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Reds Fanatic
10-07-2010, 03:54 PM
From Fay today:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/10/07/nix-hanigan-to-start-game-2-wood-may-start-game-4

Nix and Hanigan will definitely start tomorrow night and Dusty is considering starting Wood if there is a game 4.

buckeyenut
10-07-2010, 04:01 PM
As long as Nix is in LF, not CF, I'm OK with that.

Edd Roush
10-07-2010, 04:02 PM
From Fay today:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/10/07/nix-hanigan-to-start-game-2-wood-may-start-game-4

Nix and Hanigan will definitely start tomorrow night and Dusty is considering starting Wood if there is a game 4.

These all sound like pretty good calls to me. Let's just hope we can get a run early tomorrow so this team can forget about last night.

Edd Roush
10-07-2010, 04:04 PM
As long as Nix is in LF, not CF, I'm OK with that.

Haha, I didn't even consider that possibility until you said something. Thanks for letting that thought enter into my mind :thumbdown

Any ways, what does everyone think the line-up will look like tomorrow?

Dusty will likely go with

Phillips
Cabrera
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Nix
Stubbs
Hanigan
Arroyo

I would go with
Stubbs
Bruce
Votto
Rolen
Nix
Hanigan
Phillips
Janish
Arroyo

VR
10-07-2010, 04:06 PM
Haha, I didn't even consider that possibility until you said something. Thanks for letting that thought enter into my mind :thumbdown

Any ways, what does everyone think the line-up will look like tomorrow?

Dusty will likely go with

Phillips
Cabrera
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Nix
Stubbs
Hanigan
Arroyo

I would go with
Stubbs
Bruce
Votto
Rolen
Nix
Hanigan
Phillips
Janish
Arroyo

I'm w/ you Edd.....great lineup. You can pick nits on flipping BP and RH, but this is just golden.

penantboundreds
10-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Janish oughta be playing too

RedsManRick
10-07-2010, 04:10 PM
I know it's small sample, but did Dusty not notice how well the offense performed when Cabrera was no longer at the top of the lineup?

sivman17
10-07-2010, 04:12 PM
Mark Sheldon said Nix is starting in LF, so no worries.

sivman17
10-07-2010, 04:15 PM
I know it's small sample, but did Dusty not notice how well the offense performed when Cabrera was no longer at the top of the lineup?

Cabrera batted .298 in the two-hole this season in 68 games.

CTA513
10-07-2010, 04:16 PM
Janish oughta be playing too

I doubt we see him unless someone is hurt.

Edskin
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Janish oughta be playing too

You can't have it both ways with Dusty, IMO.

I think the consensus is that he is a great team-builder/leader by deferring to vets and deftly managing ego's, psyche's, young players, etc... There were several times this season that the Reds could have gone south and I do believe that quality leadership was part of the reason we stayed the course. And leadership comes from the top....and it absolutely filters through Dusty.

Therefore, I think we must accept that Dusty is going to be very slow to make any drastic changes involving those vets that he invests with leading the team.

I don't think he could make a guy like OCab a focal point and then stick him on the bench come post-season.

RedsManRick
10-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Cabrera batted .298 in the two-hole this season in 68 games.

I stand corrected. Perhaps it just correlated with Stubbs and Bruce catching fire. Though the .333 OBP and .415 SLG aren't anything to write home about. I'd still prefer a better OBP threat batting ahead Votto. I don't care if Hanigan and Rolen are slow, you can't score from the dugout. Nor do I care that Bruce and Votto are both LH.

When the 9th inning comes around and the guys at the top are getting an extra PA, I want those guys to be my best hitters.

GAC
10-07-2010, 04:44 PM
Doesn't Hanigan normally start when Arroyo is pitching anyway?

Lance Nix vs Oswalt....


AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
17 9 3 1 2 4 1 2 .529 .556 1.176 1.732

Eric_the_Red
10-07-2010, 05:06 PM
Doesn't Hanigan normally start when Arroyo is pitching anyway?

Yes, Dusty said the same thing.

