Now you are allowed to be embarrassed

[Joseph]

Halladay was dominant in Game 1. It happens, no shame in that.

We had this one and played like little leaguers.

[Brutus]

3 HBP, two wild pitches, 4 errors

'Nuff said.

[edabbs44]

And Cincy had the A defensive team in.

Just a bad scene in Philly.

[cincrazy]

Halladay was dominant in Game 1. It happens, no shame in that.

We had this one and played like little leaguers.

The stage was too big for them.

Bruce losing the ball in the lights... yeah, that sucks. But Rolen making two bone-headed plays, and Phillips having two errors, to go with three hit batsmen.... man.

Nothing will take away from this year, not even this ending. But it's a damn tough pill to swallow.

And I've got tickets to Sunday's game :(. I've been waiting my whole life for this moment, and I'm not even excited about it.

[Edskin]

Kinda saw it coming...one of the few on here who picked Phillies in 3...they are simply a much better team than we are...and on top of that, I think you had to maybe expect a bit of "nervous" play from our guys---we saw it in August in the Cards series as well.

The numbers don't lie, they didn't all year. We had a great season, accomplished something very significant, but we were not good against upper echelon competition. We aren't ready yet for the bright lights. Hopefully this indoctrination will aid us in the future.

[forfreelin04]

The stage was too big for them.

Bruce losing the ball in the lights... yeah, that sucks. But Rolen making two bone-headed plays, and Phillips having two errors, to go with three hit batsmen.... man.

Nothing will take away from this year, not even this ending. But it's a damn tough pill to swallow.

And I've got tickets to Sunday's game :(. I've been waiting my whole life for this moment, and I'm not even excited about it.

I hope they win and prove me wrong, but I got a bad feeling that Cueto will start throwing balls and unravel fairly quickly.

I had hope against Oswalt. It was true hope, but that quickly turned sour.

For game 3, I have no hope. Maybe its better left that way.

[Joseph]

I'm in that boat too cincrazy. It's incredibly anticlimactic to know it very likely just doesn't matter what happens.

[Oxilon]

The 7 inning was just a debacle and hopefully I won't remember it tomorrow. Chapman owned Utley. He owned Howard. And he owned Rollins. But somehow Utley 'Jeters' his way to first base, our gold glove RF misses a routine fly ball, and Utley gets favorable calls at 2nd and 3rd. It something out of a movie script.

[Edskin]

I hope they win and prove me wrong, but I got a bad feeling that Cueto will start throwing balls and unravel fairly quickly.

I had hope against Oswalt. It was true hope, but that quickly turned sour.

For game 3, I have no hope. Maybe its better left that way.

I think the Phils close us out Sunday as well, but even if we win, it's hard to have much hope against Doc on Monday. Let's face it, if we had any prayer to even send this series the max, we had to win tonight.

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm embarrassed, depressed, and angry at the same time. I entered the playoffs with the mindset that I wasn't going to get too upset if they lost because I was happy to just get there this year. Not now. Scratch that. The Reds choked tonight. They had no business losing that game. That's the worst game I've even seen by a major league team.

Scott Rolen boots a routine groundball, then makes a mental error on another grounder. Brandon Phillips boots a routine grounder, then drops a relay throw. Jay Bruce drops a flyball. All three are good defenders any other time. Scott Rolen, I love the dude, but he just looks old right now. That had to be the worst game of his career.

The Phillies have scored 11 runs in two games. Eight of those runs could have been avoided with better defense. What a depressing way to lose a game. I truly thought the Reds would win this series if they could split in Philadelphia. Well, they had their chance and they gave it away. This is easily the worst loss of my lifetime. This easily beats the 1999 one game playoff.

I'm so sad right now.

[forfreelin04]

Kinda saw it coming...one of the few on here who picked Phillies in 3...they are simply a much better team than we are...and on top of that, I think you had to maybe expect a bit of "nervous" play from our guys---we saw it in August in the Cards series as well.

The numbers don't lie, they didn't all year. We had a great season, accomplished something very significant, but we were not good against upper echelon competition. We aren't ready yet for the bright lights. Hopefully this indoctrination will aid us in the future.

I hope so too Ed.

I'm always pretty optimistic, but the facts are that the Reds stunk in big games. Sure, they bounced off the mat quickly all season, but they don't have a winning record against any of the playoff teams.

Which got me thinking, would you rather be a Padres fan?

[Edskin]

I'm in that boat too cincrazy. It's incredibly anticlimactic to know it very likely just doesn't matter what happens.

I think you need to change your mindset. The series is basically over, and no, I don't think it really matters what happens Sunday, therefore it does feel somewhat anticlimatic.

However, if I were you I'd view it like this...it's been a great year and after 15 years you finally get to see the Reds play a home game in the post-season. For one night forget about what it "means" and just enjoy the moment. Root for the Reds to validate the season a bit with a victory as opposed to getting swept away like we weren't even there.

[Tom Servo]

It really really sucks but I don't think we're going to have to wait long to get back in the playoffs.

[Brutus]

and all the forthcoming, "at least we made the playoffs" sentiments that will trail after the Reds lose this series.

But it's completely fair to point out what an utter failure the last 3-4 weeks have been for the Reds.

Botched their chances to get homefield and avoid the Phillies.

Got no-hit in game 1.

And now played like a bunch of amateurs in game 2.

Losing, fine. If they had gone into this series and had a hard-fought loss to the two-time defending NL pennant winners, I'd say go get 'em next year, nothing to be ashamed about. But the last month has been anything but inspiring. And I don't care that they finally broke a 15-year drought... I don't think it's OK to settle for consolation prizes under these conditions.

Pathetic baseball lately. And thing is, even though our preseason expectations might not have been calibrated for 90+ wins and making the postseason, we learned this team is better than to have finished like this.

If it sounds like I've given up on this series, you're right. The Phillies gave the Reds an opportunity and the Reds didn't take advantage. Going back to Cincinnati at 1-1 is a whole different ballgame than 2-0 and now having to beat Hamels, and then if they win, oh by the way they'll have to avoid elimination against Roy Halladay.

That was a crushing blow.

[OnBaseMachine]

I also have tickets to Sunday's game. This is what I've waited my whole life for, I should be so excited right now, but instead, I feel nothing.

[Edskin]

Which got me thinking, would you rather be a Padres fan?

No. Much worse to play 162 at a high level and not even make it...any Reds fan who was alive in 1999 should know :)

Plus, while I think the Pads have a bright future as well, I like ours better. As a team, we probably overachieved a tad this year and we caught the absolute worst opponent for a young team in the playoffs. I view this series as taking our lumps...I'm confident the Reds can get back here.

[forfreelin04]

We'll always have Jay Bruce in the ninth, first pitch, Clinchmas fireworks.

That horrible human being who whistles, Roy Halladay, Jayson Werth's horrendous facial hair, and Charlie Manuel's actual IQ cannot take that away from us.

[wally post]

We got to here with duct tape and velcro. I still hope we can pull this out but I will be very happy no matter the outcome. Tonight's veteran's mistakes are the most upsetting, but they have carried the Reds at times this season, so I say thanks to all the Reds.

[OnBaseMachine]

I don't understand why Brandon Phillips feels the need to drop to the ground on nearly every groundball hit to him. He didn't have to slide for that groundball tonight. He did the same thing last Friday and booted a double play ball hit by McGehee.

[BoydsOfSummer]

You guys go down there and cheer like hell. I have a feeling our boys will at least win that one. Enjoy the heck out of it.

[Redsfan320]

But it's completely fair to point out what an utter failure the last 3-4 weeks have been for the Reds.

Absolutely. It was amazing to make the playoffs, but that's not an excuse for this crappy play, at all.

320

[reds44]

Anybody who doesn't want to go I'll take your tickets lol

[Tom Servo]

You know what must be pretty nice? Having a 140 million dollar payroll. The Yankees and Phillies are constructed for domination.

[forfreelin04]

No. Much worse to play 162 at a high level and not even make it...any Reds fan who was alive in 1999 should know :)

Plus, while I think the Pads have a bright future as well, I like ours better. As a team, we probably overachieved a tad this year and we caught the absolute worst opponent for a young team in the playoffs. I view this series as taking our lumps...I'm confident the Reds can get back here.

Which is why I screamed bloody murder when other fans tried to tell me it didn't matter if we played the Phils in the first round. I was dying to miss them.

Out of any team, the Phils match up the best against us. They have more lefty hitters then the competition and they know our best pitcher is their fourth best.

Granted, we should have won tonight, but on paper that match-up is horrendous.

[OnBaseMachine]

How huge are those two losses in Atlanta and Philadelphia looking right now? Win those two games and the Reds would be hosting the Braves in the NLDS.

[Far East]

If Bronson gets to pitch again, I think Dusty will let him in there for the duration, 101 or whatever number of pitches.

[Wheelhouse]

Halladay was dominant in Game 1. It happens, no shame in that.

We had this one and played like little leaguers.

Yes there is. The team had no offensive game plan. The Reds have won with raw talent and heart, but when it takes a crafted approach to a pitcher, Dusty just doesn't do it. "Be yourself" is the mantra. The players love that, but it won't work against the big boys.

So, game one: they tie for the worst offensive performance in playoff history.

Game two: they tie for the worst defensive performance in playoff history.

What's next?

Yes, there's plenty to be ashamed of in both games. An unprepared team.

[edabbs44]

How huge are those two losses in Atlanta and Philadelphia looking right now? Win those two games and the Reds would be hosting the Giants in the NLDS.

No, Atlanta.

And I was waiting all postseason for someone to say this. Phew...my wait is over.

[Griffey012]

In the words of Kanye West, "What don't kill ya only makes ya stronger." Maybe we end up a complete and utter fail in the playoffs, but I can guarantee we do nothing but use it as motivation to improve for next season, and the next one.

[Brutus]

How huge are those two losses in Atlanta and Philadelphia looking right now? Win those two games and the Reds would be hosting the Giants in the NLDS.

The Reds lost 71 games. I personally think you could pinpoint any one of 71. A loss is a loss. It honestly doesn't bother me that they blew a 6-run lead anymore than it does a 1-run lead.

Considering how long ago those losses were, I'm more concerned by what's happened lately than what happened 3-5 months ago.

[forfreelin04]

Yes there is. The team had no offensive game plan. The Reds have won with raw talent and heart, but when it takes a crafted approach to a pitcher, Dusty just doesn't do it. "Be yourself" is the mantra. The players love that, but it won't work against the big boys.

So, game one: they tie for the worst offensive performance in playoff history.

Game two: they tie for the worst defensive performance in playoff history.

What's next?

Yes, there's plenty to be ashamed of in both games. An unprepared team.

I have no love loss for Dusty. But even I know he has nearly nothing to do with those two losses.

[edabbs44]

Yes there is. The team had no offensive game plan. The Reds have won with raw talent and heart, but when it takes a crafted approach to a pitcher, Dusty just doesn't do it. "Be yourself" is the mantra. The players love that, but it won't work against the big boys.

So, game one: they tie for the worst offensive performance in playoff history.

