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View Full Version : Paul Daugherty tidbit on Votto and Contract



NeilHamburger
10-22-2010, 11:31 AM
* JOEY MIGHT SAY NO... Researching a column for tomorrow’s TM (Traditional Media) on the Votto Issue. I’m hearing that the Reds are very interested in locking him up for four years, at least, but that Votto is not that thrilled. The money to be made after consecutive great seasons is much, much larger than after just 1 great season. At the moment, Votto might prefer to wait, and spin the arbitration wheel, which insiders tell me could land him in the neighborhood of $7 mil, and that’s if he settles.



That's some bad news. If true it means Votto is probably going to the highest bidder. This probably isn't Cincy. If he makes it clear he's going to whoever pays him the most, then the question becomes when do you trade him?

Girevik
10-22-2010, 12:03 PM
It may just be a matter of wanting to have another big time year to use as ammo before negotiating long term with the Reds. If after next year he still doesn't want to discuss it, then you start having those discussions about when to trade him.

brm7675
10-22-2010, 12:23 PM
If I am the Reds and Votto want's no part of a long term deal now then I go to arbitration and then begin looking to deal him for a very strong return. We have to look at this as a buisness and teams like the Reds have to some times do things like this.

Vottomatic
10-22-2010, 05:13 PM
If I am the Reds and Votto want's no part of a long term deal now then I go to arbitration and then begin looking to deal him for a very strong return. We have to look at this as a buisness and teams like the Reds have to some times do things like this.

Well, my username says it all about how I feel about Joey. But if he begins to act like he doesn't want to be a career Red and wants to go to the highest bidder, then I'm done with him.

I hate the Yankees for that reason alone. And I hate all ballplayers who have to have it all. I don't see much difference between $15 million and $25 million per season. But then again, I don't need a million dollar house in 5 cities, 5 yachts, a private jet, and a posse to follow me around either. I could pretty much retire on what many of these overpaid players get for one season of work, once they pass their arbitration years.

I respect players who have a bit of loyalty to the organization that developed them, and believed in them. Take a team discount to allow them to pay for a good supporting cast. Otherwise, go play for New York and be a high-priced bum.

Red in Atl
10-22-2010, 05:33 PM
Before we go bailing on Votto, lets find out the real story. Seems to me he's a perfect fit here. Less media attention, so he can focus on his game. I would think the only way he wants to leave is to go to Toronto one day, and who could blame him for that.

Then we'll get that big payday/return on a great investment. And leave everyone happy. No different than KGJ coming home to Cincy, though I hope Votto has more luck if that's the route he chooses.

aldotcs
10-22-2010, 05:39 PM
I read TML and a full Doc article and it's still all handwringing and speculation. I reserve any opinion I have about what Votto and the Reds will come up after it happens.

brm7675
10-22-2010, 06:56 PM
I don't see much difference between $15 million and $25 million per season.

That would be about $10 million or maybe $50-60 million over a 5-6 year deal. Also, lets be fair, teams have no connections with players either, they will dump players, trade them or such without thought.

redsfanmia
10-22-2010, 07:12 PM
If he is not interested in signing a long term deal then start shopping him, I still say that things will pop up with Votto every season that will cause him to miss two weeks with a seemingly minor issue. The anxiety issues will rear its ugly head at some point as well or he will sleep wrong and won't play because of a stiff neck. I like Votto a lot I just have concerns about these issues and at a certain level I question his toughness.

Natty Redlocks
10-22-2010, 07:24 PM
Well, my username says it all about how I feel about Joey. But if he begins to act like he doesn't want to be a career Red and wants to go to the highest bidder, then I'm done with him.

I hate the Yankees for that reason alone. And I hate all ballplayers who have to have it all. I don't see much difference between $15 million and $25 million per season. But then again, I don't need a million dollar house in 5 cities, 5 yachts, a private jet, and a posse to follow me around either. I could pretty much retire on what many of these overpaid players get for one season of work, once they pass their arbitration years.

I respect players who have a bit of loyalty to the organization that developed them, and believed in them. Take a team discount to allow them to pay for a good supporting cast. Otherwise, go play for New York and be a high-priced bum.

