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The Snow Chief
10-08-2010, 09:51 PM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.

redram
10-08-2010, 09:54 PM
Not really, this series was lost in the 7th inning when Bruce missed a routine fly ball and Phillips could not catch the relay. Or was it when we made one of our many other Blunders in the field. Oh well at any rate it is sure as BLEEP lost

big boy
10-08-2010, 09:55 PM
They pretty much gave the game away. Not sure what Jock could have done to prevent that.

redlegs2370
10-08-2010, 10:23 PM
I agree, for all of the recent offensive struggles, if the Reds defense plays the way it normally has all year the Reds win 4-0 and everyone is happy the series is even.

Stray
10-08-2010, 10:38 PM
I don't really buy that. This series hinged on tonights game. It would have given us homefield with 2 in a row in Cincy. Big moments happen in the postseason a lot, and we haven't been ready for them. We lost because of errors by Phillips, Rolen, and Bruce...all of which can win gold gloves this year. That just sucks.

The Snow Chief
10-08-2010, 10:44 PM
Yeah, but that is just one game. Our lineup has such a gaping hole in it due to the the lack of offensive production on the left side of the field. We do not have a starting LFer that is mlb quality and we have gotten 3 homeruns out of our supposed cleanup hitter in the 2nd half of the season. This team could have won tonight but that does not change the fact that it is missing some key pieces and I hope they are addressed in the offseason

Stray
10-08-2010, 10:48 PM
Yeah, but that is just one game. Our lineup has such a gaping hole in it due to the the lack of offensive production on the left side of the field. We do not have a starting LFer that is mlb quality and we have gotten 3 homeruns out of our supposed cleanup hitter in the 2nd half of the season. This team could have won tonight but that does not change the fact that it is missing some key pieces and I hope they are addressed in the offseason

Yeah I agree with that. I just don't think it lost this series for us...nerves did. I'd love to upgrade LF, and get a real bat behind Joey (Bruce or someone else) too. With those holes we still had the best offense in the league, imagine how good we'll be when those holes are filled.

DocRed
10-08-2010, 10:58 PM
The playoffs were lost the moment Dusty decided to rest all his starters the day after we clinched.

redsfan_12
10-08-2010, 11:05 PM
The playoffs were lost the moment Dusty decided to rest all his starters the day after we clinched.

:clap:

757690
10-09-2010, 12:06 AM
This series is not lost yet. They play in Cincinnati on Sunday. :p:

Vottomatic
10-09-2010, 03:18 AM
The tightness of the team payroll gave them no flexibility at the trade deadline.

One more of year of an overpaid Cordero.
Harang and Lincoln finally come off the books this year.
Phillips is going to be overpaid next season at $11M.

Just some stupid contracts that need to transition there way off the books to allow management to bolster their weaknesses.

malcontent
10-09-2010, 03:36 AM
The tightness of the team payroll gave them no flexibility at the trade deadline.

One more of year of an overpaid Cordero.
Harang and Lincoln finally come off the books this year.
Phillips is going to be overpaid next season at $11M.

Just some stupid contracts that need to transition there way off the books to allow management to bolster their weaknesses.
I for one wouldn't mind seeing BP moved.

Just tonite he dropped 3 balls. Hard to say how many runs he cost the team. I'd like to hear why he slid to field Victorino's grounder. Style points...?

Plus, he's absolutely brainless when being interviewed. And there's no reining him in in that regard. Move him and give Valaika a shot.

Vottomatic
10-09-2010, 09:58 AM
I for one wouldn't mind seeing BP moved.

Just tonite he dropped 3 balls. Hard to say how many runs he cost the team. I'd like to hear why he slid to field Victorino's grounder. Style points...?

Plus, he's absolutely brainless when being interviewed. And there's no reining him in in that regard. Move him and give Valaika a shot.

As I said in another thread, the Reds in the early 70's were contenders nearly yearly. In the beginning, they had Lee May and Bobby Tolan. Even though they contended, Bob Howsam continued to wheel and deal to make the Big Red Machine.

3 things I think this team needs:
1. An Ace pitcher
2. A great leadoff hitter/tablesetter
3. A quality bat to hit behind Joey Votto

AintlifeGrande
10-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I wanted so bad to make a move for a good stick in the OF at the deadline.I figured it would come back to bite us in the butt.These ''proven veterans''have done nothing to help in the postseason.

cokesooner
10-09-2010, 01:19 PM
There's no way you can expect 3 of the best defensive players in the league at their positions to account for 4 errors in a span of a few innings. A power bat in left field wouldn't have changed that at all.

757690
10-09-2010, 01:31 PM
There's no way you can expect 3 of the best defensive players in the league at their positions to account for 4 errors in a span of a few innings. A power bat in left field wouldn't have changed that at all.

Excellent point. Playoffs, since they are so short, always seem to be decided by the unexpected.

757690
10-09-2010, 01:40 PM
The tightness of the team payroll gave them no flexibility at the trade deadline.

One more of year of an overpaid Cordero.
Harang and Lincoln finally come off the books this year.
Phillips is going to be overpaid next season at $11M.

Just some stupid contracts that need to transition there way off the books to allow management to bolster their weaknesses.

Reds had flexibility at the trade deadline to add payroll, both Cast and Jocketty were quoted as much. If they didn't they wouldn't have tried so hard to get Cliff Lee.

Outside of Lee, I didn't see anyone who was available then, who would have made a difference in this series.

BTW, the Reds will have around $12-15M of payflex this offseason (and yes that includes the raises from arbitration for everyone), even if they don't increase the payroll. And considering the bump in attendance, and the revenue from making the playoffs, it is highly likely that they will increase it.

One more thing. The Reds have already gotten over $16M in surplus value from Phillips contract, even if he never plays next year. He has never produced less than $13M in value as Red, so even his $11M due next year, will likely be a bargain. Cordero on the other hand....

AintlifeGrande
10-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Reds had flexibility at the trade deadline to add payroll, both Cast and Jocketty were quoted as much. If they didn't they wouldn't have tried so hard to get Cliff Lee.

Outside of Lee, I didn't see anyone who was available then, who would have made a difference in this series.

BTW, the Reds will have around $12-15M of payflex this offseason (and yes that includes the raises from arbitration for everyone), even if they don't increase the payroll. And considering the bump in attendance, and the revenue from making the playoffs, it is highly likely that they will increase it.

One more thing. The Reds have already gotten over $16M in surplus value from Phillips contract, even if he never plays next year. He has never produced less than $13M in value as Red, so even his $11M due next year, will likely be a bargain. Cordero on the other hand....


Do you understand how much money it will take to resign Votto?That surplus alone will only serve to make a dent in his offer.

757690
10-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Do you understand how much money it will take to resign Votto?That surplus alone will only serve to make a dent in his offer.

Yes, I do. Here is a breakdown of what the Reds payroll will look like next season. I have included $9 for Votto, $4 for Cueto and $3M for Bruce. Those actually are on the high side.

Many of the names of the $500K guys will be different, but the salaries will be the same. These also include buyouts.


Cordero 12.1
Philips 11.1
Rolen 8.1
Votto 9
Cueto 4
Bruce 3
Chapman 1
Masset 1.5
Volquez 1
Frazier 0.5
Alonso 0.6
Balentein 0.5
Ondrusek 0.5
Miller 0.5
Francisco 0.5
Hanigan 0.5
Herrera 0.5
Fisher 0.5
Bailey 0.5
Leake 0.5
Janish 0.5
Woods 0.5
Heisey 0.5
Stubbs 0.5
Cozart 0.5
Smith 0.5
Bray 0.5
Harang 2
Arroyo 2
Cabrera 1

Total 64.9

The Reds payroll this year over $76M. That gives the Reds around $11-12M to spend, if the lose every arbitration case. If they can negotiate some of them, it could be as high as $15M.