Game two: they tie for the worst defensive performance in playoff history.

What's next?

Yes, there's plenty to be ashamed of in both games. An unprepared team.

Dusty? Please.

[Eric_the_Red]

In the words of Kanye West, "What don't kill ya only makes ya stronger." Maybe we end up a complete and utter fail in the playoffs, but I can guarantee we do nothing but use it as motivation to improve for next season, and the next one.

How's that working for the Bengals this year?

[edabbs44]

Maybe the whistler hit the brown noise in the 7th.

[savafan]

I can't believe I'm crying right now out of frustration over a baseball game. I've NEVER done that, and had no idea I was THAT emotionally invested.

[sonny]

We could be the 04 Yankees. That hurts :)

[Wheelhouse]

I have very little hope for the Reds against any of the playoff teams. They will be outmanaged and outprepared each time. The best thing about this season was beating the Cardinals and sending them down to a bitter bitter defeat.

[OnBaseMachine]

The Reds lost 71 games. I personally think you could pinpoint any one of 71. A loss is a loss. It honestly doesn't bother me that they blew a 6-run lead anymore than it does a 1-run lead.


It bothers me more because blowing a six run lead in the 9th is historic, and the Reds did it twice.

But let's face it, the Reds opened up on the road against the bets team in baseball and should have walked out of Philly with a split. The Phillies didn't win, the Reds lost.

It's been a great season but what a disappointing ending.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I tried to be mad... but I couldn't do it. Instead I found myself feeling bad for the guys that played a part in the "letdown". Not the team we saw for the last 6 months. Best defense around (w/ SD as we were heard 3 or 4 times tonight). Good bullpen. Walks, HBP, hits. Pressure get to them? Just sheer coincidence? I don't know. But I am sure all involved (BP, Rolen, Bruce, Ondrusek, Chapman, Massett, Rhodes, ?Dusty?) feel as bad (worse) than we do.

A huge game. Almost feel that you have to win every game not started by a game named Halladay. Seemed to have one in hand and then go home to have a chance to lead in the series (before Roy H. again). The players know this. I feel bad for them. I am not embarrassed... just bummed. It has happened in sports before (Red Sox/Mets WS & Bills/Titans playoffs come to mind) and will happen again. Hopefully the team will learn from this and get a chance to return in the coming years and not have a "letdown".

Don't be mad. Don't be embarrassed. Been fun. The ending is always depressing for all but one. I am going to stay positive and be glad that one drought ended (15 years, playoffs). I hope for more next year. 6 months of excitement, 3 weeks of feeling really good led to 1-1/2 weeks of elation. Been fun.

[forfreelin04]

I can't believe I'm crying right now out of frustration over a baseball game. I've NEVER done that, and had no idea I was THAT emotionally invested.

Stop cutting onions after you watch the game.;)

[Phhhl]

We should be excited by the thought of the team coming home and finally playing a complete baseball game. Hopefully, to win a game, but more than that... to show the world that this can be a very good baseball team and force the Phillies to earn their way to the next round. We all know the Reds are a good baseball team. Let's not cry, there is baseball yet to play.

I agree that tonight was much more embarassing than the no-hitter.

[Oxilon]

Game 1, Halladay throws the second no-hitter, first in nearly 60 years, in post-season history. Game 2, The Reds commit the most errors in a single game in NLDS history.
The Reds sure know how to treat their fanbase with their first postseason in 15 years.

[Eric_the_Red]

I wonder what effect, if any, this series will have on potential season ticket buyers next year. Not saying it should, but I could see many on the fence buyers being scared off by the last two games.

[Cyclone792]

Some people wanted to know what could hurt more than Wednesday's no hitter.

Tonight, we all found out.

[oneupper]

I'll take one hundred game 2's over the suckitude, humiliation and "historicness" of game one.

They were in the game, battled, messed up and lost. It happens to the best of them.

[forfreelin04]

I'll take one hundred game 2's over the suckitude, humiliation and "historicness" of game one.

They were in the game, battled, messed up and lost. It happens to the best of them.

Sir, you are in a field all by yourself.

Does anyone really prefer Game 2 over Game 1?

[edabbs44]

I wonder what effect, if any, this series will have on potential season ticket buyers next year. Not saying it should, but I could see many on the fence buyers being scared off by the last two games.

Maybe they will show up since they seem to stay away when they do well.

[Brutus]

I'll take one hundred game 2's over the suckitude, humiliation and "historicness" of game one.

They were in the game, battled, messed up and lost. It happens to the best of them.

Naw. They were in the game, choked, and lost. They didn't battle, they surrendered with a bunch of mental and physical errors.

Battling is making some nice plays, playing your best but just getting beat by a better team.

I feel much worse about this than I did after being no-hit. At least in the no-hitter they were just beat by a tremendous pitcher that was on the money. Tonight, the Reds jumped out to a lead and squandered it by playing like amateurs from the 5th inning forward.

[Roy Tucker]

I'll take one hundred game 2's over the suckitude, humiliation and "historicness" of game one.

They were in the game, battled, messed up and lost. It happens to the best of them.

Bah. I'll give you both games. I don't want them.

Humbug.

[edabbs44]

Sir, you are in a field all by yourself.

Does anyone really prefer Game 2 over Game 1?

Lord no. This was 15 times worse.

Especially when the defensive "miscues" of Game 1 were absolutely dwarfed by tonight's travesty.

[Razor Shines]

I'll take one hundred game 2's over the suckitude, humiliation and "historicness" of game one.

They were in the game, battled, messed up and lost. It happens to the best of them.

No way. In game 2 the whole team Orlando cabrera'd all over themselves (I just had to throw that in there to piss off edabbs :) ). But seriously, this was way worse. I didn't feel like throwing things after game one.

[edabbs44]

No way. In game 2 the whole team Orlando cabrera'd all over themselves (I just had to throw that in there to piss off edabbs :) ). But seriously, this was way worse. I didn't feel pike throwing after game one.

One could make the argument that everything went to poop after Cabrera's leadership exited stage left.

Just saying that one could make the argument.

[Griffey012]

How's that working for the Bengals this year?

The Bengals were depending on Cedric Benson and a bunch of guys recently released from jail.

That's like the Reds depending on Lastings Milledge and Nyjer Morgan. We have real talent and real hope.

[savafan]

I would have preferred getting no-hit by a pitcher named Roy for the 2nd consecutive game than to be beaten by the men in blue.

[OnBaseMachine]

I would much rather get no-hit than to completely give away a game. The Reds should be sitting in the drivers seat right now heading back home after splitting in Philly.

[Griffey012]

It bothers me more because blowing a six run lead in the 9th is historic, and the Reds did it twice.

But let's face it, the Reds opened up on the road against the bets team in baseball and should have walked out of Philly with a split. The Phillies didn't win, the Reds lost.

It's been a great season but what a disappointing ending.

Who said it's over?

[reds1869]

This is the worse I've ever felt after a Reds loss. I am just crushed emotionally. Nothing more to add...ugh.

[Oxilon]

Sir, you are in a field all by yourself.

Does anyone really prefer Game 2 over Game 1?

Apples and oranges.

Game 1 was a feeling of helplessness. Game 2 was a feeling of anger and frustration. Both feelings are different, but both feel completely horrible.

It's funny the joy a 162 game season can bring you, and than with one fell swoop, misery and anger can set in after two games and make it all for not. God I love baseball.

[savafan]

I felt like Hughie Fullerton and Ring Lardner watching the Sox tonight.

[savafan]

This is the worse I've ever felt after a Reds loss. I am just crushed emotionally. Nothing more to add...ugh.

Right there with you.

[edabbs44]

Who said it's over?

http://img.youtube.com/vi/8zc0BI7T1LA/0.jpg

[oneupper]

I guess it's choosing between a rock and hard place, but I look at it this way,

Game One: Outclassed by Philly pitcher.
Game Two: Self-inflicted loss, by performing out of character (extremely poor defense).

I like Oxilon's analogy. Helplessness vs. Anger and Frustration.

I hate helplessness, anger and frustration I can deal with.

Game one said to me: bad team. Game two was "bad game".

I guess its just me.

[forfreelin04]

I guess it's choosing between a rock and hard place, but I look at it this way,

Game One: Outclassed by Philly pitcher.
Game Two: Self-inflicted loss, by performing out of character (extremely poor defense).

I like Oxilon's analogy. Helplessness vs. Anger and Frustration.

I hate helplessness, anger and frustration I can deal with.

Game one said to me: bad team. Game two was "bad game".

I guess its just me.

See this doesn't make sense. If every no hitter = bad team; then the Pirates would get no hit at least twice a year. They don't.

For a no hitter, the pitcher needs to be on cloud nine and receive a little bit of luck too.

[edabbs44]

I guess it's choosing between a rock and hard place, but I look at it this way,

Game One: Outclassed by Philly pitcher.
Game Two: Self-inflicted loss, by performing out of character (extremely poor defense).

I like Oxilon's analogy. Helplessness vs. Anger and Frustration.

I hate helplessness, anger and frustration I can deal with.

Game one said to me: bad team. Game two was "bad game".

I guess its just me.

Game two said much, much more than bad game.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I wonder what effect, if any, this series will have on potential season ticket buyers next year. Not saying it should, but I could see many on the fence buyers being scared off by the last two games.

I hope not. "Stuff happens" in this game. Unfortunately it happened in a bad way to our favorite team. Not because they are bad players and will suck next year. Who knows why a good D and above average bullpen completely falls apart in what is considered the most important game of the year after consistent performance for the 163 games before this important game? Why blame the team for getting no-hit by a guy who was on fire, is thought by many to be the best starter in MLB and is thought to make other managers align their playoff rotation to avoid wasting a top pitcher against him?

The Philadelphia Phillies are good. Tough draw. Most of us knew this and realized that it would be considered a big upset if the Phils lose the series. I hope the REDS get them in the playoffs next year and beat them. And those who were scared off b/c of a PLAYOFF (yes!) series are wishing that hadn't.

[Razor Shines]

One could make the argument that everything went to poop after Cabrera's leadership exited stage left.

Just saying that one could make the argument.

Haha, yeah. Well maybe he shouldn't have gone back to the clubhouse and stayed in the dugout because Janish is about the only one that didn't screw up.

[dfs]

I can't believe I'm crying right now out of frustration over a baseball game. I've NEVER done that, and had no idea I was THAT emotionally invested.

Thank you for writing that.

I was unprepared for the emotional response I had to Jay Bruce losing that ball in the lights. Frankly I'm thrilled that I still care that much about this game.

[GADawg]

itching to comment but I'm afraid I'll annoy Chip R

[forfreelin04]

I hope not. "Stuff happens" in this game. Unfortunately it happened in a bad way to our favorite team. Not because they are bad players and will suck next year. Who knows why a good D and above average bullpen completely falls apart in what is considered the most important game of the year after consistent performance for the 163 games before this important game? Why blame the team for getting no-hit by a guy who was on fire, is thought by many to be the best starter in MLB and is thought to make other managers align their playoff rotation to avoid wasting a top pitcher against him?

