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UKFlounder
11-03-2010, 07:23 PM
I know that Soto at his peak was much better than Harang at his, but, without looking at specific numbers too much, is it fair to say that their careers as Reds were kind of similar?

I know Soto came up in the Reds system and Harang was acquired via trade, but both had a few very good years but for very bad Reds teams and though Harang did get to play on a playoff team (though not the roster) both are almost tragic figures (as much as being a big-league ballplayer can be so, of course) in the "what if they had played on a good team while in their prime?"

This thought just came to mind as I read the thread about the Reds declining Harang's option. He was so solid for a couple of years, but was about the only dependable starter we had.

Soto was so dominating in the early 80's when I was a kid and my love of baseball was as high as ever. He put up some nasty numbers, especially in ERA and strikeouts, but never had a good enough team to put up a lot of wins.

Maybe I'm completely off-the-wall with this post, but it just seems to me that they had a similarly sad career with their best performances being wasted (if that's not too strong a term) on some lousy Reds teams.

Neither will ever be legends, but I will remember both fondly for their days with the Reds.

westofyou
11-03-2010, 07:27 PM
Mario Soto made the AS team in an era that pitching was at a premium, his 4 year run of excellence involved 4 years with over 237 IP.

He's the better pitcher.

Want a Harang comp?

Start at Bob Ewing and look down

Joseph
11-03-2010, 08:01 PM
Harang was the best pitcher on a bad team a lot of years. So was Elmer Dessens once upon a time.

Soto was a very good pitcher on a bad team.

UKFlounder
11-03-2010, 08:06 PM
That's probably a better way to put it.

Thanks


Harang was the best pitcher on a bad team a lot of years. So was Elmer Dessens once upon a time.

Soto was a very good pitcher on a bad team.

westofyou
11-03-2010, 08:53 PM
Harang was the best pitcher on a bad team a lot of years. So was Elmer Dessens once upon a time.

Soto was a very good pitcher on a bad team.

Put it this way, Harang was a better pitcher than Browning... by a hair.

savafan
11-03-2010, 11:28 PM
Similar pitchers:


1. Bill Wegman (959)
2. Bobby Jones (958)
3. Melido Perez (957)
4. Erik Hanson (952)
5. Gil Meche (951)
6. Jake Westbrook (950)
7. Mike Smithson (950)
8. Len Barker (949)
9. Odalis Perez (947)
10. Carl Pavano (946)

savafan
11-03-2010, 11:38 PM
Put it this way, Harang was a better pitcher than Browning... by a hair.

It's a decent comparison, but Browning's career numbers are actually better... by a hair.

savafan
11-03-2010, 11:42 PM
Harang:


Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB Awards
2002 24 OAK AL 5 4 .556 4.83 16 15 0 0 0 0 78.1 78 44 42 7 45 2 64 3 0 1 354 90 1.570 9.0 0.8 5.2 7.4 1.42
2003 25 TOT MLB 5 6 .455 5.31 16 15 1 0 0 0 76.1 89 47 45 11 19 0 42 1 1 3 327 81 1.415 10.5 1.3 2.2 5.0 2.21
2003 25 OAK AL 1 3 .250 5.34 7 6 1 0 0 0 30.1 41 19 18 5 9 0 16 0 1 0 136 84 1.648 12.2 1.5 2.7 4.7 1.78
2003 25 CIN NL 4 3 .571 5.28 9 9 0 0 0 0 46.0 48 28 27 6 10 0 26 1 0 3 191 79 1.261 9.4 1.2 2.0 5.1 2.60
2004 26 CIN NL 10 9 .526 4.86 28 28 0 1 1 0 161.0 177 90 87 26 53 5 125 5 0 7 711 88 1.429 9.9 1.5 3.0 7.0 2.36
2005 27 CIN NL 11 13 .458 3.83 32 32 0 1 0 0 211.2 217 93 90 22 51 3 163 8 0 6 887 112 1.266 9.2 0.9 2.2 6.9 3.20
2006 28 CIN NL 16 11 .593 3.76 36 35 0 6 2 0 234.1 242 109 98 28 56 8 216 8 1 6 993 124 1.272 9.3 1.1 2.2 8.3 3.86
2007 29 CIN NL 16 6 .727 3.73 34 34 0 2 1 0 231.2 213 100 96 28 52 3 218 8 1 12 948 124 1.144 8.3 1.1 2.0 8.5 4.19 CYA-4
2008 30 CIN NL 6 17 .261 4.78 30 29 0 1 1 0 184.1 205 104 98 35 50 5 153 2 0 2 793 93 1.383 10.0 1.7 2.4 7.5 3.06
2009 31 CIN NL 6 14 .300 4.21 26 26 0 2 1 0 162.1 186 82 76 24 43 6 142 4 0 6 703 100 1.411 10.3 1.3 2.4 7.9 3.30
2010 32 CIN NL 6 7 .462 5.32 22 20 1 0 0 0 111.2 139 71 66 16 38 0 82 4 0 9 504 75 1.585 11.2 1.3 3.1 6.6 2.16
9 Seasons 81 87 .482 4.33 240 234 2 13 6 0 1451.2 1546 740 698 197 407 32 1205 43 3 52 6220 102 1.345 9.6 1.2 2.5 7.5 2.96