Krawhitham
10-09-2010, 02:14 PM
Not really, this series was lost in the 7th inning when Bruce missed a routine fly ball and Phillips could not catch the relay. Or was it when we made one of our many other Blunders in the field. Oh well at any rate it is sure as BLEEP lost

Not really, this series was lost when Utley was never hit and got 1st base, then was thrown out at 2nd by Rolen but was called safe


Yes the Reds played like crap but if those two things were called correctly Bruce never misses the ball because the inning is over and the reds win that game

Vottomatic
10-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Yes, I do. Here is a breakdown of what the Reds payroll will look like next season. I have included $9 for Votto, $4 for Cueto and $3M for Bruce. Those actually are on the high side.

Many of the names of the $500K guys will be different, but the salaries will be the same. These also include buyouts.


Cordero 12.1
Philips 11.1
Rolen 8.1
Votto 9
Cueto 4
Bruce 3
Chapman 1
Masset 1.5
Volquez 1
Frazier 0.5
Alonso 0.6
Balentein 0.5
Ondrusek 0.5
Miller 0.5
Francisco 0.5
Hanigan 0.5
Herrera 0.5
Fisher 0.5
Bailey 0.5
Leake 0.5
Janish 0.5
Woods 0.5
Heisey 0.5
Stubbs 0.5
Cozart 0.5
Smith 0.5
Bray 0.5
Harang 2
Arroyo 2
Cabrera 1

Total 64.9

The Reds payroll this year over $76M. That gives the Reds around $11-12M to spend, if the lose every arbitration case. If they can negotiate some of them, it could be as high as $15M.

Comical. They're not going to buy Arroyo's option out at $2M???? That's just silly. Might as well pay him the other $9M to actually help the team like he did this year.

So payroll jumps back up to $73.9M and there is very little flexibility.

And Chapman counts over $3M per season toward payroll, so add another $2M and it goes to $75.9M ~ $76M.

Where you're coming up with flexibility is by ignoring the obvious. :rolleyes:

Krawhitham
10-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Comical. They're not going to buy Arroyo's option out at $2M???? That's just silly. Might as well pay him the other $9M to actually help the team like he did this year.

So payroll jumps back up to $73.9M and there is very little flexibility.

And Chapman counts over $3M per season toward payroll, so add another $2M and it goes to $75.9M ~ $76M.

Where you're coming up with flexibility is by ignoring the obvious. :rolleyes:

They need to move Cordero & Phillips for flexibility

Cordero has 40 saves, someone might bite, Mets maybe?

They will not even try to trade Phillips which is sad

Vottomatic
10-09-2010, 02:40 PM
They need to move Cordero & Phillips for flexibility

Cordero has 40 saves, someone might bite, Mets maybe?

They will not even try to trade Phillips which is sad

Well, someone once said, trade when their value is the highest, so it might be time to look into trading B-Phil. His contract is up after next year........then what? If people on here really think a Gold Glove second baseman is worth $11M a year............then BP might want more than that to re-sign. I see him wanting a ton from the Reds and then going the Adam Dunn route and finding out his value elsewhere isn't so high.

757690
10-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Comical. They're not going to buy Arroyo's option out at $2M???? That's just silly. Might as well pay him the other $9M to actually help the team like he did this year.

So payroll jumps back up to $73.9M and there is very little flexibility.

And Chapman counts over $3M per season toward payroll, so add another $2M and it goes to $75.9M ~ $76M.

Where you're coming up with flexibility is by ignoring the obvious. :rolleyes:

First, that Chapman money comes out of player development money. That was made very clear when he was signed. Only $1M for the first few years comes out of payroll.

And yes, if they pick up Arroyo's contract, that gives them less flexibility, but that is far from a done deal. In fact, it looks like an extension is being discussed, which likely will lead to a less money in '11 for security in later years.