The Philadelphia Phillies are good. Tough draw. Most of us knew this and realized that it would be considered a big upset if the Phils lose the series. I hope the REDS get them in the playoffs next year and beat them. And those who were scared off b/c of a PLAYOFF (yes!) series are wishing that hadn't.

What would be amazing is if this spurred a Reds/Phillies Rivalry for the next 5 years. I know its early but the Yankees constantly had the Red Sox for lunch in the postseason. The tables turned.

[Eric_the_Red]

The Bengals were depending on Cedric Benson and a bunch of guys recently released from jail.

That's like the Reds depending on Lastings Milledge and Nyjer Morgan. We have real talent and real hope.

So which 8 teams will be in the playoffs next year?

Things don't always go according to plan. Votto could break a leg. Chapman could regress. Rolen could miss 3/4 of the season. You never know.

I didn't really expect them to make the World Series, or even beat the Phillies, but I sure expected more than the team has shown so far.

[Redsfan320]

itching to comment but I'm afraid I'll annoy Chip R

Either comment on the subject of the thread, or take it private. Thank you.

320

[OnBaseMachine]

I don't think you can chalk this loss up to inexperience. The most experienced player on the roster committed a huge physical error and then made a huge mental error two innings later. It was just a brutal game by the defense. And once again the offense shut it down after scoring a few runs early in the game.

[Eric_the_Red]

I would have preferred getting no-hit by a pitcher named Roy for the 2nd consecutive game than to be beaten by the men in blue.

The Reds were beaten by the men in red, not the men in blue.

[traderumor]

I still don't get the "embarrassed." There is nothing for a fan to be embarrassed about. I'm sure there is a psychological principal that explains it, but a team's performance is not a reflection on someone who roots for them.

And I say that as someone who is deeply disappointed that my favorite team literally gave the game away. But personal embarrassment? I think that is taking fandom a bit overzealously.

[Griffey012]

So which 8 teams will be in the playoffs next year?

Things don't always go according to plan. Votto could break a leg. Chapman could regress. Rolen could miss 3/4 of the season. You never know.

I didn't really expect them to make the World Series, or even beat the Phillies, but I sure expected more than the team has shown so far.

I understand things don't go according to planned, and I am not saying we are a shoo-in, but we are far from a 1 hit wonder. It's not like we have no talented players, dont have an MVP candidate, and don't have 7 quality SP's with a lot of minor league talent.

I, as did all of us expected better ,but it's not the end of the Reds world.

[Razor Shines]

Who said it's over?

The reds said its over during tonight's game.

[Eric_the_Red]

I still don't get the "embarrassed." There is nothing for a fan to be embarrassed about. I'm sure there is a psychological principal that explains it, but a team's performance is not a reflection on someone who roots for them.

And I say that as someone who is deeply disappointed that my favorite team literally gave the game away. But personal embarrassment? I think that is taking fandom a bit overzealously.

There is a big Phillie fan at my work. I'm embarrassed to see him and avoided him the last two days.

[Eric_the_Red]

I understand things don't go according to planned, and I am not saying we are a shoo-in, but we are far from a 1 hit wonder. It's not like we have no talented players, dont have an MVP candidate, and don't have 7 quality SP's with a lot of minor league talent.

I, as did all of us expected better ,but it's not the end of the Reds world.

True, but I remember the 2000 season. It was going to be the magic of the '99 team with the added bonus of the player of the decade being thrown in the mix.

10 years later....

[savafan]

The Reds were beaten by the men in red, not the men in blue.

That's your opinion, I have mine.

[traderumor]

There is a big Phillie fan at my work. I'm embarrassed to see him and avoided him the last two days.With all due respect, I don't understand that. This is supposed to be FUN, not torment. When its no longer fun, I'm done.

I'd add that good sportsmanship would have congratulations in order.

[forfreelin04]

I still don't get the "embarrassed." There is nothing for a fan to be embarrassed about. I'm sure there is a psychological principal that explains it, but a team's performance is not a reflection on someone who roots for them.

And I say that as someone who is deeply disappointed that my favorite team literally gave the game away. But personal embarrassment? I think that is taking fandom a bit overzealously.


I don't stop wearing my Reds cap because of it, but there's something about losing with dignity that's a bit easier on the heart.

[savafan]

Thank you for writing that.

I was unprepared for the emotional response I had to Jay Bruce losing that ball in the lights. Frankly I'm thrilled that I still care that much about this game.

Out of all of the "loves" in my life, the Reds are the only one that's ALWAYS been there.

[OnBaseMachine]

I just keep thinking about how excited we should all be right now. Series tied at 1-1 heading back to Cincinnati with a big game on Sunday night. That was a depressing loss.

[Jpup]

What would be amazing is if this spurred a Reds/Phillies Rivalry for the next 5 years. I know its early but the Yankees constantly had the Red Sox for lunch in the postseason. The tables turned.

There can't be a rivalry because the Phillies can afford better players.

My hat is off to Bronson. He just made himself a bunch of money tonight. He's big time, but the rest of the boys just aren't ready. The Reds are right there with the Braves, Giants, Rays, and Twins. There are good over the long haul for a regular season, but these large payroll teams are built for the playoffs. Sometimes one of the little guys sneak through, but it's not very often. I will be shocked if the Phils and Yanks aren't in the Series again.

I loved everything Rolen did this year, but his back is shot. That was his problem all night and for the 2nd half of the season. Love the guy, but his age is showing. The young guys have a chance to be good again next year, but the idea that the Reds bring all of the same crew back and expect to win a pennant is just not going to happen.

Anyone blaming Dusty for this mess tonight is also out of their mind. He can't catch the ball for them.

[oneupper]

With all due respect, I don't understand that. This is supposed to be FUN, not torment. When its no longer fun, I'm done.

It is FUN. Like a roller coaster, subjecting your body and mind to unnatural forces and turning your intestines inside out. :)

Seriously, it's been a great ride.

[RedFanAlways1966]

So which 8 teams will be in the playoffs next year?

Things don't always go according to plan. Votto could break a leg. Chapman could regress. Rolen could miss 3/4 of the season. You never know.

Come on. Try to be positive. Things can happen to any team. We hope not. I don't even like to mention it.


I didn't really expect them to make the World Series, or even beat the Phillies, but I sure expected more than the team has shown so far.

6 months of fun. Elation when Bruce's drive cleared the CF wall. 162 games that got them where they had not been since Pres. Clinton/V.P. Gore were in their 1st term. 2 games that hurt. Baseball giveth (6 months) and it taketh (3 days so far). It will hurt for a bit, but I will get over it and realize it has been a good year for this fan.

[forfreelin04]

Out of all of the "loves" in my life, the Reds are the only one that's ALWAYS been there.

Redszone too? :)

[savafan]

Redszone too? :)

I consider us a part of the Reds :)

[Griffey012]

True, but I remember the 2000 season. It was going to be the magic of the '99 team with the added bonus of the player of the decade being thrown in the mix.

10 years later....

Looking back on that roster though, that starting pitching staff was nowhere close to what we currently have.

[steig]

The only positives I can pull out from tonights game is that the Reds lost the game rather than the Phillies winning the game. Hopefully the Reds will have a little bit of confidence that if they play their game they can win and beat this team. And secondly, that at the very least the young talent on this team is getting post season experience. All the better for when the Reds hopefully hit there best years.

[LoganBuck]

Watched this game at my local watering hole, with my family. Also several other big Reds fans that I know were there to watch the game.

Can't believe how upset I am about this one. It wouldn't hurt as much, if it weren't the supposed defensive whizzes that did the screw ups. I mean if Johnny Gomes did this I would be mad, but it wouldn't be unexpected. Rolen, Phillips, Bruce, and Heisey yuck.

My son even said that he was embarrassed by my rally cap.

[savafan]

I think the last couple games show what a failure this year's trading deadline was for Jocketty.

[traderumor]

It is FUN. Like a roller coaster, subjecting your body and mind to unnatural forces and turning your intestines inside out. :)

Seriously, it's been a great ride.I agree. Man, that was a brutal game, but I will never be embarrassed over my team's performance. That just doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.

[Eric_the_Red]

6 months of fun. Elation when Bruce's drive cleared the CF wall. 162 games that got them where they had not been since Pres. Clinton/V.P. Gore were in their 1st term. 2 games that hurt. Baseball giveth (6 months) and it taketh (3 days so far). It will hurt for a bit, but I will get over it and realize it has been a good year for this fan.

It has been a good year. But for me, Al Leiter and the Mets from 1999 still hurts. I think this series will still hurt for quite some time. But, I keep coming back for more.

[Jpup]

I agree. Man, that was a brutal game, but I will never be embarrassed over my team's performance. That just doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.

If you aren't embarrassed at how the Reds played tonight than you can't be embarrassed. It feels terrible.

Do I love them any less? No, but to say you aren't a little red faced would be hard for me to believe.

[Eric_the_Red]

With all due respect, I don't understand that. This is supposed to be FUN, not torment. When its no longer fun, I'm done.

I'd add that good sportsmanship would have congratulations in order.

This is a Phillies fan we're talking about. ;)

[Eric_the_Red]

That's your opinion, I have mine.

Take away Utley and the Reds still lose. Take away the hit batters and 4 errors and they win. I'm sorry, but I guess I don't understand what facts you are basing your opinion on.

[Brutus]

I wish there was a rule against blaming umpires for a loss in games where there are 4 errors, 3 HBP, a dropped CS, a walking in of a run with the bases loaded and only one hit in the last four innings.

There definitely should be a rule against that with an exemption only for Cubs fans because that's the kind of thing they do.

[traderumor]

This is a Phillies fan we're talking about. ;)

I know, I know, but be the bigger person. Be a classy Reds fan :)

[Sea Ray]

How huge are those two losses in Atlanta and Philadelphia looking right now? Win those two games and the Reds would be hosting the Braves in the NLDS.

The problem isn't Philadelphia. The way they're playing, Atl would roll them too

[traderumor]

If you aren't embarrassed at how the Reds played tonight than you can't be embarrassed. It feels terrible.

Do I love them any less? No, but to say you aren't a little red faced would be hard for me to believe.Just disappointed at giving away a game. I'll leave personal embarrassment for something I am in control of, like leaving my fly open, asking the fat girl how many months along she is, and other such truly embarrassing moments. :)

[I(heart)Freel]

I think the last couple games show what a failure this year's trading deadline was for Jocketty.

Sorry... that's pretty dumb.

Any ace Walt could have traded for would still have lost to Halladay Wednesday. And no position player would have beat out Phillips, Bruce or Rolen for their starting jobs and therefore would have not prevented tonight's loss.

As it is, we still have Heisey, Stubbs, Alonso, Maloney and Wood in the system.

I'd rather have them and those two stinging losses than not have them... and still have two stinging losses.

[forfreelin04]

Just disappointed at giving away a game. I'll leave personal embarrassment for something I am in control of, like leaving my fly open, asking the fat girl how many months along she is, and other such truly embarrassing moments. :)

You mean you supposed to leave your fly closed?

