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Brutus
11-04-2010, 10:42 AM
You know, in reading some of the recent comments from Hal Steinbrenner, especially over the Derek Jeter situation, I'm starting to get the impression that Hal & Hank won't be spending as liberally as their father.

It seems like the Yankees will still be at the forefront of the pack in payroll, but I'm getting the feeling it will be more competitive.

Thoughts? Am I alone in this assessment?

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 10:56 AM
You know, in reading some of the recent comments from Hal Steinbrenner, especially over the Derek Jeter situation, I'm starting to get the impression that Hal & Hank won't be spending as liberally as their father.

It seems like the Yankees will still be at the forefront of the pack in payroll, but I'm getting the feeling it will be more competitive.

Thoughts? Am I alone in this assessment?

I mentioned in another thread that I think they are near the top of their limits. Their salaries are so concentrated with certain players and now you see them going cheap with their bench, bullpen and even in the amatuer markets.

Reds4Life
11-04-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't think the Yankees have a limit when it comes to payroll, they can pretty much spend whatever they want. The difference here is the sons are probably more interested in putting that cash in their bank account than George was. He wanted the rings and the wins, maybe his kids just want the cash.

NJReds
11-04-2010, 11:53 AM
You know, in reading some of the recent comments from Hal Steinbrenner, especially over the Derek Jeter situation, I'm starting to get the impression that Hal & Hank won't be spending as liberally as their father.

It seems like the Yankees will still be at the forefront of the pack in payroll, but I'm getting the feeling it will be more competitive.

Thoughts? Am I alone in this assessment?

Hal was making the radio rounds yesterday. To sum it up he said they don't want to go higher in payroll this year, and would prefer to stay at the level they're at. The sons do seem more fiscally conservative than their father, though.

They have about $30M coming off with Vasquez, Nick Johnson, Pettitte (who may come back), some other low contract 1-year guys, along with whatever they paid Wood & Berkman.

Jeter and Mariano combined to make $36M last year. It will be interesting to see how they handle a declining shortstop, who's also an icon, and a 40-yr old reliever that apparently bathes in the fountain of youth.

Hal also said they'd be big players in Free Agency, however he also said they'd like to get younger. So I doubt they'll be in on Crawford and Werth. Everyone assumes Cliff Lee, but it depends. Do you give a 32-yr old pitcher who had back problems last year a 6 or 7 year deal? I'm not sure these Steinbrenners will. I know what their father would've done, though.

RedsManRick
11-04-2010, 12:12 PM
The Yankees had a $213MM payroll last year. Think about that. They could cut $13M in payroll and hardly anybody would notice. For us, $13M would be a game-changer.

Their payroll set up is crazy. Look at who they have locked up for next year:


ARod 32.0
CC 24.0
Jeter 22.6 (2010)
Teix 23.1
Burnett 16.5
Rivera 15.0 (2010)
Posada 13.1
Cano 10.0
Swisher 9.1
C-Grand 8.3
Marte 4.0
Everybody Else <1.0M (pending a few arb cases)

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tpQLwiiQL4kzEzLhsUqVjLQ&output=html

Frankly, I think that's probably the best way to spend their money. They only have 25 roster spots so they might as well buy the best and not waste it on mid-tier players. But it really is insane when you consider their top 4 get paid more than 24 entire other teams and their top 2 more than 9 teams.

Assuming they resign Jeter for around $12-15 and Mo for the same, that leaves them something like $30-35M to play with this offseason after their arb cases. They can go after Lee, but locking him up long term really ties Cashman's hands for the next few years.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 12:24 PM
The Yankees had a $213MM payroll last year. Think about that. They could cut $13M in payroll and hardly anybody would notice. For us, $13M would be a game-changer.

Their payroll set up is crazy. Look at who they have locked up for next year:


ARod 32.0
CC 24.0
Jeter 22.6 (2010)
Teix 23.1
Burnett 16.5
Rivera 15.0 (2010)
Posada 13.1
Cano 10.0
Swisher 9.1
C-Grand 8.3
Marte 4.0
Everybody Else <1.0M (pending a few arb cases)

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tpQLwiiQL4kzEzLhsUqVjLQ&output=html

Frankly, I think that's probably the best way to spend their money. They only have 25 roster spots so they might as well buy the best and not waste it on mid-tier players. But it really is insane when you consider their top 4 get paid more than 24 entire other teams and their top 2 more than 9 teams.

Assuming they resign Jeter for around $12-15 and Mo for the same, that leaves them something like $30-35M to play with this offseason after their arb cases. They can go after Lee, but locking him up long term really ties Cashman's hands for the next few years.

Not so sure about the bolded part. They need more balance and a deeper roster. Their bullpen was a travesty and they had a ton of money tied up in disappointing guys this season. In your example, their bullpen would be like a Cincy circa '06 version.

RedsManRick
11-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Not so sure about the bolded part. They need more balance and a deeper roster. Their bullpen was a travesty and they had a ton of money tied up in disappointing guys this season. In your example, their bullpen would be like a Cincy circa '06 version.

In my example, they would simply do a better job at finding good, cheap relievers. Ask the Padres, you don't need to spend a ton to have a good pen. Sure, they could spend a few million on an Arthur Rhodes to Takashi Saito, but there's no reason so spend a ton on middle relievers.
I'd say calling it a travesty is a bit harsh. Robertson, Logan, Mitre and Joba were all solid (Joba suffered some bad luck), to say nothing of Mo'.

As for balance, they led baseball in runs produced and were 7th in the AL in runs allowed. Burnett and Vazquez really killed them this year and I think they'll get better production from those spots next year.

bucksfan2
11-04-2010, 12:35 PM
Its a good thing the Yankees can spend money and absorb money because they are headed down a very tricky path. The Yankees can't afford to let Jeter walk and Jeter is going to want to get paid until ARod is getting paid. Another 6 years at top dollar. They have an aging C, a headcase P, and a closer that you keep wondering if he can stay ageless.

RedsManRick
11-04-2010, 12:41 PM
Its a good thing the Yankees can spend money and absorb money because they are headed down a very tricky path. The Yankees can't afford to let Jeter walk and Jeter is going to want to get paid until ARod is getting paid. Another 6 years at top dollar. They have an aging C, a headcase P, and a closer that you keep wondering if he can stay ageless.

I keep hearing this, but I'm not sure I agree.

In what way can the Yankees not afford to let Jeter leave. Let's say they do; what happens? They still sell out every single game. They still get massive TV ratings. The product on the field is no worse. Sure, a lot of fans are angry for awhile, but they're not going to abandon the team.

And imagine the press if Jeter turns down say, $12M, to go play elsewhere. Is somebody going to give him more than that? What's he going to say? I'd rather play for the Angels or Giants for $10M than the Yankees for $12M? The "respect" line doesn't go to far when you've already banked over $200M. How "Yankee-like" is it to put your own interests ahead of the teams?

The Yankees have all the leverage here and only themselves to blame if they over-commit to him. I'd offer him 3/36 with a generous personal services contract and let him walk if he didn't like it. If Jeter's smart, he realizes he's got more to lose by leaving than by taking a few million bucks less than he might feel he's worth.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 12:47 PM
In my example, they would simply do a better job at finding good, cheap relievers. Ask the Padres, you don't need to spend a ton to have a good pen. Sure, they could spend a few million on an Arthur Rhodes to Takashi Saito, but there's no reason so spend a ton on middle relievers.
I'd say calling it a travesty is a bit harsh. Robertson, Logan, Mitre and Joba were all solid (Joba suffered some bad luck), to say nothing of Mo'.

As for balance, they led baseball in runs produced and were 7th in the AL in runs allowed. Burnett and Vazquez really killed them this year and I think they'll get better production from those spots next year.

Boone Logan, Roberston, Gaudin, Joba, Moseley, Mitre, Nova, Chan Ho all got significant innings this year. That's not going to cut it in NY.

When they needed a huge stop in the WS, they went to Robertson. That tells a story in itself.

RedsManRick
11-04-2010, 01:28 PM
Boone Logan, Roberston, Gaudin, Joba, Moseley, Mitre, Nova, Chan Ho all got significant innings this year. That's not going to cut it in NY.

When they needed a huge stop in the WS, they went to Robertson. That tells a story in itself.

"Not going to cut it in "NY"? I'm sorry, but that's just a silly statement.

Yes, the Yankees have high expectations. Yes, the bullpen wasn't stellar. But throwing money at the problem isn't the solution either. How much did the Giants pay Romo and Casilla? How much did the Rangers pay O'Day and Ogando?

Look across baseball at all the very productive middle relievers and see how much they're getting paid. Then look at all the high paid relievers and see how well the performed. When it comes to relievers you're often paying for a guy's past performance. They Yankees could spend $25M chasing middle relievers this off-season and not improve their pen much at all.

bucksfan2
11-04-2010, 01:58 PM
I keep hearing this, but I'm not sure I agree.

