PDA

View Full Version : Off of ORG: If I'm Walt at the meetings



Vottomatic
11-16-2010, 03:06 PM
If I'm Walt at The Meetings

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My preferences all revolve around getting one of the reportedly available studs for LF. Provided that happens, I am fine going with Janish and Cozart at SS.

1. Trade 1 of Volquez/Bailey/Leake/Wood and any 2 OFs in the organization other than Bruce, Stubbs, and Y-Rod to the Diamondbacks for Justin Upton.

Arizona is reportedly listening to offers on Upton. They need to retool their organization. They would need an infusion of talent, and no one has more ML-ready high upside arms than the Reds. Would be the inverse of the Hamilton-Volquez or Garza-Young trades. Would give the Reds the best defensive and offensive OF in the NL. The $50MM owed to Upton over the next five years might be an issue given the Reds current demographics.

2. Trade Yonder Alonso, Chris Heisey and Juan Francisco to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp.

Dodgers have reportedly soured on Kemp's attitude and are looking to replace Loney at 1B. Perfect fit for Alonso. Like Upton, Kemp immediately gives the Reds best defensive, and possibly offensive, OF in the NL. Would likely walk after 2011.

3. Trade Juan Francisco and Chris Valaika to the Marlins for Dan Uggla.

Marlins are actively shopping Uggla after he rejected their extension offer. He is from TN/KY and might like to come home. Only question would be if he is comfortable moving to LF. Would fit into the cleanup slot nicely between Votto and Bruce. Doubtful the Reds would want to spend $12MM per year on him after 2011.

4. Trade Francisco Cordero, Chris Valaika and Chris Heisey or Juan Francisco to the Mets for Carlos Beltran.

Mets are open to moving him, and he is open to being moved (although he has a no-trade) both from the Mets and out of CF. Reports had Mets discussing swap of bad contracts with Cubs/Zambrano. With K-Rod's demise, Mets could use a closer and could get younger in the OF. Would likely walk in the offseason.

These moves would be mutually exclusive, as Upton, Kemp, Uggla or Beltran would immediately become the Reds LF. Kemp (26), Uggla (29), and Beltran (33) are all signed through 2011. Upton (23) is signed and owed approximately $50MM through 2015. If the Reds acquired any of these three, they would be fine to go into the year with a tandem of Janish and Cozart at SS. In fact, they would still be (in my opinion) the favorites to repeat as NL Central champs.

Wildcard Move

5. Reds trade Mike Leake, Travis Wood, and Chris Heisey for Zach Greinke.

Royals get two young studs that will fit better from a timeframe perspective with their young prospects Hosmer, Moustakas, and Myers. Plus they get an OF to replace David DeJesus. Reds get a young, affordable ace to headline their rotation: Greinke, Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Bailey/Chapman

Thoughts? - Benihana


I will post my thoughts in a second.

Vottomatic
11-16-2010, 03:17 PM
1. I'd rather have Arizona's Chris Young than Justin Upton. He comes cheaper. He has played CF. He finished second on the team with 27 HR's and first with 28 SB's. Has a .340 OBP. Wouldn't take nearly as much to get him.

2. I don't want Matt Kemp. Only if the Dodgers just want to unload him for nothing.

3. Not really interested in Uggla, but I could see the Reds trading BP with one decent prospect for him. Marlins would be finished with BP after next season. Reds gain a power hitting second baseman to fit into the middle of the batting order. I seriously doubt any team wants to move Uggla to LF.

4. This is the trade I would make, but only if the Mets sent some $$$ back to help cover Beltran's $18.5M salary. We unload Cordero's $12.5M, and the Mets get a closer to replace K-Rod. They probably would want Heisey too. No problem if they send the cash to offset the salary disparity. I would take a chance on Beltran. He's had 2 injured years, but he will be in a contract season, like Beltre was with the BoSox this year. I could see good things happening.

5. I hate this trade. Greinke was very mediocre this past year. I'm not giving up Wood and Leake for him. No way. I think KC will want a goldmine for Greinke, and I think the team that gives it to them will be sorry. I'd give them some top prospects and that's it, but I'd expect Soria to be thrown into the deal. Hehehe.

Chris Sabowned
11-16-2010, 03:27 PM
Most of those are plausible, except #5. No way I trade Wood and Leake. Thats way too much to give up for any one player.

brm7675
11-16-2010, 04:43 PM
Isn't it wonderful to dream. Now the cold hard truth, the Reds will not be making any major deals this offseason. They are going to go with Gomes in LF and Walt will either resign Orlando for cheaps or they will check out the FA pool at SS and see whom they can get. Any monies we have will be spent on present Reds with contract extentions and arbitration cases. But it is nice to dream....

RedsLvr
11-16-2010, 04:50 PM
I only like trade #4 to be honest.

David Cubbedge
11-16-2010, 05:54 PM
Cordero on the block...
Chapman to close next year?

TheBigLebowski
11-16-2010, 06:17 PM
Dude wants to gut our entire minor league system. None of those trades would work anyway. KC will likely want more than that for Greinke, believe it or not. It would take more than that to get J Upton. Even if the Dodgers bit on that Kemp deal, which I doubt they would, we only control him until 2011 and I am not wild about bringing bad attitudes into the clubhouse. Uggla is a moot point now, but FLA got a much better package for him in Infante and Dunn anyway. Mets would probably take that package for Beltran, but that contract would hang on our necks like an albatross and Beltran is going to be injury-riddled the rest of his career. Me no want.

lonewolf371
11-16-2010, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I don't really like any of these trades. In dealing prospects I don't feel like the Reds would get as much as they're giving and I don't think any of these trades would put the Reds over the top.

David Cubbedge
11-16-2010, 09:13 PM
"We've been talking to clubs and looking for a potential leadoff hitter, and maybe someone to improve our bench," said Jocketty. "There's not a great deal to do, but we're talking a lot. Generally, we talk to clubs before we come down and follow up here with discussions. We, hopefully, finish what we start [here] at the Winter Meetings. I don't know if we'll find a [leadoff hitter] or not."

Carin4Narron
11-17-2010, 01:48 PM
Walt should consider of talking to Derek Jeter. They do need a shortstop and his leadership would help the team a lot!

As you know, the Reds let Pete walk in 1978 when he was Mr.Red. I am a die hard Reds fan, but also am a Yankees fan. I am scared to death that Cashman takes Jeter for granted and some other team will give Jeter a sweeter deal. If so, why not the Reds?

Krawhitham
11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Coco & Phillips need to be moved, that frees up 23 million

brm7675
11-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Walt should consider of talking to Derek Jeter. They do need a shortstop and his leadership would help the team a lot!

As you know, the Reds let Pete walk in 1978 when he was Mr.Red. I am a die hard Reds fan, but also am a Yankees fan. I am scared to death that Cashman takes Jeter for granted and some other team will give Jeter a sweeter deal. If so, why not the Reds?

A) Jeter is old and horrible
B) Jeter won't play for anyone but the Yankees
C) Why would you pay him 20 million per season?

brm7675
11-17-2010, 02:17 PM
Coco & Phillips need to be moved, that frees up 23 million

No one will take CoCo and why would you deal phillips?

Carin4Narron
11-17-2010, 06:03 PM
A) Jeter is old and horrible
B) Jeter won't play for anyone but the Yankees
C) Why would you pay him 20 million per season?

A.I would gladly take old and horrible if a guy has 5 rings and knows how to play baseball!

B.In 1978 the Reds let Pete walk, didn't they! The same mighr happen with Jeter.

C. Who says it would take 20 million a year to get him? He is 36 and that will hurt his next contract where ever he goes.

brm7675
11-17-2010, 06:20 PM
A.I would gladly take old and horrible if a guy has 5 rings and knows how to play baseball!

B.In 1978 the Reds let Pete walk, didn't they! The same mighr happen with Jeter.

C. Who says it would take 20 million a year to get him? He is 36 and that will hurt his next contract where ever he goes.


A) Who cares how many rings he has, if that is the basis lets go get Roger Clemens to pitch, I mean he has rings. He is a horrible fielding and not a very good hitting player anymore, why spend 20 million on that?

B) The Reds let Pete walk because ownership didn't believe in paying aging players big money, the Yankees can and do.

C) Simple that is the money level the Yankees are already saying they will pay him.