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 06:01 PM
Janish oughta be playing too

I can't help but to agree completely.I get what everyone is saying about Dusty and the vets and Cabrera being a great clubhouse guy.It's just that Cabrera contributed nothing last night and certainly cost the team 3 runs.For a great leader his playoff track record is poor.

Say what you want about how great Halladay was last night, but even for the great ones it's much more difficult to pitch with a one run lead opposed to cruising thru almost the entire game with a 4 run lead.

westofyou
10-07-2010, 06:13 PM
Arroyo is a FB pitcher, why should Janish start?

Oh that's right his robust .247/.315/.356 Post AS line

WMR
10-07-2010, 06:15 PM
Free Janish

edabbs44
10-07-2010, 06:28 PM
I can't help but to agree completely.I get what everyone is saying about Dusty and the vets and Cabrera being a great clubhouse guy.It's just that Cabrera contributed nothing last night and certainly cost the team 3 runs.For a great leader his playoff track record is poor.

Say what you want about how great Halladay was last night, but even for the great ones it's much more difficult to pitch with a one run lead opposed to cruising thru almost the entire game with a 4 run lead.

Serious question...if Cabrera cost the team 3 runs last night, how many did Edinson cost them?

VR
10-07-2010, 06:58 PM
It speaks volumes about OC when you look how terrible PJ's 2nd half was....and it was still above OC's total year. And the glove work, well...not really close.

That said...I'm still OK with OCab getting most of the starts, I think he does a good job as a field general. If only he could be moved down to the 8th spot......I don't think there would be as much angst as we are having.

VR
10-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Serious question...if Cabrera cost the team 3 runs last night, how many did Edinson cost them?

it was actually 9-0...weren't you paying attention? :)

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 07:16 PM
Serious question...if Cabrera cost the team 3 runs last night, how many did Edinson cost them?

1

And it could've been prevented if he'd just paid better attention to Victorino after the double in the first.

I'm not going to defend Volquez because he didn't throw strikes early in the count and got himself into trouble on his own.With some solid defense though, he could of lasted a few more innings(not sure that would have been all that great).

Maybe I missed it, but I don't get how our starting SS could botch a fairly routine play that cost the Reds 3 runs in the Reds first playoff game in 15 year in witch only 4 runs total were scored and get a free pass around here.:confused:

OnBaseMachine
10-07-2010, 07:25 PM
1

And it could've been prevented if he'd just paid better attention to Victorino after the double in the first.

I'm not going to defend Volquez because he didn't throw strikes early in the count and got himself into trouble on his own.With some solid defense though, he could of lasted a few more innings(not sure that would have been all that great).

Maybe I missed it, but I don't get how our starting SS could botch a fairly routine play that cost the Reds 3 runs in the Reds first playoff game in 15 year in witch only 4 runs total were scored and get a free pass around here.:confused:

Agreed with all this. The first inning run was definitely on Volquez. The second inning, well, Volquez deserves blame for walking Ruiz with two outs but what unfolded after that wasn't his fault.

edabbs44
10-07-2010, 08:03 PM
1

And it could've been prevented if he'd just paid better attention to Victorino after the double in the first.

I'm not going to defend Volquez because he didn't throw strikes early in the count and got himself into trouble on his own.With some solid defense though, he could of lasted a few more innings(not sure that would have been all that great).

Maybe I missed it, but I don't get how our starting SS could botch a fairly routine play that cost the Reds 3 runs in the Reds first playoff
game in 15 year in witch only 4 runs total were scored and get a free pass around here.:confused:

i only saw it live without replay but I didn't think it was routine. Up the middle and throwing across your body isn't routine.

I wonder how much his oblique caused him not to go to first.

Either way, I think letting Halladay get a hit off you probably ranks up there as run causing plays. Walking ruiz didn't do any good either.

Think what you wish, but what is more routine than OCs play is blowing the pitcher off the field, especially when some describe your "stuff" as being the best in the game. Add in the fact that Halladay played in the AL his whole career and it is a no brainer.

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 08:08 PM
i only saw it live without replay but I didn't think it was routine. Up the middle and throwing across your body isn't routine.

I wonder how much his oblique caused him not to go to first.