Seriously? Ten million dollars is meaningless? BS.

webbbj
10-22-2010, 07:43 PM
joey votto or no other player for that matter owe the reds anything. its a business at the end of the day and joey should do whats best for him and his family and them only. $10 million is pretty significant and if someone will pay him that much more he should take it just like anyone here would take a 67% pay increase.

and also players are not over payed. just like any other business the market dictates what someone is worth and that is what they should get paid. athletes are entertainers and many pple pay good money to be entertained and that money should go to the main actors who bring the ppl in the seats.

also idk why the hate on the yankees. they have the money to spend b/c of a great tv market, tradition, an owner who wants to spend, highest ticket prices and a full stadium and the owner puts that money back into the team. isnt that the exact same thing you want your owner to do? hate the system not the team. not that the system changing would make things much different. they have a salary cap in the NFL and the same teams are constantly at the top.

aldotcs
10-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Over the long haul, Votto hasn't been out that much with his anxiety. And toughness has nothing to do with how incapacitating panic attacks can be. He's has sinus issues but again, I can't think of him being out long term because of it.
I agree with whomever said that teams don't have loyalty either. It's all a business no matter how attached we can get to players.

scott91575
10-22-2010, 09:47 PM
He saw what happened to Troy Tulowitzki vs. Ryan Howard. Tulo signed a long term deal after one big year (not as big as Votto's, but at a more important position). If he continues to perform at his current level he will be one of the most underpaid players in baseball. On the other hand, Ryan Howard continued to push Philly for more money and not settling during arbitration. Now he is getting HUGE money.

Tulo and Howard are similar level players, but Howard has $180 million locked up, while Tulo only got $31 million guaranteed. Although I admit that is an extreme case, and Tulo signed his to last through much of his arbitration years. Yet he will have a couple of years where he will be severely underpaid.

When a player at Votto's level sees such a huge disparity in guaranteed money you can't blame him for wanting to wait another year or two. I know everyone here wants a player to sign, but this is a business. I can't blame a guy for wanting as much as possible. The only way I would get ticked is if the Reds offer him a substantial contract and he passes on it to take a very similar one at another team.

Want it changed? Don't follow baseball until they institute hard salary caps like football or hockey. Until then, players in baseball will attempt to maximize their earning potential, and teams will pay them. The teams that can't get left in the cold. It is how baseball is set up. As the old saying goes, don't hate the player, hate the game.

AintlifeGrande
10-22-2010, 09:56 PM
He's going to the highest bidder.I gotta hand it to Walt,BCast for the Chapman deal.But Votto will command well over Chapman's deal.Don't for a minute think these players don't pay attention to what ''the other guy''is making.

Krawhitham
10-23-2010, 12:16 AM
Votto is a Reds for at least 3 more years before he can leave. A 4 year deal only gets Joey for one extra year. If Joey wants to wait a season for a 4 year deal good. Wait and you are guaranteed and extra year of Vottomania

Krawhitham
10-23-2010, 12:24 AM
He's going to the highest bidder.I gotta hand it to Walt,BCast for the Chapman deal.But Votto will command well over Chapman's deal.Don't for a minute think these players don't pay attention to what ''the other guy''is making.

Votto is a Red for at least 6 years (3 down already) before he become a FA. Chapman was a FA and was signed for 6 years for 36 million.

Joey has made 1/2 million or less his 1st 3 seasons, he would have to average 11.5 million over the next 3 years to equal Chapman's money.

Votto will not want to go to a large market area, he will not like the pressure

757690
10-23-2010, 02:04 AM
He saw what happened to Troy Tulowitzki vs. Ryan Howard. Tulo signed a long term deal after one big year (not as big as Votto's, but at a more important position). If he continues to perform at his current level he will be one of the most underpaid players in baseball. On the other hand, Ryan Howard continued to push Philly for more money and not settling during arbitration. Now he is getting HUGE money.

Tulo and Howard are similar level players, but Howard has $180 million locked up, while Tulo only got $31 million guaranteed. Although I admit that is an extreme case, and Tulo signed his to last through much of his arbitration years. Yet he will have a couple of years where he will be severely underpaid.

When a player at Votto's level sees such a huge disparity in guaranteed money you can't blame him for wanting to wait another year or two. I know everyone here wants a player to sign, but this is a business. I can't blame a guy for wanting as much as possible. The only way I would get ticked is if the Reds offer him a substantial contract and he passes on it to take a very similar one at another team.

Want it changed? Don't follow baseball until they institute hard salary caps like football or hockey. Until then, players in baseball will attempt to maximize their earning potential, and teams will pay them. The teams that can't get left in the cold. It is how baseball is set up. As the old saying goes, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Tulo signed with the Rockies, who have similar budget restraints as the Reds. Howard signed with the Phillies, who don't mind overpaying for players that they want.

The Phillies signed Raul Ibanez to a absurd 3 year, $31M contract. They gave Halladay a 3 year $60M extension. They gave Brad Lidge a 3 year $37M contract. The Phillies pay above market for whoever they want. That is why Howard got such a huge contract. I don't think even the Yankees give him that contract. lol

The reason why Howard got such a outrageous contract, was because the Phillies just don't care. Howard's contract did not set a market, just like Ibanez's contract didn't when he signed his. Actually, right after Ibanez signed his, Burrell and Dunn had to settle for big pay cuts.

scott91575
10-23-2010, 04:28 AM
Tulo signed with the Rockies, who have similar budget restraints as the Reds. Howard signed with the Phillies, who don't mind overpaying for players that they want.

The Phillies signed Raul Ibanez to a absurd 3 year, $31M contract. They gave Halladay a 3 year $60M extension. They gave Brad Lidge a 3 year $37M contract. The Phillies pay above market for whoever they want. That is why Howard got such a huge contract. I don't think even the Yankees give him that contract. lol

The reason why Howard got such a outrageous contract, was because the Phillies just don't care. Howard's contract did not set a market, just like Ibanez's contract didn't when he signed his. Actually, right after Ibanez signed his, Burrell and Dunn had to settle for big pay cuts.

While some of that may be true for Howard, Tulo could have gotten much more out of Colorado if he waited a couple of years. You can also look to Pujols for a guy that could be making way more if he waited a little longer before signing a long term deal with his team. He didn't get much above what arbitration would have given him in those first few years, and for the past 4, soon to be 5 has been heavily underpaid. He will average about $15 million for 5 years (all which would have been outside arbitration). That is a heck of a deal for him. Certainly security is nice, but signing a long term deal while in arbitration often leads to being underpaid for most of the contract. Votto and his agent know that, and feel waiting means tens of millions more (assuming he doesn't have a devastating injury).

Vottomatic
10-23-2010, 04:35 AM
Seriously? Ten million dollars is meaningless? BS.

It isn't BS, when it comes to me.

Winning means more than money to me. Success means more than money to me.

A good baseball player will make alot of money no matter what. But the supporting cast will determine the chances of success of the team overall.

I'd take less to have a good supporting cast and put a few rings on my finger, than break the bank and have no supporting cast and no rings on my finger.

Not kidding.

$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????

And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.

This argument always pisses me off.

scott91575
10-23-2010, 02:10 PM
It isn't BS, when it comes to me.

Winning means more than money to me. Success means more than money to me.

A good baseball player will make alot of money no matter what. But the supporting cast will determine the chances of success of the team overall.

I'd take less to have a good supporting cast and put a few rings on my finger, than break the bank and have no supporting cast and no rings on my finger.

Not kidding.

$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????

And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.

This argument always pisses me off.

and a team that can afford to pay $25 million a year will normally have the better supporting cast.

AintlifeGrande
10-23-2010, 05:32 PM
It isn't BS, when it comes to me.

Winning means more than money to me. Success means more than money to me.

A good baseball player will make alot of money no matter what. But the supporting cast will determine the chances of success of the team overall.

I'd take less to have a good supporting cast and put a few rings on my finger, than break the bank and have no supporting cast and no rings on my finger.

Not kidding.

$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.
This argument always pisses me off.


