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View Full Version : Josh Hamilton Trade for Volquez and Danny Ray Herrera..



Hey Meat
10-20-2010, 10:08 AM
I am starting to think that this trade may top the Felipe Lopez/Austin Kearns for Bray and Majewski trade as being one of the worst trades the Reds have made in recent years.

will5979
10-20-2010, 10:23 AM
Hell it may rank up there with the Robinson deal and O'Neill deal.

Could you imagine our offensive numbers with Hamilton/Stubbs/Bruce in that OF? Good Lord and who needed Volquez this season.

Captain13
10-20-2010, 10:49 AM
I am starting to think that this trade may top the Felipe Lopez/Austin Kearns for Bray and Majewski trade as being one of the worst trades the Reds have made in recent years.

I don't think the Lopez/Kearns for Bray/Majewski trade is a bad trade at all. I don't think Lopez or Kearns could have helped this team at all. We won in terms of $$$ and didn't lose anything of value. While it wasn't a great trade, I don't see it as a bad one. More of a non-factor, a nothing.

Hey Meat
10-20-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't think the Lopez/Kearns for Bray/Majewski trade is a bad trade at all. I don't think Lopez or Kearns could have helped this team at all. We won in terms of $$$ and didn't lose anything of value. While it wasn't a great trade, I don't see it as a bad one. More of a non-factor, a nothing.

In the long run no, but it sure took the wind out of our sails that year(06). It cost us a playoff spot and maybe even a World Series since the Cards won it that year.

Jr's Boy
10-20-2010, 11:39 AM
Hell it may rank up there with the Robinson deal and O'Neill deal.

Could you imagine our offensive numbers with Hamilton/Stubbs/Bruce in that OF? Good Lord and who needed Volquez this season.

That's exactly what I was thinking about yesterday,after the first home run.Krivsky clearly undervalued this guy,and with all the drug abuse in his past he was afraid it would resurface in my opinion.But at the time,our battle cry was pitching,pitching,pitching, etc.Hindsight is 20/20,however knowing about the baseball pedigree of Hamilton,as well as his dirt cheap contract,my thoughts are you roll the dice with this kid.

aldotcs
10-20-2010, 11:43 AM
I understand the frustration since not all the people we traded for turned out to be what we wanted/expected. But hindsight is always 20/20 and we couldn't have known that at the time. Look forward, everyone, we can still have a playoff worthy team in 2011!

Hey Meat
10-20-2010, 11:55 AM
So what if you have to have a coach to follow the guy around to make sure he doesn't relapse. So what if you have to use ginger for a pennant celebration. The guy is Roy Hobbs. He is the natural. Big mistake on Krivsky's part and it didn't seem so apparent after the first year as Volquez had an all-star year and Danny Ray was not bad. Today it is a glaring brain fart on the part of Krivsky. I cry every I watch Josh Hamilton play. He should be a Red.

Old NDN
10-20-2010, 12:00 PM
At the time of the trade the Reds needed quality arms. There's no doubt Volquez has TOR stuff. But, the more I watch him, I'm not sure he has the drive or determination to be one. Hamilton has been a heck of a player, but there's still the injury concerns with him. I think it's still a little early to call a winner or loser (if there is one) in this trade.

brm7675
10-20-2010, 01:35 PM
Sorry but given the chance to make that deal at that time with the info we had, I still make that deal. It is easy to look back on deals after a few years have past, but you have to look at the sitution at that time and we needed pitching, you had no idea how or if josh would be good long term (and we still don't know) and make the deal. The Frank Robinson deal is still worse deal ever, you KNEW what you had with him and still traded him.

757690
10-20-2010, 02:02 PM
Frank Robinson was not an admitted drug addict, who not only could relapse at anytime, but also whose body had been abused for years.

I think everyone expected Hamilton to have some great years. The issue has always been for how long?

I'm gonna wait a few years before judging this trade.

Jack Burton
10-20-2010, 03:14 PM
DRH really tips the scales in our favor..... j/k.

Terrible trade, we traded a recovering addict (who is by far the better overall player) for an admitted steroid user.

757690
10-20-2010, 03:51 PM
DRH really tips the scales in our favor..... j/k.

Terrible trade, we traded a recovering addict (who is by far the better overall player) for an admitted steroid user.