RedLakerFan24
11-17-2010, 09:57 PM
I Want Justin Upton. Bailey, Alonso, Mes, Frazier, Heisey for Justin

lonewolf371
11-17-2010, 10:47 PM
Judging from some of what I've read on the internet lately, it really sounds like both Greinke and Upton will be moved this off-season.

Vottomatic
11-17-2010, 11:26 PM
I Want Justin Upton. Bailey, Alonso, Mes, Frazier, Heisey for Justin

Please Walt. Just say no.

Girevik
11-18-2010, 08:21 AM
C. Who says it would take 20 million a year to get him? He is 36 and that will hurt his next contract where ever he goes.


The bottom line is that Jeter is worth FAR more to the Yankees than to the Reds. He's the face of the Yankees, and in keeping him you get the good-will of the public in addition to whatever value you get on the field. He doesn't bring that value to any other team. That combined with the Yankee's ability to actually pay for it almost garantee he's going to be back in NY.

The only senario I see where that doesn't happen is if he dig's his heels in and pulls a Chris Sabo type move where he simply will NOT sign for even an inflataed ammount. Eventually you hit that deadline where if you sign for former team you can't play with them until like May or June (I assume that rule is still in place...always struck me as a stupid one), and the Yanks could just move on at that point and Jeter have to actually sign somewhere else for less than the Yanks were offering.

texasdave
11-18-2010, 12:36 PM
"I don't know if we'll find a [leadoff hitter] or not."

Because speedy ballplayers who get nearly 750 PA in a season and OBP around the .300 mark don't grow on trees. You gotta do some looking. And that seems to be the kind of leadoff hitter our manager prefers.

Leadoff spot under Dusty:


YEAR PA OBP
2008 757 0.326
2009 757 0.302
2010 767 0.306

Vottomatic
11-19-2010, 02:51 AM
Because speedy ballplayers who get nearly 750 PA in a season and OBP around the .300 mark don't grow on trees. You gotta do some looking. And that seems to be the kind of leadoff hitter our manager prefers.

Leadoff spot under Dusty:


YEAR PA OBP
2008 757 0.326
2009 757 0.302
2010 767 0.306

Haven't you heard? OBP for a leadoff man is insignificant for a leadoff man in Dusty's opinion.

krm1580
11-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Justin Upton is an interesting name being tossed around but I really doubt he is going anywhere. My guess is Arizona threw his name out there to drum up business and will end up saying "Well we don't like the offer for Upton, but since you are looking to trade players X & Y anyway how about we throw you players A & B instead of Upton.

As far is acquiring him, I think the problem becomes Arizona's asking price will be based on what they think his ceiling is which is HIGH. Whoever deals for him will have to meet that price and underwrite the risk of him not getting there. I am not sure I would want the Reds to take that leap and be wrong.

On the other hand Shin-Soo Choo is apparently now exempt from his military service due to Korea winning the Gold at the Asian games. He would offer very good production for a lower price tag.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101119&content_id=16154626&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

PeteRoseBelongs
11-19-2010, 12:48 PM
and not one of those trades makes us better. they weaken us and that isn't an option. Here's a question, is it possible that the Reds just waive Cordero? If they did would be on the hook for the entire salary?

krm1580
11-19-2010, 12:52 PM
and not one of those trades makes us better. they weaken us and that isn't an option. Here's a question, is it possible that the Reds just waive Cordero? If they did would be on the hook for the entire salary?

Almost all contracts in baseball are guaranteed so even if they waived Cordero they would still be on the hook for his entire salary.

brm7675
11-19-2010, 02:18 PM
and not one of those trades makes us better. they weaken us and that isn't an option. Here's a question, is it possible that the Reds just waive Cordero? If they did would be on the hook for the entire salary?

Why yes, they pay him if he is pitching for the Reds or sitting at home, thus why he won't be wavied. If he is traded the Reds also will likely be on the hook for some portion of his remaining contract thus why it will be hard to deal him. Suck it for one more season then go with the 2 million buyout in 2012.

Girevik
11-19-2010, 03:02 PM
On the other hand Shin-Soo Choo is apparently now exempt from his military service due to Korea winning the Gold at the Asian games. He would offer very good production for a lower price tag.


Which is exactly why Cleveland probably isn't looking to trade him.

twill
11-19-2010, 04:03 PM
Lets go completely out of the box here and offer Votto and Cozart to Colorado for Tulo and Eric Young Jr. It would not be popular initially but if we believe in Alonso or even Fransisco we could really upgrade a more difficult position to fill (SS) and have a possible leadoff type in Young for left field or to eventually replace Phillips. The money is essentially a wash after Votto signs a new contract. Don't get me wrong, I love Joey, but I love my Reds more. besides its just simple, armchair GM stuff.

757690
11-19-2010, 04:27 PM
Here's my thought process on Justin Upton:

It will take an overwhelming package, worth more than his actual individual worth to get him. A team will have to greatly overpay to get him.

He's one of the few players in the league that is worth overpaying for. He's young, already shown the ability to be a dominant player, and should be a strong force on any team both offensively and defensively for at least a decade. Plus he is locked up to a very reasonable contract.

The Reds are one of the few teams that have the resources to overpay for him, and still be competitive for years to come. The players that the Reds give up might end up being more valuable in terms of WAR over their career's than Upton ends up being, but none of them would likely be missed. Plus, Upton could still better help the Reds make the playoffs over the next decade, than the players traded for him. He could be like Rolen, more valuable than the sum of his own personal stats. I hate this expression, but ESPN would call him a "game-changer."

I think it's a perfect opportunity for the Reds to make a drastic upgrade in talent and competitiveness for a long time.

I would offer the D'Backs Volquez, Alonso, and Heisey, plus their choice of any two prospects ranked 7th or lower by Redszone in the Reds organization. If they insisted, I would include Mes or someone 2-6, but take back Alonso.

I would love to have this lineup:

Upton
Phillips
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Stubbs
Hanigan
Janish

757690
11-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Lets go completely out of the box here and offer Votto and Cozart to Colorado for Tulo and Eric Young Jr. It would not be popular initially but if we believe in Alonso or even Fransisco we could really upgrade a more difficult position to fill (SS) and have a possible leadoff type in Young for left field or to eventually replace Phillips. The money is essentially a wash after Votto signs a new contract. Don't get me wrong, I love Joey, but I love my Reds more. besides its just simple, armchair GM stuff.

Nice idea, but I don't see why Colorado would be interested. Tulo is younger, plays a more important position, and overall is better than Votto. Maybe include a better second player from Cincy, like Leake, and a slightly better second player than Young from Colorado like Stewart or Smith?

But I like the line of thinking. :)

brm7675
11-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Lets go completely out of the box here and offer Votto and Cozart to Colorado for Tulo and Eric Young Jr. It would not be popular initially but if we believe in Alonso or even Fransisco we could really upgrade a more difficult position to fill (SS) and have a possible leadoff type in Young for left field or to eventually replace Phillips. The money is essentially a wash after Votto signs a new contract. Don't get me wrong, I love Joey, but I love my Reds more. besides its just simple, armchair GM stuff.

NTIH, there is no way i give up Votto for anything less then a grade A+++ star and while Tulo is good, he is not at that level.

Hustleman
11-21-2010, 11:18 AM
not a big fan of any of them, but i'd take #2

Krawhitham
11-21-2010, 11:48 PM
No one will take CoCo and why would you deal phillips?

Because he is not worth close to 11 million

.275 59 rbi 16 sb with 12 cs.

those numbers are easy to replace

not to mention he is a clubhouse cancer

Krawhitham
11-21-2010, 11:54 PM
C. Who says it would take 20 million a year to get him? He is 36 and that will hurt his next contract where ever he goes.

The Yankees offered him 3 years 60 million, so YEAH it will take 20+ million


Why would he come to Cincinnati for less money?

He wants a 5-6 year deal and the Yankees want 3. No other team will guarantee him 60 million no matter how many years

lonewolf371
11-22-2010, 07:11 AM
Because he is not worth close to 11 million

.275 59 rbi 16 sb with 12 cs.

those numbers are easy to replace

not to mention he is a clubhouse cancer
Not that easy to do for a 2nd baseman and plus he has great defense. Phillips is actually a bargain at 11 million; his value is a little bit higher.

bounty37h
11-22-2010, 09:03 AM
Almost all contracts in baseball are guaranteed so even if they waived Cordero they would still be on the hook for his entire salary.

