PDA

View Full Version : What do you want? Left Field



Pages : 1 [2]

Brutus
11-04-2010, 08:56 AM
He would make Gomes look like Crawford in LF. Just sayin'.

That doesn't seem to be the case. Playing primarily a tougher position (RF), Guerrero has been -24.4 total UZR in about 6,000 innings since 2003. Gomes has been -38.4 since his career began in 2003, and that's in 2,624 innings.

Guerrero isn't a great defensive player, obviously, but I don't think he's worse than Gomes. Perhaps he's even better.

But this year, Guerrero was a .360 wOBA guy. Gomes was .330. Put it all together and Guerrero is an upgrade.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 08:59 AM
That doesn't seem to be the case. Playing primarily a tougher position (RF), Guerrero has been -24.4 total UZR in about 6,000 innings since 2003. Gomes has been -38.4 since his career began in 2003, and that's in 2,624 innings.

Guerrero isn't a great defensive player, obviously, but I don't think he's worse than Gomes. Perhaps he's even better.

But this year, Guerrero was a .360 wOBA guy. Gomes was .330. Put it all together and Guerrero is an upgrade.

Forget about 2003. It will be 2011. Guerrero looked ridiculous in RF in the WS this year. He didn't even play in Game 2.

Brutus
11-04-2010, 09:09 AM
Forget about 2003. It will be 2011. Guerrero looked ridiculous in RF in the WS this year. He didn't even play in Game 2.

Careers aren't built based on how someone looks in the World Series. If that's the case, then Cody Ross looks like a HOF based on how he hit in the postseason.

7 years is plenty of data. The numbers aren't really even close. They support Guerrero being a better fielder, despite how he looked in 4 games in the World Series.

Remember Cincinnati? If you judge by the 3-game series against Philadelphia, one would conclude Brandon Phillips, Scott Rolen and Jay Bruce were brutal defensive players too.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 09:20 AM
Careers aren't built based on how someone looks in the World Series. If that's the case, then Cody Ross looks like a HOF based on how he hit in the postseason.

7 years is plenty of data. The numbers aren't really even close. They support Guerrero being a better fielder, despite how he looked in 4 games in the World Series.

Remember Cincinnati? If you judge by the 3-game series against Philadelphia, one would conclude Brandon Phillips, Scott Rolen and Jay Bruce were brutal defensive players too.

Not quite. I'm actually surprised that this is your position. Based on your logic, we need to hurry up and go sign Jeter because he has been amazing since 2003.

Vlad is a DH for a reason. He can barely move out there and they wouldn't even let him play in the field in the WS because of how bad he was in Game 1. He didn't have a bad game...they were just scared of what he would do in Game 2.

You need to look at those statistics in context. Blindly throwing around fielding numbers from when Vlad was actually mobile is wreckless, at best.

blumj
11-04-2010, 09:34 AM
Daddy, why are they making that poor old disabled man play the outfield?

Brutus
11-04-2010, 09:34 AM
Not quite. I'm actually surprised that this is your position. Based on your logic, we need to hurry up and go sign Jeter because he has been amazing since 2003.

Vlad is a DH for a reason. He can barely move out there and they wouldn't even let him play in the field in the WS because of how bad he was in Game 1. He didn't have a bad game...they were just scared of what he would do in Game 2.

You need to look at those statistics in context. Blindly throwing around fielding numbers from when Vlad was actually mobile is wreckless, at best.

My position is that he's an overall upgrade over Gomes. Considering a WAR difference between the two this year of 2.6 and -0.1, that's not far-fetched. Even if Guerrero had given back half of those runs defensively by not spending most of his time at DH, he's still an upgrade.

It should be pointed out that if Gomes were in the AL, he too would have been a "DH for a reason." I'm not saying Guerrero is a great fielder. I'm saying he's no worse than Gomes but he's a better hitter.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 09:42 AM
My position is that he's an overall upgrade over Gomes. Considering a WAR difference between the two this year of 2.6 and -0.1, that's not far-fetched. Even if Guerrero had given back half of those runs defensively by not spending most of his time at DH, he's still an upgrade.

It should be pointed out that if Gomes were in the AL, he too would have been a "DH for a reason." I'm not saying Guerrero is a great fielder. I'm saying he's no worse than Gomes but he's a better hitter.

So say he is the Gomes equivalent in the OF next year, for argument's sake...is he worth the $9-10MM he may cost? It's one thing to say he would be an improvement at some level, its another to say that he would make sense in the grand scheme.

Brutus
11-04-2010, 10:00 AM
So say he is the Gomes equivalent in the OF next year, for argument's sake...is he worth the $9-10MM he may cost? It's one thing to say he would be an improvement at some level, its another to say that he would make sense in the grand scheme.

I'm assuming he won't cost that much. If he does, I'd take a pass.

There are still plenty of other options I'd rather see. He's just someone I could see being an interesting choice if others don't work out.

Homer Bailey
11-04-2010, 10:10 AM
Vlad is not going to an NL team, IMO.

redsfandan
11-04-2010, 02:34 PM
I can't really see the Yankees being interested in the Reds starters. They send guys like Chamberlain to the pen and leave Ivan Nova off the play-off roster and push these types aside in favor of established stars. Those are pretty similar to the guys the Reds have to deal. If the Yankees were to go with a question mark or a guy with unproven promise, I'd guess they would give one of those a look, but the Yankees don't need to deal for promise when they can afford to get guys who've already proven their worth. I think the Yankees are wanting to move Swisher, if this is true, to make room for Crawford or Werth, but Leake, Maloney, Lecure or even Wood or Bailey won't get it done. I'd do Volquez for Swisher, but doubt the Yankees would. The Yankees would probably take Chapman in a deal because of the hype, but would anyone do that?

