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View Full Version : What's wrong with these guys?



brm7675
10-22-2010, 01:34 PM
I keep reading where there are some here who believe we need to go out and get an "ACE" the likes of say Zack G. of the Royals, or Felix H. of the M's. My question is why? How do we not know if we don't already have that here? Given the ages of our pitchers, they all have shown incredible ability and there is no reason they won't improve. I would like to hear why people don't think Leake, Wood, Cueto, Volquez can't be "ace" material very soon?

Vottomatic
10-22-2010, 03:20 PM
I keep reading where there are some here who believe we need to go out and get an "ACE" the likes of say Zack G. of the Royals, or Felix H. of the M's. My question is why? How do we not know if we don't already have that here? Given the ages of our pitchers, they all have shown incredible ability and there is no reason they won't improve. I would like to hear why people don't think Leake, Wood, Cueto, Volquez can't be "ace" material very soon?

Right now they're all #2 and #3 type pitchers. We need an ace.

Could they emerge as #1's eventually? Sure. Anything is possible.

GOBCU33
10-22-2010, 03:49 PM
As far as 2011 goes, we dont have a #1 starter and I think that is what everyone is calling for...

I'd like to see our money be spent elsewhere

brm7675
10-22-2010, 04:11 PM
Right now they're all #2 and #3 type pitchers. We need an ace.

Could they emerge as #1's eventually? Sure. Anything is possible.

How many true ACE's are there in the league? Instead of trading for something we very possibily already have, why not go after something we don't have and improve a true weakness on this team.

brm7675
10-22-2010, 04:11 PM
What is a No. 1 starter?

Hey Meat
10-22-2010, 04:23 PM
What is a No. 1 starter?
One that we don't have. For instance a; C.C Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Carpenter, Tim Lincecum, Roy Halladay, etc.

brm7675
10-22-2010, 04:47 PM
One that we don't have. For instance a; C.C Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Carpenter, Tim Lincecum, Roy Halladay, etc.

Okay that is 5 you listed, how many more ACE's would you say are out there and on top of that available? Because only Lee is going to be a FA and they are already fitting him for a Yankees uniform.

Hey Meat
10-22-2010, 04:53 PM
Okay that is 5 you listed, how many more ACE's would you say are out there and on top of that available? Because only Lee is going to be a FA and they are already fitting him for a Yankees uniform.

I don't know how many are available. You were just asking what a number 1 starter is. So I will continue; Greinke, Zambrano, Myers, Tim Hudson, Etc.

bounty37h
10-22-2010, 05:06 PM
Ok, think you just went overboard once you got to Zambrano. He was on pace toe a legit #1 type of guy, but that spot also has mental stability, which Z doesn't appear to have, and has shown with his decline. I see Cueto and Vol in similar boat, think they have #1 talent possibly as far as physical game, but dont know if either has mental side to pick self up and adjust batter to batter, game to game....

757690
10-22-2010, 05:24 PM
Right now they're all #2 and #3 type pitchers. We need an ace.

Could they emerge as #1's eventually? Sure. Anything is possible.

Cueto, Volquez and Bailey all have the stuff to be #1's. Cueto and Bailey are about to hit the age when pitchers mature, and Volquez is coming off an injury.

I think Leake and Wood could be #1 starters. They clearly have the brains and guts to be one, and their stuff is nothing to sneeze at. They both throw low 90's and have a ton of movement. Carpenter, Halladay, Lee, Wainwright, all throw around as fast as Leake and Wood.

And let's not forget Chapman. I think 100 MPH with control and a killer slider, puts him in the likley Ace category.

I wouldn't put one of these six guys becoming Aces in the "anything's possible" category. I would put it in the "highly probable" category.

757690
10-22-2010, 05:26 PM
What is a No. 1 starter?

For this argument, it's someone who can go toe to toe with Halladay, Lee, Carpenter, CC, Wainwright and the like, in the first game of a playoff series.

Vottomatic
10-22-2010, 06:03 PM
What is a No. 1 starter?

Let's ask one of the great philosophers.

brm7675
10-22-2010, 06:25 PM
I don't know how many are available. You were just asking what a number 1 starter is. So I will continue; Greinke, Zambrano, Myers, Tim Hudson, Etc.

