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Hondo
11-29-2010, 08:28 PM
Hey Guys,

I have been doing some thinking. The Royals have put Greinke out there on the market and I think that if the Reds start a package of Edinson Volquez, and Chris Heisey along with a few other prospects. The parting with Volquez would be strong enough to get this deal done. The payroll could be absorbed and the Reds get a guaranteed 200+ Innings and a guy to slide right behind Arroyo in the rotation.

Volquez might go on to win 15-20 games a year but he is an Injury risk. Grienke is Kevin Brown stuff in a Prime Years Body who would fit in perfect with this young team.

Arroyo
Greinke
Leake
Wood
Bailey

Vottomatic
11-29-2010, 09:50 PM
Greinke's stats sucked last year. Maybe he's on the decline?

Not sure I trade much for him. And KC wants a boatload for him.

lonewolf371
11-29-2010, 10:21 PM
Greinke's stats sucked last year. Maybe he's on the decline?

Not sure I trade much for him. And KC wants a boatload for him.
The only bad stat was ERA. He still put up 220 innings pitched, 7.4 K/9, 2.25 BB/9. His fielding independent numbers were terrific, his ERA last season should have been more around 3.34 with average fielding. Put him with the Reds' defense against NL lineups without the DH and I bet his ERA instantly drops back down around that range, maybe lower.

KC should want a boatload for him, but any team that gets him is getting a boatload in return. He would instantly be the Reds' best pitcher as soon as the deal was signed.

Vottomatic
11-30-2010, 12:49 AM
The only bad stat was ERA. He still put up 220 innings pitched, 7.4 K/9, 2.25 BB/9. His fielding independent numbers were terrific, his ERA last season should have been more around 3.34 with average fielding. Put him with the Reds' defense against NL lineups without the DH and I bet his ERA instantly drops back down around that range, maybe lower.

KC should want a boatload for him, but any team that gets him is getting a boatload in return. He would instantly be the Reds' best pitcher as soon as the deal was signed.

ERA
2009 2.19
2010 4.17
Yeah, I guess bad defense accounted for 2 more runs allowed per 9 innings. I'm sure the official scorer missed a ton of errors. :rolleyes:

Innings Pitched
2009 229
2010 220

Hits allowed
2009 195
2010 219

Earned Runs
2009 55
2010 102
Yep, defense was the main contributing factor in his earned runs nearly doubling in about the same amount of innings pitched. :rolleyes:

K's
2009 242
2010 181

Batting Average Against
2009 .230
2010 .260
Yep, I guess the defense allowed the hitters to hit 30 points higher against him last year too. :rolleyes:

Maybe KC knows something others don't? Maybe they're selling high before his value plummets? Hmmmm.

Pony Boy
11-30-2010, 10:44 AM
I would stay away from Grienke. KC is trying to sell him before the wheels fall off. I say we roll with the guys we have and hope for marginal improvement from the young guys. That adds up to a pretty good lineup.

Walt needs to make a big splash in LF and leave the rest of the team alone.

RedLakerFan24
11-30-2010, 12:42 PM
Alonso, Bailey, Mes, Yorman for Grienke
Volquez, Francisco, Frazier for Reyes

Not Going To Happen But One Could Dream

mattfeet
11-30-2010, 12:52 PM
Alonso, Bailey, Mes, Yorman for Grienke
Volquez, Francisco, Frazier for Reyes

Not Going To Happen But One Could Dream

Absolutely not worth it for me, IMO.

-Matt

757690
11-30-2010, 01:23 PM
Greinke has a huge contract, and will be a free agent in two years.

That should be taken into account in all trade offers.

He's a good catch, but not worth overpaying, imo.

757690
11-30-2010, 01:26 PM
ERA
2009 2.19
2010 4.17
Yeah, I guess bad defense accounted for 2 more runs allowed per 9 innings. I'm sure the official scorer missed a ton of errors. :rolleyes:

Innings Pitched
2009 229
2010 220

Hits allowed
2009 195
2010 219

Earned Runs
2009 55
2010 102
Yep, defense was the main contributing factor in his earned runs nearly doubling in about the same amount of innings pitched. :rolleyes:

K's
2009 242
2010 181

Batting Average Against
2009 .230
2010 .260
Yep, I guess the defense allowed the hitters to hit 30 points higher against him last year too. :rolleyes:

Maybe KC knows something others don't? Maybe they're selling high before his value plummets? Hmmmm.

That .30 bump in BA against amounts to around 25 hits. That's less than one a game. That easily can be ascribed to defense and luck.

Hondo
11-30-2010, 05:22 PM
ERA
2009 2.19
2010 4.17
Yeah, I guess bad defense accounted for 2 more runs allowed per 9 innings. I'm sure the official scorer missed a ton of errors. :rolleyes:

Innings Pitched
2009 229
2010 220

Hits allowed
2009 195
2010 219

Earned Runs
2009 55
2010 102
Yep, defense was the main contributing factor in his earned runs nearly doubling in about the same amount of innings pitched. :rolleyes:

K's
2009 242
2010 181

Batting Average Against
2009 .230
2010 .260
Yep, I guess the defense allowed the hitters to hit 30 points higher against him last year too. :rolleyes:

Maybe KC knows something others don't? Maybe they're selling high before his value plummets? Hmmmm.

VottoDude,

Love the stat comparison but heres the real deal.