Damn

[savafan]

Sorry... that's pretty dumb.

Any ace Walt could have traded for would still have lost to Halladay Wednesday. And no position player would have beat out Phillips, Bruce or Rolen for their starting jobs and therefore would have not prevented tonight's loss.

As it is, we still have Heisey, Stubbs, Alonso, Maloney and Wood in the system.

I'd rather have them and those two stinging losses than not have them... and still have two stinging losses.

That's all well and good, and we held onto our prospects for the last 15 years also until they either failed miserably or priced themselves out of the budget. How did that work for us? An ace changes the mentality of the team going into a game. Cliff Lee, for example, versus Roy Halladay gives a significantly different mental edge than Edinson Volquez versus Halladay.

Playoff baseball for the Reds has a tendency to be sporadic throughout the years, and there's no guarantee that these prospects have or maintain success in coming seasons, or that the rest of the division doesn't improve. You can't take the present for granted to hope for a brighter future. I've learned that lesson in life.

[oneupper]

Just disappointed at giving away a game. I'll leave personal embarrassment for something I am in control of, like leaving my fly open, asking the fat girl how many months along she is, and other such truly embarrassing moments. :)

I'm cracking up because I can still visualize saying "So when is the baby due?" (And more than once!). Talk about multiple errors.

[savafan]

Take away Utley and the Reds still lose. Take away the hit batters and 4 errors and they win. I'm sorry, but I guess I don't understand what facts you are basing your opinion on.

No, take away Utley and it's a 4-0 game. There's no guarantee that the meltdown that started with the phantom hit by pitch (or what I will refer to now as the other no hitter) would have progressed had that not occurred.

[Cedric]

Chase Utley was smiling at 1b after his bs play. He better be ready for a pitch to his ear hole Sunday.

[Homer Bailey]

2nd most upset I've ever been over a sporting event.12/1/07 is the only thing that trumps it.

[Homer Bailey]

I wish there was a rule against blaming umpires for a loss in games where there are 4 errors, 3 HBP, a dropped CS, a walking in of a run with the bases loaded and only one hit in the last four innings.

There definitely should be a rule against that with an exemption only for Cubs fans because that's the kind of thing they do.


2 of the errors never happen if it weren't for two awful calls. Hate blaming umps, but with replay, I truly don't think we lose this game.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

No. Much worse to play 162 at a high level and not even make it...any Reds fan who was alive in 1999 should know :)

Plus, while I think the Pads have a bright future as well, I like ours better. As a team, we probably overachieved a tad this year and we caught the absolute worst opponent for a young team in the playoffs. I view this series as taking our lumps...I'm confident the Reds can get back here.

Not sure we caught the wrong opponent - the phillies were certainly avoidable in round 1. It sure would be nice going to Atlanta up 2-0 or even 1-1 while Philly and SF killed each other.

[reds44]

This is the worst I've felt over a sporting event in a long long long long time. I'm not embarassed though, I'm not even mad.

I feel like I just watched a family member screw up while playing. I love those guys. It sucks. It just sucks.

[Cedric]

This is the worst I've felt over a sporting event in a long long long long time. I'm not embarassed though, I'm not even mad.

I feel like I just watched a family member screw up while playing. I love those guys. It sucks. It just sucks.

I was at a wedding and didn't get to see one pitch. I have about 400 texts of people heartbroken and since I didn't see it I can't feel it like you all can.

I'm just hoping people realize this could very well help Stubbs, Bruce, and Votto. Those guys won't let this define them.

[Brutus]

2 of the errors never happen if it weren't for two awful calls. Hate blaming umps, but with replay, I truly don't think we lose this game.

One of the things people are forgetting, other than the fact there were no conclusive replays over either blown call, is the force play at second that appeared to be missed wouldn't have even been close if Rolen had not bobbled and double-clutched to begin with. If he fields it cleanly and goes in one motion, it doesn't give the umpire a chance to make that call.

The defense spit the bit tonight. 4 errors and multiple bobbles and plays that were fielded roughly. And I still didn't see a single conclusive angle on either so-called blown call. I feel, like the rest of you, that the calls were missed, but I saw nothing to feel strongly enough to be outraged about. And even if I did, I just don't think anyone has the right to blame umpiring with so many botched defensive plays. Major League teams don't earn the right to look at anyone but themselves if they can't field the ball cleanly on that many plays in a given night.

[Cedric]

One of the things people are forgetting, other than the fact there were no conclusive replays over either blown call, is the force play at second that appeared to be missed wouldn't have even been close if Rolen had not bobbled and double-clutched to begin with. If he fields it cleanly and goes in one motion, it doesn't give the umpire a chance to make that call.

The defense spit the bit tonight. 4 errors and multiple bobbles and plays that were fielded roughly. And I still didn't see a single conclusive angle on either so-called blown call. I feel, like the rest of you, that the calls were missed, but I saw nothing to feel strongly enough to be outraged about. And even if I did, I just don't think anyone has the right to blame umpiring with so many botched defensive plays. Major League teams don't earn the right to look at anyone but themselves if they can't field the ball cleanly on that many plays in a given night.

Who cares if he put the baseball in his mouth before getting the guy out? I'm half joking.

The guy was out and the Ump blew it.

[reds44]

I was at a wedding and didn't get to see one pitch. I have about 400 texts of people heartbroken and since I didn't see it I can't feel it like you all can.

I'm just hoping people realize this could very well help Stubbs, Bruce, and Votto. Those guys won't let this define them.
I don't see how it helps them. They can learn from this and get better, yes, but it's not like they are better for this happening than us winning.

There's really no good that comes out of this.

[Reds Fanatic]

2nd most upset I've ever been over a sporting event.12/1/07 is the only thing that trumps it.
The only time I ever felt worse was the Super Bowl the Bengals lost at the last minute to the 49ers.

[reds44]

And there's no doubt Utley was out at second. None. TBS never gave you a good angle, but he was out.

[reds44]

The worst part about the HBP was that it came on an 0-2 pitch. Utley had zero chance of reaching base at that point.

I don't see how you get drilled by 100 MPH gas and have it no phase you. That's impossible.

[savafan]

And there's no doubt Utley was out at second. None. TBS never gave you a good angle, but he was out.

I was watching a streaming internet feed in Spanish... yeah... anyway, I had conclusive angles of both plays on that feed, and Utley DIDN'T get hit and WAS out at 2nd.

[reds44]

I was watching a streaming internet feed in Spanish... yeah... anyway, I had conclusive angles of both plays on that feed, and Utley DIDN'T get hit and WAS out at 2nd.
Utley was so convinced he was out he didn't try to beat the play, he went in with a takeout slide.

[Brutus]

Who cares if he put the baseball in his mouth before getting the guy out? I'm half joking.

The guy was out and the Ump blew it.

There's not a single replay that shows he was out with anything more than a hunch. Truth of the matter is, the umpire had 10 times the better view we had even with the benefit of replay.

And it absolutely does matter what he did. If he fields it cleanly, which he should have on a routine play, it's at worst a force play and possibly a 5-4-3 ball.

[OnBaseMachine]

I don't see how you get drilled by 100 MPH gas and have it no phase you. That's impossible.

Question: Chase, where did the ball hit you? "It was pretty close. I'm not sure."

http://twitter.com/MissEnquirer

asked where he got hit by chapman's 102-mph fastball, utley said, "it was pretty close.'' oops, another E on the umps.

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

[Reds Fanatic]

I am amazed I read on ESPN how the ball clearly hit Utley. Either they have better eyesight than we all do or their bias has blinded them.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

For as great as BP hit tonight, he was pretty bad with the glove.

I don't think I've seen a worse game from him defensively.

[reds44]

Question: Chase, where did the ball hit you? "It was pretty close. I'm not sure."

http://twitter.com/MissEnquirer

asked where he got hit by chapman's 102-mph fastball, utley said, "it was pretty close.'' oops, another E on the umps.

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman
OH MY GOD. IT WAS PRETTY CLOSE, I'M NOT SURE? HE THROWS 105, HOW ARE YOU NOT SURE IF IT HITS YOU OR NOT?

Oh. My. God. It didn't hit him. Oh my God.

[OnBaseMachine]

OH MY GOD. IT WAS PRETTY CLOSE, I'M NOT SURE? HE THROWS 105, HOW ARE YOU NOT SURE IF IT HITS YOU OR NOT?

Oh. My. God. It didn't hit him. Oh my God.

That's Utley's way of saying the ball didn't hit him. He's not going to come right out and say it didn't hit him.

[Reds Fanatic]

Question: Chase, where did the ball hit you? "It was pretty close. I'm not sure."

http://twitter.com/MissEnquirer

asked where he got hit by chapman's 102-mph fastball, utley said, "it was pretty close.'' oops, another E on the umps.

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

I know it is probably wrong to say but I hope sometime next summer Utley gets hit by Chapman then he will know for sure what it feels like to get hit by a 102 MPH pitch.

[Cedric]

I know it is probably wrong to say but I hope sometime next summer Utley gets hit by Chapman then he will know for sure what it feels like to get hit by a 102 MPH pitch.

I would hit him first at bat Sunday.

Call me a sore loser all you want. I would drill him.

[reds44]

Don't be mad at Utley for that. He was down 0-2 and he found a way to get on base. More props to him for that.

Have Chapman dome rock whoever was the ump behind the plate with some 102 MPH cheese.

[George Anderson]

Have Chapman dome rock whoever was the ump behind the plate with some 102 MPH cheese.

Pure class !:rolleyes:

[reds44]

Pure class !:rolleyes:
Yeah no part of me cares right now.

[dsmith421]

It really really sucks but I don't think we're going to have to wait long to get back in the playoffs.

That's what I thought in 1999. We're a small market club...it may not ever happen again.

[top6]

2nd most upset I've ever been over a sporting event.12/1/07 is the only thing that trumps it.

I had to look that up, but I got to tell you I think a few years from now you will realize that 12/1/07 was much, much worse by many degrees. Only a national championship will make that pain go away; sorry to say. (And I say that having lived through some pretty horrifying OSU losses in the 90s.)

Let's be honest, this Reds team was NOT on the verge of playing in the World Series (unlike that Pitt team). They are - at best - the 6th best team in the playoffs. And as far as I see it, they are really only in these playoffs because of an epic choke job during the regular season by a team that was probably better. So my expectations were low.

All that said, that was BRUTAL.

EDITED TO ADD: Meant to say "unlike that WVU team." Wow, I just made it worse.

[savafan]

Pure class !:rolleyes:

When I used to pitch, I'd throw at people all the time. It used to be part of the game. That was MY plate. Hell, I even hit my sister in the shoulder with my first pitch at a family reunion one year. :D

[reds44]

Is 12/1/07 the Pitt vs WVU game?

[dsmith421]

Maybe they will show up since they seem to stay away when they do well.

Great riposte. Do us a favor and go away.

[George Anderson]

When I used to pitch, I'd throw at people all the time. It used to be part of the game. That was MY plate. Hell, I even hit my sister in the shoulder with my first pitch at a family reunion one year. :D

Throwing a softball at your sister at a family softball game is one thing. Throwing a 102 MPH fastball at an umpire because you disagreed with a call is criminal.