Regardless, they still will have flexibility at the trade deadline, since they had the same payroll this year, and had the flexibility then. In fact that was one reason why Jocketty said he didn't spend more money in the off-season, so that they would have flexibility at the trade deadline to pick up needed pieces. And again, they made a serious offer for Cliff Lee, so they clearly were willing to add payroll for the right player.

And remember that the Reds increased attendance by 250K this season. That should add at least $5M to the payroll right there, plus the added revenue from being in the playoffs, and increased season ticket sales for next season. I could easily see the Reds payroll be at $85M next season, maybe even $90M.

The Reds are in much better shape payroll wise, than most teams. Payroll should not be a big issue for the Reds in 2011.

Krawhitham
10-09-2010, 02:41 PM
The Reds payroll this year over $76M.

and that was base on attendance of 2,571,627 in 2009, I've seen reports that attendance rose 18% so 2,571,627 + 18% is 3,034,520

How much more payroll does 462,893 people get you?

Vottomatic
10-09-2010, 02:45 PM
I could easily see the Reds payroll be at $85M next season, maybe even $90M.



I'll believe that when I see it. This year's payroll was the highest ever, I believe. If that's the case that payroll will increase to nearly $90M, I re-sign Arroyo ($14M?), trade BP (-$11M), try and trade Cordero (-$12M), and trade/sign an ace starting pitcher (+$14M). Then go out and find a good hitter to bat behind Votto and find a good tablesetter to leadoff.

Masset/Chapman/Ondrusek can close.
Valaika can place second base with less drama and at a cheaper price.

Krawhitham
10-09-2010, 02:48 PM
First, that Chapman money comes out of player development money. That was made very clear when he was signed. Only $1M for the first few years comes out of payroll.

And yes, if they pick up Arroyo's contract, that gives them less flexibility, but that is far from a done deal. In fact, it looks like an extension is being discussed, which likely will lead to a less money in '11 for security in later years.

If Chapman is on the ML roster that is where his money is coming from, they will funnel the $$ used on Chapman back to development. This was their best case scenario. Spend development money for a player who makes it to the majors quickly so the development department gets it money back and can look for others to sign.

And Arroyo option is a done deal, if for no other reason but to trade him if they can not sign him to an extension

Krawhitham
10-09-2010, 09:26 PM
And yes, if they pick up Arroyo's contract, that gives them less flexibility, but that is far from a done deal.

"We're definitely picking up the option," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said on Saturday. "We'll try to extend him but I don't want the focus on that right now [during the playoffs]."

TC81190
10-09-2010, 09:28 PM
I don't really buy that. This series hinged on tonights game. It would have given us homefield with 2 in a row in Cincy. Big moments happen in the postseason a lot, and we haven't been ready for them. We lost because of errors by Phillips, Rolen, and Bruce...all of which can win gold gloves this year. That just sucks.
We gave away game 2, no doubt there. But game 1 still happened. Even if Halladay hadn't been no-hitter good, we still would've needed to play basically perfect baseball to beat them. With a true #1 and legitimate bat in LF, the margin error becomes a lot bigger.

markymark69
10-11-2010, 06:39 PM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.

Would you have been willing what it would take to get a top of the line starter? Many on this board were not. I advocated going after Cliff Lee, even it meant giving up Wood and Alonso - and people scoffed at it.

I don't know what the Reds offered for Lee, but I bet Walt didn't put Wood on the table. If he did and Seattle still didn't take it - that's not the Reds fault.

It's real easy to say they should have done this and that - but you have to have another team to deal with.

markymark69
10-11-2010, 06:42 PM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.

To speak to the other part of your post. I agree left field still needs to be addressed. I would have liked to have seen what Edmonds could have done this series. The way the Phillies pitched - I'm not sure Ruth and Gehrig would have made a difference.

realistic
10-12-2010, 02:59 AM
i agree with the OP this is what i was thinking too, its like they played it too conservative which is usually a good thing for most teams - use caution. but this is one time where 1 player could have made a huge difference.

if he could go back in time you can be sure Jocketty would give what it takes for a Cliff Lee type pitcher

Hey Meat
10-13-2010, 11:33 AM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.

That's fine because we didn't sell off our future in the process,

Girevik
10-13-2010, 11:52 AM
I would have loved to see the Reds land Lee, it didn't happen but what if it would have? So he would have lost 1-0 in the no hit game, Arroyo probably still pitches the 2nd game, and either Cueto or Volquez in the 3rd. I don't see a big difference.

I also thought a bat would have been great, but who was out there that moved that would have helped the team? This was just not a good year for teams looking to add at the deadline.

Kiss the Baby00
10-13-2010, 01:23 PM
757690 is a great and very intelligent poster.

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 01:55 PM
I went back to see what the Rangers gave up for Lee. This is the deal that got the Rangers the guy that may lead them to a world championship. Rangers acquired LHP Cliff Lee, RHP Mark Lowe and cash from the Mariners for 1B Justin Smoak, RHP Blake Beavan, LHP Josh Lueke and 2B Matt Lawson.

saying that I also read that the Reds offered Francisco and Alonzo to Seattle for Lee. If all of that is true then the Reds had to of been close to trading for the guy. I don't believe that Walt didn't make a effort.

I think that it came down to this. The Reds may have wanted to try and get a deal done with Lee to extend him and Lee wouldn't discuss it. If that is the case then noone can blame the Reds for not making that deal. I would not have been happy if we lost these two guys and then in the end not only lose them but lose Lee anyway.

The Reds have been preaching the youth movement to us for years. I have bought into it. I want to see the Reds continue the plan.

I would like to the see the extend Bronson and deal him. I would like to see the Reds move Francisco to third full time next year and have Rolen as a backup. That way Rolen can teach the kid how to be a big league player and Rolen can stay healthy.

Girevik
10-13-2010, 02:19 PM
I think that it came down to this. The Reds may have wanted to try and get a deal done with Lee to extend him and Lee wouldn't discuss it. If that is the case then noone can blame the Reds for not making that deal. I would not have been happy if we lost these two guys and then in the end not only lose them but lose Lee anyway.

From what I remember hearing, it was simply that the Rangers liked Smoak better than Alonzo.

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 03:35 PM
From what I remember hearing, it was simply that the Rangers liked Smoak better than Alonzo.

wow, ok. Then you know what at the end of the day the Reds are better off. Smoaks numbers fell way off after being dealt. Now it could have been he went from a great hitters park to on of the worst in baseball for hitters in Seattle. new teammates trying to please the brass. But whatever.

brm7675
10-13-2010, 05:53 PM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.

How many good hitting LF were traded at the trade deadline? In fact how many good hitting OF were traded at the deadline? I don't remember any quality hitter being moved that would have made any difference against the Philly pitching staff. This "series" was lost because Philly is a better team, plain and simple.

brm7675
10-13-2010, 05:54 PM
The playoffs were lost the moment Dusty decided to rest all his starters the day after we clinched.

how is that?

brm7675
10-13-2010, 05:55 PM
The tightness of the team payroll gave them no flexibility at the trade deadline.

Phillips is going to be overpaid next season at $11M.

Just some stupid contracts that need to transition there way off the books to allow management to bolster their weaknesses.

How is phillips over paid at $11 million?

brm7675
10-13-2010, 06:01 PM
Well, someone once said, trade when their value is the highest, so it might be time to look into trading B-Phil. His contract is up after next year........then what? If people on here really think a Gold Glove second baseman is worth $11M a year............then BP might want more than that to re-sign. I see him wanting a ton from the Reds and then going the Adam Dunn route and finding out his value elsewhere isn't so high.