The Royals were so terrible last year as of June 8th, Greinke was 1-8

That is a RECORD of 1 Win to 8 Losses.

He came back to Win 9 More games and lose 6 to finish admirely at 10-14

This guy has serious stuff.

The Royals did nothing to help this guy and it could have been worse if he wasnt such a dang good pitcher. Greinke with any help could have been 15 wins and 8 losses if he had "ANY" help from the offense...

He is a competitor.

lonewolf371
12-01-2010, 12:39 AM
ERA
2009 2.19
2010 4.17
Yeah, I guess bad defense accounted for 2 more runs allowed per 9 innings. I'm sure the official scorer missed a ton of errors. :rolleyes:

Innings Pitched
2009 229
2010 220

Hits allowed
2009 195
2010 219

Earned Runs
2009 55
2010 102
Yep, defense was the main contributing factor in his earned runs nearly doubling in about the same amount of innings pitched. :rolleyes:

K's
2009 242
2010 181

Batting Average Against
2009 .230
2010 .260
Yep, I guess the defense allowed the hitters to hit 30 points higher against him last year too. :rolleyes:

Maybe KC knows something others don't? Maybe they're selling high before his value plummets? Hmmmm.
Great numbers, but you're ignoring that his FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) jumped from 2.33 to 3.34, which is an indication of what his ERA would have been with average fielding and takes into account the defense of his team. It's still a big jump but to be honest 2.33 is unsustainable for any pitcher in baseball. 3.34 is better than CC Sabathia last year and only 0.3 higher than Felix Hernandez. He still struck out more than Sabathia and walked less than Hernandez, so yes, I'm willing to attribute Greinke's ERA to his team's terrible defense. I also don't see a good reason why a 27 year-old pitcher would regress this much.

Hondo
12-01-2010, 05:49 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

If the Rangers lose Lee to the Yankees, they will likely consider trading for Zack Greinke. The Royals like Rangers prospects Martin Perez and Tanner Scheppers.

Now come on! The Reds can make a comparable offer and get a 27 year old Cy Young Winner.

Walt, when you were in St. Louis, you made these trades! Lets go sir!

Vottomatic
12-01-2010, 10:38 PM
It won't happen. Reds have enough cheap starting pitching. And Reds can't compete with large market teams going after Greinke.

But keep dreaming.

Girevik
12-02-2010, 08:39 AM
And Reds can't compete with large market teams going after Greinke.

I disagree here. Right now the Reds are LOADED with prospects, and payroll really isn't a factor in a trade like this. There's no reason a large market team has an advantage here. If he were a free agent, it would be a different story.

Vottomatic
12-02-2010, 01:46 PM
I disagree here. Right now the Reds are LOADED with prospects, and payroll really isn't a factor in a trade like this. There's no reason a large market team has an advantage here. If he were a free agent, it would be a different story.

I meant, we can't afford to add that much payroll.

Hondo
12-02-2010, 04:09 PM
It won't happen. Reds have enough cheap starting pitching. And Reds can't compete with large market teams going after Greinke.

But keep dreaming.

The Reds cannot compete with Total Payroll... But not competing with the Yanks and Red Sox for Trades? Hello Mr. Negative...

The Yankees farm system isnt very good, the Sox not much better, and the Rangers farm system is down to a few blus chips...

Look what Seattle got for Lee, Smoak and a couple other prospects, nothing special.

Greinke would cost the Reds Volquez and about 2-3 "prospects"

In fact, I think a package of Volquez, Heisey, a prospect, and I am serious about this next player... Gomes with his 20 Homers and 80+ RBI getting Greinke...

Greinke is exactley the type of player/pitcher this team needs... another bonafide 200+ Inning pitcher with serious talent to go with Arroyo while Wood, Leake, etc... continue to develop.

lonewolf371
12-03-2010, 08:28 AM
I meant, we can't afford to add that much payroll.
He's under contract through 2012 and it's also a contract that's very favorable to the team that has him ($38 million/4 years). After that the Reds wouldn't be able to keep him if they sign Votto, but he would be here for the main run at a World Series title and at the end of that period if Votto can't be signed then the Reds could focus on Greinke.

I actually think the biggest problem is probably the prospects the Reds can offer. Yes, they have some good ones but they're not as good as what the Rangers have. The Rangers actually didn't give up any of their top prospects other than Smoak to acquire Lee and their two top pitching prospects outside of Feliz (at least among prospects at the beginning of last year) are still on the farm.

brm7675
12-03-2010, 01:01 PM
Has anyone considered that he might not want to play in cincy? he has a no trade clause so he can pick and chose where he goes.

gedred69
12-03-2010, 07:08 PM
Has anyone considered that he might not want to play in cincy? he has a no trade clause so he can pick and chose where he goes.

With the emergance of the young talent on this team, it has to be very interesting to "younger" players looking to hook up with a potentially contending team. But, as the Reds just extended Arroyo, I doubt there is any more interest in trading for a high $$ pitcher, given the young promising arms already in the fold.

Hondo
12-04-2010, 06:02 PM
With the emergance of the young talent on this team, it has to be very interesting to "younger" players looking to hook up with a potentially contending team. But, as the Reds just extended Arroyo, I doubt there is any more interest in trading for a high $$ pitcher, given the young promising arms already in the fold.