Either way, I think letting Halladay get a hit off you probably ranks up there as run causing plays. Walking ruiz didn't do any good either.

Think what you wish, but what is more routine than OCs play is blowing the pitcher off the field, especially when some describe your "stuff" as being the best in the game. Add in the fact that Halladay played in the AL your career and it is a no brainer.

I agree with you.But are we even discussing it if Cabrera makes that play.About the play being routine, I think there are only a handful of SS in baseball that doesn't make that play routinely.I'd say imo that makes it routine.

Razor Shines
10-07-2010, 08:09 PM
Serious question...if Cabrera cost the team 3 runs last night, how many did Edinson cost them?

We didn't get to find out how many he would have cost them. OC should have been given an error. I'm sure the replay is out there it was fairly routine for a big league SS. Janish makes that play easily and honestly OC should have as well. I don't know if it was his oblique that made him go to second, that's a good thought to consider though.

As far as giving up a hit to Halladay, Volquez seems like kind of a volatile guy, who knows what Cabrera's error did to his psyche. OC is supposed to be out there as a veteran leader and calming influence, I'm sure saying "my bad" after his misque was very calming for EV.

lollipopcurve
10-07-2010, 08:09 PM
i only saw it live without replay but I didn't think it was routine. Up the middle and throwing across your body isn't routine.

I wonder how much his oblique caused him not to go to first.
Either way, I think letting Halladay get a hit off you probably ranks up there as run causing plays. Walking ruiz didn't do any good either.

Think what you wish, but what is more routine than OCs play is blowing the pitcher off the field, especially when some describe your "stuff" as being the best in the game. Add in the fact that Halladay played in the AL his whole career and it is a no brainer.

I have to agree. That inning was on Volkie, IMO.

PuffyPig
10-07-2010, 09:37 PM
It's just that Cabrera contributed nothing last night and certainly cost the team 3 runs.For a great leader his playoff track record is poor.



(1) No one contributed anything last night.

(2) You don't make radical changes based on one game.

Now, benching Cabrera becuase Janish is better, that's OK. But doing it becasue of last night? Should Votto be benched too? He went hitless, IIRC.

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 09:44 PM
(1) No one contributed anything last night.

(2) You don't make radical changes based on one game.

Now, benching Cabrera becuase Janish is better, that's OK. But doing it becasue of last night? Should Votto be benched too? He went hitless, IIRC.

I think most of us can agree that Cabrera's bad defense didn't just pop up yesterday and if it's going to be even worse due to a possible nagging injury I think you do bench him.There's nothing radical about that.All of that said, if he would of had a year like Joey Votto I'd be all for ridding or dying with him.

Razor Shines
10-07-2010, 10:25 PM
(1) No one contributed anything last night.

(2) You don't make radical changes based on one game.

Now, benching Cabrera becuase Janish is better, that's OK. But doing it becasue of last night? Should Votto be benched too? He went hitless, IIRC.

If OC was our best SS and he made that mistake last night it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me, but the fact that we have a better SS on the bench makes it harder to take. And the fact that a big reason that OC is out there is that he provides veteran leadership and we don't want to put Janish out there because he's never been in the playoffs before and he might freeze up and make some miscue in a big inning.

Patrick Bateman
10-07-2010, 11:03 PM
Janish vs. Cabrera doesnt make a material difference either way.

Again, we got no-hit. The buck honestly stops right there.

Far East
10-07-2010, 11:14 PM
... I think letting Halladay get a hit off you probably ranks up there as run causing plays...
I wonder if another left fielder -- Heisey or Nix -- would have caught Halliday's batted ball.

Speaking of Nix, if the Reds get a dozen hits tomorrow, I hope Laynce gets about 3 or 4 of them and forces Dusty to play him in LF against the next Phils' righty ... if it goes that far.

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 11:50 PM
Janish vs. Cabrera doesnt make a material difference either way.

Again, we got no-hit. The buck honestly stops right there.

No one thinks pitching the next seven innings in a 1 run game as opposed to 4 run game would've changed the way that Holladay went about doing his job?