I'd hate to give up one of the certainties like Arroyo or Cueto, but might be tempted if the Yanks add Nova in the deal to give the Reds another option if too many of the questions are answered no. The Reds could give a reliever or something if the Yanks want. I'm guessing the Yankees are still aiming higher.
Well, if you believe this article that was posted on the NYDailyNews.com website, the yankees aren't that interested in Crawford or Werth and prefer to target Cliff Lee. Now, who knows how credible that really is. I mean we are talking about the yankees. Here's a couple quotes from the article:


"We are better with Crawford, but at that price?" a Yankees source said. "I'm not sure it's that good of an upgrade."


"Unless they parted with one of those guys (Swisher, Granderson, or Gardner), I'm not sure where they would fit," the source said of Crawford and Werth.

So, if that's how the yankees REALLY feel then they'd likely hold the advantage in any trade talks. And I'd hate to see Walt overpay for a guy unless he really, really has to.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2010/11/04/2010-11-04_carl_werth_off_wish_list.html?#ixzz14L778AiL

Daddy, why are they making that poor old disabled man play the outfield?
Ok, that made me laugh. Thanks. :)

Will M
12-24-2010, 12:05 AM
Flash back to May 1975. The Big Red Machine had lost the 1970 & 1972 World Series. They lost the NLCS in 1973 & in 1974 finished 2nd to their archrival the Dodgers. In early 1975 the Reds were in 2nd place. They had a big hole on the team at 3B. Pete hadn't played the infield for 8 years. He had a grand total of 16 major league games playing 3B. George Foster was not an MVP caliber sure fire thing for the outfield. He was a 26 year old who had started 65 games in 1974 with an OPS+ of 110. Pete moved to 3B and a replacement level bat was removed from the lineup and replaced with George Foster. Foster OPS+ed 139 in 1975 & the BRM won back to back titles.

The 'Reds are interested in Podsednik' thread got me thinking.
The team claims to be cash strapped & have very little money to spend. They don't seem (although we don't know for sure) to have been interested in DeJesus, Willingham, Uggla,etc.

OK. How can the Reds improve the team's position players without adding payroll? Well folks, there is a way. We could add a potential 850 OPS bat to the lineup. All it takes is for one guy to 'take it for the team'. Considering the competition defensively in LF may be a Gomes/Podsednik platoon the bar is set pretty low. Unless Joey is an absolute butcher in left it seems that Joey to left & Alonso to 1B could be the best way to help the team in 2011.
(Note I picked Joey to LF instead of Alonso to LF as I feel Joey is more likely to be adequate there defensively than Alonso).

I know this has been discussed before. I bring it up again for a reason. In past discussions it was thought that Joey could stay at 1B and the team could add a decent bat for left field. This doesn't seem to be the case as the team has passed on several decent targets & there are statements from the team stating that they don't have the cash to make a significant addition.

Redhook
12-24-2010, 09:05 AM
I understand where you're coming from, but personally, I wouldn't consider moving Votto. Why chance messing with an MVP? Especially one who is only a year away from some serious personal problems. Plus, what would happen if Alonso struggles mightily for the first month or two?

Why can't Alonso try LF again? He briefly did last year, IIRC. Is he that bad of an athlete? Would he really be that much worse than Dunn or Carlos Lee? If the Reds are great defensively everywhere else on the field, couldn't they afford one albatross? I've never seen Alonso play LF, and most on here haven't either, but I just wonder how bad it is. Outside of catchers, there aren't many young major leaguers who can only play one position.

mth123
12-24-2010, 10:28 AM
I understand where you're coming from, but personally, I wouldn't consider moving Votto. Why chance messing with an MVP? Especially one who is only a year away from some serious personal problems. Plus, what would happen if Alonso struggles mightily for the first month or two?

Why can't Alonso try LF again? He briefly did last year, IIRC. Is he that bad of an athlete? Would he really be that much worse than Dunn or Carlos Lee? If the Reds are great defensively everywhere else on the field, couldn't they afford one albatross? I've never seen Alonso play LF, and most on here haven't either, but I just wonder how bad it is. Outside of catchers, there aren't many young major leaguers who can only play one position.

I think the Alonso to LF ship has sailed (Votto to LF too). The Reds didn't seem to have any interest in Alonso or Francisco out there when they were down to 2 OF last year and he didn't get a look at any point in the majors. The Reds didn't send Alonso to winter ball or the instructional league to play the OF. I just think its not an option that the Reds are seriously considering. Its one of the reasons for the frustration concerning no deals. Alonso seems like he won't be of any use unless Votto leaves town. No one wants Votto to leave town and it will likely be three years before there is an opening. Not sure I see why the team should let its window close while wasting a resource in AAA. The Reds have holes to fill and a guy to deal to help fill them. Hopefully Alonso has a big year and the Reds can ship him at the deadline for a major acquisition, but keeping him doesn't really help the big league team.

As for Votto moving, I agree with your post. I'm guessing, and its only a guess, that Votto just doesn't want to do it.