I don't think Arroyo's extension does anything to counter any othr future moves... It actually gives more flexibility as it is 11 Million in both 2012-2013.

lonewolf371
12-05-2010, 11:11 AM
Has anyone considered that he might not want to play in cincy? he has a no trade clause so he can pick and chose where he goes.
It's possible. But I think what he wants is to not go to a big-market city and be on a good team. The Reds would provide both of those. In addition, the Reds would have fielding of a quality that he's never seen before; I'm sure he'd find that attractive.

757690
12-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Has anyone considered that he might not want to play in cincy? he has a no trade clause so he can pick and chose where he goes.

I believe it's limited, and the Reds are not on the list of teams he doesn't want to be traded to.

He's actually looking for a team just like the Reds... small town, but competitive.

texasdave
12-05-2010, 04:57 PM
I believe it's limited, and the Reds are not on the list of teams he doesn't want to be traded to.

He's actually looking for a team just like the Reds... small town, but competitive.

Yep.


While the Blue Jays may face an obstacle in landing the ace, other potential suitors are not on the no-trade list. The Braves, Reds, and Rangers were all left off of the fifteen team list.

Natty Redlocks
12-05-2010, 05:54 PM
Hey Guys,

I have been doing some thinking. The Royals have put Greinke out there on the market and I think that if the Reds start a package of Edinson Volquez, and Chris Heisey along with a few other prospects. The parting with Volquez would be strong enough to get this deal done. The payroll could be absorbed and the Reds get a guaranteed 200+ Innings and a guy to slide right behind Arroyo in the rotation.

Volquez might go on to win 15-20 games a year but he is an Injury risk. Grienke is Kevin Brown stuff in a Prime Years Body who would fit in perfect with this young team.

Arroyo
Greinke
Leake
Wood
Bailey

Someone on the Big Boy Board made the point that the Royals' great prospects are all 2-3 years away so any prospects they'd want to add would probably have to be younger and cheaper than Volquez; this makes sense. I doubt the Reds want to deal Wood but Leake seems more likely. Any Greinke deal I would start with Leake and Sappelt, then add guys I've never heard of but I'd sound like I knew what I was talking about if I dropped their names. But like I said elsewhere, Greinke's anxiety issues might be something we don't want to gloss over when paying through the nose for a "true ace".

redsfanmia
12-05-2010, 06:25 PM
No thanks on Grienke, he has had anxiety problems and after dealing with that on a daily basis with my wife I would stay away. It is just a matter of time before he has an issue just like it is a matter of time before Votto has another issue.

Hondo
12-05-2010, 07:21 PM
No thanks on Grienke, he has had anxiety problems and after dealing with that on a daily basis with my wife I would stay away. It is just a matter of time before he has an issue just like it is a matter of time before Votto has another issue.

We'll take Greinke, you keep your wife and don't trade her to the Reds

;)

redsfanmia
12-05-2010, 08:01 PM
We'll take Greinke, you keep your wife and don't trade her to the Reds

;)

I am just saying that I would not want to build my team around guys with anxiety issues, it will always rear its ugly head. I would look to deal Votto right now while he is relatively cheap and his value is at its highest.

urdun
12-06-2010, 03:38 AM
per insider:
One unnamed Royals official told Bob Dutton in Sunday's Kansas City Star: "We'd want two young players who can make a major impact, and maybe two guys who can help us out in some way. If we don't get that, we don't make the trade. It's that simple."


Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun reports Saturday that the Blue Jays remain very interested in Greinke's services. The Jays could offer right-hander Kyle Drabek and (Brett) Lawrie as part of a package, and have right fielder Travis Snider and catcher Travis d'Arnaud to dangle in front of Dayton Moore.

there is more to the story if you have espn access but these are key points for reds fans to remember.

Vottomatic
12-06-2010, 12:18 PM
One unnamed Royals official told Bob Dutton in Sunday's Kansas City Star: "We'd want two young players who can make a major impact, and maybe two guys who can help us out in some way. If we don't get that, we don't make the trade. It's that simple."

Two young players who can make a major impact:
1. One of Bailey, Cueto, Volquez or Leake. I don't wanna give up Travis Wood.
2. KC's current roster in terms of Outfielders lists as starters Gregor Blanco in CF. He played in about 50 games last year and has 2 years in the majors. Jarryd Dyson, drafted in the 50th round, played in 18 games last year in his first season batting .211. And David Lough, a former 11th round draft pick, who has never played in the majors. I think KC could use a possible outfield impact player. I'd give them Heisey.

Two young players who can help us out in some way:
Two of the following list - Dorn, Jordan Smith (other than Soria, Hughes and Robinson Tejeda, KC's bullpen was a disaster), Jared Burton, Matt Maloney, Daryl Thompson, Matt Klinker, Dennis Phipps, Kris Negron, Sean Henry........

If they chose Smith, Burton, Maloney, or Thompson as their second group 2, they would pick up 4 players with major league service..........not bad.

Hondo
12-06-2010, 03:35 PM
per insider:



there is more to the story if you have espn access but these are key points for reds fans to remember.

Snider, Drabek, Lawrie, & catcher Travis d'Arnaud ?

That would be a good trade for the Royals!

I know the Reds could put a comparible package together but if I was Dayton Moore, I would probably take that package...

tbball10
12-06-2010, 07:47 PM
Anybody worried about Travis Wood's innings jump last year?

2009- 167.2
2010- 202.2 (not including playoffs)

R_Webb18
12-06-2010, 10:33 PM
Anybody worried about Travis Wood's innings jump last year?