I don't think I'm reaching to say that going into the 3rd inning,of a 1 run game as opposed to a 4 run game dramatically effects how the final 7 innings plays out.Not only that, the mind set of the Reds hitter changes.The magnitude of that play is being overlooked imo. Saying it didn't matter and that the no-hitter was destined is something I didn't expect to hear here.

Captain Hook
10-07-2010, 11:55 PM
BTW.Sorry for derailing this thread almost completely.

oregonred
10-08-2010, 12:15 AM
Haha, I didn't even consider that possibility until you said something. Thanks for letting that thought enter into my mind :thumbdown

Any ways, what does everyone think the line-up will look like tomorrow?

Dusty will likely go with

Phillips
Cabrera
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Nix
Stubbs
Hanigan
Arroyo

I would go with
Stubbs
Bruce
Votto
Rolen
Nix
Hanigan
Phillips
Janish
Arroyo

I would love that lineup to mix things up tomorrow night. Too out of the box and logical for the current regime to even consider.

Griffey012
10-08-2010, 12:18 AM
I can't help but to agree completely.I get what everyone is saying about Dusty and the vets and Cabrera being a great clubhouse guy.It's just that Cabrera contributed nothing last night and certainly cost the team 3 runs.For a great leader his playoff track record is poor.

Say what you want about how great Halladay was last night, but even for the great ones it's much more difficult to pitch with a one run lead opposed to cruising thru almost the entire game with a 4 run lead.

Nobody on our team contributed ANYTHING except for Bruce and his BB and the Bullpen. We might as well bench the whole team then. How about Rolen and his 0'fer and 3'ks? Do we bench him too. Oh wait, Rolen didn't walk hitters with 2 outs, he didnt get behind on every single hitter, he didn't collapse after a play that may have been a potential out, but I have no seen footage that shows there was a play at first.

But wait, OCab did all of that, that's right...lets take it out on the whipping boy. How does he "certaintly" cost the team 3 runs on a debatable play?

Captain Hook
10-08-2010, 12:25 AM
Because CABRERA gave up a hit to a pitcher? Because Caberara walked a guy with 2 outs, because Cabrera proceeded to give up another walk and hit. I have seen no footage where it was even clear he had a play at first base. As much as many hate Cabrera around here, he could have given up 18 runs and we still didn't muster a hit.

I've looked around to find the play so I can review it closer.I saw the replay the few times they showed it last night but that was it.Seemed like it was a play most SS make.If someone finds a link I'd be happy to take a third and fourth look at it.As it stands, I felt he should've got the out and that it would've been a pretty big deal.I'll leave it at that.

VR
10-08-2010, 12:29 AM
I think this thread proves the biggest problem for fans when you give a day off between every game in the playoffs.....

Razor Shines
10-08-2010, 12:42 AM
Nobody on our team contributed ANYTHING except for Bruce and his BB and the Bullpen. We might as well bench the whole team then. How about Rolen and his 0'fer and 3'ks? Do we bench him too. Oh wait, Rolen didn't walk hitters with 2 outs, he didnt get behind on every single hitter, he didn't collapse after a play that may have been a potential out, but I have no seen footage that shows there was a play at first.

But wait, OCab did all of that, that's right...lets take it out on the whipping boy. How does he "certaintly" cost the team 3 runs on a debatable play?

I'm all for putting the best team on the field, a lot of people have been saying Janish should be starting for more than just last night. The play wasn't debatable. It was an easy play for most short stops, saying it wasn't an easy play is silly. The dude was about half way down the line when OC fielded the ball. I'm not a rocket surgeon but I think there would have been a play at first.

No one is blaming the loss on OC, I'm just saying maybe you put your best SS out there and your chances of winning that game increase. It is true that it may not have mattered, but again I'd have liked to have found out. This isn't about one game. That's the reason no one is calling for Rolen and others to be benched, they're the best we've got at those positions and it would be silly to call for them to be benched after one bad performance.

As I said before, if OC made that error and he was the best we had it wouldn't bother me nearly as much. You could probably say the same for Volquez, he wasn't the right choice and maybe the game would have been different if Wood had started or maybe they still lose. Again, it would have been nice to find out.

Chip R
10-08-2010, 12:42 AM
I think this thread proves the biggest problem for fans when you give a day off between every game in the playoffs.....