In what way can the Yankees not afford to let Jeter leave. Let's say they do; what happens? They still sell out every single game. They still get massive TV ratings. The product on the field is no worse. Sure, a lot of fans are angry for awhile, but they're not going to abandon the team.

And imagine the press if Jeter turns down say, $12M, to go play elsewhere. Is somebody going to give him more than that? What's he going to say? I'd rather play for the Angels or Giants for $10M than the Yankees for $12M? The "respect" line doesn't go to far when you've already banked over $200M. How "Yankee-like" is it to put your own interests ahead of the teams?

The Yankees have all the leverage here and only themselves to blame if they over-commit to him. I'd offer him 3/36 with a generous personal services contract and let him walk if he didn't like it. If Jeter's smart, he realizes he's got more to lose by leaving than by taking a few million bucks less than he might feel he's worth.

I didn't think the Yankees sold out every game. Heck I even remember when new Yankee Stadium opened up the stink about the empty high dollar seats.

Derrick Jeter is as synonymous as the Yankees as Mickey Mantle and Joe Dimaggio and Yogi Berra. He IS the current version of the Yankees. He IS the face of the Yankee turnaround into dominance. I just don't see the Yankees letting him go. I think it is somewhat similar to the Reds situation with Barry Larkin during his last contract. They just couldn't afford to let him go and end up handing him a bad contract.

IMO the negotiations start at 6 years and end up around 4. I think your estimation is a little low, I see him getting somewhere in the ball park of 4 years 15M+/year.

edabbs44
11-04-2010, 02:36 PM
"Not going to cut it in "NY"? I'm sorry, but that's just a silly statement.

Yes, the Yankees have high expectations. Yes, the bullpen wasn't stellar. But throwing money at the problem isn't the solution either. How much did the Giants pay Romo and Casilla? How much did the Rangers pay O'Day and Ogando?

Look across baseball at all the very productive middle relievers and see how much they're getting paid. Then look at all the high paid relievers and see how well the performed. When it comes to relievers you're often paying for a guy's past performance. They Yankees could spend $25M chasing middle relievers this off-season and not improve their pen much at all.

Or they can go to the trash heap and flunk as well. When in doubt, I'd rather have the money to spend.

Looking at those names, could anyone have ever, even with the best scouting team in baseball, have legitimately said that Casilla was going to post a sub 2 ERA? Honestly. The guy goes from a 6 ERA, 1.8 WHIP with 48 IP, 61 H and 35 Ks to a 2 ERA, 1.2 WHIP with 55 IP, 40 H and 56 Ks.

Maybe it was the NL bounce, maybe it was something else, but the issue is that you cannot go into the season with Santiago Casilla in your bullpen and assume that all is well. Casilla provides that and it is a huge bonus from your 12th man. That's all you can do with him.

I know your point, but you need proven arms in your bullpen. Especially in NY, when the rest of the team is in place. You'll likely be looking for a job the following season if that is the method.

*BaseClogger*
11-05-2010, 02:30 AM
Maybe it was the NL bounce, maybe it was something else, but the issue is that you cannot go into the season with Santiago Casilla in your bullpen and assume that all is well. Casilla provides that and it is a huge bonus from your 12th man. That's all you can do with him.

No, but if you go into Spring Training with a handful of high-upside guys like Casilla at least one usually sticks...

blumj
11-05-2010, 08:52 AM
You know, in reading some of the recent comments from Hal Steinbrenner, especially over the Derek Jeter situation, I'm starting to get the impression that Hal & Hank won't be spending as liberally as their father.

It seems like the Yankees will still be at the forefront of the pack in payroll, but I'm getting the feeling it will be more competitive.

Thoughts? Am I alone in this assessment?
They say stuff like that every year, it's just negiotiating. They'll add anyone they really want, and they'll swoop in if it looks like someone else is going to get too much of a bargain, by their standards. They're almost at the point where there aren't that many upgrades they can make just by spending more money. Everyone expects them to sign Lee, and maybe they sign Crawford or Werth so they can trade an OFer for another pitcher, and add a FA reliever or two. But, with a 25 man roster, there is a point where it's like that old joke, "You can't have everything, where would you put it?".

blumj
11-05-2010, 09:03 AM
I know your point, but you need proven arms in your bullpen. Especially in NY, when the rest of the team is in place. You'll likely be looking for a job the following season if that is the method.
They had Marte, he got hurt. They added Park, he stunk, so they got rid of him, then they added Wood, and he pitched well. The Yankees and Rangers both had good bullpens during the season, and the Yankees have been through the same reliever roulette with "proven arms" as everyone else, except for the part where the closer goes bad and all heck really breaks loose.

Brutus
11-05-2010, 09:23 AM
They say stuff like that every year, it's just negiotiating. They'll add anyone they really want, and they'll swoop in if it looks like someone else is going to get too much of a bargain, by their standards. They're almost at the point where there aren't that many upgrades they can make just by spending more money. Everyone expects them to sign Lee, and maybe they sign Crawford or Werth so they can trade an OFer for another pitcher, and add a FA reliever or two. But, with a 25 man roster, there is a point where it's like that old joke, "You can't have everything, where would you put it?".

I disagree. I've never seen George say some of the things I've already seen from Hal.

Is there some leverage involved in the comments? Sure. But I really get the impression from Hal he means some of what he says. It's been reported in the past that he's more attentive to the bottom line than George. I don't think he's going to spend with the same aggression that his father did.

blumj
11-05-2010, 10:11 AM
I disagree. I've never seen George say some of the things I've already seen from Hal.

Is there some leverage involved in the comments? Sure. But I really get the impression from Hal he means some of what he says. It's been reported in the past that he's more attentive to the bottom line than George. I don't think he's going to spend with the same aggression that his father did.
You really think George being physically still alive made a difference? Well, I guess we'll find out soon enough, but there are only so many players even the Yankees can find worth handing out $20+M a year contracts to, only so many positions on the field to play them all, and only so many roster spots to stick them in.

westofyou
11-05-2010, 10:16 AM
I disagree. I've never seen George say some of the things I've already seen from Hal.



"I won't be active in the day-to-day operations of the club at all. I can't spread myself so thin. I've got enough headaches with my shipping company. We plan absentee ownership as far as running the Yankees is concerned." (Jan. 1973)

bucksfan2
11-05-2010, 10:51 AM
I disagree. I've never seen George say some of the things I've already seen from Hal.

Is there some leverage involved in the comments? Sure. But I really get the impression from Hal he means some of what he says. It's been reported in the past that he's more attentive to the bottom line than George. I don't think he's going to spend with the same aggression that his father did.

I think there will be a difference, maybe substantial, now that Hal is in charge. I liken it to this. In terms of being a baseball owner George wasn't all that wealthy. He made a very smart (lucky) investment in the Yankees and from that point forward spent money. Most of George's wealth was tied to the Yankees. George pushed the spending to the limits and then beyond those limits.

I think Hal is in a different situation because most of avenues that George made his money in are tapped out. The TV network, new stadium, etc. all have been realized. The Yankees will always be big spenders but they may not be able to spend excessively anymore.

Reds4Life
11-05-2010, 11:02 AM
I think there will be a difference, maybe substantial, now that Hal is in charge. I liken it to this. In terms of being a baseball owner George wasn't all that wealthy. He made a very smart (lucky) investment in the Yankees and from that point forward spent money. Most of George's wealth was tied to the Yankees. George pushed the spending to the limits and then beyond those limits.

I think Hal is in a different situation because most of avenues that George made his money in are tapped out. The TV network, new stadium, etc. all have been realized. The Yankees will always be big spenders but they may not be able to spend excessively anymore.

But having large personal wealth doesn't much in baseball. For a long time, the richest owner in baseball was Carl Lindner, worth billions, and we saw how that worked out.

Brutus
11-05-2010, 11:26 AM
"I won't be active in the day-to-day operations of the club at all. I can't spread myself so thin. I've got enough headaches with my shipping company. We plan absentee ownership as far as running the Yankees is concerned." (Jan. 1973)

Well, I mean modern day George. The Steinbrenner of the last 10-15 years would have never made such a remark :D

blumj
11-05-2010, 11:45 AM
I think there will be a difference, maybe substantial, now that Hal is in charge. I liken it to this. In terms of being a baseball owner George wasn't all that wealthy. He made a very smart (lucky) investment in the Yankees and from that point forward spent money. Most of George's wealth was tied to the Yankees. George pushed the spending to the limits and then beyond those limits.

I think Hal is in a different situation because most of avenues that George made his money in are tapped out. The TV network, new stadium, etc. all have been realized. The Yankees will always be big spenders but they may not be able to spend excessively anymore.
I don't really know what you guys are seeing, Hal's been in charge since '08, when he first started talking about spending more conservatively right before they threw all that money at CC, AJ, and Tex.