2009- 167.2
2010- 202.2 (not including playoffs)

um no? around 30 is normal I thought?

BLEEDS
12-06-2010, 11:57 PM
That .30 bump in BA against amounts to around 25 hits. That's less than one a game. That easily can be ascribed to defense and luck.

Not to mention he played in the AL with a DH.

He would easily be the best pitcher on our roster, by a long shot, and that's IF you take out his "outlier" 2009.

His stuff isn't changing; BAA, BAPIP, Defense, Luck, etc, etc... same stuff. He's not on the decline.

That said, I'm not selling the farm for him - and if history has shown us anything, it's that every deal that ends up getting done is never as much as one thinks it should be - I think pretty much every deal we here at RZ say "We could have beat that!", so yes prospects are overrated, but since they are by every GM in the majors apparently, they are what they are.

No way we have to give 2 of Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Leake, Wood. At best one, and maybe a Maloney/Lecure, and one of Alonso/Frazier - and even that seems too much than what is likely to occur.

I did read that Walt has stated publicly that he hasn't spoken to the Royals about Greinke.
Translation - that is usually when he strikes!

Stay Tuned!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Hondo
12-07-2010, 02:41 PM
Not to mention he played in the AL with a DH.

He would easily be the best pitcher on our roster, by a long shot, and that's IF you take out his "outlier" 2009.

His stuff isn't changing; BAA, BAPIP, Defense, Luck, etc, etc... same stuff. He's not on the decline.

That said, I'm not selling the farm for him - and if history has shown us anything, it's that every deal that ends up getting done is never as much as one thinks it should be - I think pretty much every deal we here at RZ say "We could have beat that!", so yes prospects are overrated, but since they are by every GM in the majors apparently, they are what they are.

No way we have to give 2 of Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Leake, Wood. At best one, and maybe a Maloney/Lecure, and one of Alonso/Frazier - and even that seems too much than what is likely to occur.

I did read that Walt has stated publicly that he hasn't spoken to the Royals about Greinke.
Translation - that is usually when he strikes!

Stay Tuned!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b7s0H

I read that report too where Jocketty hasn't even spoken to the Royals about Greinke...

That in itself is dissapointing to me...

I hope it is just Walt trying to throw off other teams because that would be very discouraging to me if the Reds GM hasn't at least kicked the tires on Grienke...

It has to be fodder for the Media to keep it quiet... He would have at least had to speak to Dayton Moore, wouldn't he?

FlyerFanatic
12-10-2010, 05:46 PM
according to jon heyman on twitter, saying phillies are trading for grienke....rich get richer

Hondo
12-10-2010, 05:47 PM
according to jon heyman on twitter, saying phillies are trading for grienke....rich get richer

Wow, if that is True, then I am disgusted at the Front Office.

FlyerFanatic
12-10-2010, 06:01 PM
Wow, if that is True, then I am disgusted at the Front Office.

scratch that, looks like some twitter person has a fake account kind of like heymans name that tweeted it.

Hondo
12-15-2010, 04:01 PM
QUOTE

•Were it not for his salary, the Reds might be a more serious suitor for Zack Greinke. However, a rival executive says Cincinnati is “tapped out,” payroll-wise.

QUOTE

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cincinnati_reds/index.html

Wow, I am very dissapointed Now!

Walt please move Cordero to make room for Greinke and plug Masset in the Closer Role!

Vottomatic
12-15-2010, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I'm disappointed to.

Cordero and Phillips come off the books next season.

The Reds can't take on some extra payroll for one season?

lonewolf371
12-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Unfortunately, the Reds exist to make a profit, not to win a World Series. Makes sense to me.

mattfeet
12-16-2010, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately, the Reds exist to make a profit, not to win a World Series. Makes sense to me.

Quotes like this baffle me. Do you SERIOUSLY think the Reds aren't trying to field the best team that makes financial sense? Trading people in real life and fielding a WS-caliber team is a lot harder than on a video game. We just won our first division title in 15 years, but yet we're still 'not trying'. Get outta here.

-Matt

WillRich
12-16-2010, 01:22 PM
While Zack Greinke would look good in a Reds uniform. I am against acquiring him. The Reds already have 7 major league pitchers and while it would take a couple to get Greinke, it would also take quite a few prospects. The price tag for Greinke is awfully high and I'm not to sure the Reds are just great at the left field and shortstop positions.
There are all kinds of guys that the Reds could acquire, just to name a few SS's:
Jose Reyes, Ian Desmond, Stephen Drew
There are quite a few CF's/LF's:
Brett Gardner, BJ Upton, Curtis Granderson, Chris Young, Jacoby Ellsbury, Mike Cameron, Jose Bautista, Grady Sizemore, and maybe just maybe Matt Kemp.
Any of these guys could fit well with the Reds in my opinion and it wouldn't take near as many prospects and we could fill the holes that need to be filled desperately.
If we could acquire maybe Sizemore and Desmond our line-up could look like this:
C: Hernandez/Hanigan
1B: Joey Votto
2B: Brandon Phillips
3B: Scott Rolen
SS: Ian Desmond
LF: Grady Sizemore
CF: Drew Stubbs
RF: Jay Bruce

This would be one of the best outfields in the game and a top of the line infields for years to come. While Sizemore has had injury problems, when he was healthy he was one of, if not the best, center fielders in the game.

lonewolf371
12-17-2010, 01:27 PM
Quotes like this baffle me. Do you SERIOUSLY think the Reds aren't trying to field the best team that makes financial sense? Trading people in real life and fielding a WS-caliber team is a lot harder than on a video game. We just won our first division title in 15 years, but yet we're still 'not trying'. Get outta here.

-Matt
Er, what? You repeated what I said. "Makes financial sense" includes "make a profit". Yes, they're trying to field the best team, to get more fans to come, to make more money. But ultimately it's a business and they're not going to a $100 million payroll to win a WS.

Hondo
12-17-2010, 01:47 PM
While Zack Greinke would look good in a Reds uniform. I am against acquiring him. The Reds already have 7 major league pitchers and while it would take a couple to get Greinke, it would also take quite a few prospects. The price tag for Greinke is awfully high and I'm not to sure the Reds are just great at the left field and shortstop positions.
There are all kinds of guys that the Reds could acquire, just to name a few SS's:
Jose Reyes, Ian Desmond, Stephen Drew
There are quite a few CF's/LF's:
Brett Gardner, BJ Upton, Curtis Granderson, Chris Young, Jacoby Ellsbury, Mike Cameron, Jose Bautista, Grady Sizemore, and maybe just maybe Matt Kemp.
Any of these guys could fit well with the Reds in my opinion and it wouldn't take near as many prospects and we could fill the holes that need to be filled desperately.
If we could acquire maybe Sizemore and Desmond our line-up could look like this:
C: Hernandez/Hanigan
1B: Joey Votto
2B: Brandon Phillips
3B: Scott Rolen
SS: Ian Desmond
LF: Grady Sizemore
CF: Drew Stubbs
RF: Jay Bruce

This would be one of the best outfields in the game and a top of the line infields for years to come. While Sizemore has had injury problems, when he was healthy he was one of, if not the best, center fielders in the game.

I could see the Cleveland Indians Trading Sizemore to move his Salary but him moving to Left Field and Leading off... You all would probably complain about his Strikeout's -

His full years in the Majors:

2005 132
2006 153
2007 155
2008 130

2009 92K in 106 Games

Also last year he played in a total of 33 Games, Struck out 35 times and hit Zero Homerun's.

I am not sure he would be a good Investment @ $7,666,667 for a guy who hasn't played a full season in 2 years....

2011 Salary http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKIJtE0J83GL-6XiTzecEBw&output=html

Ian Desmond is not the answer and is not worth the Prospects. Also he is a piece the Nationals are Building around.

I don't think Garnder would be productive on any other team than the Yankees...

Melky Cabrera in Atlanta Example...

The only trade possible IMP is Alonso for B.J. Upton and unless he cuts down on his K's, nobody on RedsZone will be happy...

I would rather go with Gomes in Left. IMO he will hit 30 Homers in 2011 and be better in the field... Based on trends of his defensive improvement and his playing time the last few years... The more you play the better you get...

I am not saying he is going to win a GOLD GLOVE...


I would say trade Edinson Volquez for Carlos Reyes of the Mets, trade Cordero to Detroit, Anaheim, or the White Sox...

Then do what it takes within reason to land Zach Greinke...

Read this about Greinke: http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2010/12/being-there-with-greinke.html

That fields the best possible team for 2011 and you have Reyes in a contract year which I think he will have his best Season!

Razzle
12-17-2010, 05:24 PM
I would rather go with Gomes in Left. IMO he will hit 30 Homers in 2011 and be better in the field... Based on trends of his defensive improvement and his playing time the last few years... The more you play the better you get...
Those are some lofty goals for a guy who has never hit more than 21 homers and who is now on the wrong side of 30. He's more likely to decline than improve both offensively and defensively.

knoonan991
12-17-2010, 05:59 PM
QUOTE

•Were it not for his salary, the Reds might be a more serious suitor for Zack Greinke. However, a rival executive says Cincinnati is “tapped out,” payroll-wise.

QUOTE

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/cincinnati_reds/index.html

Wow, I am very dissapointed Now!

Walt please move Cordero to make room for Greinke and plug Masset in the Closer Role!

Yeah, because there is a great market for old overpaid closers who have been struggling.

You can't just move somebody if there isn't a fit.

While I would like Greinke, I think we need to see what a full year of Volquez/Bailey provides us.

Hondo
12-17-2010, 06:57 PM
Yeah, because there is a great market for old overpaid closers who have been struggling.

You can't just move somebody if there isn't a fit.

While I would like Greinke, I think we need to see what a full year of Volquez/Bailey provides us.

Angels & White Sox NEED A CLOSER

Detroit is searching for a Possible CLOSER.

Boston Red Sox still looking for Relief Pitching.

All Big money teams that can take the contract.

Now if you're trying to deal him to Tampa Bay or Pittsburgh, you might run into a slight budget problem....

Slight being Sarcastic...

Girevik
12-17-2010, 10:17 PM
If you've got a deal lined up for Grienke, then I have no problem moving Cordero (but I think we have bigger needs than SP, and I'm not sure Grienke isn't overvalued), but I don't see the point in moving Cordero if you don't have a specific target for his dollars. I look for Cordero to have a bounce-back year, and I don't see how the team is better minus Cordero if you're not using the freed up money.

Todd Gack
12-18-2010, 12:55 AM
Put me down as a guy who's not willing to trade for Greinke.

Google "greinke anxiety"

I'm not going to trade multiple prospects and sign him to a long term deal if he has some deep anxiety issues. What? Are you sure he won't act up at any point when it's September in a playoff race? Too much at stake to trade for a guy with those kind of issues.

757690
12-18-2010, 01:02 AM
Put me down as a guy who's not willing to trade for Greinke.

Google "greinke anxiety"

I'm not going to trade multiple prospects and sign him to a long term deal if he has some deep anxiety issues. What? Are you sure he won't act up at any point when it's September in a playoff race? Too much at stake to trade for a guy with those kind of issues.

Especially when the main reason for trading for him is to go deeper into the playoffs if the Reds get there. He may have the anxiety issue under control, but I don't want to give up a ton of talent to get him, and then he pulls an Ankiel in the playoffs.

I don't mind acquiring him if the price is right, but it sounds like the Royals want a kings ransom for him. If that's the case, I'll pass.

twill
12-18-2010, 11:06 AM
After reading an article on Greinke, I am intrigued, he strikes me as someone on the Autisim spectrum. Because of the recent increase in this condition, there will be more and more people with certain quirks that many of us would consider strange, concerning or irritating, when in fact, these individuals can often excel at many things. I am in no way diagnosing anyone, but even our MVP could be considered. Having some firsthand experience with these things, my goal is to help allay some concerns over "social anxiety issues" and the fears of acquiring someone as good as Greinke. Obviously there are risks, as with any players. I love our team and decided to throw there thoughts out there to possibly add some perspective. And yes, I realize this is "out there" for one's first post on Redzone.

Vottomatic
12-18-2010, 11:37 AM
The more I read the Greinke thread on the ORG, the more I think the Reds pull off this deal. I think it will happen.

And I bet it hinges on the Reds unloading Cordero's salary first, then they pull the trigger on Greinke.

On the ORG thread, someone said that Greinke has stated that Cincinnati is the best destination for him. Small market and competitive. Interesting.

mattfeet
12-18-2010, 12:00 PM
If the Reds unload Cordero, who is our new closer? If we could be guaranteed closer-by-committee, then Im on board.

-Matt

Caveman Techie
12-18-2010, 01:17 PM
Despite the suggested teams being "big market" they still will not trade for an aging closer who can't get three consecutive outs in a row.

arkimadee
12-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Casey Stern made a good point today on MLB Radio. Grienke went 10-14 with a 4.10 ERA last year. Yes the Royals offense was bad, but lets face it, it would be a huge gamble to give alot up for this guy.

757690
12-18-2010, 03:57 PM
Casey Stern made a good point today on MLB Radio. Grienke went 10-14 with a 4.10 ERA last year. Yes the Royals offense was bad, but lets face it, it would be a huge gamble to give alot up for this guy.

It wasn't just their offense that was bad. Their defense was terrible too. I think he would benefit moving to the Reds who have one of the best defenses in the majors.

His stuff is as good as anyone's in the league, and that includes control and knowing how to pitch. For me the only issues are his salary, length of contract and emotional problems. None of them are deal breakers, but they each lower his overall value, imo. So I agree, the question is how much to give up for him.

lonewolf371
12-18-2010, 04:57 PM
It wasn't just their offense that was bad. Their defense was terrible too. I think he would benefit moving to the Reds who have one of the best defenses in the majors.

His stuff is as good as anyone's in the league, and that includes control and knowing how to pitch. For me the only issues are his salary, length of contract and emotional problems. None of them are deal breakers, but they each lower his overall value, imo. So I agree, the question is how much to give up for him.
Possibly the worst defense in the league at that. I've mentioned numerous times in this thread how his FIP was actually pretty low. His numbers should've been much better with how he pitched last season. Maybe Casey Stern isn't a sabermetric guy.

Hondo
12-18-2010, 05:56 PM
The more I read the Greinke thread on the ORG, the more I think the Reds pull off this deal. I think it will happen.

And I bet it hinges on the Reds unloading Cordero's salary first, then they pull the trigger on Greinke.

On the ORG thread, someone said that Greinke has stated that Cincinnati is the best destination for him. Small market and competitive. Interesting.

Then I wish Walt would trade for him. A Guy who wants to be a part of the Reds future... Winning... Sign me up!

Please Walt... Please! Trade for Greinke...

Hondo
12-18-2010, 06:02 PM
Put me down as a guy who's not willing to trade for Greinke.

Google "greinke anxiety"

I'm not going to trade multiple prospects and sign him to a long term deal if he has some deep anxiety issues. What? Are you sure he won't act up at any point when it's September in a playoff race? Too much at stake to trade for a guy with those kind of issues.

Man, read up on it actually. The guy had always been successful even his first year, then the Royals lost 100 Games and he Lost 17 of them. Buddy Bell left him out against Arizona one start for 4 2/3 Innings and he gave up 15 hits and 11 ER... For a guy who is always used to winning from Tee Ball through High School... Gatoraide High School Pitcher of the Year, then dominating in the minors... He was brought up and 20 and still looked great... then the next year lost 17 Games... Probably depressed him and affected him... resulting in the anxiety disorder...

Have you ever heard of a Team ruining a player for bringing him up too soon in a bad situation? Well that is what happened here in a Classic case of it...

The Guy just wants to Win.

If thats an anxeity. Give me a team full of Anxiety Disorders if their Anxiety is Losing.

vottofan4life
12-18-2010, 09:03 PM
The last time we had a guy with anxiety problems he won an mvp..and i'm pretty sure grienke won the cy young before..jus saying..an anxiety problem is not the end of the world

webbbj
12-18-2010, 09:43 PM
how would greinke's stuff translate to GABP? and what kind of ballpark is KC's? pitcher or hitter friendly or neutral?

FlyerFanatic
12-18-2010, 11:49 PM
reading a rumor that the brewers got grienke

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/fanblogs/112137964.html

Eric the Red
12-18-2010, 11:57 PM
reading a rumor that the brewers got grienke

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/fanblogs/112137964.html

Just seen this as well via Kevin Goldstein's twitter account. Goldstein says he's not sure if its a done deal or not. The package of Cain, Escobar and Jeffress does not seem like a lot as far as prospects go, but does fit Kansas City's reported demand of up the middle help.

I hope this isn't true, Milwaukee has some nice pieces in place and acquiring Grienke would certainly put them in contention in the NL Central.

FlyerFanatic
12-19-2010, 12:02 AM
Just seen this as well via Kevin Goldstein's twitter account. Goldstein says he's not sure if its a done deal or not. The package of Cain, Escobar and Jeffress does not seem like a lot as far as prospects go, but does fit Kansas City's reported demand of up the middle help.

I hope this isn't true, Milwaukee has some nice pieces in place and acquiring Grienke would certainly put them in contention in the NL Central.

yep would make sense, they know they cant keep fielder so they're going for it this year. assuming this is true

urdun
12-19-2010, 01:14 AM
Just seen this as well via Kevin Goldstein's twitter account. Goldstein says he's not sure if its a done deal or not. The package of Cain, Escobar and Jeffress does not seem like a lot as far as prospects go, but does fit Kansas City's reported demand of up the middle help.

I hope this isn't true, Milwaukee has some nice pieces in place and acquiring Grienke would certainly put them in contention in the NL Central.

on the ORG they just reported the royals also get jake odorizzi on top of those 3, pretty stout return for greinke and betancort. not sure how that makes me feel about this deal long term, probably a good thing, not so much in the short term. ok walt now you have to make a move the brew crew just raised the bar.

757690
12-19-2010, 01:24 AM
I see this as a panic, going for it all in 2011 move.

The problem is that the Brewers really don't improve overall that much, even for 2011.

Assume Greinke is a 5 win improvement for them. They give up Cain, who is likely a 3-4 win player, and have no one to replace him. So they probably lose around 2.5 wins by giving him up. And Escobar likely would have been at least a 2 win player, and they have no one to replace him, so that loses them another 1.5 wins at least. So they gain around 1 win. It's an improvement, but not really one that makes that big of a difference.

Plus they really mortgaged their future for this one win. That one win this season cost them 23 years of cheap, good talent. After this trade, they have nothing in the cupboard, and a lot of holes to fill.

Razzle
12-19-2010, 06:03 AM
I see this as a panic, going for it all in 2011 move.

The problem is that the Brewers really don't improve overall that much, even for 2011.

Assume Greinke is a 5 win improvement for them. They give up Cain, who is likely a 3-4 win player, and have no one to replace him. So they probably lose around 2.5 wins by giving him up. And Escobar likely would have been at least a 2 win player, and they have no one to replace him, so that loses them another 1.5 wins at least. So they gain around 1 win. It's an improvement, but not really one that makes that big of a difference.

Plus they really mortgaged their future for this one win. That one win this season cost them 23 years of cheap, good talent. After this trade, they have nothing in the cupboard, and a lot of holes to fill.

I'm not sure how this isn't a huge upgrade for the Brewers. Even with the inclusion of Odorizzi, I don't like this trade for the Royals. It just doesn't seem that there is one impact player in the deal for them and when you are trading a top tier starter you should get at least one impact prospect.

I know Escobar was an impact prospect, but has done nothing at the major league level to show that. He posted a 0.6 WAR last year, so I'm not sure where you think he'll be at least a 2 win player. He's pretty replaceable even by a player as bad as Yuniesky Betancourt, who is rumored to be in the deal. Expecting Lorenzo Cain to be even a 3 win player is incredibly lofty. He's a solid fielding CF'er with limited power potential and mediocre plate discipline. Add in an A-ball pitcher, though a talented one, and a reliever and I'm just not wowed by the deal.

This deal would be bad for the rest of the Central, for sure. Even without Fielder, a top 3 of Greinke/Gallardo/Marcum could lead the Brew Crew to contend in 2012 as well.

lonewolf371
12-19-2010, 10:39 AM
It definitely changes a lot. Unfortunately for Greinke, the Brewers don't have that great of a defense, either.

But this definitely makes the Brewers a contender. It looks like a three-team race for the NL Central next year.

fewfirstchoice
12-19-2010, 12:39 PM
I love the Reds but they will not be in the hunt come september if they dont make a move or 2. They will be bottom feeders.

Hondo
12-19-2010, 12:46 PM
Cy Young Award Winner Available.

WALT DOES NOTHING> DISGUSTING.

Hondo
12-19-2010, 04:31 PM
QUOTE:

But the Royals' people, and scouts who follow the team, won't be the least bit surprised if Greinke becomes a perennial All-Star with a move to the National League and a fresh mindset.

"He's one of the best competitors and smartest pitchers out there," an AL scout said recently. "He fields his position, he holds runners and he can handle the bat. People can say what they want, but once the guy is on the mound, he has the ability to tune everything out. He's going to be the same no matter where he pitches."