:lol:

oregonred
10-08-2010, 12:45 AM
the 1/1/2/1 division series setup is a bad made for TV joke.

Captain Hook
10-08-2010, 12:55 AM
I think this thread proves the biggest problem for fans when you give a day off between every game in the playoffs.....

No doubt.I really need something else to complain about that's more important then giving runs away.

I'll put this behind me tomorrow though and will be rooting for OCabb to make some nice plays or get a big hit so your point is valid.I'd love to eat some crow.

Ron Madden
10-08-2010, 02:13 AM
I think this thread proves the biggest problem for fans when you give a day off between every game in the playoffs.....

You should read the Halladay throws 2nd no-hitter in postseason history thread.

;)

edabbs44
10-08-2010, 06:15 AM
I'm all for putting the best team on the field, a lot of people have been saying Janish should be starting for more than just last night.

A lot of people have said a lot of things this year. Volquez should start Game 1, Walt is asleep, this team will never win with Dusty, Masset should be cut, Nix should be cut, Stubbs should be benched, Bruce should be sent to the minors, Dickerson should start in LF, Dickerson should start in CF, Chapman should break north with the team, OCab's UZR is -36, etc etc etc.

RZ loves to pull the trigger on hypothetical moves.

Griffey012
10-08-2010, 07:32 AM
I'm all for putting the best team on the field, a lot of people have been saying Janish should be starting for more than just last night. The play wasn't debatable. It was an easy play for most short stops, saying it wasn't an easy play is silly. The dude was about half way down the line when OC fielded the ball. I'm not a rocket surgeon but I think there would have been a play at first.

No one is blaming the loss on OC, I'm just saying maybe you put your best SS out there and your chances of winning that game increase. It is true that it may not have mattered, but again I'd have liked to have found out. This isn't about one game. That's the reason no one is calling for Rolen and others to be benched, they're the best we've got at those positions and it would be silly to call for them to be benched after one bad performance.

As I said before, if OC made that error and he was the best we had it wouldn't bother me nearly as much. You could probably say the same for Volquez, he wasn't the right choice and maybe the game would have been different if Wood had started or maybe they still lose. Again, it would have been nice to find out.

I have no issue with debating weather OCab or Janish should be starting, that's been going on all year, and it's an entertaining debate. But it seems this thread and in other threads people are trying to place most all of the blame for the first game debacle right on OCab himself because of that one play.

Until I see a replay I cannot be convinced the play was "routine." I too was dumbfounded he didn't go to first, but never got a good shot during the broadcast of a replay which showed where the runner was down the line. I believe it was Wilson Valdez who hit the ball, he is a pretty quick guy and that ball was by no means hit hard.

My bigger problem between OC and Janish is Gomes vs. Nix...and thankfully Nix is coming out there in game 2 against a tough righty. The bigger issue is in LF. The separation between Gomes and Nix vs a tough righty is much greater than Janish and OC.

Razor Shines
10-08-2010, 10:00 AM
A lot of people have said a lot of things this year. Volquez should start Game 1, Walt is asleep, this team will never win with Dusty, Masset should be cut, Nix should be cut, Stubbs should be benched, Bruce should be sent to the minors, Dickerson should start in LF, Dickerson should start in CF, Chapman should break north with the team, OCab's UZR is -36, etc etc etc.

RZ loves to pull the trigger on hypothetical moves.

Well the only thing I've felt strongly enough to post about this season has been Janish over OCab. Well, actually I was in favor of sticking with Bruce and Stubbs even through their tough times, but those seemed obvious to me.

VR
10-08-2010, 10:32 AM
No doubt.I really need something else to complain about that's more important then giving runs away.

I'll put this behind me tomorrow though and will be rooting for OCabb to make some nice plays or get a big hit so your point is valid.I'd love to eat some crow.

Don't miss my point cap'n....we'll always have stuff for debate, but for the safety and sanity of our constituency, it's best to be able to get right back on the saddle after a crappy game......otherwise it's :deadhorse, personal attacks, and talking right past one another. :)


Let's get this game going today!

:beerme: