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13 in hall
11-30-2010, 05:17 PM
Per MLBTraderumos.com the Cards traded for Ryan Theriot and signed LHP Brian Tallet from Toronto. What you say about this an upgrade yes but not earth shattering but Get a move on Walt!!

Hondo
11-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Per MLBTraderumos.com the Cards traded for Ryan Theriot and signed LHP Brian Tallet from Toronto. What you say about this an upgrade yes but not earth shattering but Get a move on Walt!!

Greinke, BJ Upton, and sign Carl Crawford.

brm7675
11-30-2010, 05:32 PM
So because the Cards made a very basic move Walt needs to react to that? I trust Walt understands his budget structure and his roster and will make a move if and when the right move is there.

Hey Meat
11-30-2010, 11:57 PM
It's still early. He will make some moves this year.

scott91575
12-01-2010, 12:17 AM
Greinke, BJ Upton, and sign Carl Crawford.

add in super models to pleasure me at the game.

We are talking about scenarios that in no way are going to happen, right?

BTW....the riot sucks. The Cards can have him. How many sub .700 OPS guys are the Cards going to have on one team?

DocRed
12-01-2010, 12:24 AM
Good God there goes our shot at the pennant.

NorrisHopper30
12-01-2010, 12:37 AM
The Cardinals might not even finish in second next year at this rate.

MikeThierry
12-01-2010, 01:00 AM
The Cardinals might not even finish in second next year at this rate.

Lets be real, the Cards will always be in contention in this bad division esp. when they have the starting pitching they have.

This move is actually an upgrade to what they have and adds depth to the bench. I like Skip Schumaker but that experiment at 2nd has failed. Besides, this a minor move and I expect the Cards to make more moves towards the winter meetings.

I'm also intrigued by the pick up of that left hander. His splits against left handers is very good and should be a nice replacement for Reyes. Also, him getting out of the AL East will always help pitchers.

Versus left handed batters in the AL East, opponents hit .176 and he had a 4.67 K/BB ratio. His overall ERA isn't that great but knowing how Tony uses his bullpen (maddening at times) he will only face left handed hitters. Plus Dave Duncan always tends to work his magic on mediocre pitchers and turns them into quality guys. Looking more at his numbers, it looks like he was actually mis-used in Toronto. I don't understand why he was allowed to pitch in 242 plate appearances by right handed batters.

Overall the Cards have upgraded. Look for more moves to come.

Vottomatic
12-01-2010, 08:59 AM
Lets be real, the Cards will always be in contention in this bad division esp. when they have the starting pitching they have.

This move is actually an upgrade to what they have and adds depth to the bench. I like Skip Schumaker but that experiment at 2nd has failed. Besides, this a minor move and I expect the Cards to make more moves towards the winter meetings.

I'm also intrigued by the pick up of that left hander. His splits against left handers is very good and should be a nice replacement for Reyes. Also, him getting out of the AL East will always help pitchers.

Versus left handed batters in the AL East, opponents hit .176 and he had a 4.67 K/BB ratio. His overall ERA isn't that great but knowing how Tony uses his bullpen (maddening at times) he will only face left handed hitters. Plus Dave Duncan always tends to work his magic on mediocre pitchers and turns them into quality guys. Looking more at his numbers, it looks like he was actually mis-used in Toronto. I don't understand why he was allowed to pitch in 242 plate appearances by right handed batters.

Overall the Cards have upgraded. Look for more moves to come.

Cards are going down.

Everyone on their team is due to start having injuries. They're done. :D

jwertz
12-01-2010, 09:21 AM
Let's not forget that the Cardinals also signed Westbrook to an extension earlier this off season. Their rotation is crazy good. So far they have got better. We lost Nix, and have yet to sign or replace Cairo. We also have questions in left field, and short. I don't think that these moves are deal breakers, but they are improving their team. Ours if anything has lost a couple pieces. I don't want to be impatient, but to say that I am not concerned would be untrue.

Hondo
12-01-2010, 01:04 PM
add in super models to pleasure me at the game.

We are talking about scenarios that in no way are going to happen, right?

BTW....the riot sucks. The Cards can have him. How many sub .700 OPS guys are the Cards going to have on one team?

You want Super Models to pleasure you at the Games?

:drink:

scott91575
12-01-2010, 03:53 PM
Let's not forget that the Cardinals also signed Westbrook to an extension earlier this off season. Their rotation is crazy good. So far they have got better. We lost Nix, and have yet to sign or replace Cairo. We also have questions in left field, and short. I don't think that these moves are deal breakers, but they are improving their team. Ours if anything has lost a couple pieces. I don't want to be impatient, but to say that I am not concerned would be untrue.

Last time I checked Westbrook was on their team last year when they played awful.

Theriot is a Punch and Judy hitter at best who doesn't even have that good of an OBP. He is essentially a slightly better defensive Schumaker without as much power (when you can't match the power of Schumaker, you might be a woman disguised as a man).

But yeah, the sky is falling. They added another player almost exactly like the one they have. Walt hurry up and trade away the future so the Nancies can feel better about themselves!

scott91575
12-01-2010, 03:54 PM
You want Super Models to pleasure you at the Games?

:drink:

If we are asking for things that will never happen, why not?

bounty37h
12-01-2010, 04:16 PM
You want Super Models to pleasure you at the Games?

:drink:

Now thats a ball game!
And I bet we never hear "we cant spend more until fans come" again :)

scott91575
12-01-2010, 05:14 PM
Now thats a ball game!
And I bet we never hear "we cant spend more until fans come" again :)

Season tickets will go fast

Carolina Red
12-01-2010, 10:28 PM
The bottom line is the Cards can't make a big splash because they have Prince Albert's huge contract looming on the horizen. Most people are saying it is going to take 30 mil a year for 7 years to keep him. They will have a fan revolt if they let him walk. Either way it's good for the Reds.

Vottomatic
12-01-2010, 11:32 PM
The bottom line is the Cards can't make a big splash because they have Prince Albert's huge contract looming on the horizen. Most people are saying it is going to take 30 mil a year for 7 years to keep him. They will have a fan revolt if they let him walk. Either way it's good for the Reds.

And at some point the 'Roids will start breaking down his body and he'll fall apart. Then they'll be stuck with a $200M turkey. Nice. Can't wait.

MikeThierry
12-02-2010, 01:42 AM
Last time I checked Westbrook was on their team last year when they played awful.

Westbrook came over before the trade deadline. As a Cardinal, he went 4-4 with a 3.48 ERA. He was probably the most consistent pitcher the Cardinals had down the stretch. I'll take a guy with a 3.48 ERA as the 4th starter.

MikeThierry
12-02-2010, 01:43 AM
Carolina, the Cardinals also do have money to play with. I'm not concerned with the Cardinals ability to field a competitive team next year.

757690
12-02-2010, 02:55 AM
Carolina, the Cardinals also do have money to play with. I'm not concerned with the Cardinals ability to field a competitive team next year.

I'm worried about the Cards fielding a competitive team in 2011, but then again, I'm worried about the Reds fielding a competitive team in 2011.

scott91575
12-02-2010, 07:17 AM
Westbrook came over before the trade deadline. As a Cardinal, he went 4-4 with a 3.48 ERA. He was probably the most consistent pitcher the Cardinals had down the stretch. I'll take a guy with a 3.48 ERA as the 4th starter.

The point was the Cardinals getting better.

Please post the Cardinals record since he joined the team. Unless he is suiting up every day and actually hitting above 700 OPS (something most of the Cardinals don't do) I don't see that as an improvement.

If anything people should mention Freese being back. Not exactly a superstar, but better than the garbage STL rolled out there after his injury. Might be worth 1 or 2 wins over the putrid 3rd baseman the Cards threw out there.

Girevik
12-02-2010, 09:45 AM
The bottom line is the Cards can't make a big splash because they have Prince Albert's huge contract looming on the horizen. Most people are saying it is going to take 30 mil a year for 7 years to keep him. They will have a fan revolt if they let him walk. Either way it's good for the Reds.

Wow, if that's even CLOSE to true I hope they get Votto locked up before that deal happens!

MikeThierry
12-03-2010, 12:02 AM
The point was the Cardinals getting better.

Please post the Cardinals record since he joined the team. Unless he is suiting up every day and actually hitting above 700 OPS (something most of the Cardinals don't do) I don't see that as an improvement.

If anything people should mention Freese being back. Not exactly a superstar, but better than the garbage STL rolled out there after his injury. Might be worth 1 or 2 wins over the putrid 3rd baseman the Cards threw out there.

The Cardinals are one of the few teams in baseball going into the winter meetings with their rotation and bullpen already set in place. That in of itself is good considering that most teams are clambering for starting pitching and relief help. They shut down Wainwright and Garcia towards the end of the year so talking about what happened last year towards the end is pointless. This is especially true considering that the Cards played some rookies in the last month that normally wouldn't get time if the Cards weren't out of it.