Actually, Volquez has never been accused or, nor has he ever admitted to using steroids. He was suspended for testing positive for a male fertility drug that increases testosterone and is banned by MLB. He claims it was prescribed by his family doctor, he was taking it in order to make a family and did not know it was banned. He still is at fault, as he should make sure about every drug he takes, but it really was rather innocent.

At worst, this drug helps someone heal faster after surgery, so if he was cheating, it only was to get back to playing faster. This drug does not make one stronger or enhance performance, it simply aids in the healing process.

Red in Atl
10-20-2010, 04:31 PM
Furthmore, it's clear with this example that no matter what the Reds do, a large group on here will b**** and moan that the end of the world has happened and the Reds are responsible. It's laughable and boring.

That trade at that time should be made everytime. It helped both clubs incredibly and will continue to do so. Do you people remember our starters in 2007? Let me refresh some of those great memories of Kyle Loshe, Matt Belisle, Eric Milton, Bobby Livingston, Kirk Saarloos, The Lizard, Phil Dumatrait and the undefeated (3-0) next TOR, Tom Shearn.

We were a desperate team for pitching. The Rangers demanded Hamilton, and we demaned Volquez. It was the only way either team got something they had to have to try and put seats in the stadium and start winning ball games.

But this is the most annoying part. People here are acting like Volquez is some kind of bust. Really? He went 17-8 his first season. He got hurt, had TJ and came back in less than a year. Who does that, btw?

I so look forward to next year when Edinson is our TOR guy that we all are convinced we have to have. We have him. He just wasn't healed enough to be in top form.

BuckeyeRed27
10-20-2010, 06:41 PM
I still think it's a pretty good trade. Unless Volquez gets hurt again or seriously regresses from his potential than he is a very solid starter.

Power hitters like Hamilton don't grow on trees either, but as we have seen in this playoffs (and most others) you need good pitching to win.

Kingspoint
10-20-2010, 08:01 PM
I am starting to think that this trade may top the Felipe Lopez/Austin Kearns for Bray and Majewski trade as being one of the worst trades the Reds have made in recent years.

The REDS got a steal in the Mister-highly-overated-Kearns trade. They have Bray and Thompson still. Washington has nobody left. Bray is solid. Thompson has been very good when healthy.

Hamilton versus Volquez/Herrera is a wash. It's a given that the REDS need an ACE to win a World Series. They don't win one with Josh Hamilton. Texas doesn't get to the World Series without Cliff Lee. Volquez started Game 1 of the Phillies/REDS series because he had the most potential of any Pitcher for the REDS this season. Let him be two years removed from Tommy John surgery next year during the playoffs and we'll see how he does then.

Vottomatic
10-20-2010, 09:45 PM
It's easy to do the hindsight 20/20 thing now, when we have an abundance of quality starting pitching. We had almost ZERO quality starting pitching at the time. Harang was on the downside. Arroyo was decent but his best years came after that trade. Cueto and Bailey were iffy and not living up to expectations. There was no Mike Leake or Travis Wood. No Aroldis Chapman.

At the time, it was looking like Volquez was going to be our ONLY good starter.

In my book, quality pitching is more valuable than quality hitting any day of the week.

I think it's dumb to revisit this trade. You have to be able to understand where this organization was at the time of it, most people can't seem to comprehend that.

Oxblood
10-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Hamilton, Stubbs, Bruce. Fahgedaboutit.

Betterread
10-20-2010, 10:46 PM
It's easy to do the hindsight 20/20 thing now, when we have an abundance of quality starting pitching. We had almost ZERO quality starting pitching at the time. Harang was on the downside. Arroyo was decent but his best years came after that trade. Cueto and Bailey were iffy and not living up to expectations. There was no Mike Leake or Travis Wood. No Aroldis Chapman.

At the time, it was looking like Volquez was going to be our ONLY good starter.

In my book, quality pitching is more valuable than quality hitting any day of the week.

I think it's dumb to revisit this trade. You have to be able to understand where this organization was at the time of it, most people can't seem to comprehend that.
The trade was suspect from the moment it was made. Despite what you think, most people remember the Reds needed starters badly at the end of 2007. Outside of Arroyo and Harang, our rotation was truly craptastic. Something had to be done. But we had just taken a risk on Hamilton, who far exceeded expectations and everyone thought he was just scraping the surface of what he could do. I mean, just watch the guy play for 10 games and it is clear that he is a special ballplayer. And we traded him for Volquez, who had displayed talend only intermittently, and his performance was horrible for a lot a of time when the trade was made. Credit to the Reds, they saw something in him and he rewarded them with a great 2008 (even though Hamilton was even better). Hindsight says that our chips in 2007 were Dunn and Griffey. We squandered those assets (Nick Masset excepted). That is a fact. Either of them would have netted a better starter than Volquez in 2007 and we would still have Hamilton.

Z-Fly
10-21-2010, 12:43 PM
Hamilton, Stubbs, Bruce. Fahgedaboutit.

I have thought about that before. Who plays where?

RF: Bruce
CF: Stubbs
LF: Hamilton

Hustleman
10-21-2010, 03:24 PM
i gotta at least give edinson a full season after his TJ surgery to see how he recovers

Vottomatic
10-21-2010, 04:54 PM
The trade was suspect from the moment it was made. Despite what you think, most people remember the Reds needed starters badly at the end of 2007. Outside of Arroyo and Harang, our rotation was truly craptastic. Something had to be done. But we had just taken a risk on Hamilton, who far exceeded expectations and everyone thought he was just scraping the surface of what he could do. I mean, just watch the guy play for 10 games and it is clear that he is a special ballplayer. And we traded him for Volquez, who had displayed talend only intermittently, and his performance was horrible for a lot a of time when the trade was made. Credit to the Reds, they saw something in him and he rewarded them with a great 2008 (even though Hamilton was even better). Hindsight says that our chips in 2007 were Dunn and Griffey. We squandered those assets (Nick Masset excepted). That is a fact. Either of them would have netted a better starter than Volquez in 2007 and we would still have Hamilton.

You're kidding, right?

Dunn and Griffey would have netted a better starter than Volquez back in 2007??????????????

Where is the laugh smilie, I need it fast.

I was fine with the trade because I valued pitching and I didn't trust Hamilton not to relapse and blow it again.

malcontent
10-21-2010, 05:35 PM
Krivsky would still be GM if he drafts Lincecum over Stubbs.

Then he's not so desperate for starting pitching and he doesn't deal Hamilton.

Lincecum + Hamilton >> Volquez + Stubbs

Of course, they're a bit more expensive as well.

Red in Atl
10-21-2010, 06:28 PM
You're kidding, right?

Dunn and Griffey would have netted a better starter than Volquez back in 2007??????????????

Where is the laugh smilie, I need it fast.

I was fine with the trade because I valued pitching and I didn't trust Hamilton not to relapse and blow it again.

Exactly...Dunn and Griffey together couldn't have netted a starter better than Volquez.

Always take pitching over hitting. Yes Hamilton is a special player, but I'm in this for the long run. Hamiliton in Cincy this year wouldn't get us into the WS. It still might not get Texas into the WS either btw. But continuing down the path that was laid since Bob bought the club will get us there I believe. And that trade was a block on that path.

The other thing that everyone overlooks is the problems with Hamilton in the clubhouse in Cincy. He gets lots of special attention because of his addictions and he's also turned very religious to help get over them. I don't know why or how exactly, but this was a big turn-off to the other guys who were there.

I think that's the main reason they decided they could live without that bat. Plus Texas demanding him for Volquez and you have a finished trade.

The other thing people overlook is that he seems really happy in Texas and his team mates love him. Same thing with Edinson here. The trade was great for both clubs. It's a rarity in baseball, but here it is.

So just enjoy it and be happy for everyone. Believe me, Volquez will be a monster next year, and then we'll have to debate that we won the trade.

1990REDS
10-21-2010, 06:52 PM
if the rangers make the World series its because of Cliff Lee, not Josh Hamilton.

Krawhitham
10-22-2010, 02:00 AM
I don't think the Lopez/Kearns for Bray/Majewski trade is a bad trade at all. I don't think Lopez or Kearns could have helped this team at all. We won in terms of $$$ and didn't lose anything of value. While it wasn't a great trade, I don't see it as a bad one. More of a non-factor, a nothing.

At the time it was horrible, those two accounted for 40% of the Reds offense at the time of the trade. The Reds were trying to make the playoffs, they lost close to have of the offense and Majewski was a gas can every time he pitched

Krawhitham
10-22-2010, 02:09 AM
It's easy to do the hindsight 20/20 thing now


hindsight? Volquez had never proved he could pitch at the MLB level and to this day he has only had three good months in his whole career which were probably due to the roids.

Phillips and others could not stand Josh and that was why he was moved. Phillips at one point even snapped at a reporter that he did not want to talk about good Josh was doing that he was putting up better numbers that Josh. Others on the team were upset that Josh was always cramming God down their throats

Krawhitham
10-22-2010, 02:10 AM
if the rangers make the World series its because of Cliff Lee, not Josh Hamilton.

But Josh is the main reason they made it to the playoffs in the 1st place

Krawhitham
10-22-2010, 02:21 AM
Exactly...Dunn and Griffey together couldn't have netted a starter better than Volquez.

what are you smoking?


in 07
Jr had 30hr 93 RBI .277 avg
Dunn had 40hr 106rbi .264 avg


Volquez was nothing more than a guy with a 4 ERA in the minors over 6 seasons and a 7 ERA in the majors over 3 seasons?

Texas had given up on him, go back and read the reports out of Texas at the time of the trade

On a side note Volquez came in 4 in the ROY ballot and was not even eligible for the award because he had pitched more that 50 innings

Vottomatic
10-22-2010, 02:49 AM
hindsight? Volquez had never proved he could pitch at the MLB level and to this day he has only had three good months in his whole career which were probably due to the roids.

Phillips and others could not stand Josh and that was why he was moved. Phillips at one point even snapped at a reporter that he did not want to talk about good Josh was doing that he was putting up better numbers that Josh. Others on the team were upset that Josh was always cramming God down their throats

Crack is bad for you.

Volquez came in second or third in the Cy Young vote a couple of years ago when he won 17 games.

Vottomatic
10-22-2010, 02:51 AM
what are you smoking?


in 07
Jr had 30hr 93 RBI .277 avg
Dunn had 40hr 106rbi .264 avg


Volquez was nothing more than a guy with a 4 ERA in the minors over 6 seasons and a 7 ERA in the majors over 3 seasons?

Texas had given up on him, go back and read the reports out of Texas at the time of the trade

On a side note Volquez came in 4 in the ROY ballot and was not even eligible for the award because he had pitched more that 50 innings

Heroin is bad for you too.

What teams have been lining up for KGJ and Dunn, even then? I know for a fact that both went through the waiver wire that year and no team bit at them.

Cleveland gave up on Brandon Phillips too.

I'm sure many teams gave up on HOF pitchers also.

Red in Atl
10-22-2010, 10:44 AM
hindsight? Volquez had never proved he could pitch at the MLB level and to this day he has only had three good months in his whole career which were probably due to the roids.

Phillips and others could not stand Josh and that was why he was moved. Phillips at one point even snapped at a reporter that he did not want to talk about good Josh was doing that he was putting up better numbers that Josh. Others on the team were upset that Josh was always cramming God down their throats

You are a hoot and a holler. I just don't have the energy to reply to most. But taking a fertility drug, after you've had Tommy John surgery a year and a half after your reported "roid raged three months of being a good pitcher" does not add to that said ability to succeed.

Maybe in your time/space continuum it makes sense, but in the real world, you have nothing. So quit spouting BS about Volquez's suspension. He appologized, did the time and it's over. It certainly has never helped him be a better pitcher.

bounty37h
10-22-2010, 12:31 PM
I didn't "like" the trade cause I had followed Josh for so long and know he can be one of the most incredible to ever play the game. But, we also needed pitching so couldnt really complain-the team did what they thought was best for the team at that time.

Hey Meat
10-22-2010, 03:26 PM
if the rangers make the World series its because of Cliff Lee, not Josh Hamilton.

Cliff Lee hasn't hit 4 home runs in the ALCS. Cliff Lee has 2 of the 3 wins yes, but Hamilton has gone yard multiple times and led the Rangers to victory in this series.

CrosleyField
10-27-2010, 01:41 PM
What if Volquez wins the Cy Young next year?

What if Josh Hamilton gets injured?

It was a value for value trade. Not that bad of a deal. Nobody knew Volquez would have to have Tommy John surgery.