You don't need it,but if you can get it you take it.Sadly today the players dictate market value.It's a business,and in any business making the most money is paramount to all things.

757690
10-23-2010, 06:40 PM
It isn't BS, when it comes to me.

Winning means more than money to me. Success means more than money to me.

A good baseball player will make alot of money no matter what. But the supporting cast will determine the chances of success of the team overall.

I'd take less to have a good supporting cast and put a few rings on my finger, than break the bank and have no supporting cast and no rings on my finger.

Not kidding.

$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????

And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.

This argument always pisses me off.

I completely agree with you. I think it's obscene the way agents claim they are being insulted by a $80M offer.

But the union will not allow players to take too much of a hometown discount. With arbitration, every big contract that an all-star signs, translates into raises for everyone. You really can't blame the union for making sure that their players get their fair cut of the pie. It's not like the owners are crying poor.

But I feel the exact same way as you. If it was me, I would play wherever I would be happiest, not who gives me the most money.

Vottomatic
10-23-2010, 09:11 PM
I completely agree with you. I think it's obscene the way agents claim they are being insulted by a $80M offer.

But the union will not allow players to take too much of a hometown discount. With arbitration, every big contract that an all-star signs, translates into raises for everyone. You really can't blame the union for making sure that their players get their fair cut of the pie. It's not like the owners are crying poor.

But I feel the exact same way as you. If it was me, I would play wherever I would be happiest, not who gives me the most money.

:beerme:

Well said.

I guess if a guy likes New York City, go for it.

Personally, I like the smaller town atmosphere........and Cincinnati has proven over and over again to be a great town to raise a family. And the cost of living is cheaper here than in the big cities.

webbbj
10-23-2010, 11:18 PM
or he could go to NY, boston, LA get paid what hes worth and be on a winning team. why settle for less than what he is worth when he can get the money he deserves and win at the same time?

New York Red
10-25-2010, 12:55 AM
I gave up on loyalty when the Big Red Machine broke up. The Reds are never going to be able to always keep homegrown talent, or trade for it/acquire it the way organizations like the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets and Phillies do. The game is a business, and has been for a long time now. If Votto doesn't want to stay with the Reds - and he'll have to settle for less money at some point in order to do so - then we'll just have to suck it up and say goodbye. But if it has to happen, we need to make a good and fair trade. Not watch him walk away and hope a young prospect can quickly fill his shoes.

New York Red
10-25-2010, 01:02 AM
I completely agree with you. I think it's obscene the way agents claim they are being insulted by a $80M offer.

But the union will not allow players to take too much of a hometown discount. With arbitration, every big contract that an all-star signs, translates into raises for everyone. You really can't blame the union for making sure that their players get their fair cut of the pie. It's not like the owners are crying poor.

But I feel the exact same way as you. If it was me, I would play wherever I would be happiest, not who gives me the most money.
I think a lot of us can say that, and mean it, but the bottom line is we aren't in these guys' shoes. Joey Votto isn't from Cincinnati - he isn't even from this country. And he hasn't been here long enough to be so rooted in this area for it to hurt him to leave. He would likely take less money to play for his home team Blue Jays. Maybe Joey doesn't feel that way, but we also can't assume he feels the same way many of us feel who have called Reds country home for much, or all, of our lives. I wish these players thought as we do, but we've seen it proven time after time that they don't. It sucks for us lifelong fans, but it is what it is.

Caveman Techie
10-25-2010, 07:44 AM
:beerme:

Well said.

I guess if a guy likes New York City, go for it.

Personally, I like the smaller town atmosphere........and Cincinnati has proven over and over again to be a great town to raise a family. And the cost of living is cheaper here than in the big cities.

I'm from this city and to tell you the truth, if it wasn't for my son and my family being in this area, I wouldn't stay. Cincinnati can't get out of it's own way long enough to get anything done.

You say it has small town atmosphere and charm. I just don't see it. I have lived all over the world from Green Bay, WI to Charleston, SC to Dallas TX, to Frankfurt Germany and Cincinnati is by far one of the worst cities I have ever lived in. I mean my God it has taken this city 15 years to figure out what the hell to do with the Banks, meanwhile Newport on the Levee was busy developing and stealing business across the river to a different tax municipality.

The one time I had hope for this city was back when the light-rail was on the ballot, but yet again the people couldn't foresee how mass transit was going to help them out. Yet those same people were the ones screaming about gas when it hit 4.00$ per gallon. Here is a clue Cincinnati, businesses will not come to a city where there is no infrastructure built up, mass transit is one of those infrastructure items that they look for when deciding where to relocate and if you don't have it, then you get eliminated.

Nothing would please me more than this city to drop the whole "small town mentality" and start thinking a little larger scale. Fun fact in 1900 Cincinnati was the 10th largest city in the United States. In 2005, we didn't even crack the top 50.

Girevik
10-25-2010, 10:24 AM
Seriously? Ten million dollars is meaningless? BS.

I think the point is what can you buy if you make $25M that you just can't afford with $15M? If money is your goal then I have no problem with getting all you can, but I agree with the point where once you have a certian amount of money getting more really doesn't improve your quality of life any more.

nmculbreth
10-25-2010, 01:02 PM
I think what some posters fail to realize is that trying to compare Tulowitzki's 6 yr. / $31 mil deal with Howard's 5 yr / $125mil deal is like trying to compare apples to oranges.

First and foremost, Tulowitzki signed his deal after only one full season in the big leagues and it basically just covers his pre-arbitration and arbitration years. That isn't to say that the deal hasn't offered good value vs. what it would have cost the Rockies had they opted to go year-to-year with arbitration but you can't discount the value of the financial certainty offered by signing a LTC vs. going year-to-year for the player. Either way, Tulowitzki was going to be playing in Colorado.

By comparison, the deal Howard recently signed replaced free agency years and as a result the club had to pay full market value (or over market value) to retain his services.

In regards to Joey Votto, in all likelihood they've lost the opportunity to lock him up long term for a club friendly price. When you look at the players who signed LTCs for under market value (Tulowitzki, Longoria) the common denominator is that they were signed early in the player's career. The Reds foolishly decided not to do so with Votto and to a lesser extent Bruce and they are going to be stuck dealing with the consequences of those decisions. IMHO, it's incredibly unfair to blame Votto for wanting to get paid fair value after getting to his arbitration years.

New York Red
10-25-2010, 02:34 PM
I'm from this city and to tell you the truth, if it wasn't for my son and my family being in this area, I wouldn't stay. Cincinnati can't get out of it's own way long enough to get anything done.

You say it has small town atmosphere and charm. I just don't see it. I have lived all over the world from Green Bay, WI to Charleston, SC to Dallas TX, to Frankfurt Germany and Cincinnati is by far one of the worst cities I have ever lived in. I mean my God it has taken this city 15 years to figure out what the hell to do with the Banks, meanwhile Newport on the Levee was busy developing and stealing business across the river to a different tax municipality.

The one time I had hope for this city was back when the light-rail was on the ballot, but yet again the people couldn't foresee how mass transit was going to help them out. Yet those same people were the ones screaming about gas when it hit 4.00$ per gallon. Here is a clue Cincinnati, businesses will not come to a city where there is no infrastructure built up, mass transit is one of those infrastructure items that they look for when deciding where to relocate and if you don't have it, then you get eliminated.

Nothing would please me more than this city to drop the whole "small town mentality" and start thinking a little larger scale. Fun fact in 1900 Cincinnati was the 10th largest city in the United States. In 2005, we didn't even crack the top 50.
Excellent post. :beerme:

FlyerFanatic
10-25-2010, 04:02 PM
its not about votto needing more money, his agent is going to play the bigger role in all this. the more money votto gets, the bigger percentage/money the agent gets of the pie. its not a-rod needs the ridiculous amount he got, boras wants more for his percentage. that and like someone else said, you dont need that much money at a certain point, but if someone is willing to offer it, you're going to take it.

RadfordVA
10-25-2010, 04:43 PM
$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????

And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.

This argument always pisses me off.