Browning:


Year Age Tm Lg W L W-L% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB Awards
1984 24 CIN NL 1 0 1.000 1.54 3 3 0 0 0 0 23.1 27 4 4 0 5 0 14 0 0 1 95 249 1.371 10.4 0.0 1.9 5.4 2.80
1985 25 CIN NL 20 9 .690 3.55 38 38 0 6 4 0 261.1 242 111 103 29 73 8 155 3 0 2 1083 107 1.205 8.3 1.0 2.5 5.3 2.12 CYA-6,RoY-2
1986 26 CIN NL 14 13 .519 3.81 39 39 0 4 2 0 243.1 225 123 103 26 70 6 147 1 0 3 1016 102 1.212 8.3 1.0 2.6 5.4 2.10
1987 27 CIN NL 10 13 .435 5.02 32 31 1 2 0 0 183.0 201 107 102 27 61 7 117 5 4 2 791 84 1.432 9.9 1.3 3.0 5.8 1.92
1988 28 CIN NL 18 5 .783 3.41 36 36 0 5 2 0 250.2 205 98 95 36 64 3 124 7 4 2 1001 105 1.073 7.4 1.3 2.3 4.5 1.94
1989 29 CIN NL 15 12 .556 3.39 37 37 0 9 2 0 249.2 241 109 94 31 64 10 118 3 1 2 1031 107 1.222 8.7 1.1 2.3 4.3 1.84
1990 30 CIN NL 15 9 .625 3.80 35 35 0 2 1 0 227.2 235 98 96 24 52 13 99 5 1 5 957 105 1.261 9.3 0.9 2.1 3.9 1.90
1991 31 CIN NL 14 14 .500 4.18 36 36 0 1 0 0 230.1 241 124 107 32 56 4 115 4 1 3 983 92 1.289 9.4 1.3 2.2 4.5 2.05 AS
1992 32 CIN NL 6 5 .545 5.07 16 16 0 0 0 0 87.0 108 49 49 6 28 7 33 2 1 3 386 72 1.563 11.2 0.6 2.9 3.4 1.18
1993 33 CIN NL 7 7 .500 4.74 21 20 0 0 0 0 114.0 159 61 60 15 20 2 53 1 1 1 505 86 1.570 12.6 1.2 1.6 4.2 2.65
1994 34 CIN NL 3 1 .750 4.20 7 7 0 2 1 0 40.2 34 20 19 8 13 1 22 1 0 1 169 100 1.156 7.5 1.8 2.9 4.9 1.69
1995 35 KCR AL 0 2 .000 8.10 2 2 0 0 0 0 10.0 13 9 9 2 5 0 3 0 0 0 49 61 1.800 11.7 1.8 4.5 2.7 0.60
12 Seasons 123 90 .577 3.94 302 300 1 31 12 0 1921.0 1931 913 841 236 511 61 1000 32 13 25 8066 98 1.271 9.0 1.1 2.4 4.7 1.96

traderumor
11-04-2010, 06:58 PM
Harang looked better than he was because the rest of the staff was so bad. There were some other arms in the rotation during his hay days, just no bats.

westofyou
11-04-2010, 09:28 PM
IP Greater than 600
CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
1978-2009

ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
NEUTRAL WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
NEUTRAL LOSSES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
GAMES STARTED >= 75

RSAA RSAA ERA N_W N_L IP GS
1 Jose Rijo 177 0.99 101 57 1478 215
2 Mario Soto 64 0.21 102 82 1669.2 214
3 Bronson Arroyo 50 0.36 57 46 871.2 136
4 Aaron Harang 38 0.16 76 66 1231.1 193
5 Tom Seaver 32 0.28 55 49 920.1 138
6 Joe Price 16 0.05 36 31 659.2 75
7 John Smiley 2 0.03 48 48 775.1 123
8 Tom Browning -15 -.22 104 107 1911 298
9 Bruce Berenyi -18 -.37 38 41 613.1 102
10 Frank Pastore -62 -.69 45 57 937 138