year and then last Wednesday's white flag game, the Reds left a number of wins on the table the last month of the season. This entire city had a blast last night Tuesday night with what transpired - myself included - but in reality the division should have been clinched on the preceding road trip, and the team should have been sitting on more than merely 91 regular season wins.

I do think we have a pretty good chance to even things up Friday night, but if the Reds come home down 0-2, then there will be an awful lot of reasons to look back on the final four weeks of the season and wonder why they let the Giants pass them by.

When they didn't even try to win the game after they clinched, it was pretty obvious that this was a team that was just happy to be in the postseason. And, frankly, I think most fans felt that way, and will probably still feel that way a few weeks after the season is over.

EDITED TO ADD: And just to be clear, given my expectations at the beginning of the year, I think I feel that way.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:31 PM
Feel free to list the "facts" that are proving your point...

Orlando Cabrera had a UZR/150 of 5.5 this season, meaning (to my knowledge), he was 5.5 runs above average as a shortstop this year as far as preventing runs on the defensive side of the ball.

You can pick that apart to find whatever holes in his defense that you'd like to find, but it's like saying Jay Bruce isn't good off of ground ball pitchers or something like that. In total, he's been an above average defender this year.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:31 PM
When they didn't even try to win the game after they clinched, it was pretty obvious that this was a team that was just happy to be in the postseason. And, frankly, I think most fans felt that way, and will probably still feel that way a few weeks after the season is over.
Look at how we celebrated, there's no doubt we were happy just to be here, and we should have been.

Don't be mistaken though, this team has a lot of pride. We'll be ready to go Friday.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-06-2010, 11:31 PM
This was all I was referring to. That is where you entered the discussion.

But really, it doesn't matter, what's more important, sorry to hear about your grandfather.

Thanks for the kind words.

I'll drop it.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:33 PM
When they didn't even try to win the game after they clinched, it was pretty obvious that this was a team that was just happy to be in the postseason. And, frankly, I think most fans felt that way, and will probably still feel that way a few weeks after the season is over.

EDITED TO ADD: And just to be clear, given my expectations at the beginning of the year, I think I feel that way.Eh? They hammered the Astros on Thursday and beat the Brewers 2 of 3 over the weekend, and should have swept but for Gomes D in LF. :confused:

Wheelhouse
10-06-2010, 11:34 PM
Something that won't happen: Dusty said before the game when asked about his gameplan for tonight that he didn't want to say because "Halladay might be listening." Since whatever that plan was failed, will anyone repeat the question as to what the gameplan was? I didn't see one, and frankly, I'd bet Dusty didn't have one.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

I'll drop it.

No problem, lost my dad this February. Death is hard. I'm sure the game and the disappointment of that result is a lot on you today. Sorry for my prickliness.

top6
10-06-2010, 11:34 PM
Look at how we celebrated, there's no doubt we were happy just to be here, and we should have been.

Don't be mistaken though, this team has a lot of pride. We'll be ready to go Friday.

Yes. I agree, it was a huge accomplishment.

I agree they have a lot of pride, and they have bounced back from a lot of adversity this year (although that usually happened against bad teams). I really just don't think they have the talent to go very deep, but hopefully they at least win a game or 2, and then who knows. (That was sort of my attitude going in it hasn't really changed.)

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:36 PM
Something that won't happen: Dusty said before the game when asked about his gameplan for tonight that he didn't want to say because "Halladay might be listening." Since whatever that plan was failed, will anyone repeat the question as to what the gameplan was? I didn't see one, and frankly, I'd bet Dusty didn't have one.I'm sure they did. This is a competitive game, so best laid plans and all that.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:36 PM
Yes. I agree, it was a huge accomplishment.

I agree they have a lot of pride, and they have bounced back from a lot of adversity this year (although that usually happened against bad teams). I really just don't think they have the talent to go very deep, but hopefully they at least win a game or 2, and then who knows. (That was sort of my attitude going in it hasn't really changed.)
One of the starting pitchers has to get hot if we're going deep. Maybe we saw Wood start to do that tonight, maybe it'll be Arroyo, or maybe it'll be Cueto. But it's gotta be somebody.

gm
10-06-2010, 11:36 PM
Sometimes you get the bear

and sometimes the bear gets you

Game's on the DVR, I wonder if I'll ever get around to watching it? (Maybe I'll start at inning 3 and watch Wood and the bullpen)

Red's hitters need to get after Mr. Oswalt on Friday. That is all

HeatherC1212
10-06-2010, 11:36 PM
Late to the party, so two points that might have been made already...

1) I blame Bob Boone

2) The Reds could not get a hit the rest of the post season and I would be happy and proud of this team. It's been a wonderful season and their future is very bright. :-)

No one else seems to agree with you here so allow me to be the first one. :) I'm very proud of this team too. No one even gave them a chance at 2ND place in the division at the start of the year and here they are in the NLDS as NL Central champions. That's a pretty big accomplishment for a young team and an organization that didn't even have a winning season for a decade. No matter what happens next, they'll learn from all of this and be better for it in the future.

BTW-I've seen this posted somewhere and heard about it several different places but I haven't seen it posted here yet. This Reds team reminds me a LOT of the Phillies team back in 2007. They hadn't been to the postseason in a long time, they were young and hungry for success, and they were a little overwhelmed by the bright lights and postseason festivities. That team went out in the first round that year but what happened the next year? A little older and a little wiser, they went on to win the World Series in 2008. Most people thought this Reds team got to the postseason a year early so who knows what they can do after a little experience and maybe another piece or two added to the puzzle. I'm encouraged and even though losses still suck, and this one does totally suck, I'm not going to hang my head and I'll still be screaming my head off for our guys on Sunday night. GO REDS. :)

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:37 PM
Please don't start with the "I'm proud of this team" stuff. We've got an entire offseason to do that.

We need to go out and kick some tail on Friday.

top6
10-06-2010, 11:37 PM
Eh? They hammered the Astros on Thursday and beat the Brewers 2 of 3 over the weekend, and should have swept but for Gomes D in LF. :confused:

But it was pretty obvious they were going to have to win 5/6 or even 6/6 to have any chance at the 2 seed, and on Wednesday they came out with a lineup that made me want to cry.

And the players pretty much said that they would be celebrating too much to play the next day. Which is fine - I myself was not very productive at work the next day - but if they had been serious about trying to win in the post season I think they would have taken that Wednesday game seriously (instead of like a joke).

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:38 PM
Something that won't happen: Dusty said before the game when asked about his gameplan for tonight that he didn't want to say because "Halladay might be listening." Since whatever that plan was failed, will anyone repeat the question as to what the gameplan was? I didn't see one, and frankly, I'd bet Dusty didn't have one.
Did you catch the interview with Dusty in like the 4th inning? He said they were going to start to be more aggressive.

I honestly feel like we paniced when we weren't getting hits earlier.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:41 PM
I'm real, real, real ticked off tonight. I said it earlier, but I was fully prepared to lose this game, but it was worse that I expected.

Tomorrow, I'll be on the "win on Friday and we have the advantage", but I'm going to take tonight to be really, really upset. Have to get it out of my system.

REDblooded
10-06-2010, 11:41 PM
Orlando Cabrera had a UZR/150 of 5.5 this season, meaning (to my knowledge), he was 5.5 runs above average as a shortstop this year as far as preventing runs on the defensive side of the ball.

You can pick that apart to find whatever holes in his defense that you'd like to find, but it's like saying Jay Bruce isn't good off of ground ball pitchers or something like that. In total, he's been an above average defender this year.


Last year he was -12.1...


UZR and UZR/150 are very useful metrics. I personally think using them is very effective. However, the fluctuations from year-to-year change the way that they should be used. When evaluating players, I would advise averaging the total from over a few years rather than just picking out one year.
There are a lot of ways to improve this, which I'm sure someone will manage to do in the upcoming years. There are a lot of extra factors that influence this metric, but they can be worked out. However, as of now, this is the best fielding statistic there is.


Read more: http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW (http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW)


http://riveraveblues.com/2010/01/the-stats-we-use-uzr-22389/

3. Do not use UZR per 150 games (UZR/150; found on Fangraphs’ player pages) if at all possible. It’s way too misleading.

reds44
10-06-2010, 11:42 PM
Last year he was -12.1...


UZR and UZR/150 are very useful metrics. I personally think using them is very effective. However, the fluctuations from year-to-year change the way that they should be used. When evaluating players, I would advise averaging the total from over a few years rather than just picking out one year.
There are a lot of ways to improve this, which I'm sure someone will manage to do in the upcoming years. There are a lot of extra factors that influence this metric, but they can be worked out. However, as of now, this is the best fielding statistic there is.


Read more: http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW (http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW)


http://riveraveblues.com/2010/01/the-stats-we-use-uzr-22389/

3. Do not use UZR per 150 games (UZR/150; found on Fangraphs’ player pages) if at all possible. It’s way too misleading.
Boy you want to talk about cherry picking a stat.

Sure he was -12 last year, but the two years before he was +13.

Homer Bailey
10-06-2010, 11:44 PM
Last year he was -12.1...


UZR and UZR/150 are very useful metrics. I personally think using them is very effective. However, the fluctuations from year-to-year change the way that they should be used. When evaluating players, I would advise averaging the total from over a few years rather than just picking out one year.
There are a lot of ways to improve this, which I'm sure someone will manage to do in the upcoming years. There are a lot of extra factors that influence this metric, but they can be worked out. However, as of now, this is the best fielding statistic there is.


Read more: http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW (http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/621965-sabermetrics-a-science-uzr-and-uzr150#ixzz11dXCB0BW)



3. Do not use UZR per 150 games (UZR/150; found on Fangraphs’ player pages) if at all possible. It’s way too misleading.

I understand UZR. I realize it takes around 3 years of data to accurately evaluate a player. Use the last three years, and you STILL have an above average defender. And there is nothing misleading about using UZR/150 with a guy that has as many innings as OC has played. For a guy that has played 20 innings, then yes, it is very misleading.

Caveat Emperor
10-06-2010, 11:46 PM
Let's try to keep the thread on topic -- if you want to get into a discussion about UZR and OCab, take it to another thread.

RedEye
10-06-2010, 11:48 PM
So much for OCab's "theory" about the umpire's expanded strike zone. The Pitch FX data on Fangraphs pretty much debunks (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nlds-game-one-review-philadelphia/) that.

Brutus
10-06-2010, 11:51 PM
So much for OCab's "theory" about the umpire's expanded strike zone. The Pitch FX data on Fangraphs pretty much debunks (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nlds-game-one-review-philadelphia/) that.

Good find.

From the blog:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HalladayGrab.jpg

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:56 PM
But it was pretty obvious they were going to have to win 5/6 or even 6/6 to have any chance at the 2 seed, and on Wednesday they came out with a lineup that made me want to cry.

And the players pretty much said that they would be celebrating too much to play the next day. Which is fine - I myself was not very productive at work the next day - but if they had been serious about trying to win in the post season I think they would have taken that Wednesday game seriously (instead of like a joke).I would have to go with the consensus that understood the Wednesday lineup. Still don't have a problem with it. They got back to business Thursday. If...dog...rabbit...a game here, a game there, pick it apart. They still prob. get the 3rd seed.

traderumor
10-06-2010, 11:58 PM
Good find.

From the blog:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/HalladayGrab.jpgPardon my ignorance, but what is this showing?

Brutus
10-07-2010, 12:01 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is this showing?

The red squares (Philadelphia batting) & triangles (Cincinnati batting) are all the strikes called tonight by John Hirschbeck. The green squares & trianlges are the balls called.

It's showing where the pitches were called relative to the zone. In other words, according to Pitch FX, not many were called outside the zone.

REDblooded
10-07-2010, 12:01 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is this showing?


Pitch plots and where they actually landed as called strikes/balls... Big shock, Halladay worked an inverted "U"

OnBaseMachine
10-07-2010, 12:05 AM
I really, really hope tonight isn't a sign of how this series is going to play out. That was bad. Awful defense, bad pitching by Volquez, and one of the worst offensive displays you will ever seen. I don't recall the Reds hitting a ball hard the whole game. But as bad as tonight was, if the Reds win on Friday night then I won't even care about tonight. My goal was to win one of two in Philly. The Reds still have a chance to do that.

sivman17
10-07-2010, 12:08 AM
It's showing where the pitches were called relative to the zone. In other words, according to Pitch FX, not many were called outside the zone.

Except the pitch to Rolen which was 1.5 feet outside. That's a pretty terrible call.

Cicero
10-07-2010, 12:09 AM
It's one game, whether they got 0 hits or 15 hits we are down 0-1. Get ready for Friday.

deltachi8
10-07-2010, 12:12 AM
Please don't start with the "I'm proud of this team" stuff. We've got an entire offseason to do that.

We need to go out and kick some tail on Friday.

this.

I loathe that stuff almost as much as loser's parades.

REDblooded
10-07-2010, 12:13 AM
Boy you want to talk about cherry picking a stat.

Sure he was -12 last year, but the two years before he was +13.

Then again... It could just show a guy making a massive regression due to age and mobility... It happens.

Brutus
10-07-2010, 12:18 AM
Except the pitch to Rolen which was 1.5 feet outside. That's a pretty terrible call.

Out of 42-43 strikes called, if I counted correctly, that's 1 bad call. That's a darn (expletive avoided) good job by the umpire, don't you think? Only a few of those pitches called were even outside the black. If we were scoring a test in school, that's called acing it.

I'm amazed that over 80-90 percent of the calls can be correct, but people will look for the one or two that was wrong.

sivman17
10-07-2010, 12:24 AM
The amazing thing to me is that it's the first postseason no-hitter since Don Larsen's perfecto in 1956 and Jamie Moyer was in the dugout for both. :D

WVPacman
10-07-2010, 12:26 AM
People let me get this straight... you mean to tell me I waited 15 years to watch my Cincinnati Reds get no hit in the playoffs for the first time in my life?:rolleyes:

I got to give Holliday his props b/c he pitched one of the best games I have ever seen a pitcher pitch.

blumj
10-07-2010, 12:31 AM
There's another on the other side, but that's about as good a chart as you're going to find, they don't get too much closer than that.

Like, this is the Yanks-Twins game going on now: http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/szoneCDB.php?pitchSel=all&game=gid_2010_10_06_nyamlb_minmlb_1/&innings=yyyyyyyyy&s_type=1&sp_type=1&h_size=700&v_size=500&reParsed=0&extraStr=|10/06/2010|New York Yankees @ Minnesota Twins

And Rangers-Rays from earlier: http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/szoneCDB.php?pitchSel=all&game=gid_2010_10_06_texmlb_tbamlb_1/&innings=yyyyyyyyy&s_type=&sp_type=1&h_size=700&v_size=500&reParsed=0&extraStr=|10/6/2010|Texas Rangers @ Tampa Bay Rays

oneupper
10-07-2010, 12:36 AM
Six inches outside isn't "generous". its ridiculous. Plenty of bad calls inside too.

It's not just the calls. It's the expectation of those calls. Batters figured out early that the zone was six inches wider on each side and went up there hacking. There are hardly any close balls called.

This and my eyes confirm OCab's theory. Zone was wide. Very wide.

Perhaps in my lifetime we'll see an automatic ball/strike system, but I'm not counting on it. Here's where MLB can still exert influence for their "scripts". MLB wanted this no-hitter and it happened.

Brutus
10-07-2010, 12:41 AM
Six inches outside isn't "generous". its ridiculous. Plenty of bad calls inside too.

It's not just the calls. It's the expectation of those calls. Batters figured out early that the zone was six inches wider on each side and went up there hacking. There are hardly any close balls called.

This and my eyes confirm OCab's theory. Zone was wide. Very wide.

Perhaps in my lifetime we'll see an automatic ball/strike system, but I'm not counting on it. Here's where MLB can still exert influence for their "scripts". MLB wanted this no-hitter and it happened.

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I count only 5 pitches called all night that were called that don't border up on the zone or are completely inside it. Three of those five are within 2-3 inches.

Clearly, you've never had to umpire a baseball game. That's a darn good zone.

If you were to total up every called pitch in that chart, he got over 90% of them correct. How is that not a good zone?

marcshoe
10-07-2010, 12:41 AM
One game. No matter how it went down, it was one game.

Beat Oswalt Friday, and you have a good start toward making Halliday a footnote.

OnBaseMachine
10-07-2010, 12:54 AM
As crappy as tonight was, I still love my Reds. Win Friday night and tonight is forgotten.

oneupper
10-07-2010, 01:12 AM
I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I count only 5 pitches called all night that were called that don't border up on the zone or are completely inside it. Three of those five are within 2-3 inches.

Clearly, you've never had to umpire a baseball game. That's a darn good zone.

If you were to total up every called pitch in that chart, he got over 90% of them correct. How is that not a good zone?

Since you like these things here is John Hirshbecks' calls for this year from a nifty little tool Joe Lefkowitz's site (whoever that is).

http://www.joelefkowitz.com/kzone.php?x[]=-0.099&x[]=0.623&x[]=0.926&x[]=-2.123&x[]=-1.323&x[]=-0.347&x[]=-1.938&x[]=-0.444&x[]=-1.319&x[]=0.511&x[]=0.812&x[]=1.342&x[]=0.136&x[]=0.348&x[]=-0.908&x[]=0.224&x[]=0.233&x[]=1.775&x[]=0.96&x[]=-1.169&x[]=0.406&x[]=0.688&x[]=0.427&x[]=-1&x[]=-0.185&x[]=-1.644&x[]=-0.977&x[]=-1.467&x[]=0.864&x[]=0.864&x[]=-1.37&x[]=-2.654&x[]=-1.876&x[]=1.073&x[]=0.047&x[]=0.528&x[]=1.181&x[]=-0.41&x[]=1.29&x[]=-1.056&x[]=-1.027&x[]=-1.521&x[]=-0.209&x[]=-0.014&x[]=-1.519&x[]=1.424&x[]=0.034&x[]=-1.425&x[]=1.672&x[]=1.284&x[]=0.095&x[]=0.884&x[]=0.218&x[]=-1.663&x[]=-0.531&x[]=-1.599&x[]=-1.464&x[]=-1.034&x[]=-1.441&x[]=-1.525&x[]=0.267&x[]=-1.349&x[]=-0.934&x[]=0.004&x[]=1.261&x[]=0.418&x[]=1.068&x[]=1.382&x[]=1.842&x[]=-0.371&x[]=0.773&x[]=-0.201&x[]=1.589&x[]=-0.369&x[]=-1.148&x[]=1.617&x[]=-0.817&x[]=0.52&x[]=1.52&x[]=1.064&x[]=-1.796&x[]=0.998&x[]=2.172&x[]=0.861&x[]=1.742&x[]=-0.686&x[]=1.239&x[]=-0.763&x[]=-1.36&x[]=-0.455&x[]=-0.751&x[]=0.523&x[]=-1.531&x[]=0.298&x[]=-0.032&x[]=-0.416&x[]=-1.475&x[]=-0.845&x[]=1.273&x[]=0.461&x[]=0.034&x[]=1.149&x[]=0.668&x[]=-1.466&x[]=-0.044&x[]=-1.972&x[]=-1.353&x[]=-0.114&x[]=0.613&x[]=0.717&x[]=-1.276&x[]=-1.007&x[]=-1.463&x[]=-0.14&x[]=-0.993&x[]=0.084&x[]=0.107&x[]=-0.488&x[]=-0.776&x[]=0.496&x[]=-0.907&x[]=-1.14&x[]=0.43&x[]=-0.722&x[]=-0.849&x[]=-0.563&x[]=-0.783&x[]=0.988&x[]=1.384&x[]=0.359&x[]=0&x[]=1.029&x[]=0.589&x[]=0.849&x[]=-0.274&x[]=-1.679&x[]=-0.456&x[]=-0.93&x[]=-0.758&x[]=0.329&x[]=1.414&x[]=-1.277&x[]=0.091&x[]=-1.277&x[]=0.654&x[]=0.798&x[]=0.042&x[]=-1.185&x[]=-1.565&x[]=-1.87&y[]=1.219&y[]=3.655&y[]=2.185&y[]=2.68&y[]=1.739&y[]=2.589&y[]=1.877&y[]=1.829&y[]=2.323&y[]=2.059&y[]=2.166&y[]=2.493&y[]=2.222&y[]=1.686&y[]=1.474&y[]=1.017&y[]=1.846&y[]=1.77&y[]=1.184&y[]=2.272&y[]=2.97&y[]=1.87&y[]=4.129&y[]=2.243&y[]=1.557&y[]=2.429&y[]=2.246&y[]=2.616&y[]=2.552&y[]=2.552&y[]=3.005&y[]=2.937&y[]=2.755&y[]=1.668&y[]=2.347&y[]=1.442&y[]=2.551&y[]=2.093&y[]=2.333&y[]=2.773&y[]=2.555&y[]=2.206&y[]=1.932&y[]=0.949&y[]=2.848&y[]=1.274&y[]=2.715&y[]=2.489&y[]=0.974&y[]=1.213&y[]=1.592&y[]=2.021&y[]=0.889&y[]=3.032&y[]=1.465&y[]=2.08&y[]=2.591&y[]=2.367&y[]=1.856&y[]=3.621&y[]=1.493&y[]=2.174&y[]=2.19&y[]=3.442&y[]=1.564&y[]=1.368&y[]=1.439&y[]=2.152&y[]=1.158&y[]=3.417&y[]=1.56&y[]=2.628&y[]=1.587&y[]=2.117&y[]=2.419&y[]=1.271&y[]=2.47&y[]=2.243&y[]=1.73&y[]=2.861&y[]=2.128&y[]=2.078&y[]=0.57&y[]=1.875&y[]=1.667&y[]=1.33&y[]=1.978&y[]=0.984&y[]=2.672&y[]=3.696&y[]=3.697&y[]=1.461&y[]=2.861&y[]=1.005&y[]=1.459&y[]=2.174&y[]=2.906&y[]=2.232&y[]=3.916&y[]=2.114&y[]=2.517&y[]=1.682&y[]=2.306&y[]=2.036&y[]=2.623&y[]=2.658&y[]=2.466&y[]=1.89&y[]=2.405&y[]=-0.351&y[]=1.705&y[]=3.112&y[]=1.521&y[]=2.242&y[]=2.653&y[]=4.026&y[]=2.532&y[]=3.623&y[]=2.739&y[]=4.403&y[]=4.156&y[]=3.615&y[]=3.874&y[]=3.534&y[]=2.015&y[]=2.192&y[]=2.19&y[]=2.443&y[]=2.126&y[]=2.85&y[]=4.114&y[]=1.307&y[]=3.931&y[]=1.716&y[]=3.38&y[]=3.478&y[]=3.032&y[]=1.795&y[]=1.872&y[]=3.308&y[]=1.838&y[]=3.549&y[]=3.694&y[]=2.783&y[]=0.533&y[]=0.592&y[]=1.926&y[]=3.452&y[]=3.263&y[]=3.41&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SI&pt[]=CH&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=CU&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=CU&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SL&pt[]=CU&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B

See any difference? I do. Inside strikes. None. Low strikes. Nope.
Wide zone? No.

OCabs point is valid as far as I'm concerned. Of the close pitches down in the zone, how many were balls? Very few.
The zone was WIDE. Even for Hirschbeck.

My thesis: Hirschbeck's expanded his zone for both teams, if you will, and that facilitated the no-no. I concur with Ocab, a guy who has made his living for 20 years or so watching balls fly around home plate and is not known for complaining.

Frankly, I don't appreciate comments like "Clearly you've never had to umpire a baseball game". What do you know? Why should it matter?

We can discuss stuff, but get off the high horse.

kaldaniels
10-07-2010, 01:24 AM
You are a reasonable guy oneupper. But what mechanisms do you believe went into place so that this no hitter could occur?

For the record the Rolen AB was the only one I had issue with.

Brutus
10-07-2010, 01:34 AM
Since you like these things here is John Hirshbecks' calls for this year from a nifty little tool Joe Lefkowitz's site (whoever that is).

http://www.joelefkowitz.com/kzone.php?x[]=-0.099&x[]=0.623&x[]=0.926&x[]=-2.123&x[]=-1.323&x[]=-0.347&x[]=-1.938&x[]=-0.444&x[]=-1.319&x[]=0.511&x[]=0.812&x[]=1.342&x[]=0.136&x[]=0.348&x[]=-0.908&x[]=0.224&x[]=0.233&x[]=1.775&x[]=0.96&x[]=-1.169&x[]=0.406&x[]=0.688&x[]=0.427&x[]=-1&x[]=-0.185&x[]=-1.644&x[]=-0.977&x[]=-1.467&x[]=0.864&x[]=0.864&x[]=-1.37&x[]=-2.654&x[]=-1.876&x[]=1.073&x[]=0.047&x[]=0.528&x[]=1.181&x[]=-0.41&x[]=1.29&x[]=-1.056&x[]=-1.027&x[]=-1.521&x[]=-0.209&x[]=-0.014&x[]=-1.519&x[]=1.424&x[]=0.034&x[]=-1.425&x[]=1.672&x[]=1.284&x[]=0.095&x[]=0.884&x[]=0.218&x[]=-1.663&x[]=-0.531&x[]=-1.599&x[]=-1.464&x[]=-1.034&x[]=-1.441&x[]=-1.525&x[]=0.267&x[]=-1.349&x[]=-0.934&x[]=0.004&x[]=1.261&x[]=0.418&x[]=1.068&x[]=1.382&x[]=1.842&x[]=-0.371&x[]=0.773&x[]=-0.201&x[]=1.589&x[]=-0.369&x[]=-1.148&x[]=1.617&x[]=-0.817&x[]=0.52&x[]=1.52&x[]=1.064&x[]=-1.796&x[]=0.998&x[]=2.172&x[]=0.861&x[]=1.742&x[]=-0.686&x[]=1.239&x[]=-0.763&x[]=-1.36&x[]=-0.455&x[]=-0.751&x[]=0.523&x[]=-1.531&x[]=0.298&x[]=-0.032&x[]=-0.416&x[]=-1.475&x[]=-0.845&x[]=1.273&x[]=0.461&x[]=0.034&x[]=1.149&x[]=0.668&x[]=-1.466&x[]=-0.044&x[]=-1.972&x[]=-1.353&x[]=-0.114&x[]=0.613&x[]=0.717&x[]=-1.276&x[]=-1.007&x[]=-1.463&x[]=-0.14&x[]=-0.993&x[]=0.084&x[]=0.107&x[]=-0.488&x[]=-0.776&x[]=0.496&x[]=-0.907&x[]=-1.14&x[]=0.43&x[]=-0.722&x[]=-0.849&x[]=-0.563&x[]=-0.783&x[]=0.988&x[]=1.384&x[]=0.359&x[]=0&x[]=1.029&x[]=0.589&x[]=0.849&x[]=-0.274&x[]=-1.679&x[]=-0.456&x[]=-0.93&x[]=-0.758&x[]=0.329&x[]=1.414&x[]=-1.277&x[]=0.091&x[]=-1.277&x[]=0.654&x[]=0.798&x[]=0.042&x[]=-1.185&x[]=-1.565&x[]=-1.87&y[]=1.219&y[]=3.655&y[]=2.185&y[]=2.68&y[]=1.739&y[]=2.589&y[]=1.877&y[]=1.829&y[]=2.323&y[]=2.059&y[]=2.166&y[]=2.493&y[]=2.222&y[]=1.686&y[]=1.474&y[]=1.017&y[]=1.846&y[]=1.77&y[]=1.184&y[]=2.272&y[]=2.97&y[]=1.87&y[]=4.129&y[]=2.243&y[]=1.557&y[]=2.429&y[]=2.246&y[]=2.616&y[]=2.552&y[]=2.552&y[]=3.005&y[]=2.937&y[]=2.755&y[]=1.668&y[]=2.347&y[]=1.442&y[]=2.551&y[]=2.093&y[]=2.333&y[]=2.773&y[]=2.555&y[]=2.206&y[]=1.932&y[]=0.949&y[]=2.848&y[]=1.274&y[]=2.715&y[]=2.489&y[]=0.974&y[]=1.213&y[]=1.592&y[]=2.021&y[]=0.889&y[]=3.032&y[]=1.465&y[]=2.08&y[]=2.591&y[]=2.367&y[]=1.856&y[]=3.621&y[]=1.493&y[]=2.174&y[]=2.19&y[]=3.442&y[]=1.564&y[]=1.368&y[]=1.439&y[]=2.152&y[]=1.158&y[]=3.417&y[]=1.56&y[]=2.628&y[]=1.587&y[]=2.117&y[]=2.419&y[]=1.271&y[]=2.47&y[]=2.243&y[]=1.73&y[]=2.861&y[]=2.128&y[]=2.078&y[]=0.57&y[]=1.875&y[]=1.667&y[]=1.33&y[]=1.978&y[]=0.984&y[]=2.672&y[]=3.696&y[]=3.697&y[]=1.461&y[]=2.861&y[]=1.005&y[]=1.459&y[]=2.174&y[]=2.906&y[]=2.232&y[]=3.916&y[]=2.114&y[]=2.517&y[]=1.682&y[]=2.306&y[]=2.036&y[]=2.623&y[]=2.658&y[]=2.466&y[]=1.89&y[]=2.405&y[]=-0.351&y[]=1.705&y[]=3.112&y[]=1.521&y[]=2.242&y[]=2.653&y[]=4.026&y[]=2.532&y[]=3.623&y[]=2.739&y[]=4.403&y[]=4.156&y[]=3.615&y[]=3.874&y[]=3.534&y[]=2.015&y[]=2.192&y[]=2.19&y[]=2.443&y[]=2.126&y[]=2.85&y[]=4.114&y[]=1.307&y[]=3.931&y[]=1.716&y[]=3.38&y[]=3.478&y[]=3.032&y[]=1.795&y[]=1.872&y[]=3.308&y[]=1.838&y[]=3.549&y[]=3.694&y[]=2.783&y[]=0.533&y[]=0.592&y[]=1.926&y[]=3.452&y[]=3.263&y[]=3.41&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SL&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=SI&pt[]=CH&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=CU&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=CU&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FA&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SI&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=CH&pt[]=SL&pt[]=CU&pt[]=CU&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FC&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=SL&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FF&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&pt[]=FT&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=S&r[]=B&r[]=B&r[]=B