[top6]

When I used to pitch, I'd throw at people all the time. It used to be part of the game. That was MY plate. Hell, I even hit my sister in the shoulder with my first pitch at a family reunion one year. :D

Well Reds44 was suggesting throwing at the ump, and for some reason disavowing throwing at Utley.

Chapman should and probably will throw at Utley at some point; which is part of the game and probably the inevitable consequence of the BS act he probably pulled.

The ump made a mistake.

But I don't think you were saying you would ever throw at an ump.

[dsmith421]

That's your opinion, I have mine.

Your opinion is wrong.

[savafan]

Throwing a softball at your sister at a family softball game is one thing. Throwing a 102 MPH fastball at an umpire because you disagreed with a call is criminal.

It wasn't a softball, it was a baseball, and if I had to guess, I'd say it was probably about 75-80 mph because I was being kind.

[reds44]

Oh yes because I was being so serious about throwing 102 at an umpires head.

105 in the ribs would be more enjoyable.

[savafan]

But I don't think you were saying you would ever throw at an ump.

Not unless he had a bat in his hand.

[savafan]

Your opinion is wrong.

Impossible, it's an opinion...

[OnBaseMachine]

This loss is going to hurt for a long time. If the Reds had won that game, I would have liked their chances to win this series with the next two games being in Cincy. And I think the Reds would match up fairly well with the Giants in the NLCS. I'm heartbroken.

[top6]

Not unless he had a bat in his hand.

Nice.

[dsmith421]

I'm just hoping people realize this could very well help Stubbs, Bruce, and Votto. Those guys won't let this define them.

Yeah, they'll probably mash in the playoffs for New York, Boston, and Philly.

[top6]

Yeah, they'll probably mash in the playoffs for New York, Boston, and Philly.

This.

[dsmith421]

Impossible, it's an opinion...

That one is objectively wrong. The umps cost the Reds nothing tonight.

[reds44]

That one is objectively wrong. The umps cost the Reds nothing tonight.
That's not even close to being true.

[Brutus]

That's not even close to being true.

It's a lot more true than saying otherwise.

4 errors / 3 HBP compared to two subjectively bad calls.

There's not much to corroborate the opinion. That's for sure.

[savafan]

That one is objectively wrong. The umps cost the Reds nothing tonight.

Were you watching Lifetime?

[dsmith421]

I would hit him first at bat Sunday.

Call me a sore loser all you want. I would drill him.

Agreed. Light him up.

[savafan]

It's a lot more true than saying otherwise.

4 errors / 3 HBP compared to two subjectively bad calls.

There's not much to corroborate the opinion. That's for sure.

My God... I wish you saw the replays on the feed I was watching.

[reds44]

It's a lot more true than saying otherwise.

4 errors / 3 HBP compared to two subjectively bad calls.

There's not much to corroborate the opinion. That's for sure.
Uh so the Reds and umps can't hurt the Reds?

I didn't realize you screwing up means the ump can't screw up too. That's news to me.

If the game is umped properly it's most likely 2 outs nobody on in the 7th.

[dsmith421]

Were you watching Lifetime?

When your three best fielders make at best six miscues, you deserve to lose, period. Regardless of the umpires. If Bruce and Rolen alone don't choke, the Reds win.

[savafan]

If the game is umped properly it's most likely 2 outs nobody on in the 7th.

We're apparently the only two who get this...

[Brutus]

My God... I wish you saw the replays on the feed I was watching.

The fact you needed 8 angles to prove a point should say it all right there. It took fans 3-4 looks, in some cases from several camera angles, to be certain a play in full speed was a bad call.

Yep, point exactly. We don't need replays to know the Reds blew their lead because of several defensive miscues. Don't need slow-motion replays from all over the stadium to know that.

[savafan]

When your three best fielders make at best six miscues, you deserve to lose, period. Regardless of the umpires. If Bruce and Rolen alone don't choke, the Reds win.

If the umps hadn't given the Phillies a free base runner and an extra out, the miscues either don't happen or don't matter.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Agreed. Light him up.

I would hit him and then drill him again as he leads off first.

Then hit him again the next time he's up. And then throw over to first really easy like 20 times in a row. Then I'd throw over hard and hit him again.

Then, maybe I pitch to him.

Maybe.

[reds44]

The fact you needed 8 angles to prove a point should say it all right there. It took fans 3-4 looks, in some cases from several camera angles, to be certain a play in full speed was a bad call.

Yep, point exactly. We don't need replays to know the Reds blew their lead because of several defensive miscues. Don't need slow-motion replays from all over the stadium to know that.
What are you even talking about anymore? They made the wrong call. Period. Two of them, in fact.

And no, I knew that the ball didn't hit Utley's bat and he was out at second right away. It took one look.

[dsmith421]

Yep, point exactly. We don't need replays to know the Reds blew their lead because of several defensive miscues. Don't need slow-motion replays from all over the stadium to know that.

If Jay Bruce doesn't vomit all over himself, the Reds lead 4-3 going to the 8th. It's that simple. He choked. A lot of his teammates choked before that, but he choked loudest, last, and worst.

[reds44]

If Jay Bruce doesn't vomit all over himself, the Reds lead 4-3 going to the 8th. It's that simple. He choked. A lot of his teammates choked before that, but he choked loudest, last, and worst.
How exactly is losing the ball in the lights choking?

Is he supposed to man up and move the light tower?

[Cedric]

Yeah, they'll probably mash in the playoffs for New York, Boston, and Philly.

I'm emotional and frustrated right now also.. I don't think Bruce and Votto are going anywhere though.

I'm not going to completely lose faith because of one bad game.

[Matt700wlw]

I also have tickets to Sunday's game. This is what I've waited my whole life for, I should be so excited right now, but instead, I feel nothing.

You're going to go...cheer your ass off, and have a blast. You're going to bring home a winner, so I can use my ticket on Monday.

Good things have happened when I go.

:)

[savafan]

The fact you needed 8 angles to prove a point should say it all right there. It took fans 3-4 looks, in some cases from several camera angles, to be certain a play in full speed was a bad call.

Yep, point exactly. We don't need replays to know the Reds blew their lead because of several defensive miscues. Don't need slow-motion replays from all over the stadium to know that.

The Spanish station showed the replay from 2 angles, and it wasn't even close, the ball didn't hit Utley, it hit his bat. Also, because of the way he slid, going in to break up a double play, his foot never touched the bag before the ball got there. Didn't need 8 angles to show that, but even if I did, would the fact that it took 8 angles make it any less true?

[George Anderson]

If the umps hadn't given the Phillies a free base runner and an extra out, the miscues either don't happen or don't matter.

Ask yourself this question. Without the benefit of replay, are you as an umpire with the angle that he had going to be able to adequately judge if the ball hit the batters hands or not??

[Brutus]

Uh so the Reds and umps can't hurt the Reds?

I didn't realize you screwing up means the ump can't screw up too. That's news to me.

If the game is umped properly it's most likely 2 outs nobody on in the 7th.

So what? The umpires make mistakes in every single game of the year. They humans. I've never seen a single sporting event in my entire life where an official didn't make a mistake. Have you? Have you ever seen a sport, a single game where there was absolutely no mistakes by an umpire/refereee/official?

But in this case, the Reds made not one or two (arguably) bad errors, but at least four or five. They, not the officials, are to blame for this.

If the Reds don't make mistakes, or at least very few mistakes, they win this game and overcome any bad calls. They didn't do that. Not only did they make a few mistakes, they made additional mistakes and compounded their worst mistakes with even more.

And you want to blame the umpires for making any bad calls? That's irrational to expect the umpires to be perfect but then excuse 4 errors on your favorite team and instead blame the umpires for not having perfection.

Wow.

[reds44]

The Spanish station showed the replay from 2 angles, and it wasn't even close, the ball didn't hit Utley, it hit his bat. Also, because of the way he slid, going in to break up a double play, his foot never touched the bag before the ball got there. Didn't need 8 angles to show that, but even if I did, would the fact that it took 8 angles make it any less true?
Nope.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

He didn't touch 3rd either.

Utley didn't deserve any base he acquired.

This, of course, doesn't change the fact that the Reds choked in a ginormous kind of way.

[reds44]

So what? The umpires make mistakes in every single game of the year. They humans. I've never seen a single sporting event in my entire life where an official didn't make a mistake. Have you? Have you ever seen a sport, a single game where there was absolutely no mistakes by an umpire/refereee/official?

But in this case, the Reds made not one or two (arguably) bad errors, but at least four or five. They, not the officials, are to blame for this.

If the Reds don't make mistakes, or at least very few mistakes, they win this game and overcome any bad calls. They didn't do that. Not only did they make a few mistakes, they made additional mistakes and compounded their worst mistakes with even more.

And you want to blame the umpires for making any bad calls? That's irrational to expect the umpires to be perfect but then excuse 4 errors on your favorite team and instead blame the umpires for not having perfection.

Wow.
Where have I excused the Reds errors? I don't really blame Bruce for losing the ball in the lights, but other than that they were all horrible.

Fact of the matter is if you make the right call on Utley none of that happens. None of it.

[George Anderson]

The Spanish station showed the replay from 2 angles, and it wasn't even close, the ball didn't hit Utley, it hit his bat. Also, because of the way he slid, going in to break up a double play, his foot never touched the bag before the ball got there. Didn't need 8 angles to show that, but even if I did, would the fact that it took 8 angles make it any less true?

That cannot be true.

If the ball hit the bat then the umpire and catcher would have heard it.

[savafan]

Utley doesn't even know where on his body a 102 mph fastball hit him. I've been hit by a 55 mph knuckleball, and I certainly knew where it got me thanks to the bruise.

[Brutus]

What are you even talking about anymore? They made the wrong call. Period. Two of them, in fact.

And no, I knew that the ball didn't hit Utley's bat and he was out at second right away. It took one look.

This is honestly what I'm taking from your viewpoint:

Umpires: shouldn't make mistakes, if they do, it's their fault for a loss

Players: can make a bunch of mistakes and it's only their faults if the umpires are perfect

That's honestly what this is coming across as.

The fact that the Reds made at least 6-7 physical miscues should absolutely trump a couple mistakes by the umpires.

[reds44]

He didn't touch 3rd either.

Utley didn't deserve any base he acquired.

This, of course, doesn't change the fact that the Reds choked in a ginormous kind of way.
LET THIS SINK IN FOR A MOMENT.

He shouldn't have been on 1st.
He was out at second.
And he didn't touch third.

He literally rounded the bases without deserving any of them.

[Reds Fanatic]

If Jay Bruce doesn't vomit all over himself, the Reds lead 4-3 going to the 8th. It's that simple. He choked. A lot of his teammates choked before that, but he choked loudest, last, and worst.

IF Utley doesn't reach on the blown HBP call the inning is over before the ball even goes to Bruce. Losing balls in the lights hurts but there is not much you can do about it. The fact that is has happened 3 postseasons in a row in that same park shows there must be some angles where a lot of fielders have trouble with those lights.

[reds44]

This is honestly what I'm taking from your viewpoint:

Umpires: shouldn't make mistakes, if they do, it's their fault for a loss

Players: can make a bunch of mistakes and it's only their faults if the umpires are perfect

That's honestly what this is coming across as.

The fact that the Reds made at least 6-7 physical miscues should absolutely trump a couple mistakes by the umpires.
THERE'S NO REASON FOR THEM TO MAKE MISTAKES. PUT IN REPLAY.

It's not hard.

[George Anderson]

He didn't touch 3rd either.

.

I saw one replay and it was far from conclusive,

Did you see another replay with a different angle?

[Brutus]

THERE'S NO REASON FOR THEM TO MAKE MISTAKES. PUT IN REPLAY.

It's not hard.

There's absolutely no replay on earth that conclusively could have overturned that Utley hit by pitch. It was (at best) inconclusive.

You're acting like replay would have 100% definitively solved this. It wouldn't have and you said yourself earlier in the thread there wasn't a conclusive angle.

Besides, it's irrelevant. It's not the umpires' faults there isn't instant replay. That's a league decision in conjunction with the owners, players and umpires.

I don't see what not having replay has to do with whether or not the umpires are to blame for this loss.

[savafan]

Q. Dusty said he didn't think Utley was hit by that pitch. What did you see?

CHARLIE MANUEL: Yeah, he got hit. Yeah, he was hit, yeah. He got hit.

Q. How bad was he hit?

CHARLIE MANUEL: Huh?

Q. How bad was he hit?

CHARLIE MANUEL: Bad enough to take his base. So did Francisco, so did Chooch. Chooch might have gotten hit the worst.



Q. Where'd the ball hit you in the 7th inning?

CHASE UTLEY: It was pretty close. At first I thought it was going to hit me in my head. Fortunately, it didn't. And he throws so hard. I felt like I thought it hit me, so I put my head down and I ran to first.

Q. Did it hit you?

CHASE UTLEY: I'm not sure.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I saw one replay and it was far from conclusive,

Did you see another replay with a different angle?

I'm assuming he didn't because in a game where every damn thing imaginable could go against the Reds, it would make no sense that he actually earned one of the three bases he acquired in his fraudulant route around the diamond.

[dsmith421]

Utley cheated, big deal. He won.

[Brutus]

IF Utley doesn't reach on the blown HBP call the inning is over before the ball even goes to Bruce. Losing balls in the lights hurts but there is not much you can do about it. The fact that is has happened 3 postseasons in a row in that same park shows there must be some angles where a lot of fielders have trouble with those lights.

The Reds made way too many errors to focus on what the umpires may or may not have gotten right.

IF, IF, IF. You keep saying "IF" the umpires had done this or that. They didn't. They may have made one or two mistakes (and even that is not definitive). But we do know the Reds did commit at least 4 errors and arguably 1-2 additional miscues that were not errors but caused bases to be gained.

Phillips dropped what may have been a caught stealing. Rolen bobbled the force attempt that wound up being called safe. Never mind the Rolen, Phillips & Bruce errors and then the additional Phillips error on that play.

But you want to focus on one or two mistakes? Geez. I'm amazed how it's not OK for the umpires to make a few mistakes, but it's their faults despite the team making SEVERAL mistakes.

[dsmith421]

That's like the Reds depending on Lastings Milledge and Nyjer Morgan. We have real talent and real hope.

I'm old enough to remember 1999, and that was my theory in the offseason. Even before we traded for the best player alive.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

The Reds made way too many errors to focus on what the umpires may or may not have gotten right.

This.

We blew it.

[dsmith421]

Brutus, I'm with you. It's like people blaming delay of game penalties on the play clock and its incessant ticking.

[savafan]

The Reds made way too many errors to focus on what the umpires may or may not have gotten right.



I know they're professionals, but do you think that just maybe the umpires mistakes got into their heads and took them off their game a little bit? The human in me thinks it's possible, but I can't back it up with stats or replays so it probably isn't true.

[reds44]

The Reds made a lot of errors and the umps made a couple errors.

This isn't hard.

[Brutus]

Brutus, I'm with you. It's like people blaming delay of game penalties on the play clock and its incessant ticking.

LOL.

OK that really made me laugh. I needed that.

[Reds Fanatic]

Trust me I am not putting the whole loss on that bad call. I am just saying that inning is a lot different without the call. Obviously the 2 big errors the inning before gave away 2 runs and probably cut an inning off Arroyo's start. The game was going downhill from that point on. Losing the ball in the lights stinks but there much you can do about that. The worst part of that play was when they got the ball in Phillips dropped the relay which allowed a 2nd run to score.

[Brutus]

I know they're professionals, but do you think that just maybe the umpires mistakes got into their heads and took them off their game a little bit? The human in me thinks it's possible, but I can't back it up with stats or replays so it probably isn't true.

That's absolutely possible. But it's still their faults if they let that happen. Every player knows you have to block those mistakes out. If you don't, it's your own fault.

Unfortunately, I don't think Bruce's mistake was a byproduct of the umpires' mistake, he just simply lost the ball. It happens, but unfortunately for the Reds it happened at the worst possible time. Phillips compounded it by dropping the ball, though in fairness, I thought that second run was going to score anyhow--so it may not have mattered.

Absolutely, though, I think the mistakes could have affected their mindset. But every game is going to feature a mistake or two by an umpire. They make mistakes just like the players do. If you let those mistakes consume you, in my estimation, you deserve to lose.

[dsmith421]

It's an understandable physical error. But it's the playoffs. You can't make understandable physical errors. And the Reds are done because of it. Jay will someday make up for it, he'll be awesome and crush someone in the playoffs and all the Red Sox fans will applaud him to the skies.

[reds44]

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/10/errors_sting_big_time_down_0-2.html



It was in the lights the whole time. I tried to stick with it to see if it would come out. It never did. It's pretty helpless. It's embarrassing. I take a lot of pride in my defense. There's really nothing I can do about it. I wish for my team more than anything that it didn't go into the lights or that it came out and I could have caught it. It didn't happen."

:(

[savafan]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5802&d=1286598544

[Brutus]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5802&d=1286598544

Great find. That's an excellent shot and it's the first I feel comfortable in saying he was out.

I still feel the same way as before, but at least there was finally a shot I feel better about :0

[George Anderson]

Nice slide...Is the ball in Phillips mitt?

[savafan]

Great find.

Gotta give props to the Sundeck for this one. ;)

[Brutus]

Nice slide...Is the ball in Phillips mitt?

I looked for that to. If you slide the picture over a bit, you can see the white and the seams through the holes of his glove.

[RBA]

I knew he was out when I seen it live on TV. Just take the next three and I maybe able to forget this. ;)

[VR]

This game should forever end the questioning of the existence of clutch.....or lack thereof.

Arroyo and Wood have really been amazing this series. Everyone else....not so much. (Cordero gets a pass)

[Johnny Footstool]

This game should forever end the questioning of the existence of clutch.....or lack thereof.

Arroyo and Wood have really been amazing this series. Everyone else....not so much. (Cordero gets a pass)

No, it verifies the existence of choke, which we already knew was a real thing.

[Brutus]

No, it verifies the existence of choke, which we already knew was a real thing.

If choke exists, and clearly it's alive and well, then clutch has to exist too.

[dsmith421]

If choke exists, and clearly it's alive and well, then clutch has to exist too.

Not necessarily. My theory has always been that "clutch" guys merely replicate their usual production in tough spots while normal mortals (e.g., Jay Bruce) choke.

[reds44]

So who just saw Freddy Sanchez get hit on the hand?

Yeah. I'm sure Utley got drilled. Not.

[George Anderson]

http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5802&d=1286598544

Hey I guess this is a easy call to make afterall.

That is if you are looking at the play frozen in a picture and at an angle the umpire cannot see. ;)

[Phhhl]

I am not ashamed of this team. They played like dog dirt last night and made more mistakes than Dan Quayle at a spelling bee. But, this team is young at its' core. The best of the core players are young, and the best of the veterans are at least servicable athletically. And, there is exceptional talent in the upper minor leagues.

Two nights of horrific futility pales by comparison to what this collection of players has accomplished in 2010. I am still stoked about Sunday night, and the possibility of doing something historic with what is left of the 2010 NLDS. And, if that doesn't work out, I am going to be counting the days until this unit of champions report to camp in Arizona for the 2011 season, loaded with the experience it has gained throughout the dramatic course of this season and energized by the gifted personnel we happen to have on this roster right now.

Shame on anyone who claims to be a Reds fan for giving up on the spirit of this franchise based on the first two games of this series. If you cry, take a seat in the corner. This storied franchise has been here 100 years before you and I were born, and it will still be winning championships long after you and I are dead. Quit acting like it has failed posterity every time it has failed you personally.

Enjoy what we have here or reject life. The Cincinnat Reds are priceless.

[Homer Bailey]

If Jay Bruce doesn't vomit all over himself, the Reds lead 4-3 going to the 8th. It's that simple. He choked. A lot of his teammates choked before that, but he choked loudest, last, and worst.

I won't be upset if I never read a post like this again.

Edit: my gut reaction was that my post was too harsh, but after re-reading, I'm even more disgusted with the quoted post.

[Matt700wlw]

Note to Utley....if you get hit by Chapman, you'll know.

However, like Jeter, you got on base, which was the purpose. Nice job.

[Slyder]

Please be warned foul language. And yes Im trying to be the enternal optimist!:D




YouTube - ANIMAL HOUSE Bluto's Germans Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zc0BI7T1LA)

[corkedbat]

I won't be upset if I never read a post like this again.

Edit: my gut reaction was that my post was too harsh, but after re-reading, I'm even more disgusted with the quoted post.

Gotta agree. Balls get lost in the lights , it happens to all OFers and just can't be helped. Of all the errors, Bruce's may have been the most inoportune, but hardly the most egregious. Brandon's bobble of the relay throw was just as costly and less excuseable than JB's error.

Hey it sux, but time to get over it and move on.

[Captain Hook]

Good because I am.

[Ron Madden]

I think I'm more disappointed than anything else. :(

[The Operator]

This game just made me sad.

The Halladay game was a freakshow and we were at the wrong place and the wrong time. It sucked but it happened.

Tonight was just a heartbreaker. I thought once we went ahead 4-0 we'd keep putting up runs and head back to Cincy all tied up. It wasn't to be.

My girlfriend is used to me being grumpy and unpleasant after big letdown losses. Tonight, I was just drained and heartbroken. She actually said she preferred my grumpy, obnoxious reactions over what I was like tonight. I'm so down right now.

[Matt700wlw]

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/mo.html?an=JOE-LIS

My former boss, and my friend nails it...

[The Operator]

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/mo.html?an=JOE-LIS

My former boss, and my friend nails it...Man, that covered about as good as it gets.

I'm really not taking this one well. I still get haunted by Carson Palmer going down in the 2005 AFC playoffs, and I have a feeling this game is going to haunt me for a while too. Hopefully The Reds have a nice multi-year run in them and we can all forget about this soon enough. But it's still going to hurt for no less than a year, unless we somehow pull off a miracle comeback in this series.

[mth123]

The Reds can't control what the umpires do.

Fact is, the 2B and the 3B both had opportuniies to make plays in the 5th and hold the opponent scoreless and the Reds didn't make the plays and the Phillies scored 2 runs.

In the 6th the staff walked a guy who stole second and would have been out had the 2B gotten over to cover in time and held on to the throw. Then they hit two others with pitches and then another is walked for another gift run.

In the 7th the 3B had a chance to make a play to record an out and keep a runner off base and made an iffy choice to go to 2B with the throw regardless of the call. The RF didn't make the catch and the 2B allowed added damage by dropping the relay.

The Reds played losing baseball. The umpires may have missed a few calls, but I didn't see anyone arguing on the HBP and its not the umps job to make a call if the runner misses a base unless the Reds appeal. The Reds didn't. I buy the blown call on the play at 2B, but the fact is the Reds had this game in hand and should have won easiliy in spite of the umps by simply playing competent baseball. They didn't really even need to do anything all that special to win. Just routine stuff that wasn't executed. Can't see how anyone can blame the umps.

[Roy Tucker]

Bah. I don't feel any better about it this morning.

I don't think I'm even going to read the paper about it. Once through that game was enough.

Let's get 'em tomorrow and make this thing at least interesting. 0-2 is daunting, but not impossible. This team has always bounced back when things looked blackest. And its midnight in a coal mine with the lights off right now.

[SunDeck]

It was really the suck watching last night, for sure. Was I embarrassed? No. I'm not the one out there missing fly balls. I wasn't even that disappointed- this team is in its first year back in the postseason and there's no sign that anyone's going to dismantle their bright future. So, while I hated watching a good baseball team play like a bunch of deer in the headlights, it just really bothered me more that I was watching terrible baseball. I think they'll be right back here next year, and this game will be a learning moment for them. Or more like ten or twelve learning moments.

[RFS62]

Bah. I don't feel any better about it this morning.

I don't think I'm even going to read the paper about it. Once through that game was enough.

Let's get 'em tomorrow and make this thing at least interesting. 0-2 is daunting, but not impossible. This team has always bounced back when things looked blackest. And its midnight in a coal mine with the lights off right now.


It was really the suck watching last night, for sure. Was I embarrassed? No. I'm not the one out there missing fly balls. I wasn't even that disappointed- this team is in its first year back in the postseason and there's no sign that anyone's going to dismantle their bright future. So, while I hated watching a good baseball team play like a bunch of deer in the headlights, it just really bothered me more that I was watching terrible baseball. I think they'll be right back here next year, and this game will be a learning moment for them. Or more like ten or twelve learning moments.


Good stuff.

I tried to read this whole thread, but after page 5 I'm done.

There is no way on earth that I will let these two games ruin this season for me. Those of you who are giving that kind of power to two games against the best team in baseball, on the road, one of which was a historic pitching performance..... well, I feel much more sorry for you than I do for the Reds.

Did anyone question their effort level? I think not.

Once again they came out playing hard after a devestating loss.

We all handle our dissappointment in our own way, I guess. And that's totally appropriate. It's not a reflection of your "fanhood".

Baseball is a funny game. Am I embarrassed about our miscues last night? Yes, absolutely. But you express your anger or embarrassment and get over it.

Do I define this team by those miscues? Hell no.

[jojo]

With all due respect, I don't understand that. This is supposed to be FUN, not torment. When its no longer fun, I'm done.

I'd add that good sportsmanship would have congratulations in order.

Exactly.

Game 1 was history. Hat's off.

Game 2 was a huge disappointment, first because they lost but largely too because it just wasn't a very good game with no drama to make it live in our consciousness for years to come regardless of the outcome. We saw nothing of the personality of the 2010 team that we'll remember this team for...

The Reds are underdogs in this one but it's starting to shape up like the golden narrative isn't likely.

But Dusty using Rhodes in a high leverage situation in the 6th! Who is this man we've all called Dusty?

[Redhook]

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/mo.html?an=JOE-LIS

My former boss, and my friend nails it...

Well said by Mo.

[Sea Ray]

This loss is going to hurt for a long time. If the Reds had won that game, I would have liked their chances to win this series with the next two games being in Cincy. And I think the Reds would match up fairly well with the Giants in the NLCS. I'm heartbroken.

Don't beat yourself up over that hypothetical. The Reds are proving that they don't belong on a field with the Phillies. In fact they can't handle the spotlight of the post season. They never had any chance to win. I'm just disappointed they're not giving a better showing.

[Sea Ray]

Well said by Mo.

I disagree. Anyone who deals with it in that way needs to get a life. Sane people don't let sports control their lives like that. We had no part in those screwups. We can't let it torture us.

Our Reds are clearly not yet ready for primetime. So be it. We can wear our NL Central Championship t-shirts until they disintegrate. They can't take that from us. I'd be more disappointed if we "almost" beat the Phillies. In reality we are not in their league. Accept it and move on

[reds1869]

I disagree. Anyone who deals with it in that way needs to get a life. Sane people don't let sports control their lives like that. We had no part in those screwups. We can't let it torture us.

Our Reds are clearly not yet ready for primetime. So be it. We can wear our NL Central Championship t-shirts until they disintegrate. They can't take that from us. I'd be more disappointed if we "almost" beat the Phillies. In reality we are not in their league. Accept it and move on

I love (and understand) the passion in the linked article. Will I let this loss dominate my life? Of course not, but whenever it comes up It will feel like a kick to the face. To me that is just part of being a fan, taking the good with the bad. Emotion is a big part of the game and I see nothing wrong with fans taking the loss hard. It won't ruin my life but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth when my "baseball brain" is switched on.

[Sea Ray]

I love (and understand) the passion in the linked article. Will I let this loss dominate my life? Of course not, but whenever it comes up It will feel like a kick to the face. To me that is just part of being a fan, taking the good with the bad. Emotion is a big part of the game and I see nothing wrong with fans taking the loss hard. It won't ruin my life but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth when my "baseball brain" is switched on.

If you don't mind getting kicked in the face then fine. Personally I don't so I won't let it do that to me

[dsmith421]

I won't be upset if I never read a post like this again.

Edit: my gut reaction was that my post was too harsh, but after re-reading, I'm even more disgusted with the quoted post.

It was harsh. But he still choked. The Reds looked like a team overcome by the moment.

Save your moralizing for church.

[Eric_the_Red]

Good to see the post season bringing out the best here at RZ.

[dsmith421]

If you don't mind getting kicked in the face then fine. Personally I don't so I won't let it do that to me

I'm not big on telling other people how to deal with this stuff. It's leisure, some people like the emotion and the heartbreak and the euphoria, some people just like to watch on TV and switch off afterwards. That's the nice thing: you can do either and enjoy it just as much.

Of course, "enjoy" is a strange word having watched those two games.

[jojo]

Hey I guess this is a easy call to make afterall.

That is if you are looking at the play frozen in a picture and at an angle the umpire cannot see. ;)

:)

[Sea Ray]

I'm not big on telling other people how to deal with this stuff. It's leisure, some people like the emotion and the heartbreak and the euphoria, some people just like to watch on TV and switch off afterwards. That's the nice thing: you can do either and enjoy it just as much.

Of course, "enjoy" is a strange word having watched those two games.

Nobody's telling anyone how to deal with it. My point is it's up to you how you deal with it and if you want to let it kick you in the face then it's on you, not the Reds.

For me sports are to be enjoyed. If you let it ruin your day then what's the point? This is supposed to be a leisure activity for most of us.

As a few of you know, I am a big UT Volunteer fan. My team lost in gut wretching fashion at LSU on Saturday. I didn't let it take my appetite away. I said "man, this sucks", turned off the TV and did something else.

[Screwball]

It was harsh. But he still choked.

How exactly was he supposed to catch something he couldn't see?

[dsmith421]

How exactly was he supposed to catch something he couldn't see?

I had forgotten (and probably didn't watch) the Gonzalez and Cameron fiascos. Having read about them, it seems like there is a real problem with the lighting in that park that needs to be addressed. Still, there's no margin for error in the playoffs, especially with two on in a one-run game. That play has to be made. It just has to be.

[jojo]

I have a real hard time calling what I saw last night choking.

Bruce wasn't choking when he hit the dinger.

Phillips wasn't choking as he was a triple away from hitting a cycle.

Arroyo only missed two bats all night, missed his location an awful lot and was a flyball machine and the Reds weren't choking as they kept him in the game.

The 2010 Reds were above average at 6 spots on the field and had one of the best defenses in the majors. The Phillies match the Reds and raise them pitching. The Phillies are playing really well. The Reds aren't quite.

[bucksfan2]

Couple of things here.

I am not embarrassed at all. I didn't play in the game nor did I have any impact on the outcome of the game. The Reds did not play well in the field (although you could argue that Chase Utley's two errors were poor as well). It was disappointing but thats about it. There is still at least one more game to play and lets hope this team can bounce back yet again. Surely they won't play another game that poorly in the field again this post season.

As for the umpiring it was bad. Still can't get over the HBP. I don't know what replays Brutus was watching but the ball clearly missed everything. Utley, the catcher's glove, the Ump's head. Its disappointing because in less time than it takes for a catcher/pitcher conference that play could have been over turned. Now Utley is down in the count 1-2 and the inning will play out completely different. As soon as he reached base I just thought uh oh, this post season poor calls are coming back to haunt.

As for the slide into 2nd base I place the blame squarely on the Ump's shoulders. Its really a call that a ump who has done hundreds of games should get correct. When you see someone slide hard into 2nd base you know the last thing they are really worried about is getting to the base quickly. They are trying to do whatever they can to distract the fielder. Utley wasn't going for the base first, he was going after BP. The ump should have seen that slide and realized that right away. He blew the call.

What happens if the right calls are made? Who knows, Utley and Howard could have hit back to back homers. Or they could have had another big inning regardless. Unfortunately we will never know.

FWIW I don't blame Bruce for losing the ball in the lights. Nor do I think it should have been an error. Its just a bad luck play that happens from time to time. I have never seen a RF have as much trouble with the lights as Bruce has been in Philly. On almost every fly ball you can seem him shielding his eyes from the lights.

[Sea Ray]

I have a real hard time calling what I saw last night choking.

Bruce wasn't choking when he hit the dinger.

Phillips wasn't choking as he was a triple away from hitting a cycle.

Arroyo only missed two bats all night, missed his location an awful lot and was a flyball machine and the Reds weren't choking as they kept him in the game.

The 2010 Reds were above average at 6 spots on the field and had one of the best defenses in the majors. The Phillies match the Reds and raise them pitching. The Phillies are playing really well. The Reds aren't quite.

4 errors, 6 walks and 3 HBPs is choking regardless of the dingers

[Unassisted]

I don't think I'm even going to read the paper about it. Once through that game was enough.
I stopped at the headline in my paper... "Phillies make Reds look silly."

[George Anderson]

As for the slide into 2nd base I place the blame squarely on the Ump's shoulders. Its really a call that a ump who has done hundreds of games should get correct. When you see someone slide hard into 2nd base you know the last thing they are really worried about is getting to the base quickly. They are trying to do whatever they can to distract the fielder. Utley wasn't going for the base first, he was going after BP. The ump should have seen that slide and realized that right away. He blew the call.

.

.

The umpire is not trained to look at the runners slide. His focus is on following the ball to the fielders mitt. How a runner slides has no bearing on if he was safe or out.

[Sea Ray]

I stopped at the headline in my paper... "Phillies make Reds look silly."

I wonder how the Phillies caused this? Seems to me it was pretty much self inflicted

[Wheelhouse]

Good to see the post season bringing out the best here at RZ.

Well, it certainly is bringing out the best in the Reds! People are frustrated...

[bucksfan2]

The umpire is not trained to look at the runners slide. His focus is on following the ball to the fielders mitt. How a runner slides has no bearing on if he was safe or out.

See George I can't buy this. I don't have professional experience but to me this should just be one of those things that Umps know because of past experience. Like when the 1st base ump listens for the sound of the ball hitting the glove and watches when the runner touches the base. Or when the home plate ump can differentiate between a ball that hits the bat as opposed to hitting the an arm. You see a runner slide hard into a base you know the last thing he is worried about is getting the base. It should be a subconscious reaction that the ump has.

[Wheelhouse]

I have a real hard time calling what I saw last night choking.

Bruce wasn't choking when he hit the dinger.

Phillips wasn't choking as he was a triple away from hitting a cycle.

Arroyo only missed two bats all night, missed his location an awful lot and was a flyball machine and the Reds weren't choking as they kept him in the game.

The 2010 Reds were above average at 6 spots on the field and had one of the best defenses in the majors. The Phillies match the Reds and raise them pitching. The Phillies are playing really well. The Reds aren't quite.

I agree. I would call it a lack of mental preparation. The Reds have come through in the clutch many times this year...

[George Anderson]

See George I can't buy this. I don't have professional experience but to me this should just be one of those things that Umps know because of past experience. Like when the 1st base ump listens for the sound of the ball hitting the glove and watches when the runner touches the base. Or when the home plate ump can differentiate between a ball that hits the bat as opposed to hitting the an arm. You see a runner slide hard into a base you know the last thing he is worried about is getting the base. It should be a subconscious reaction that the ump has.



The umpire is trained to follow the ball from the fielder throwing the ball to the fielder catching the ball. The very last thing he wants to do is watch the bag the ball is being thrown to and wait for the throw. I am not going to get into a long explanation of the mechanics of why but you always want to watch the ball go from point A to point B. So having said that the umpire cannot focus on both the ball being thrown and how the fielder slides even if the theory of how the fielder slides should be a determining factor in if he was safe or out.

The only time a umpire should focus on the slide is basically after the play to see if he slid illegally. Any strategy I am assuming the fielder would have in his slide in order to break up a double play is the very last thing I care about.

Did the umpire miss the call?? It looks like he did but again we are watching the play in slow motion on Hi Def from angles the umpire could not see. The umpire did not have the luxery that we have to slow the play down and see it from all angles.

The play is what umpires call a "banger". A "banger" is a very close play that can go either way. If a team like the Reds put themselve in a position to let a "banger" or two decide the game then that is their fault.

[Sea Ray]

The play is what umpires call a "banger". A "banger" is a very close play that can go either way. If a team like the Reds put themselve in a position to let a "banger" or two decide the game then that is their fault.

I agree that it was a call that could have gone either way but it's not the Reds fault that the Phillies are a better team, particularly at CB Field. When you struggle to stay with a team, you can't afford bad breaks like what happened to them last night. The bad call at 2B, the fantom HBP with Utley at the plate and the ball lost in the lights were horruble breaks that went against the Reds

[Brutus]

The umpire is trained to follow the ball from the fielder throwing the ball to the fielder catching the ball. The very last thing he wants to do is watch the bag the ball is being thrown to and wait for the throw. I am not going to get into a long explanation of the mechanics of why but you always want to watch the ball go from point A to point B. So having said that the umpire cannot focus on both the ball being thrown and how the fielder slides even if the theory of how the fielder slides should be a determining factor in if he was safe or out.

The only time a umpire should focus on the slide is basically after the play to see if he slid illegally. Any strategy I am assuming the fielder would have in his slide in order to break up a double play is the very last thing I care about.

Did the umpire miss the call?? It looks like he did but again we are watching the play in slow motion on Hi Def from angles the umpire could not see. The umpire did not have the luxery that we have to slow the play down and see it from all angles.

The play is what umpires call a "banger". A "banger" is a very close play that can go either way. If a team like the Reds put themselve in a position to let a "banger" or two decide the game then that is their fault.

We used to joke around that you only had a 50/50 chance of getting a bang-bang call correct, assuming you were in proper position, and only a 50/50 chance that if it were correct, both teams would be satisfied with the call.

Essentially, you had less than a 25% chance of getting the call right. And that was without instant replay and microanalysis.

Sure does fit the description of internet discussions.

[edabbs44]

I think it is human nature to protect the ones you care most about.

If you are a Volquez "fan", then it is easier to look at OC and Gomes for "causing" Wednesday's loss. Meanwhile the big bats did nothing against Halladay and Edinson looked horrific and would likely have truly imploded sooner or later.

Last night we saw Rolen, Phillips and Bruce make key miscues while Ondrusek was not helping on the mound. Rolen again did nothing at the plate. Some want to point at the umps and, to an extent, rightfully so. They missed some tough (but key) calls. Utley was bush league but he did what he did. That stuff happens. But you have to execute on the field in spite of that crap.

Bad calls happen. Botched plays happen. The key is to bounce back and pick your teammates up when that happens. Not to single out certain players.

And that's really the key. So many people have really not shown up in the first two games. Too many. Whether its not getting it done at the plate or on the field, these first two games have really been a team effort. Pointing fingers at one guy for anything makes no sense. And I get the ump criticisms, I really do. Very unfortunate calls. But champs don't let those things beat them. You win in spite of them. It is one thing if the call is truly the deciding factor in the bottom of the 9th or something like that. But when you are kicking the ball around the field like it's the world cup, we need to look in other directions when figuring out what happened.

[George Anderson]

I agree that it was a call that could have gone either way but it's not the Reds fault that the Phillies are a better team, particularly at CB Field. When you struggle to stay with a team, you can't afford bad breaks like what happened to them last night. The bad call at 2B, the fantom HBP with Utley at the plate and the ball lost in the lights were horruble breaks that went against the Reds

The thing with the Utley HBP is unless you have a replay type thing to where the umpires can review the play and change it, you really cannot blame the umpires for the Utley HBP situation last night. The umpires in the field are to far away to see if a 100 MPH fast ball actually hit a batter or not. Remember we are talking inches here and no human being can see if a ball grazed the side of the batters hand or if the ball missed his hand by an inch. It just isn't possible for a human being to be able to judge from that distant. The plate ump also from his angle has a very difficult time judging if the ball grazed the batters hand or not. Consider where the HP umpire is standing and realizing how the ball came in on the batter and realize the umpire did not have the best angle to see if the ball grazed Utley or not. He doesn't have a Hi def camera in slow motion like we have to determine if the 100 MPH fastball grazed the batters hand or not.

I am not opposed to replay being used in baseball but fans sometimes need to realize that seeing plays in slow motion from all different angles on Hi def TV's is alot easier than calling a play at regular speed and from only one sometimes not so good angle.

[oneupper]

The play is what umpires call a "banger". A "banger" is a very close play that can go either way. If a team like the Reds put themselve in a position to let a "banger" or two decide the game then that is their fault.

I agree with this, but just a question about those "bangers". From what I've seen, I believe umps are usually more inclined to call an out on those close force plays at second. They'll give the fielding team a little leeway, if you will.

Does that match your experience?

[George Anderson]

I agree with this, but just a question about those "bangers". From what I've seen, I believe umps are usually more inclined to call an out on those close force plays at second. They'll give the fielding team a little leeway, if you will.

Does that match your experience?

Oh yes. Anytime you can get an out you get an out.

[Cedric]

I agree with this, but just a question about those "bangers". From what I've seen, I believe umps are usually more inclined to call an out on those close force plays at second. They'll give the fielding team a little leeway, if you will.

Does that match your experience?

I can answer that the fielding team gets that call 99/100 times.

The Umpires are humans and they let the emotion of the crowd ruin their game yesterday. The Umpires and the Reds both had horrible, horrible games.

There is no reason the blame has to be exclusive. I blame the Reds mainly but that doesn't mean the Umpires don't deserve any blame.

[Razor Shines]

The thing with the Utley HBP is unless you have a replay type thing to where the umpires can review the play and change it, you really cannot blame the umpires for the Utley HBP situation last night. The umpires in the field are to far away to see if a 100 MPH fast ball actually hit a batter or not. Remember we are talking inches here and no human being can see if a ball grazed the side of the batters hand or if the ball missed his hand by an inch. It just isn't possible for a human being to be able to judge from that distant. The plate ump also from his angle has a very difficult time judging if the ball grazed the batters hand or not. Consider where the HP umpire is standing and realizing how the ball came in on the batter and realize the umpire did not have the best angle to see if the ball grazed Utley or not. He doesn't have a Hi def camera in slow motion like we have to determine if the 100 MPH fastball grazed the batters hand or not.

I am not opposed to replay being used in baseball but fans sometimes need to realize that seeing plays in slow motion from all different angles on Hi def TV's is alot easier than calling a play at regular speed and from only one sometimes not so good angle.

Yeah, I can't really blame the HP ump for that one. I had a front view and at full speed I couldn't tell if it hit him or not. It's still really, really close in slow mo, but it does look like it missed him.

Also, I don't know why people are complaining about Utley missing 3rd, the Reds never appealed any way so it really makes no difference.

[Sea Ray]

The thing with the Utley HBP is unless you have a replay type thing to where the umpires can review the play and change it, you really cannot blame the umpires for the Utley HBP situation last night. The umpires in the field are to far away to see if a 100 MPH fast ball actually hit a batter or not. Remember we are talking inches here and no human being can see if a ball grazed the side of the batters hand or if the ball missed his hand by an inch. It just isn't possible for a human being to be able to judge from that distant. The plate ump also from his angle has a very difficult time judging if the ball grazed the batters hand or not. Consider where the HP umpire is standing and realizing how the ball came in on the batter and realize the umpire did not have the best angle to see if the ball grazed Utley or not. He doesn't have a Hi def camera in slow motion like we have to determine if the 100 MPH fastball grazed the batters hand or not.

I am not opposed to replay being used in baseball but fans sometimes need to realize that seeing plays in slow motion from all different angles on Hi def TV's is alot easier than calling a play at regular speed and from only one sometimes not so good angle.

Fine, so why did the ump assume that it did hit him? He didn't grimace or anything. The "replay" shows that much. If you don't see or hear it hit the batter then you shouldn't give the HBP call. Indecision should favor the pitcher in that instance