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Orodle
11-25-2010, 12:39 PM
Saw on ESPN that the Mets will be shopping him. This would not only fill our SS hole but also our leadoff role. However, Reyes has been stricken by the injury bug most of his career.

mmt1552
11-25-2010, 01:01 PM
I've always liked Jose Reyes, and I think he could fit in nicely with this team. My #1 concern with the Reds is a bona-fide clean-up hitter (preferably a right handed hitting LF), but I would take a shot on Reyes if the cost isn't too much.

BEETTLEBUG
11-25-2010, 01:24 PM
What would it take to get Reyes and Beltran both and we pick up both salaries.

Jr's Boy
11-25-2010, 01:44 PM
What would it take to get Reyes and Beltran both and we pick up both salaries.

A wing and a prayer.

mroby85
11-25-2010, 04:53 PM
I'd like this a lot!

RedLakerFan24
11-25-2010, 05:58 PM
Homer Bailey, Todd Frazier, Chris Valaika

NorrisHopper30
11-25-2010, 08:06 PM
That would be awesome.

BEETTLEBUG
11-25-2010, 09:02 PM
That deal would be awesome but Mets need to send a little cash our way.

jwertz
11-25-2010, 10:04 PM
Could we send Cordero their way to account for some of that money? No way we get both. Too much cash. I would be thrilled if we could land Reyes, but I will be shocked if it happens.

Krawhitham
11-26-2010, 12:07 AM
What would it take to get Reyes and Beltran both and we pick up both salaries.

Less than it would take to get just Reyes

BEETTLEBUG
11-26-2010, 12:56 AM
Ok what would it take to get just Reyes then sign Lance Berkman.

joe51391
11-26-2010, 01:11 AM
reds get k-rod, reyes, beltran and money for coco cordero, bailey, francisco, and valaika

scott91575
11-26-2010, 07:39 AM
Ok what would it take to get just Reyes then sign Lance Berkman.

What do you want with Berkman, new bat boy? He is not playing first for the Reds, and that is the only position he can play in the NL. On top of all of that, put the fork in him, he is done.

scott91575
11-26-2010, 07:41 AM
reds get k-rod, reyes, beltran and money for coco cordero, bailey, francisco, and valaika

That is still a TON of money. No way that is even in the realm of possibilities. If the Mets give up money, they would want more than that. If the Mets don't give up the cash, no way the Reds can afford it.

Vottomatic
11-26-2010, 10:16 AM
I think if the Reds did a trade for Reyes and Beltran, we'd have to include an equal major leaguer for Reyes, and it would probably be Brandon Phillips ($11M). Reyes is set to make $10M this upcoming season and then he is a free agent. BP is a free agent after this season too, so that would be a wash.

We'd be taking Beltran off their hands since they've soured on him, but they have to take Cordero off our hands since we've soured on him, and they need a closer in lieu of K-Rod being suspended indefinitely. K-Rod isn't being paid right now and Cordero is in the last year of his contract.

Beltran ($18.5M) + Reyes ($10M) = $28.5M
Cordero ($12.1M) + Phillips ($11M) = $23.1M

All 4 players are in the last year of their contracts, so no long term contracts assumed.
You also have to consider that Beltran and Reyes have been injured a bunch the last 2 seasons, while Cordero and Phillips have had few health issues. The Reds are taking on more risk than the Mets based on history.

Reds have to sweeten deal with a few prospects. And maybe they get the Mets to throw in some ca$h.

Reds get power hitting and multi-talented LFer to protect Votto in the lineup. They also get Beltran in a contract year.
Reds also get proven leadoff hitter and solid SS in Reyes, also in a contract year.
Mets get proven gold glove and solid hitting second baseman in Phillips who stays healthy or plays injured in the last year of his contract. And they get a closer to replace the criminally minded K-Rod. Cordero in the last year of his contract obviously.

Who the Reds throw in is the mystery. I'm sure the Mets want a SS. Either Janish, Valaika or Cozart. Not crazy about giving up Janish or Cozart.

The best deal would be to trade the 4 main parts and not ask for money in return and then not give up many prospects. Make it mainly a trading of large salaries and players either soured upon or positions of need. Reds need a leadoff hitter and good hitting LFer badly.

Eric the Red
11-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Very compelling case Vottomatic. I'd pull the trigger if I'm Walt, and I think Alderson would also be inclined. In your scenario, the loss of Phillips would be big but the return makes it well worth it. We all have a similar feeling about Coco. An aging Beltran does concern me a bit but in a contract year he may be return to form. He was unbelieveable in the postseason for Houston before New York broke the bank for him.

Krawhitham
11-26-2010, 10:42 PM
What do you want with Berkman, new bat boy? He is not playing first for the Reds, and that is the only position he can play in the NL. On top of all of that, put the fork in him, he is done.

So is Beltran, and people here want to waste 19 million on him

Krawhitham
11-26-2010, 11:20 PM
Besides stealing bases what does Reyes do well?

His OBP was lower that Janish's, hell it's even lower than Stubbs & Gomes. So what makes him such a great leadoff hitter, stolen bases? His leg injuries are catching up with him and he only had 30 this season but was caught 25% of the time. Stubbs had 30 too and only was caught 16% of the time.

So Stubbs had a higher OBP and can steal a base more successfully, but somehow Reyes solves the Reds leadoff problem?

Reyes is not that good fielder, never was and now his leg issues have limited his range. Janish is a much better fielder

Janish has about the same power as Reyes maybe a little more, Last season Reyes his a HR ever 51 AB (53 for career) and Janish hit one every 40 AB

So Janish has more power, a higher OBP, and is a much better fielder.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for getting rid of Phillips & Coco but how does it make the Reds a better team. Well besides Chapman closes if Coco is gone, but all in all Coco did not have all that many blown saves last season. He had the same number as Papelbon with 3 more saves.

Beltran is done, stick a fork in him done. The Mets will release him by July next season.

Vottomatic
11-27-2010, 04:51 AM
So is Beltran, and people here want to waste 19 million on him

You're kidding right?

He turns 33 in April. Last time I checked, that isn't old.

He's been injured the last 2 seasons, but still managed in '09, in 80-some games to hit .325, hit 10 HR's, with an OBP over .400. He also stole 11 bases with being caught only once. Doesn't exactly sound like he's "done" to me. Plus, he's in a contract year. Only 32 years old and he has 280 career homers and 287 career stolen bases, with a career OBP of .359.

Reyes has a career OBP of .335. But before this past season, he had seasons of '09 - .355, '08 - .358, '07 - .354, '06 - .354 OBP. He also has 331 career stolen bases. And last year he stole 30 bases, and was caught only 10 times. He struck out only 63 times in '10 in over 500 at-bats. By comparison, Drew Stubbs struck out 168 times in over 500 at-bats while stealing 30 bases.

Reyes turns 28 next June. Hmmm. Yeah.......(sarcasm)......he's done.

It's foolish to think these guys are done. Plus, they're both in "contract" years. A good time to get both of them. They both have something to prove.

Vottomatic
11-27-2010, 04:53 AM
Very compelling case Vottomatic. I'd pull the trigger if I'm Walt, and I think Alderson would also be inclined. In your scenario, the loss of Phillips would be big but the return makes it well worth it. We all have a similar feeling about Coco. An aging Beltran does concern me a bit but in a contract year he may be return to form. He was unbelieveable in the postseason for Houston before New York broke the bank for him.

If the trade is a failure, both teams are only on the hook for one season. It's worth the risk. :thumbup:

BEETTLEBUG
11-27-2010, 06:23 AM
I agree VottoMatic I think it is a risk but a good risk if Beltran is heathly now.

Hondo
11-27-2010, 07:09 PM
I think trading Cordero straight up for Reyes would be a good Trade for both teams.