Zambrano? Really

Myers who?

Hudson had a nice year this year, but an "ACE', not really in my opinion.

webbbj
10-22-2010, 06:47 PM
imo ACE is a guy that goes 7+ under 3 runs almost every time. an ace is someone that can get to those marks even w/o his best stuff. an ace is someone that can matchup w/ any player in the league and can match them pitch for pitch.

I kinda agree w/ the OP in that our ACE may already be on the roster. I have no issues going after one in the offseason but i dont think theres anything wrong w/ waiting till the trade deadline to see if one of our guys emerges as the guy. if no one does then i think you can go after that ACE similarly how the rangers did this year.

right now the reds are a good regular season team so we would only need that ACE for half the season and the difference maker in the playoffs.

kfm
10-23-2010, 05:06 PM
Nothing is wrong with these guys. There is also nothing wrong with looking to add a guy who is already established to be an ace. I however, think the offense is the main problem. This team allowed four earned runs against the philies in the first inning and a third and allowed three earned runs the rest of the series. Yet they were no hit and shut out twice in three games. Seems like the biggest problem is the inability to hit TOR pitching. That is why we struggled so badly against the best teams in the league. Look at the best pitchers on the best teams and they have dominated the reds. I see a lot of young pitching that could turn into TOR guys but outside of Votto and Bruce, I don't see the offensive guys who will allow them to truly compete with the big boys. Seems like we need to go get or develop more hitters who do not just destroy middle of the road or bad pitching but give the team a fighting chance against the best pitchers in the league.

Vottomatic
10-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Team by team, best starting pitchers. Doesn't mean they are #1's though:

AL East:
Rays
David Price - 2.72 ERA, 19-6
Yankees
CC Sabathia - 3.18, 21-7
Red Sox
Clay Buchholz - 2.33, 17-7
Jon Lester - 3.25, 19-9 (208 IP, 167 hits allowed)
Blue Jays
Shaun Marcum (13-8, 3.64) and Ricky Romero (14-9, 3.73)? Up and comers but not there yet.
Orioles
Jeremy Guthrie is not a #1 (11-14, 3.83)

AL Central:
Twins
Brian Duensing - 2.62, 13-10 (only his second season in the big leagues)
Francisco Liriano - 3.62, 14-10
White Sox
John Danks - 3.72, 15-11
Tigers
Justin Verlander - 3.37, 18-9
Indians
Fausto Carmona - 3.77, 13-14
Royals
Zach Greinke - 4.17, 10-14

AL West
Rangers
CJ Wilson - 3.35, 15-8
Colby Lewis - 3.72, 12-13 (201 IP, 174 hits allowed)
Tommy Hunter - 3.73, 13-4
Cliff Lee - 3.98, 4-6
Athletics
Trevor Cahill - 2.97, 18-8 (196 IP, 155 hits allowed)
Gio Gonzalez - 3.23, 15-9 (200 IP, 171 hits allowed)
Dallas Braden - 3.50, 11-14
Angels
Dan Haren - 2.87, 5-4
Jered Weaver - 3.01, 13-12
Mariners
Felix Hernandez - 2.27, 13-12 (250 IP, 194 hits allowed)

NL East
Phillies
Roy Oswalt - 1.74, 7-1
Roy Halladay - 2.44, 21-10
Cole Hamels - 3.06, 12-11
Braves
Tim Hudson - 2.83, 17-9
Tommy Hanson - 3.33, 10-11
Marlins
Josh Johnson - 2.30, 11-6
Anibel Sanchez - 3.55, 13-12
Mets
R.A. Dickey - 2.84, 11-9
Johan Santana - 2.98, 11-9
Nationals
Stephen Strasburg - 2.91, 5-3

NL Central
Reds
Travis Wood - 3.51, 5-4
Johnny Cueto - 3.64, 12-7
Bronson Arroyo - 3.88, 17-10
Mike Leake - 4.23, 8-4
Edison Volquez - 4.31, 4-3
Homer Bailey - 4.46, 4-3
Cardinals
Adam Wainwright - 2.42, 20-11
Jaime Garcia - 2.70, 13-8
Chris Carpenter - 3.22, 16-9
Brewers
Yovani Gallardo - 3.84, 14-7

I ran out of time. I will finish later.