Thats one more generation of your family that will be taken care of for the most part. Nothing wrong with someone taking 20 million more dollars haha

will5979
10-25-2010, 06:24 PM
If Joey is going to be a pecker regarding this situation then screw em. He is my favorite Red but he does seem to have an attitude problem, he should be thankful that a team is wanting to sign him long term and make him their franchise player. I'd give my left nut to be a major league ballplayer let alone one that stands to make millions and a franchise player that a team is willing to build around me, who does he think he is? I swear people are just too damn greedy in this world. If we lose him due to the money issue then I seriously may consider giving up watching MLB ever again. I'm sorry but situations like this just makes me mad.

Jefferson24
10-26-2010, 09:59 AM
Don't forget the Reds picked Votto. Some players develop an attachment with the team that drafts them and brings them up through their system, some do not. Some players look at it just like it is a job. Would most of us change employers if the pay were better maybe even 20-30% better.

At this point Votto is just keeping his options open, I can't blame him. If he hasn't developed an emotional attachment yet then he's not going to and he will leave or be traded. I hope he chooses to stay and is open to a LTC if it is reasonable.

Keep in mind as fans our perspective is not the same as the players. We will follow the Reds many of us for the remainder of our lives. As for the players, they will treat it like a job and a short lived job at that. They only have a few years to position themselves for the rest of their lives.

Do I think that the players make too much money? You bet I do. Do I think they could get by on a fraction on their pay? Sure they could. Would I play it any different if I were in their shoes? I doubt it.

krm1580
10-26-2010, 01:44 PM
It isn't BS, when it comes to me.

Winning means more than money to me. Success means more than money to me.

A good baseball player will make alot of money no matter what. But the supporting cast will determine the chances of success of the team overall.

I'd take less to have a good supporting cast and put a few rings on my finger, than break the bank and have no supporting cast and no rings on my finger.

Not kidding.

$80 million dollar contract versus $100 million dollar contract. WHAT FRICKIN' DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE. You can't live on $80 million dollars? You need that extra $20 million for what?????????? Explain to me exactly what you need that extra $20 million for??????

And frankly, if you need it, there is something seriously wrong with you.

This argument always pisses me off.

From a rational point of view you are correct. The universe of things available to you does not expand greatly when you bump from 80 mil to 100 mil.

The problem is people are not rational when it comes to money. There have been numerous studies that indicate people are happy when making X dollars. However they are unhappy with the same amount of money when they find out others are making more.

Throw in the fact you have agents pushing to make as much as they can and it really creates a problem.

gedred69
10-26-2010, 08:22 PM
Oh for a Joe Mauer! Give the home team a discount to stay......

scott91575
10-28-2010, 09:19 AM
Oh for a Joe Mauer! Give the home team a discount to stay......

You consider 8 years, $184 million a discount? He will be the 3rd highest paid player in baseball next year.

Stray
10-28-2010, 03:23 PM
There is nothing wrong with wanting to maximize your paycheck, and I don't see any reason to hold that against him. It would be cool if he gave us a discount because he wanted to stay here, but if what he's going to make is more than we can pay then he'll have to move on. It's a business.

lonewolf371
10-30-2010, 10:30 AM
Also keep in mind he's producing like crazy right now for relative peanuts. In whatever big deal he gets, he's going to want to cash in on future years as well as past ones in which he was paid less.

For instance, this season Votto had a WAR of 6.2. Based on 2008 numbers (they'd be higher, now), that would translate into a season worth $27.6 million dollars. Votto made $526,000 dollars. Clearly, the Reds are getting a massive bargain off Votto at the moment, and I'm sure Votto would be interested in getting paid to his full value. I'm a free-market guy, and will never fault someone for trying to get their full value.

mo_money
10-30-2010, 12:40 PM
The only leverage the Reds have right now of signing Joey long term is to offer him a fair long term contract but put a deadline on it as far as long the offer is good until (This offseason). You can't blame Joey for wanting to maximize his earnings but if we go year to year for the next 3 years in arbitration and he gets hurt, he could lose money. I would say offer a fair long term contract and if he declines then let him know the Reds will then go to arbitration with him every year. Then at that point midway through his last arbitration year, if you can't get him signed, trade him. We got burnt with others not trading them before it was too late. We need to get that mentality. We aren't a large market $ team so it should be 3 - 4 years and out with our talent if they don't want to sign a reasonable long term contract. I see Brandon Phillips in that territory now.

mroby85
10-30-2010, 01:56 PM
The only leverage the Reds have right now of signing Joey long term is to offer him a fair long term contract but put a deadline on it as far as long the offer is good until (This offseason). You can't blame Joey for wanting to maximize his earnings but if we go year to year for the next 3 years in arbitration and he gets hurt, he could lose money. I would say offer a fair long term contract and if he declines then let him know the Reds will then go to arbitration with him every year. Then at that point midway through his last arbitration year, if you can't get him signed, trade him. We got burnt with others not trading them before it was too late. We need to get that mentality. We aren't a large market $ team so it should be 3 - 4 years and out with our talent if they don't want to sign a reasonable long term contract. I see Brandon Phillips in that territory now.

While I understand your logic, and agree for the most part, Joey Votto is a different animal in my opinion. I don't disagree with your mentality for the vast majority of players, but I think Votto is the exception to the rule. When you get a talent like him, he needs to be locked up, period.

redsfan_12
10-31-2010, 10:46 PM
While I understand your logic, and agree for the most part, Joey Votto is a different animal in my opinion. I don't disagree with your mentality for the vast majority of players, but I think Votto is the exception to the rule. When you get a talent like him, he needs to be locked up, period.

ditto.

Girevik
11-03-2010, 12:51 PM
While I understand your logic, and agree for the most part, Joey Votto is a different animal in my opinion. I don't disagree with your mentality for the vast majority of players, but I think Votto is the exception to the rule. When you get a talent like him, he needs to be locked up, period.

Unless it means that you have to let all your pitchers, along with Bruce, walk when they hit FA, or trade them when they hit arbitration. I love Votto, but he's not gonna win a WS by himself.

AintlifeGrande
11-04-2010, 10:37 PM
I heard he was a Boras client,any truth?

New York Red
11-04-2010, 11:56 PM
While I understand your logic, and agree for the most part, Joey Votto is a different animal in my opinion. I don't disagree with your mentality for the vast majority of players, but I think Votto is the exception to the rule. When you get a talent like him, he needs to be locked up, period.
I'm pretty sure that's how most Reds fans feel. But can/will the Reds do it? We've been down this road many times before. However, with the ownership/front office personnel the Reds currently have in place, I am more optimistic than I would've been five or ten years ago. I just wish we were putting more fans in the seats, which would make the decision easier. But I understand that side of the coin too. This is the small market baseball world we live in. Sigh.

scott91575
11-05-2010, 12:35 AM
I heard he was a Boras client,any truth?

I believe his agent is Dan Lozano (same agent as Albert Pujols, and recent Red Orlando Cabrera). He recently left his agency to go out on his own, thanks in part to his growing stable of players, and of course huge future growth with a guy like Votto.

edit: link....http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2010/06/02/dan-lozano-leaves-beverly-hills-sports-council-takes-entire-stable-of-mlb-players-with-him/

MikeThierry
11-10-2010, 10:53 PM
Votto is clearly a guy you can build a team around. At the time when Walt signed Pujols to the largest contract in team history, it was criticized by some fans in St. Louis. However if you look at the numbers involved, the Cards actually probably saved money and it may have been one of the best contracts in Cardinals history if you consider what Pujols did during the length of his contract.

I think the Reds should "overpay" and give him a $15-$20 million dollar a year contract (with incentives of course). The contract should probably be a 6-8 year contract (like with Pujols). It may seem like a lot now but knowing what the trend is in baseball, it will probably be a bargain 3-5 years from now.

The bottom line is the Reds should not screw around here since they have an opportunity to be competitive in the central for years to come. He is your Pujols and should be treated like him. This is actually almost a no brainier the more I think about it.

David Cubbedge
11-16-2010, 05:51 PM
Bruce is indeed open to a longterm deal...