Well going with that thought, lets do this, lets offer Votto right now. I mean there is ZERO chance in you know what that is value will ever be higher then it is right now given his production and contract cost. I say we offer Votto to the Braves for Heyward. Braves need a 1st basemen and we can move Heyward to LF. We save a few bucks, the Braves can afford Votto's new contract down the road and we can look to invest in Cliff Lee. Put Yonder at first and we win it all.:thumbup:

Vottomatic
10-13-2010, 07:33 PM
How is phillips over paid at $11 million?

Then put him on the trading block and see how few, if any, teams inquire about him.

Nobody would pay BP $11M.

brm7675
10-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Then put him on the trading block and see how few, if any, teams inquire about him.

Nobody would pay BP $11M.

Your kidding right, look at how many overpriced players there are in the league right now. phillips is far from being overpriced at 11 million for next season.

757690
10-14-2010, 03:24 PM
757690 is a great and very intelligent poster.

Mom? ;)

New York Red
10-14-2010, 05:02 PM
The inability or unwillingness to upgrade the front of the rotation or left field doomed the Reds. Jim Edmonds, even if healthy, is not enough. They needed a legitimate bat in left field. A team with a platoon of Gomes and Nix in left is going to have major holes. I hope it is addressed in the offseason so Rolen can drop to the 6 hole where he belongs.
I don't think that's why we lost this series. We lost this series because our usually reliable hitters didn't come through, and our usually reliable defense had a major meltdown.

Now if you want to talk about why we suddenly became a less-than-.500 team in September, then you may have a point. Our woeful performance the final month of the season is why we wound up having to face the Phillies in the first round. Bullpen meltdowns and poor hitting w/RISP doomed us the final month, but it was other issues in the playoff series.

Vottomatic
10-14-2010, 05:32 PM
We sucked all year against good pitchers. Until we battle the good ones better, we're not going to win anything.

1990REDS
10-14-2010, 05:45 PM
We lost the series because we played the best team in the league. Simple as that.

RedsLvr
10-14-2010, 05:54 PM
Yeah we lost this series because we weren't the best team.

757690
10-14-2010, 07:37 PM
We sucked all year against good pitchers. Until we battle the good ones better, we're not going to win anything.

Take a guess what this is a list of: :)

Roy Halladay
Josh Johnson
Roy Oswalt (2)
Adam Wainwright (2)
Tommy Hanson
Clayton Kershaw
Yovani Gallardo
Brad Penny (2)
Ted Lilly
Mike Pelfrey
Ryan Dempster

kfm
10-14-2010, 07:51 PM
Take a guess what this is a list of: :)

Roy Halladay
Josh Johnson
Roy Oswalt (2)
Adam Wainwright (2)
Tommy Hanson
Clayton Kershaw
Yovani Gallardo
Brad Penny (2)
Ted Lilly
Mike Pelfrey
Ryan Dempster

Pitchers the Reds beat this year. Take a look at this list and tell me what it is?

Philadelphia
St. Louis
Colorado
San Diego
San Francisco
Atlanta

shredda2000
10-14-2010, 09:54 PM
Pitchers the Reds beat this year. Take a look at this list and tell me what it is?

Philadelphia
St. Louis
Colorado
San Diego
San Francisco
Atlanta

Teams that the Reds could not beat in a series?

757690
10-15-2010, 12:51 AM
Pitchers the Reds beat this year. Take a look at this list and tell me what it is?

Philadelphia
St. Louis
Colorado
San Diego
San Francisco
Atlanta

Good point. :thumbup:

DocRed
10-15-2010, 05:56 PM
Take a guess what this is a list of: :)

Roy Halladay
Josh Johnson
Roy Oswalt (2)
Adam Wainwright (2)
Tommy Hanson
Clayton Kershaw
Yovani Gallardo
Brad Penny (2)
Ted Lilly
Mike Pelfrey
Ryan Dempster

Wow you are really digging deep there to make your point. Lilly? Penny? Pelfrey? Not even in the same class as guys like Halladay. I'm sure one could compile a similar list with almost any team in MLB.