Kingspoint
10-24-2010, 01:43 PM
I keep reading where there are some here who believe we need to go out and get an "ACE" the likes of say Zack G. of the Royals, or Felix H. of the M's. My question is why? How do we not know if we don't already have that here? Given the ages of our pitchers, they all have shown incredible ability and there is no reason they won't improve. I would like to hear why people don't think Leake, Wood, Cueto, Volquez can't be "ace" material very soon?

While I'd do anything and everything to get Felix Hernandez, I agree with you that our "Ace" may already be on the team.

PedroBourbon
10-24-2010, 02:12 PM
I am content with our abundance of young talent. I think most teams would rather have a surplus of emerging guys like we do than spend a fortune on a big name ace pitcher. The Reds may very well already have the next ace pitcher in their staff in Cueto, Wood, Leake, Bailey, and Chapman. Being a small market team we will never have the payroll to have a staff like the Phils and Yanks and must rely on our farm system which is starting to pay off. Spend the money on a LF bat or leadoff hitter/SB threat. (Or save it to retain Votto who will eventually command a huge salary!)

Krawhitham
10-24-2010, 06:00 PM
I keep reading where there are some here who believe we need to go out and get an "ACE" the likes of say Zack G. of the Royals, or Felix H. of the M's. My question is why? How do we not know if we don't already have that here? Given the ages of our pitchers, they all have shown incredible ability and there is no reason they won't improve. I would like to hear why people don't think Leake, Wood, Cueto, Volquez can't be "ace" material very soon?

Wood or Cueto will emerge next season as a true ACE

Kiss the Baby00
10-26-2010, 12:25 AM
Zambrano? Really

Myers who?

Hudson had a nice year this year, but an "ACE', not really in my opinion.
zambrano was 11-6 w a 3.33 era this season for the cubs in 20 starts.

lonewolf371
10-26-2010, 12:40 AM
zambrano was 11-6 w a 3.33 era this season for the cubs in 20 starts.
That's pretty good.

I'd count a true #1 as someone that can go toe-to-toe with any pitcher in the league. As such, there are very few of them. Right now they probably include:

Cliff Lee
Roy Halladay
Tim Lincecum
CC Sabathia
Jon Lester
David Price
Josh Johnson
Justin Verlander
Felix Hernandez

I don't know if I'd add any after that. Greinke was at that status last year, but regressed heavily this year.

I'm not sure I see any of the Reds current pitchers emerging as such a pitcher.

webbbj
10-26-2010, 10:56 AM
i understand the need for an ace pitcher but i dont think its absolutely necessary, it helps but a team can win it all w/ out one. if i recall the angels won the WS w/ jon lackey as their #1.

Now thats only 1 example in the past 10 years. I think if the reds can have the best #2 and #3 and #4 starters in the league they can win a WS w/ that. I remember cliff lee only won 1 game for the rangers in the ALCS. Halladay was giving up 3-4 runs in those NLCS games and surely the reds can compete w/ that. Why i think they need a legit bat b/c i dont think anyone really fears our lineup considering where it ranked.

lonewolf371
10-26-2010, 09:40 PM
i understand the need for an ace pitcher but i dont think its absolutely necessary, it helps but a team can win it all w/ out one. if i recall the angels won the WS w/ jon lackey as their #1.

Now thats only 1 example in the past 10 years. I think if the reds can have the best #2 and #3 and #4 starters in the league they can win a WS w/ that. I remember cliff lee only won 1 game for the rangers in the ALCS. Halladay was giving up 3-4 runs in those NLCS games and surely the reds can compete w/ that. Why i think they need a legit bat b/c i dont think anyone really fears our lineup considering where it ranked.
Jarrod Washburn? 3.15 ERA, 18-6 as a starter? 4th in Cy Young voting?

But maybe not a #1 like the other guys we've been talking about.

Captain13
10-27-2010, 04:15 PM
What is a No. 1 starter?

I would say one of the 30 best starters in MLB. An ace, on the other hand, may be defined differently, but I would say a #1 is one of the top 30, a 2 or 3 would be 31-90, a 4 91-120 and a fifth starter is anyone worse than that.

By my definition, Bronson would be a #1, but not necessarily an ace. :cool: