Cliff Lee: a pet peeve

[Brutus]

Today, Cliff Lee said he would "love to be" part of the Rangers next season. He said it was a possibility.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=5754679

Where my pet peeve comes in...


"I like this team. It's a very fun team to play on," Lee said. "I expect this team to do some really good things next year. I don't know if I'm going to be a part of it or not. To be honest with you, I would love to be, but so many things can happen. You never know."

No one is stopping you, Cliff. Clearly the Rangers are willing to sign you. Just come out and say it depends on who offers the most money.

I am fine with athletes going for the dollar. Whatever floats their boats. But just come out and admit it. Don't give all the lip service about wanting to play somewhere, but act like it's out of your control. It's only out of control to the extent whether or not the money meets your demands.

Anyhow, sorry for the soap box. I really don't care one way or another if a player goes for the money. But just be honest about it. This whole, "I'd love to be part of it but many things can happen," stuff... usually just one thing can happen. Either you want to sign on the dotted line or you don't. All your call, Cliffy.

[Boss-Hog]

I read that quote and thought exactly the same thing.

[westofyou]

YouTube - JERRY MAGUIRE (Tom Cruise) - SHOW ME THE MONEY (clean edit) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA)

[jojo]

Today, Cliff Lee said he would "love to be" part of the Rangers next season. He said it was a possibility.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=5754679

Where my pet peeve comes in...



No one is stopping you, Cliff. Clearly the Rangers are willing to sign you. Just come out and say it depends on who offers the most money.

I am fine with athletes going for the dollar. Whatever floats their boats. But just come out and admit it. Don't give all the lip service about wanting to play somewhere, but act like it's out of your control. It's only out of control to the extent whether or not the money meets your demands.

Anyhow, sorry for the soap box. I really don't care one way or another if a player goes for the money. But just be honest about it. This whole, "I'd love to be part of it but many things can happen," stuff... usually just one thing can happen. Either you want to sign on the dotted line or you don't. All your call, Cliffy.

To be fair, the Rangers have to offer a contract.

[Rojo]

Doesn't bother me. There's a word for not saying everything you mean all the time: society.

[Orenda]

Today, Cliff Lee said he would "love to be" part of the Rangers next season. He said it was a possibility.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=5754679

Where my pet peeve comes in...



No one is stopping you, Cliff. Clearly the Rangers are willing to sign you. Just come out and say it depends on who offers the most money.

I am fine with athletes going for the dollar. Whatever floats their boats. But just come out and admit it. Don't give all the lip service about wanting to play somewhere, but act like it's out of your control. It's only out of control to the extent whether or not the money meets your demands.

Anyhow, sorry for the soap box. I really don't care one way or another if a player goes for the money. But just be honest about it. This whole, "I'd love to be part of it but many things can happen," stuff... usually just one thing can happen. Either you want to sign on the dotted line or you don't. All your call, Cliffy.

Do you really think he will only go to the highest bidder regardless of who it is? The way I read that quote is, that he likes the Rangers but isn't going to give them a huge discount off his market value.

[Brutus]

To be fair, the Rangers have to offer a contract.

If Cliff Lee wants to re-sign with the Rangers, it would take one phone call and they'd have something drawn up for him by the next day.

You and I both know that, as does he.

[Brutus]

Do you really think he will only go to the highest bidder regardless of who it is? The way I read that quote is, that he likes the Rangers but isn't going to give them a huge discount off his market value.

Since we all know who's likely to offer the most, it's probably tomato/tom-ah-to.

[mbgrayson]

Do you really think he will only go to the highest bidder regardless of who it is? The way I read that quote is, that he likes the Rangers but isn't going to give them a huge discount off his market value.

Exactly right. And its probably more about the total amount of the contract than just the annual amount. In other words, if the Rangers offer him $12 million a year for two years, and the Yankees offer him $12 million a year for three years, he will go with the Yankees....

I don't blame Lee for being coy. It would hurt his image to just blatantly say "Show me the money", and image=money for these guys. What kind of endorsements will you get if you are portrayed by the Texas press as being greedy? I think he is smart to respond as he did.

[Brutus]

Exactly right. And its probably more about the total amount of the contract than just the annual amount. In other words, if the Rangers offer him $12 million a year for two years, and the Yankees offer him $12 million a year for three years, he will go with the Yankees....

I don't blame Lee for being coy. It would hurt his image to just blatantly say "Show me the money", and image=money for these guys. What kind of endorsements will you get if you are portrayed by the Texas press as being greedy? I think he is smart to respond as he did.

Does it really help anything? His statement is pretty transparent to most. No one here is really fooled by his intent. All he's doing is sounding ridiculous, IMHO.

If he truly wants to sign with someone, everyone knows that, if the team wants him (and the Rangers themselves have said they do), then he can make that happen.

Edit: Here's a case in point...Hal Steinbrenner on whether they want Derek Jeter back:

"We absolutely want him back. But having said that, we're running a business here, so if there's a deal to be done, it's going to have to be a deal that both sides are happy with."

That's the kind of answer that is honest and respectful.

[savafan]

In Lee's defense...perhaps, isn't there an ownership situation to be worked out in Texas?

[jojo]

If Cliff Lee wants to re-sign with the Rangers, it would take one phone call and they'd have something drawn up for him by the next day.

You and I both know that, as does he.

Cliff Lee can't name his price so it's a bit of an unfair standard IMHO. That's kind of a pet peeve of mine... :D

[Tom Servo]

I've pretty much gotten used to this kind of talk by now and it really doesn't much bother me anymore.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Do we know if Cliff Lee will be (is being) "pressured" by his union brothers? Pretty powerful union. Didn't we hear that CC Sabathia was being pressured to do the right thing for his brothers by taking the highest offer despite that he might not have wanted to play in New York? Perhaps another side to the Cliff Lee story.

[Spitball]

If Cliff Lee wants to re-sign with the Rangers, it would take one phone call and they'd have something drawn up for him by the next day.

You and I both know that, as does he.

I see nothing wrong with playing coy one day after the World Series. If he ends up with the Yankees, I'll be singing a different tune, but for now, I totally expect him to play fairly hard to get with the Rangers. It is how the game is played.

[Brutus]

Cliff Lee can't name his price so it's a bit of an unfair standard IMHO. That's kind of a pet peeve of mine... :D

He can't name his price, but that's the whole point. If he wants to sign bad enough, he can do so if he's willing to accept less than whatever Yankee market value is.

So again, it's not really about wanting to sign with Texas, it's about whether Texas will pay him the money he wants. Let's call a spade a spade.

[Brutus]

I see nothing wrong with playing coy one day after the World Series. If he ends up with the Yankees, I'll be singing a different tune, but for now, I totally expect him to play fairly hard to get with the Rangers. It is how the game is played.

In private, I view these statements as a firm negotiating tactic. But in public, I find them to be disingenuous.

He's free to say what he wants. He's free to sign where he wants and for the reasons he wants. I just think it comes across as transparent to say he wants to stay some place, then act like the ball is completely in some else's court. It's not like he's a marginal player fighting for a job. He'd be given a nice payday if he made one phone call to the Texas Rangers.

I just honestly think people would respect him if he came out and said, "I'd like to stay with Texas, but the money will have to be right." Or, "I'd love to play here, but I have to also consider the financial aspect before I commit any place."

I think in this day and age, people would respect you more for admitting it's about the money than trying to act loyal to the organization, while waiting to see the high bid for your services.

[RFS62]

Southern Hospitality.

It's pretty passive-aggressive, although ingrained in the culture.

I too prefer the New York way..... say what you mean regardless. You always know where you stand.

But I don't blame him for being politically correct. He's a southern boy. It's how he was raised.

[Spitball]

In private, I view these statements as a firm negotiating tactic. But in public, I find them to be disingenuous.

He's free to say what he wants. He's free to sign where he wants and for the reasons he wants. I just think it comes across as transparent to say he wants to stay some place, then act like the ball is completely in some else's court. It's not like he's a marginal player fighting for a job. He'd be given a nice payday if he made one phone call to the Texas Rangers.

I just honestly think people would respect him if he came out and said, "I'd like to stay with Texas, but the money will have to be right." Or, "I'd love to play here, but I have to also consider the financial aspect before I commit any place."

I think in this day and age, people would respect you more for admitting it's about the money than trying to act loyal to the organization, while waiting to see the high bid for your services.

I see what you are saying, but I have come to expect players to play the game and listen to their agents. Even if Lee wants to re-sign with the Rangers, he will still want to publicly appear to be leaving himself options open to retain negotiating power.

It is an understandable and expected ploy. Really, I am always surprised when players display any sort of loyalty and even state a preference to stay with their current team.

[savafan]

I'm not sure about Lee to the Yankees, Cashman has said that he wants the team to get younger while remaining competitive.

[kaldaniels]

Until Texas presents Lee an offer, I'm cool with his political correct answer.

[WebScorpion]

I don't really understand the problem here. He said, "So many things can happen. You never know." How is that any different than, "I have to consider the financial aspect before I commit to a contract."? Maybe more than just money goes into his consideration and he doesn't want to go into the perks he's asking teams for...who knows? I don't really have a problem with his statement, it seems innocuous to me.

[Patrick Bateman]

He can't name his price, but that's the whole point. If he wants to sign bad enough, he can do so if he's willing to accept less than whatever Yankee market value is.

So again, it's not really about wanting to sign with Texas, it's about whether Texas will pay him the money he wants. Let's call a spade a spade.

Well, what if the Rangers are only offering 10M annually? (Just a devil's advocate).

I think he can want to stay there, but still take more elsewhere. I think basically what he's saying is that if the Rangers offer a competitive price, then he'll stay. CC said the same thing with the Brewers. It was probably true, but the Yanks blew them out of the water. Just because he wants to stay there, it doesn't mean he has to do it at whatever cost, which is basically what you are implying by being so averse to lee's innocent quote.

[Griffey012]

I don't get what all the fuss is about. He said he would like to stay in Texas, but said so many things can happen. If the Yankees throw him 20 million a season for 4 years and the Rangers can only muster up 30 mil for 2 yrs, are you really going to blame him for taking the extra 50 million? Maybe he hurts himself in the off-season and can't play, that's something that "could happen" along with many, many other things. What is he supposed to say, "Yeah I love the Rangers I am coming back for a huge discount at the point in my career where I have an opportunity to make a ton of money."?

[Griffey012]

He can't name his price, but that's the whole point. If he wants to sign bad enough, he can do so if he's willing to accept less than whatever Yankee market value is.

So again, it's not really about wanting to sign with Texas, it's about whether Texas will pay him the money he wants. Let's call a spade a spade.

Say you are working at a newly successful company making 400,000 a year in an executive position. You like the company and like the environment. Now say a longtime successful company comes along and offers you 650,000 a year to perform the same job duties with just a little bit of added pressure. Would you not at least consider the 650,000 offer no matter how much you enjoyed your current position?

In the end, you may turn down the new position, but you are basically saying Cliff Lee should never even take a look at the similar position offering a 250,000 raise.

[KronoRed]

In Lee's defense...perhaps, isn't there an ownership situation to be worked out in Texas?

Nope, that's all settled now.

As for Lee, he defended the yankee fans that taunted and harassed his wife, not really going to be a surprise when he signs with them.

[Brutus]

Say you are working at a newly successful company making 400,000 a year in an executive position. You like the company and like the environment. Now say a longtime successful company comes along and offers you 650,000 a year to perform the same job duties with just a little bit of added pressure. Would you not at least consider the 650,000 offer no matter how much you enjoyed your current position?

In the end, you may turn down the new position, but you are basically saying Cliff Lee should never even take a look at the similar position offering a 250,000 raise.

Of course I would consider it. That wasn't the part I was taking any issue with. I fully expect Lee should consider any other opportunities before committing!

My only point is... consider it, but no reason to act like you want to re-sign, but yet insinuate you don't know if it can happen (as if it weren't in your control). That's really all I'm saying. Absolutely he should consider other offers. I just think he would come across better if he were up front about that.

[Patrick Bateman]

Your just arguing semantics. Lee was basically saying he was interested, but that it takes two to tango.

[TheNext44]

We gotta play them one day at a time...
I'm just happy to be here...
I hope I can help the ball club...
I just want to give it my best shot...
The Good Lord willing, things will work out.

[The Operator]

As for Lee, he defended the yankee fans that taunted and harassed his wife, not really going to be a surprise when he signs with them.I noticed that as well.

When you won't call out fans who yell obscenities and throw beer at your wife, you've certainly got visions of playing for their team. He'll be a Yankee.

[Roy Tucker]

I think Lee's answer is meant to be bland, vague, mildly pleasant, and forgettable. Kind of like muzak.

So that when it comes time for the nitty-gritty arm-twisting negotiations to wring the last buck of of the bidders, there wasn't one big bold statement made that everyone remembers. Its all part of the dance.

Kind of like when my kids ask me for something I know I'm not going to accede to but I don't want to say no right then so I say "we'll see".

[Blitz Dorsey]

He'll be a Yankee for sure.

As for the premise of this thread, I think he was being about as honest as we can expect a high-profile athlete to be these days. He's not going to come out and flat out say "Whoever pays me the most is where I'm going -- you here me talking New York?" but reading between the lines that's exactly what he was saying. He likes it in Texas, but not enough where he'll take less money to stay there than the Yankees will offer.

I see what you are saying though, Pimp. I always love when players are honest with their statements. But then you know there would be people coming out of the woodwork saying "Cliff Lee is all about money" if he came out and said how he was really feeling.

No way he stays with the Rangers. I hope I'm wrong. But the Yankees will just tell Lee's agent: "We'll trump any offer ... keep coming to us ... we don't care how long it will take ... no way Texas will out-bid us."

[Unassisted]

If he had said "I'll go to the Yankees if they put enough zeroes in their offer," or something similarly closer to the ugly reality, he would probably have trouble lining up any endorsement deals next year or getting many HOF votes in 15-20 years.

See "Woods, Tiger" for the standard-setter in bland media quotes. ;)

[Brutus]

He'll be a Yankee for sure.

As for the premise of this thread, I think he was being about as honest as we can expect a high-profile athlete to be these days. He's not going to come out and flat out say "Whoever pays me the most is where I'm going -- you here me talking New York?" but reading between the lines that's exactly what he was saying. He likes it in Texas, but not enough where he'll take less money to stay there than the Yankees will offer.

I see what you are saying though, Pimp. I always love when players are honest with their statements. But then you know there would be people coming out of the woodwork saying "Cliff Lee is all about money" if he came out and said how he was really feeling.

No way he stays with the Rangers. I hope I'm wrong. But the Yankees will just tell Lee's agent: "We'll trump any offer ... keep coming to us ... we don't care how long it will take ... no way Texas will out-bid us."

This is true, but if he does sign with the Yankees, you know people will be saying this about him anyhow. I think he'd get some bonus points if he were honest about that from the start.

[Spitball]

I noticed that as well.

When you won't call out fans who yell obscenities and throw beer at your wife, you've certainly got visions of playing for their team. He'll be a Yankee.

Lee would be foolish to eliminate the Yankees from the bidding. If he wants to get the best money and years from the Rangers, he will keep his Yankee options open. I believe it was his agent, Darek Braunecker, who first responded to the report of the Yankee fan harrassment by stating it would have no effect on Lee's (and we can infer his) free agency plans.

[Edskin]

My bigger pet peeve with Lee would be this:

Tie game in the World Series, two on, an open base, facing a clutch hitting veteran (Edgar Renteria) with Aaron Rowand (who had done nada for months) on deck.

2-0 count and Lee serves up a meatball for a HR.

After the game his catcher says "I thought we were pitching around him."

Lee, who is on record saying his goal each year is to have more wins than walks, responds by saying that's not the way he pitches and he wasn't going to change just because it was the WS.

In short, Lee admitted that his ego would rather guide him to making a poor decision for the team overall rather than face the horrible possibility of issuing a walk.

Lee is a beast....a true ace in every sense of the word, but that incident really changes my opnion of him.

[PuffyPig]

My bigger pet peeve with Lee would be this:

Tie game in the World Series, two on, an open base, facing a clutch hitting veteran (Edgar Renteria) with Aaron Rowand (who had done nada for months) on deck.

2-0 count and Lee serves up a meatball for a HR.

After the game his catcher says "I thought we were pitching around him."

Lee, who is on record saying his goal each year is to have more wins than walks, responds by saying that's not the way he pitches and he wasn't going to change just because it was the WS.

In short, Lee admitted that his ego would rather guide him to making a poor decision for the team overall rather than face the horrible possibility of issuing a walk.

Lee is a beast....a true ace in every sense of the word, but that incident really changes my opnion of him.

Lee's quilty of serving up a bad pitch, true, but I have no problem with him pitching to dregs like Renteria.

I'd call Renteria a fading poor hitter, instead of "clutch".

His OPS this year with RISP was .590, with 2 outs and RISP it was .567.

He was "clutch" becuase he hit a HR. Simply a small sample size.

Lee wasn't one of the best pitchers in basbeall over the last few years pitching around bottom of the order hitters.

He threw a poor pitch, nothing more, nothing less.

[Chip R]

So, hypothetically speaking, if the Rangers (or anyone) outbid the Yankees for Lee's services, is Lee still a mercenary because he signed with the highest bidder or is he a good guy cause he didn't sign with the Yankees?

[Hoosier Red]

He can't name his price, but that's the whole point. If he wants to sign bad enough, he can do so if he's willing to accept less than whatever Yankee market value is.

So again, it's not really about wanting to sign with Texas, it's about whether Texas will pay him the money he wants. Let's call a spade a spade.

I think you're holding too high of a standard for him. Apparantly because he didn't mention the financial side of things, he was being transparent.

He'd love to sign with the Rangers,(but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll do so at any price.) I'd love to stay at my current job, but if someone came and offered me double, I'd probably love to leave my current job. His quote does two things; It lets the Yankees know that they'll have to significantly outdo the Rangers contract to get him to go elsewhere, and it lets the Rangers know, if the Yankees will significantly outdo your contract I'm leaving.

[KronoRed]

So, hypothetically speaking, if the Rangers (or anyone) outbid the Yankees for Lee's services, is Lee still a mercenary because he signed with the highest bidder or is he a good guy cause he didn't sign with the Yankees?

Anyone who is not a yankee is a good guy :D

[WMR]

I think you're holding too high of a standard for him. Apparantly because he didn't mention the financial side of things, he was being transparent.

He'd love to sign with the Rangers,(but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll do so at any price.) I'd love to stay at my current job, but if someone came and offered me double, I'd probably love to leave my current job. His quote does two things; It lets the Yankees know that they'll have to significantly outdo the Rangers contract to get him to go elsewhere, and it lets the Rangers know, if the Yankees will significantly outdo your contract I'm leaving.

Yep.

It's much easier to pass judgment in situations such as this when it's not your money, family, and career at stake. I think he stated his plans perfectly and with honesty as well (somewhat rare for athletes in this day and age).

[Brutus]

Yep.

It's much easier to pass judgment in situations such as this when it's not your money, family, and career at stake. I think he stated his plans perfectly and with honesty as well (somewhat rare for athletes in this day and age).

Honesty? Everyone believes this is about money and he did everything but actually say money was the hold-up.

No one is passing judgment about his actions, just the fact he's not being honest about it. I'm sorry, but saying he wants to stay with the Rangers and acting like the ball is out of his court is not really being totally honest.

If he wants to do what's best for his family and sign for the most money, fine. It is what it is.

I just think it's off-putting that he's acting like it's not his choice if he doesn't sign with them.

[jojo]

Honesty? Everyone believes this is about money and he did everything but actually say money was the hold-up.

No one is passing judgment about his actions, just the fact he's not being honest about it. I'm sorry, but saying he wants to stay with the Rangers and acting like the ball is out of his court is not really being totally honest.

If he wants to do what's best for his family and sign for the most money, fine. It is what it is.

I just think it's off-putting that he's acting like it's not his choice if he doesn't sign with them.

If a person isn't being honest, then they're being dishonest. I just have a hard time calling Lee dishonest in this instance.

[Brutus]

If a person isn't being honest, then they're being dishonest. I just have a hard time calling Lee dishonest in this instance.

You can not be telling the truth without necessarily lying.

I don't think it can be denied that he had an implication that the decision might be out of his hands. Does anyone believe that? I believe he's telling the truth he wouldn't mind re-signing with the Rangers. But I also don't believe for a second (nor should anyone else) that he couldn't get at least a decent payday and stay with the Rangers if he were really inclined.

[Edskin]

Lee's quilty of serving up a bad pitch, true, but I have no problem with him pitching to dregs like Renteria.

I'd call Renteria a fading poor hitter, instead of "clutch".

His OPS this year with RISP was .590, with 2 outs and RISP it was .567.

He was "clutch" becuase he hit a HR. Simply a small sample size.

Lee wasn't one of the best pitchers in basbeall over the last few years pitching around bottom of the order hitters.

He threw a poor pitch, nothing more, nothing less.

Tell that to Benjie Molina

[Hoosier Red]

You can not be telling the truth without necessarily lying.

I don't think it can be denied that he had an implication that the decision might be out of his hands. Does anyone believe that? I believe he's telling the truth he wouldn't mind re-signing with the Rangers. But I also don't believe for a second (nor should anyone else) that he couldn't get at least a decent payday and stay with the Rangers if he were really inclined.

The problem is its all relative. Define a decent amount of money. Could he technically stay with the Rangers for the league minimum? Sure.
I suppose you're right that money will be one of the deciding factors and he didn't mention it. I'm not sure that saying he'd love to stay without explicitly saying what might induce him to go elsewhere is really a bad thing though.

[Spitball]

Lee, who is on record saying his goal each year is to have more wins than walks, responds by saying that's not the way he pitches and he wasn't going to change just because it was the WS.

In short, Lee admitted that his ego would rather guide him to making a poor decision for the team overall rather than face the horrible possibility of issuing a walk.

Lee is a beast....a true ace in every sense of the word, but that incident really changes my opnion of him.

I think you are missing the point. Perhaps he made the comment about a goal of more wins than walks, but it is simply impossible to believe that he let that goal motivate him to groove a gopherball. If that is a goal of his, I assure you it is secondary (or further down the line) to actually winning a World Series game.

The guy has been one of the most dominating pitchers in the game for a few years now and knows what he does to be successful in working a batter and line-up. He has an aggressive approach and goes after batters in order to keep runners off the bases. Why would he change the strategy that has made him so dominating? How can he be judged adversely based on a less than perfect outcome and a catcher's comment???

[Edskin]

I think you are missing the point. Perhaps he made the comment about a goal of more wins than walks, but it is simply impossible to believe that he let that goal motivate him to groove a gopherball. If that is a goal of his, I assure you it is secondary (or further down the line) to actually winning a World Series game.

The guy has been one of the most dominating pitchers in the game for a few years now and knows what he does to be successful in working a batter and line-up. He has an aggressive approach and goes after batters in order to keep runners off the bases. Why would he change the strategy that has made him so dominating? How can he be judged adversely based on a less than perfect outcome and a catcher's comment???

The catcher's comment is extremely important here....basically saying that his own catcher had no idea why he wasn't just going to put Renteria on base to face Rowand, who had barely played in weeks. It was either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid on Lee's part.

[The Operator]

The catcher's comment is extremely important here....basically saying that his own catcher had no idea why he wasn't just going to put Renteria on base to face Rowand, who had barely played in weeks. It was either extremely stubborn or extremely stupid on Lee's part.Actually, I don't think Molina should have even brought that up in the media. You don't call out your teammate in the press like that, IMO.