Thats why I have never understood simply waiving a guy, I would have him scrubbing jockstraps before letting him sit at home and collect if he didn't play at level what I pay him at.

Girevik
11-22-2010, 11:53 AM
Thats why I have never understood simply waiving a guy, I would have him scrubbing jockstraps before letting him sit at home and collect if he didn't play at level what I pay him at.

But he takes up a spot on the roster. If you have a guy in AAA that can do a better job than the vet, and you're on the hook for the salary either way, why not cut him and get the better player on your team? Your salary is basically the same, and your team is imporved.

bounty37h
11-23-2010, 11:33 AM
But he takes up a spot on the roster. If you have a guy in AAA that can do a better job than the vet, and you're on the hook for the salary either way, why not cut him and get the better player on your team? Your salary is basically the same, and your team is imporved.

Haha, I know, in my dream world I picture going up to a Corey Patterson for example, telling him to take off his uni, he is not on roster anymore, and handing him a broom to clean the clubhouse this season while he is being paid. I know it cant/doesnt work like that, just wish it did.

RedLakerFan24
11-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Because he is not worth close to 11 million

.275 59 rbi 16 sb with 12 cs.

those numbers are easy to replace

not to mention he is a clubhouse cancer

He's not a cancer, non of his teammates have any problems with him, wtf are you talking about???, him being lazy is different from being a cancer, i think his teammatest actually like him, i never heard of Brandon being a cancer.

jwertz
11-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Only three second basemen in MLB deserve that kind of money. Utley, Cano, and Phillips. They are clearly in a class by themselves. Brandon is a 2 hole guy. He has sacrificed alot for this franchise, hitting cleanup/leadoff. I think he deserves a break.

UC_Ken
11-24-2010, 12:02 AM
I'd talk to Jeter if he were willing to move to LF and if he were going to come cheap. Neither is going to happen. There's no way a team with limited resources should pay him $15 mil. per year to be a butcher at SS and be average offensively.

roby
11-24-2010, 12:48 AM
He's not a cancer, non of his teammates have any problems with him, wtf are you talking about???, him being lazy is different from being a cancer, i think his teammatest actually like him, i never heard of Brandon being a cancer.

I'm not buying that comment about Phillips being a cancer either. He is a great defensive 2nd baseman and can hit to boot. Brandon has one of the best personalities in baseball and is extremely fan friendly. I know there were a couple of occasions when he failed to hustle...but they were the exception and not the rule. Phillips is part of the answer, not part of the problem!

PeteRoseBelongs
12-10-2010, 10:13 AM
the only problem with Phillips is he tends to be lazy and not run out Flyballs or groundballs.

The issue I see and Im sure it will work itself out is you have some very talented players in the minors that need the opportunity on the big stage.

Valeika (sorry spelling) and Frazier need a chance to play every day in the majors. Phillips and his larger salary are standing in the way of that.

Rolen and his age are standing in the way of that. Francisco has nothing left to prove in the minors. As Reds fans we have had beaten into us this youth movement. We need to allow it to happen. I liked Rolen and still do. But at some pt you have to give these younger players a chance.

We watched as Rolen looked really old in the Phillies series. Phillips made bad judgments and of coarse the Bruce error. My only pt is that we need to give the youth a chance. I personally hope that when Rolen retires that he stays with the organization in a coaching role to help with these younger players.

Hondo
12-10-2010, 02:57 PM
the only problem with Phillips is he tends to be lazy and not run out Flyballs or groundballs.

The issue I see and Im sure it will work itself out is you have some very talented players in the minors that need the opportunity on the big stage.

Valeika (sorry spelling) and Frazier need a chance to play every day in the majors. Phillips and his larger salary are standing in the way of that.

Rolen and his age are standing in the way of that. Francisco has nothing left to prove in the minors. As Reds fans we have had beaten into us this youth movement. We need to allow it to happen. I liked Rolen and still do. But at some pt you have to give these younger players a chance.

We watched as Rolen looked really old in the Phillies series. Phillips made bad judgments and of coarse the Bruce error. My only pt is that we need to give the youth a chance. I personally hope that when Rolen retires that he stays with the organization in a coaching role to help with these younger players.

Roy Halladay and Cole Hamels made everyone look Old then, and ground balls made Phillips & Rolen Look Old then I guess...