I think adding Beltran is a mistake. Wouldn't it make much more sense to add Carl Crawford for less Salary per year and who is 3 or 4 years younger than Beltran who stays healthy and plays Gold Glove Left Field Defense and provides the team with a Cold Stone Lead Off Hitter?

You're basically trading Harang and Cabrera's Salary for Crawford and swapping Reyes and Cordero's Salaries.

1. L LF Crawford
2. S SS Reyes
3. L 1B Votto
4. R 3B Rolen
5. L RF Bruce
6. R 2B Phillips
7. R CF Stubbs
8. R C Hernandez/Hanigan

Thats Potent.

Krawhitham
11-27-2010, 08:48 PM
You're kidding right?

He turns 33 in April. Last time I checked, that isn't old.

He's been injured the last 2 seasons, but still managed in '09, in 80-some games to hit .325, hit 10 HR's, with an OBP over .400. He also stole 11 bases with being caught only once. Doesn't exactly sound like he's "done" to me. Plus, he's in a contract year. Only 32 years old and he has 280 career homers and 287 career stolen bases, with a career OBP of .359.

Reyes has a career OBP of .335. But before this past season, he had seasons of '09 - .355, '08 - .358, '07 - .354, '06 - .354 OBP. He also has 331 career stolen bases. And last year he stole 30 bases, and was caught only 10 times. He struck out only 63 times in '10 in over 500 at-bats. By comparison, Drew Stubbs struck out 168 times in over 500 at-bats while stealing 30 bases.

Reyes turns 28 next June. Hmmm. Yeah.......(sarcasm)......he's done.

It's foolish to think these guys are done. Plus, they're both in "contract" years. A good time to get both of them. They both have something to prove.

I never said Reyes was done, he will continue to hit 12-17 HR and steal around 30-40 bags a year. My point was how does that make the Reds a better team? Yes his 60-80 bags a season are history as is his great range at SS. He still has a good arm but he is not a better fielder than Janish. Again how does Reyes improve the Reds?

Stubbs has a OBP similar to Reyes, he is a better base stealer and has a ton more power. Stubbs > Reyes as leadoff hitter

Janish is a better fielder, has basically the same power and OBP as Reyes
Janish > Reyes as a SS

but Beltran is done, I watched a lot of Mets games last season and he just does not move good anymore. He has lost his power and speed, there is still something not right with his right knee.

Bill James estimates for Beltran next year are 20hr 12sb 74rbi. I feel that is a best case scenario and no where worth 19.5 million

Stubbs > Beltran period

Krawhitham
11-27-2010, 09:11 PM
I agree VottoMatic I think it is a risk but a good risk if Beltran is heathly now.

no, even at 100% no

you would have 24% of the team payroll wrapped up in ONE player, not to mention the other 59 million will not field a winning team of 25 players

Arroyo is at 11m (48m left)
Rolen is a 6.5m (41.5m left)
Phillips or Reyes are at 11m (30.5m left)
Razor is a 3m (27.5m left)
Gomes is at 2m (25.5m left)
Masset is at 1.5m (24m left)
Chapman is at 1m (23m left)

five players are arbitration eligible Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez and Bill Bray

Joey will be around 7-9m
Bruce will be around 5-7m
Cueto will be around 6-8m
Volquez will be around 4-6m
Bray will be around 1-3m
total 23-33m

using the lowest numbers for arbitration eligible players and assuming you traded Coco away for Beltran you have ZERO remaining for the other 12 players that have to make at least 400k each (4.8m total). And do you really want half your team being paid league minimum, league minimum players are not normally all that good

Vottomatic
11-28-2010, 08:25 AM
no, even at 100% no

you would have 24% of the team payroll wrapped up in ONE player, not to mention the other 59 million will not field a winning team of 25 players

Arroyo is at 11m (48m left)
Rolen is a 6.5m (41.5m left)
Phillips or Reyes are at 11m (30.5m left)
Razor is a 3m (27.5m left)
Gomes is at 2m (25.5m left)
Masset is at 1.5m (24m left)
Chapman is at 1m (23m left)

five players are arbitration eligible Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez and Bill Bray

Joey will be around 7-9m
Bruce will be around 5-7m
Cueto will be around 6-8m
Volquez will be around 4-6m
Bray will be around 1-3m
total 23-33m

using the lowest numbers for arbitration eligible players and assuming you traded Coco away for Beltran you have ZERO remaining for the other 12 players that have to make at least 400k each (4.8m total). And do you really want half your team being paid league minimum, league minimum players are not normally all that good

Uh........I guessed you (conveniently) missed the part where I said the Mets send Ca$h to even out the deal.

Even so, if they didn't, it would add $5M to the payroll. FOR ONE YEAR. :rolleyes:

Geez. Some people misconstrue the facts big time.

Hondo
11-28-2010, 08:36 PM
Beltran is a mistake for any small market team with age and dollars regarding this teams needs...

Needs a lead off hitter & defensive left fielder.

Carl Crawford is the one player to spend some money on...

What good is having MVP Joey Votto if there isn't anyone to drive in or get on base in front of him?

Also, winning is the only thing that will make Joey want to stay Long Term.

Trade Cordero, sign Crawford... Win. Playoffs. Revenue. Sign Votto.

Girevik
11-29-2010, 02:25 PM
Trade Cordero, sign Crawford... Win. Playoffs. Revenue. Sign Votto.

Two problems:

1. The only way you're trading Cordero is by picking up almost all of his contract.

2. No matter how much you offer Crawford, New York or Boston can offer more. I don't think the Reds can afford to take on the type of contract it would take for the big boys to say "no thanks".

757690
11-29-2010, 03:34 PM
Beltran is a mistake for any small market team with age and dollars regarding this teams needs...

Needs a lead off hitter & defensive left fielder.

Carl Crawford is the one player to spend some money on...

What good is having MVP Joey Votto if there isn't anyone to drive in or get on base in front of him?

Also, winning is the only thing that will make Joey want to stay Long Term.

Trade Cordero, sign Crawford... Win. Playoffs. Revenue. Sign Votto.

Crawford will cost over $100M for at least 5 years. Reds can't afford that, and Votto and Bruce. I'd love for the Reds to sign him but he's going to the Red Sox or Angels.

The Reds can afford Beltran for one year, if they get rid of Cordero too.

bounty37h
12-01-2010, 04:31 PM
Saw on ESPN that the Mets will be shopping him. This would not only fill our SS hole but also our leadoff role. However, Reyes has been stricken by the injury bug most of his career.

Thats a whole lotta money to have always sitting on the IR...

Hondo
12-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Two problems:

1. The only way you're trading Cordero is by picking up almost all of his contract.

2. No matter how much you offer Crawford, New York or Boston can offer more. I don't think the Reds can afford to take on the type of contract it would take for the big boys to say "no thanks".

The Los Angeles Angels need a Closer and they paid Brian Fuentes almost that miuch last year before Trading him to the Twins.

Thats why I suggest the Reds trading Cordero to the Angels for little to nothing more than a Salary Dump.

Hondo
12-01-2010, 06:41 PM
Crawford will cost over $100M for at least 5 years. Reds can't afford that, and Votto and Bruce. I'd love for the Reds to sign him but he's going to the Red Sox or Angels.

The Reds can afford Beltran for one year, if they get rid of Cordero too.

Heres the Deal my friend. The Reds have control of Votto and Bruce for 3 more years.

If Walt were to give Crawford 5 years... by the 4th year, Bronson Arroyo may be coming off the Books if he signs the 3 year extension at that same time. Also Brandon Phillips probably won't be getting 11 million per year by then from this team anyway, and Rolen will be gone.

So all the numbers would fit with Rolen gone, Phillips not making 11 Million, Arroyo either not here or that 3rd year would be his Free Agent Year anyway with 13 Million coming off the Books. (If he does get a 13 Million per year/ 3 year contract extension as rumored)

Girevik
12-02-2010, 09:31 AM
Thats why I suggest the Reds trading Cordero to the Angels for little to nothing more than a Salary Dump.

Still don't get it. My point was that no matter what the Reds offered Crawford, one of the big market teams would out bid them. So you trade Cordero for nothing to dump his salary. Crawford goes to NY, Boston, wherever. What have you accomplished? Sure you saved money, but if there is no one our there to spend it on that helps your team are you really stronger?

I basically think there is a 0% chance the Reds cand sign Crawford no matter who they move, so I don't see how moving Cordero and having a lower payroll helps the team on the field.

Vottomatic
12-02-2010, 02:52 PM
Still don't get it. My point was that no matter what the Reds offered Crawford, one of the big market teams would out bid them. So you trade Cordero for nothing to dump his salary. Crawford goes to NY, Boston, wherever. What have you accomplished? Sure you saved money, but if there is no one our there to spend it on that helps your team are you really stronger?

I basically think there is a 0% chance the Reds cand sign Crawford no matter who they move, so I don't see how moving Cordero and having a lower payroll helps the team on the field.

I agree with you. Forget Crawford.

It's more financially feasible to trade for Choo, Ellsbury or some other leadoff hitter not making a ton of money yet.

I'd still like to dump Cordero because I'm a fan of closer by committee. I hate bringing in the same guy every time and Dusty thinking he has to stick with him because he's the "closer" and making a ton of money. If a relief pitcher clearly doesn't have it that day, you yank him after he walks the first 2 batters, is clearly missing the strike zone.........and don't stick with him because he has some silly title of "Closer" and making a bunch of money. Go with the hot hand and win the game. I'd like to just eliminate the title of Closer for next year and do it by committee. And yes, I'd like to save that $12 million to pay for arbitration raises, and possibly add a few key pieces.

Hondo
12-02-2010, 05:03 PM
Still don't get it. My point was that no matter what the Reds offered Crawford, one of the big market teams would out bid them. So you trade Cordero for nothing to dump his salary. Crawford goes to NY, Boston, wherever. What have you accomplished? Sure you saved money, but if there is no one our there to spend it on that helps your team are you really stronger?

I basically think there is a 0% chance the Reds cand sign Crawford no matter who they move, so I don't see how moving Cordero and having a lower payroll helps the team on the field.

Yeah, why would any Free Agent want to come to Cincinnati? :rolleyes:

Girevik
12-03-2010, 05:02 PM
Yeah, why would any Free Agent want to come to Cincinnati? :rolleyes:

How is that even CLOSE to what I said? All I'm saying is that if the Res offer $20M per for 5 years for Crawford, one of the big boys will go $23M, or 7 years. Crafword is the #1 guy on the market, and there are just too many teams that want him. It's not a matter of not wanting to come to Cincy, it's a matter of Cincy not having the resources of the big market teams. It sucks, and I wish it weren't true, but that's the way it is.

Heck, I've been saying almost since the season started that Crawford is the ONE GUY the Reds need to complete the puzzle. If I thought the Reds could land him I'd be in favor of trading almost ANYONE to get him. Just don't think they have the bullets to get it done, so if you trade guys to make room for him you end up missing out on Crawford AND not having the guys you had before.

Hondo
12-04-2010, 07:28 PM
•The Mets will listen to offers for Jose Reyes, and unless the two sides agree to a contract extension, they will move the shortstop before the trade deadline next July.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/olneys-latest-gonzalez-red-sox-reynolds-reyes.html

Ok well instead of signing Crawford... This might make more sense for this Team.

Trade for Reyes. SS and Lead off hitter are aquired.

Gomes stays in Left Field and gets spelled for late inning defense by Heisey...

I think the Reds Trade Volquez & two #4-#20 prospects to the Mets and this Trade goes down.

Mets looking for Starting Pitching...

Then I am off my Crawford Rocker if Walt pulls the trigger on this...

Although if Walt went and Signed Crawford anyway, ha ha

Crawford
Reyes
Votto
Rolen
Bruce
Phillips
Gomes
Hernadez/Hanigan