See any difference? I do. Inside strikes. None. Low strikes. Nope.
Wide zone? No.

OCabs point is valid as far as I'm concerned. Of the close pitches down in the zone, how many were balls? Very few.
The zone was WIDE. Even for Hirschbeck.

My thesis: Hirschbeck's expanded his zone for both teams, if you will, and that facilitated the no-no. I concur with Ocab, a guy who has made his living for 20 years or so watching balls fly around home plate and is not known for complaining.

Frankly, I don't appreciate comments like "Clearly you've never had to umpire a baseball game". What do you know? Why should it matter?

We can discuss stuff, but get off the high horse.

There were 42 pitches called for strikes tonight. Only five were off the black or worse. That's 88 percent accuracy.

There were only 4 pitches in the zone not called, with four more on the black. That was over 90 percent accuracy.

Honestly, what more could you possibly expect from a zone? Cabrera isn't right. He's coming across like a whiner. Or worse, he's coming across like a Cardinal.

I just honestly wonder if anyone has tried to umpire. It's a fair question. By nature, umpiring is an absolute thankless job. You don't get credit when you do well and get hammered when you don't. But to make matters worse, when an advance in technology gives us the ability to fairly critique someone, and it says they got over 90 percent of their calls correct, how could anyone intellectually criticize that?

Name me a profession where 90 percent success isn't acceptable.

Ron Madden
10-07-2010, 04:02 AM
You have to give credit when credit is due. Roy Halladay deserves credit for a job well done.

This series aint over yet.

TheNext44
10-07-2010, 05:03 AM
Out of 42-43 strikes called, if I counted correctly, that's 1 bad call. That's a darn (expletive avoided) good job by the umpire, don't you think? Only a few of those pitches called were even outside the black. If we were scoring a test in school, that's called acing it.

I'm amazed that over 80-90 percent of the calls can be correct, but people will look for the one or two that was wrong.

Hirshbeck zone was the same all night for everyone, so I can't really complain. And I'll never blame getting no hit on an ump, the opposing pitcher is usually the dominant reason behind it.

But I think getting only 80% of the calls behind home plate in any game, let alone a playoff game, is unacceptable. I know how hard it is, but these are supposed to be the best in the world, they should be able to get them nearly 100% right. ThIs is all they do, and literally billions of dollars ride on them doing their job right. College umps, minor league umps, I don't expect as much from, but these guys are in the bigs, and that should matter.

Plenty of other jobs demand 90% accuracy. Accountants, secretaries, cameramen, plumbers, assembly line workers, pharmacists, it's a long list. All these people would get fired if they were only successful 90% of the time.

Matt700wlw
10-07-2010, 05:58 AM
You have to give credit when credit is due. Roy Halladay deserves credit for a job well done.

This series aint over yet.

No softball for me on Friday....Reds baseball trumps

Brutus
10-07-2010, 06:05 AM
Hirshbeck zone was the same all night for everyone, so I can't really complain. And I'll never blame getting no hit on an ump, the opposing pitcher is usually the dominant reason behind it.

But I think getting only 80% of the calls behind home plate in any game, let alone a playoff game, is unacceptable. I know how hard it is, but these are supposed to be the best in the world, they should be able to get them nearly 100% right. ThIs is all they do, and literally billions of dollars ride on them doing their job right. College umps, minor league umps, I don't expect as much from, but these guys are in the bigs, and that should matter.

Plenty of other jobs demand 90% accuracy. Accountants, secretaries, cameramen, plumbers, assembly line workers, pharmacists, it's a long list. All these people would get fired if they were only successful 90% of the time.

But the professions you mention mostly follow processes and do tangible things. It's another story to make a judgment call and be expected to get them right well over 90% of the time.

For as subjective as calling balls and strikes is, if you get 9 of every 10 called pitches correct, you're doing a fine job.

Roy Tucker
10-07-2010, 09:04 AM
As a baseball fan, I admire at what Halladay did to the Reds. The guy was nails. He could have gone 3-4 more innings at the rate he was going.

As a Reds fan, I'm mad and embarassed. Mad that they lost and embarassed that the Reds get in the national spotlight and have this happen. All the hoopla about Phillies pitching being too good came true. Bah.

bucksfan2
10-07-2010, 09:38 AM
As a baseball fan, I admire at what Halladay did to the Reds. The guy was nails. He could have gone 3-4 more innings at the rate he was going.

As a Reds fan, I'm mad and embarassed. Mad that they lost and embarassed that the Reds get in the national spotlight and have this happen. All the hoopla about Phillies pitching being too good came true. Bah.

I don't really understand how you can be mad or embarrassed. When a pitcher goes out there and throws a no hitter you have to tip your cap. When a pitcher goes out there and dominates like no pitcher I have ever seen before you have to tip more than you cap.

Look at the at bats that Votto had. Halladay was dealing so well that Joey couldn't even flick balls foul. When major league hitters are as fooled as they were last night it isn't because the hitters are bad. Its because the pitcher is just that on. I have never sat and watched a whole no hitter game. The Reds haven't been no hit since 71 (I wonder if the BRM was mad and embarrassed) and they haven't had a no hitter since Browning in the late 80's. IMO its a testament to Doc's stuff last night and the game was something to watch. After the 7th inning or so I was almost hoping the Reds would get no hit. Both from a historical perspective and also from a bounce back perspective.

KittyDuran
10-07-2010, 09:48 AM
I don't really understand how you can be mad or embarrassed. When a pitcher goes out there and throws a no hitter you have to tip your cap. When a pitcher goes out there and dominates like no pitcher I have ever seen before you have to tip more than you cap.

Look at the at bats that Votto had. Halladay was dealing so well that Joey couldn't even flick balls foul. When major league hitters are as fooled as they were last night it isn't because the hitters are bad. Its because the pitcher is just that on. I have never sat and watched a whole no hitter game. The Reds haven't been no hit since 71 (I wonder if the BRM was mad and embarrassed) and they haven't had a no hitter since Browning in the late 80's. IMO its a testament to Doc's stuff last night and the game was something to watch. After the 7th inning or so I was almost hoping the Reds would get no hit. Both from a historical perspective and also from a bounce back perspective.

+1
I started to get excited (as a baseball fan, not a Reds fan) after the 7th because I had never seen a no-hitter. I've only heard a few on the radio (including the 1971 Wise no-no where he also hit 2 HRs) or saw highlights after the fact.

lollipopcurve
10-07-2010, 09:53 AM
That game had an air of unreality about it. At the end, from my perspective, it was somehow less of a no-hitter for Halladay/Phils since it's the playoffs (only 1 win), but for the Reds it was more than 1 loss. Strange.

Reds win Friday and the momentum swings. Pretty much do or die, I figure.

WVRed
10-07-2010, 09:53 AM
You are a reasonable guy oneupper. But what mechanisms do you believe went into place so that this no hitter could occur?

For the record the Rolen AB was the only one I had issue with.

From a players standpoint, if you know that Halladay is getting calls that nobody else is going to get, it changes your entire approach at the plate. Instead of laying off pitches that are balls (because you think Hirshbeck will call them a strike), you are chasing bad pitches all night to avoid the strikeout, thus putting the ball in play for Philly defenders.

Perfect recipe for a no-no.

Reds Fanatic
10-07-2010, 10:10 AM
Looking back at a scoresheet shows how dominating that performance by Halladay was. The Reds only hit 4 balls out of the infield all night. Only 3 batters ever got to a 3 ball count. The only ball really hit well all night was the Travis Wood line drive to right. A performance that good you just have to tip your cap and move on.

dsmith421
10-07-2010, 10:14 AM
After the 7th inning or so I was almost hoping the Reds would get no hit. Both from a historical perspective and also from a bounce back perspective.

See, I was hoping the Reds would win.

bucksfan2
10-07-2010, 10:35 AM
See, I was hoping the Reds would win.

Well obviously but it looked futile at the time. If the Reds were not going to win then I wanted to see a No hitter. IMO this team has shown the ability to bounce back from extreme situations this season. A no hitter is an extreme, a 4-1 dominating performance, not so much.

sivman17
10-07-2010, 10:37 AM
I didn't want to see a no hitter. I've seen enough of them this year. When B Phil hit that weak dribbler I screamed out "beat it out." I really did not want to see my team be no hit in the first game.

dsmith421
10-07-2010, 10:45 AM
Well obviously but it looked futile at the time. If the Reds were not going to win then I wanted to see a No hitter. IMO this team has shown the ability to bounce back from extreme situations this season. A no hitter is an extreme, a 4-1 dominating performance, not so much.

I do not understand this viewpoint at all. I can't imagine rooting for the Reds to get no-hit. Particularly in their first playoff game in 15 years, something I thought was a pipe dream sitting through hundreds of hours of abysmal baseball in a 2/3-empty ball park during the 2000s. That was not cute, nor fun, nor does the history of it appeal to me one iota.

redsfandan
10-07-2010, 10:47 AM
Well obviously but it looked futile at the time. If the Reds were not going to win then I wanted to see a No hitter. IMO this team has shown the ability to bounce back from extreme situations this season. A no hitter is an extreme, a 4-1 dominating performance, not so much.
I'll go for a no-hitter if it's not against my team. I never want to see one vs the Reds. Give me a one-hitter and Halladay still has a great game. But, a one-hitter in the playoffs isn't quite as humiliating as having something done to you that's been done only one other time in the history of major league baseball.

KittyDuran
10-07-2010, 11:07 AM
I do not understand this viewpoint at all. I can't imagine rooting for the Reds to get no-hit. Particularly in their first playoff game in 15 years, something I thought was a pipe dream sitting through hundreds of hours of abysmal baseball in a 2/3-empty ball park during the 2000s. That was not cute, nor fun, nor does the history of it appeal to me one iota.Before this thread escalates into whether a person is a real Reds fan or not - let's just agree to disagree on the viewpoint. And I was there for those games in the 2000s as well - with season tickets no less for most of the years. First year season ticket holder in 2001 - went to 45 games (2 at the Jake) and the team wins only 14. :rolleyes: The only excitement during that season was seeing Dunn come to the show and hoping for a no-hitter to make me feel better about spending my money. :(

NJReds
10-07-2010, 11:27 AM
Reds win Friday and the momentum swings. Pretty much do or die, I figure.

I don't care if it's a no-hitter or a 1-hitter or a slugfest. A loss is one loss. If they win Friday and get the split, then they did what most teams try to do in the playoffs: get a split on the road and come home w/home field advantange.

Halladay was incredible last night. I tip my cap to him and hope the Red beat the daylights out of Oswalt on Friday.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 11:29 AM
Hoping your team gets no hit is kind of like hoping you get to see a tornado and not minding if it destroys your house.

As a fan of the Reds the last thing I want to see is them being on that side of a historic event. Maybe this is how Eric Show felt. Makes me sick to my stomach.

blumj
10-07-2010, 11:30 AM
The only way most people will remember what team it was that Halladay no-hit in his first ever postseason game is if the Reds give them a reason to remember them.

NJReds
10-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Hoping your team gets no hit is kind of like hoping you get to see a tornado and not minding if it destroys your house.


Not really. It's baseball. It's game. There's no life and death here.

What's the difference if Phillips beats out the dribble for a hit and the Reds lose by the exact same score? Nothing. They're still down 1-0 either way.

The Reds are in better shape than the Rays and the Twins today. At least they didn't lose at home.

dsmith421
10-07-2010, 11:32 AM
Before this thread escalates into whether a person is a real Reds fan or not - let's just agree to disagree on the viewpoint.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I don't understand it.

George Anderson
10-07-2010, 11:37 AM
I know how hard it is, but these are supposed to be the best in the world, they should be able to get them nearly 100% right. ThIs is all they do, and literally billions of dollars ride on them doing their job right.

.

You can make this same argument for millionaire MLB hitters. The top success rate for them is hitting the ball and reaching base is 30% of the time. Using your argument since all a MLB player does is get paid millions to hit a ball he should reach base 100% of the time. If we expect 100% perfection out of umpires then we should expect 100% perfection out of the players also.

Hirschbeck called a good game. No it wasn't a perfect game but certainly a game he should be proud about. Also the point made that umpiring is alot harder than it looks is very valid.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 11:46 AM
Not really. It's baseball. It's game. There's no life and death here.

What's the difference if Phillips beats out the dribble for a hit and the Reds lose by the exact same score? Nothing. They're still down 1-0 either way.

The Reds are in better shape than the Rays and the Twins today. At least they didn't lose at home.

I was aware that no one actually dies as a direct result of a no-hitter. The difference between a one hitter and the second post season no hitter in the history of major league baseball is huge.

bucksfan2
10-07-2010, 11:57 AM
Hoping your team gets no hit is kind of like hoping you get to see a tornado and not minding if it destroys your house.

As a fan of the Reds the last thing I want to see is them being on that side of a historic event. Maybe this is how Eric Show felt. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Its a game. Seeing a no hitter is something that I have never witnessed. Seeing a post season no hitter is something that has happened one other time in the history of the game. I think the sense of history makes it unique.

At no point did I want the Reds to lose. But when it became evident that they weren't going to muster a comeback against Halladay I wanted to witness a piece of history.

westofyou
10-07-2010, 11:59 AM
I love me some "baseball history."

I loath being on the side that loses in said "baseball history."

I never wish to be the bottom in any contest, it's bad karma.

blumj
10-07-2010, 11:59 AM
You can make this same argument for millionaire MLB hitters. The top success rate for them is hitting the ball and reaching base is 30% of the time. Using your argument since all a MLB player does is get paid millions to hit a ball he should reach base 100% of the time. If we expect 100% perfection out of umpires then we should expect 100% perfection out of the players also.

Hirschbeck called a good game. No it wasn't a perfect game but certainly a game he should be proud about. Also the point made that umpiring is alot harder than it looks is very valid.

Right, if a pitcher can deceive hitters into seeing a ball as a strike or a strike as a ball, he's going to deceive HP umpires to some extent, too, sometimes when he wants to and sometimes when he doesn't want to. Human eyes are always going to be imperfect at judging whether a fast-moving in lots of directions ball goes through an imaginary box or not.

And, FWIW, the camera angle the network is using may not be the camera angle you're mostly used to watching through, and their little pitch zone box probably isn't especially accurate.

Roy Tucker
10-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Didn't mean to start a firestorm. I never meant that being mad or embarassed was a rational thing or made logical sense ;)

Its just that its bad enough to get your butt kicked no matter how skillful your opponent is. On an abstract level, sure, I can appreciate it. Its just that its my beloved *Reds* that got their butt kicked and did so in a historical way splashed all over news pages.

I was rooting for the no-hitter to get broken up. Halladay was a buzzsaw and was awesome but I didn't want the added onus of being no-hitted. It's a pride thing for me.

VR
10-07-2010, 12:59 PM
I hate Cowherd these days....but he did make 1 good point (and about 15 bad ones) about the Reds yesterday being polite and reverrent towards the veteran Phillies.

They looked like they were scared to death from the get go....all except Wood.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Didn't mean to start a firestorm. I never meant that being mad or embarassed was a rational thing or made logical sense ;)

Its just that its bad enough to get your butt kicked no matter how skillful your opponent is. On an abstract level, sure, I can appreciate it. Its just that its my beloved *Reds* that got their butt kicked and did so in a historical way splashed all over news pages.

I was rooting for the no-hitter to get broken up. Halladay was a buzzsaw and was awesome but I didn't want the added onus of being no-hitted. It's a pride thing for me.

No firesotrm, you just started a good conversation. Hopefully know one gets mad because someone else disagrees with them.

I'm thinking the players on the field wanted to break it worse than I wanted them to. No one in the dug out wanting to witness history from that side. I can't seperate my love of the reds from my love of the history of the game. everytime I see Fisk hit that stupid home run in game 6 of the 75 series I say show game 7, but they seldom do. Hopefully this absurd pitching performance will have the same outcome, and exciting moment for the losing team.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 01:07 PM
I hate Cowherd these days....but he did make 1 good point (and about 15 bad ones) about the Reds yesterday being polite and reverrent towards the veteran Phillies.

They looked like they were scared to death from the get go....all except Wood.

Wood looked pissed he was not the starting pitcher.

REDREAD
10-07-2010, 01:09 PM
Volquez let the team down. Sure, the defense could've stepped it up a notch and minimized the damage, but Volquez just fell on his face.

If we win game 2, we are still very much in it.

The sky is not falling yet.. Wait and see if we lose game 2 before panicing :)

bucksfan2
10-07-2010, 01:17 PM
Wood looked pissed he was not the starting pitcher.

Wood has moxie. I think its the biggest difference between Wood and the likes of Volquez and Cueto. Volquez clearly was off last night and I think the "big game" atmosphere played a large role in that. Wood came in and didn't seem phased at all. I think I am higher on Wood than anyone else on the Reds staff.

George Anderson
10-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Wood has moxie. I think its the biggest difference between Wood and the likes of Volquez and Cueto. Volquez clearly was off last night and I think the "big game" atmosphere played a large role in that. Wood came in and didn't seem phased at all. I think I am higher on Wood than anyone else on the Reds staff.

Volquez had a "deer in the headlight" look going on.

westofyou
10-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Wood looked pissed he was not the starting pitcher.

Maybe he had gas?

macro
10-07-2010, 01:20 PM
Luis Tiant of the Red Sox dominated the Reds in Game 1 of the 1975 World Series, a game the Reds lost 6-0 and collected five hits.

In the 1990 NLCS, the Reds blew a 3-0 lead and lost 4-3 to the Pirates in Game 1.

These Reds aren't the 1975 Reds and these Phillies are a lot better than the 1990 Pirates, but at least there's hope, I guess.



Can anyone pull up a stat that shows the percentage of Game 1 winners that go on to win the series, in MLB history? or at least back to a certain point?

Roy Tucker
10-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Wood has moxie. I think its the biggest difference between Wood and the likes of Volquez and Cueto. Volquez clearly was off last night and I think the "big game" atmosphere played a large role in that. Wood came in and didn't seem phased at all. I think I am higher on Wood than anyone else on the Reds staff.

I love a baseball post that uses the word "moxie". :thumbup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie

Wood looked cool as a cucumber during his whole stint and was nails against the Phillies lefthanders.

OnBaseMachine
10-07-2010, 01:56 PM
See, I was hoping the Reds would win.

Yeah, me too, and there is no way I would ever pull for the Reds to get no-hit.

REDREAD
10-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Main thing for the Reds in the next game is not so much to win, because it is not a must-win game, but to show they belong. They've got to demonstrate to themselves that they can play some baseball against the Phillies.

I picked the Reds to win in 5 on the poll thread, but honestly, I'm thrilled they made the playoffs this year. Huge step forward for this franchise. A glimmer of hope.

It would be nice to win at least 1-2 games vs Philly, but even if we get swept, there is no shame in this season. The Reds franchise is relevant again.
Getting swept by clearly the most superior team on paper (the Phils) is nothing to be embarrassed about. It took the Phils many years to get this dominant. Hopefully, this is just year 1 of our team being relevant, and there are more enjoyable years ahead.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 02:14 PM
I like the fact that Wood looks more concerned about his pitching than the flatness of the bill of his cap.

Oxilon
10-07-2010, 02:17 PM
I bet Josh Hamilton would have gotten a hit off Halladay last night. ;)

blumj
10-07-2010, 02:24 PM
I bet Josh Hamilton would have gotten a hit off Halladay last night. ;)
Oh, please, he only got one hit off Price, and everyone was hitting him yesterday. The guy was totally overshadowed by Bengie Molina. ;)

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 02:28 PM
I bet Josh Hamilton would have gotten a hit off Halladay last night. ;)

Knowing the Reds got where they are this season pretty much without the help of Volquez makes that more than just a little sickening.

Homer Bailey
10-07-2010, 02:34 PM
By my count, its been 32 innings since the Reds have scored on the Phillies.

Eric_the_Red
10-07-2010, 02:37 PM
I like the fact that Wood looks more concerned about his pitching than the flatness of the bill of his cap.

:rolleyes: Really? We're blaming cap bills now?

And if you are truly going there, hats come with flat bills, so Wood is the one that puts more effort into shaping his hat.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 02:48 PM
:rolleyes: Really? We're blaming cap bills now?

And if you are truly going there, hats come with flat bills, so Wood is the one that puts more effort into shaping his hat.

I truly went there. But not sure I blamed his bill for anything, just said I liked the fact that Wood does not look so concerned about his appearance or at least I tried to imply that.

When a normal round headed human puts on a baseball cap a few times the bill will naturally curve to fit the curve of his head. Anyone who has ever owned a cap would know it takes more work to keep the bill flat than it does to let it bend.

TheNext44
10-07-2010, 02:53 PM
You can make this same argument for millionaire MLB hitters. The top success rate for them is hitting the ball and reaching base is 30% of the time. Using your argument since all a MLB player does is get paid millions to hit a ball he should reach base 100% of the time. If we expect 100% perfection out of umpires then we should expect 100% perfection out of the players also.

Hirschbeck called a good game. No it wasn't a perfect game but certainly a game he should be proud about. Also the point made that umpiring is alot harder than it looks is very valid.

Hitting a baseball with a round bat into fair territory and not having it caught by one of nine men who are trying to catch it, and then beating it first base, is much, much, much harder than being able to see if it crosses a plate at the right height.

But let's make a better analogy, I do expect these major leaguers to play defense at a near 100% rate, and they do. Baseball players on whole, make around 95% of the plays they should, which means that most make much higher than that, since most of the errors are made by bad fielders who eventually lose their job.
Similarly, umps make around 95% of the ball and strike calls according to the new technology that tests this. Again, most make nearly all of them, while there are a few that make up most of the misses, and we don't see them very often after that.

So my standard is actually met by major league umps, so it really can't be considered too high.

Like I said, I thought Hirschbeck called a fine game, as I think most umps do. When I say that I expect nearly 100% accuracy from umps, I am not saying that I am dissappointed by their work. In fact, I think umps do a great job, they actually meet my very high expectations.

I was just referreing the claim that many people make that they are happy with a 90% accuracy rate from umps. The umps are better than that and we should expect them to be.

Razor Shines
10-07-2010, 04:02 PM
Maybe he had gas?

LOL. I am not a big fan of determining a player's mindset by the look his face. Sometimes you guess right, sometimes you don't.

My basketball coach would tell me that he knew I was going to play well if looked like I was going to fall asleep before the game. Each guy is different.

NJReds
10-07-2010, 04:25 PM
Yeah, me too, and there is no way I would ever pull for the Reds to get no-hit.

I certainly wasn't pulling for them to get no-hit, and I wanted them to win in the worst way.

But as for the no-hitter, I don't really care if they got no-hit, 1-hit or 4-hit or lost 10-9. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. They're down 1-0 either way.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 04:41 PM
I truly went there. But not sure I blamed his bill for anything, just said I liked the fact that Wood does not look so concerned about his appearance or at least I tried to imply that.

When a normal round headed human puts on a baseball cap a few times the bill will naturally curve to fit the curve of his head. Anyone who has ever owned a cap would know it takes more work to keep the bill flat than it does to let it bend.

I'm with you on this. Don't forget the hat tilted to the side and the loose untucked jersey. This is very important.

Sometimes I would think that being overly concerned with style can negatively effect the substance. It's something that has bothered me for a while, but I have not mentioned anything until your post.

Eric_the_Red
10-07-2010, 04:49 PM
So if Edinson Volquez threw the no-hitter yesterday would it have been because of or in spite of his flat bill and loose jersey? How does CC Sabathia have such good results with a similar style to Volquez, yet Volquez is so inconsistent? Is his bill not straight enough? Or maybe his jersey isn't loose enough? LOL. What some fans won't blame.

Chip R
10-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Call me crazy but why would a guy who is overly concerned with his appearance have his jersey untucked and his hat askew? Seems to me a player would be more concerned about his appearance if he put more effort into making sure his hat is straight and his jersey is tucked in.

westofyou
10-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Goofy hat HOF

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/F94ECD99-9E91-492F-BC77-488BA8E4F652/VV10225.jpg


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QswPDeIcSRA/SvyDdbQJ9PI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/KwhPmO-HyYg/s320/Lou_Gehrig.jpg

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Call me crazy but why would a guy who is overly concerned with his appearance have his jersey untucked and his hat askew? Seems to me a player would be more concerned about his appearance if he put more effort into making sure his hat is straight and his jersey is tucked in.

Because that's the "cool" look Chip.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 04:58 PM
Love it, WOY. Good stuff.

Who is in pic #1?

Cedric
10-07-2010, 04:59 PM
The Rangers sent Edinson down to A ball and made him change his appearance and overall attitude after a short MLB stint a few years back.

I think the rational was that he just didn't carry himself like a professional and I think most businesses would agree with that. Carry yourself like a pro and perform. If you don't perform than people have the right to pick on your appearance.

Chip R
10-07-2010, 05:15 PM
Because that's the "cool" look Chip.


Ah, so just throwing the uni and hat on and looking like an unmade bed requires more effort than carefully tucking in the jersey and carefully adjusting the hat?

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Ah, so just throwing the uni and hat on and looking like an unmade bed requires more effort than carefully tucking in the jersey and carefully adjusting the hat?


Really? Who said it required more effort? But to answer your question (and to play along) yes, I bet it does. I'm sure keeping the hat flat and tilted requires effort. Tucking in your jersey and then blousing it so it's nearly all the way out, without being completely untucked would, indeed, seem to me to require more effort.

bigredmachine1976
10-07-2010, 05:25 PM
Sometimes it does require more effort to look unkept. Its pretty obvious when that is the goal. When volquez has the success of Sabathia we can start comparing them.

And I just don't like the sloppy look. Never said it had an effect on his performance. But when Rolen or Wood take the field they look like they mean business. Volquez looks like a clown.

westofyou
10-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Love it, WOY. Good stuff.

Who is in pic #1?

Jim Bottomley his Reds baseball card is a classic

http://www.auctionscc.com/site/auctionscccom/img/dataset/archive/200703/sm/266.jpg

westofyou
10-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Focusing on the way a player dresses after a loss is a pretty Tim Gun way to look at baseball, fashion is secondary and focusing on that instead of the guys performance is pretty darn funny and silly if you ask me.

BTW Manny Ramirez says Hi.

Raisor
10-07-2010, 05:33 PM
Next thing we'll be hearing calls for making the players shave. Rolen will have a problem with that, I bet.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 05:45 PM
Next thing we'll be hearing calls for making the players shave. Rolen will have a problem with that, I bet.

My grandmother would love that. She's always talking about how clean cut the Reds used to look.

People are always trying to out do each other nowadays to be different. The clean cut look would definitely be different.

BuckeyeRedleg
10-07-2010, 05:48 PM
Focusing on the way a player dresses after a loss is a pretty Tim Gun way to look at baseball, fashion is secondary and focusing on that instead of the guys performance is pretty darn funny and silly if you ask me.

BTW Manny Ramirez says Hi.

And Manny Ramirez isn't a real cerebral player. He's a masher and was darn good at it.

WOY, I respect your opinion and understand what you are saying, but it's not just last night. I think there are some things about Volquez and his make up that need to be examined by this front office as they go forward.

I'll post more on this in a bit.

bucksfan2
10-07-2010, 05:50 PM
Focusing on the way a player dresses after a loss is a pretty Tim Gun way to look at baseball, fashion is secondary and focusing on that instead of the guys performance is pretty darn funny and silly if you ask me.

BTW Manny Ramirez says Hi.

Not necessarily. IIRC the book on Edinson was the Rangers were unhappy with his overall performance on and off the field. As mentioned above they sent him down to A ball with a list of instructions that he needed to follow in order to be promoted up the chain again. Some were aesthetically (they made him cut his hair with a specific number of clippers) while others were performance issues (showing up on time, practice issues, training, etc.)

Guy is uber talented but there seems to be a disconnect between his performance and mental game. I agree with Cedric above in that it really shouldn't be a big issue, but if you aren't dressed like a slob people don't have that to complain about when you struggle.

I subscribe to the philosophy your a professional, act like it. Shirt tucked in, hat on straight, uniform that fits, etc. all really don't matter in regards to performance, but look like a professional.

I thought that the same program that Edinson got sent on was similar to that or Roy Halladay. IIRC it was different organizations but same guy who instituted the program.