QUOTE:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5935920

arkimadee
12-19-2010, 04:43 PM
We didn't get him. We didn't really need him.. Who cares. I'm moving on

lonewolf371
12-19-2010, 04:49 PM
Cy Young Award Winner Available.

WALT DOES NOTHING> DISGUSTING.
That's a little harsh. We have 7 MLB-quality pitchers already, he didn't fit in financially, and the Reds probably didn't want to part with a number of prospects that they may need down the road to sustain their current success. Sometimes not making a move means as much about a GM's knowledge as making one.

Hondo
12-19-2010, 04:51 PM
That's a little harsh. We have 7 MLB-quality pitchers already, he didn't fit in financially, and the Reds probably didn't want to part with a number of prospects that they may need down the road to sustain their current success. Sometimes not making a move means as much about a GM's knowledge as making one.

Only 1 Starter with 1 Season at least of 200+ Innings Pitched...

Razzle
12-19-2010, 07:10 PM
Only 1 Starter with 1 Season at least of 200+ Innings Pitched...

I'm not sure how this helps your argument. As he said you have 7 MLB caliber starters, which helps to offset that you have only one that has gone over 200 innings. If one goes down, you have a few guys who are capable of filling in.

To me this move was made because the Brewers are in win now mode while Fielder is still under control. The Reds, while acquiring Greinke would make them better short term, are not and should not be under the same circumstances. They have several key players who will be cheap and under control for years, thus they don't really have to give up the prospects unless they feel the deal is right. If the Reds can pay Greinke $13 mil, they should be able to afford an upgrade at SS or LF, which would go further to improve the club than adding Greinke would. Just .02 from the perspective of a Cards fan.

Todd Gack
12-20-2010, 12:50 PM
Man, read up on it actually. The guy had always been successful even his first year, then the Royals lost 100 Games and he Lost 17 of them. Buddy Bell left him out against Arizona one start for 4 2/3 Innings and he gave up 15 hits and 11 ER... For a guy who is always used to winning from Tee Ball through High School... Gatoraide High School Pitcher of the Year, then dominating in the minors... He was brought up and 20 and still looked great... then the next year lost 17 Games... Probably depressed him and affected him... resulting in the anxiety disorder...

Have you ever heard of a Team ruining a player for bringing him up too soon in a bad situation? Well that is what happened here in a Classic case of it...

The Guy just wants to Win.

If thats an anxeity. Give me a team full of Anxiety Disorders if their Anxiety is Losing.

Greinke wasn't going to make us World Series contenders. We need another bat, more than anything, to win the World Series next year and years after that.

texasdave
12-20-2010, 01:55 PM
Greinke wasn't going to make us World Series contenders. We need another bat, more than anything, to win the World Series next year and years after that.

I keep hearing statements like this one but would like to hear the reasoning behind it. The Reds led the league in scoring in 2010 and were middle-of-the-pack in pitching. But, curiously, they need another bat more than they need an ace.

OGB
12-20-2010, 02:15 PM
Plus they really mortgaged their future for this one win. That one win this season cost them 23 years of cheap, good talent. After this trade, they have nothing in the cupboard, and a lot of holes to fill.

The Brewers made a similar type move a few years ago acquiring Sabathia. At the time, it gave them a legitimate shot at a championship. In theory, just a couple years removed from that, this trade gives them that chance again.

If they keep drafting well, then there will always be talent in the pipeline. That is the biggest challenge teams like the Reds, Brewers, and Twins face.

Keep in mind they just added a guy with a proven track record (although how impressive it is has been subject to debate around here) and gave up prospects. There are decent odds that none of the players the Royals get ever amount to anything, or if they do, it may be 3-5 years down the line. That is the biggest reason this seems like a good move for the Brewers, IMHO. The Reds dumped a lot of guys in deadline deals over the years. Granted, many of them were with Bowden as GM, but how often did they get a prospect that amounted to anything?
The Brewers gave up Laporta for Sabathia and he will be 26 before the 2011 season starts and last year he hit .221 with 12 homers. I'll take a known commodity over a young kid with potential about 98 times out of 100.

FlyerFanatic
12-20-2010, 02:21 PM
I keep hearing statements like this one but would like to hear the reasoning behind it. The Reds led the league in scoring in 2010 and were middle-of-the-pack in pitching. But, curiously, they need another bat more than they need an ace.

i dont see gomes putting the numbers up he had last year. i was shocked at how well cairo did last year in his role, i mean major props to him for doing what he did when votto was out, but again i dont see him being that good again. i mean we saw what our offense can be in the series versus the phillies. what did the phillies do? oh went out and got cliff lee. i agree with others we need another bat before a pitcher.

texasdave
12-20-2010, 02:37 PM
i dont see gomes putting the numbers up he had last year. i was shocked at how well cairo did last year in his role, i mean major props to him for doing what he did when votto was out, but again i dont see him being that good again. i mean we saw what our offense can be in the series versus the phillies. what did the phillies do? oh went out and got cliff lee. i agree with others we need another bat before a pitcher.


The Phillies had the second best offense in the NL. They lost a huge bat when Werth signed with Washington. What did the Phillies do? They didn't go out and get a bat to replace Werth. They went and got another stud pitcher.

Edit: For the record, Philadelphia bats were pretty much neutralized in the postseason as well. They had a team OPS of .574 against the Reds and .635 against the Giants. By this board's reasoning they should have been out looking for hitters. Yet they got more pitching.

I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out.