It looks like they are set to move Ryan and get more solid infielders. If they can get a stable 2nd baseman and use Schumaker off the bench as a super utility guy, the team looks more solid than last years team. You are right. Freese coming back is huge and I'm liking the direction the team is going. I'm also intrigued on the Jon Jay/Allen Craig combo in right field. Both had an OPS over .700 and Jay looks like the kind of player that can consistently get on base.

On a whole, I think giving Ryan and Schumaker limited time will help out the team.

MikeThierry
12-03-2010, 12:05 AM
Also, the thing with Theriot is that last year he had a down year but if you look at his previous years, they have been good. I think the reason why he may have had a down year is because he was moved around after Castro was called up and he struggled after that. Getting back to his natural position should allow him to be a more consistent hitter.

scott91575
12-03-2010, 02:10 AM
The Cardinals are one of the few teams in baseball going into the winter meetings with their rotation and bullpen already set in place. That in of itself is good considering that most teams are clambering for starting pitching and relief help. They shut down Wainwright and Garcia towards the end of the year so talking about what happened last year towards the end is pointless. This is especially true considering that the Cards played some rookies in the last month that normally wouldn't get time if the Cards weren't out of it.

It looks like they are set to move Ryan and get more solid infielders. If they can get a stable 2nd baseman and use Schumaker off the bench as a super utility guy, the team looks more solid than last years team. You are right. Freese coming back is huge and I'm liking the direction the team is going. I'm also intrigued on the Jon Jay/Allen Craig combo in right field. Both had an OPS over .700 and Jay looks like the kind of player that can consistently get on base.

On a whole, I think giving Ryan and Schumaker limited time will help out the team.

They shut all those guys down and gave up when they made the trade for Westbrook? Seriously, pick any span you like from when they got him to where the Cards were actually trying to play according to you.


Also, the thing with Theriot is that last year he had a down year but if you look at his previous years, they have been good. I think the reason why he may have had a down year is because he was moved around after Castro was called up and he struggled after that. Getting back to his natural position should allow him to be a more consistent hitter.

His career OPS is .704. His best full year is .745. On top of that, he is on the wrong side of 30. Of course you thought Pedro Feliz was a good pickup, so I don't know why I bother when you think the worst starting player in MLB (close to the worst player period) is a good pickup. The guy had a 482 OPS with the Cards. 482!!!!!

Razzle
12-03-2010, 03:14 AM
Mozeliak managed to make what was a horrible middle infield worse. I love that they are targeting a replacement for Ryan when the biggest problem with the middle infield is Schumaker. At best, we get a slight upgrade at shortstop for a $2-3 mil bump in payroll. That's a terrible allocation of funds when we need help at 2B and RF as well. With each move he makes, I like Mozeliak less.

mckbearcat48
12-04-2010, 12:46 AM
They're trying to see if the Tony LaRussa official Turd Polisher works again I see....

MikeThierry
12-04-2010, 02:00 AM
They shut all those guys down and gave up when they made the trade for Westbrook? Seriously, pick any span you like from when they got him to where the Cards were actually trying to play according to you.

Westbrook was a serious upgrade over the Suppan/Hawksworth's of the world they were throwing out there on a daily basis. The fact that the Cards have a set rotation with Westbrook going into 2011 is already a huge factor. They don't have to look for some bargain basement reclamation project (Dave Duncan special) or move Kyle McClellan from the pen to the rotation. That in of itself is good because Kyle Mac is an excellent arm in the bullpen.


His career OPS is .704. His best full year is .745. On top of that, he is on the wrong side of 30. Of course you thought Pedro Feliz was a good pickup, so I don't know why I bother when you think the worst starting player in MLB (close to the worst player period) is a good pickup. The guy had a 482 OPS with the Cards. 482!!!!!


Compared to what Lopez was bringing to the table he was an upgrade. I was never going to say Feliz was a world beater at the plate but he was a huge defensive upgrade to what the Cards had at 3rd. At the time, he was the only 3rd baseman the Cards could have realistically acquired on the market. Lopez was not giving us a bat or defense. At least with Felize we were able to get good defense, which was important considering the Cardinals induced the most ground balls in the majors. Was I cheering up and down over the trade, absolutely not. However I thought it gave us a better chance to win than having Lopez play third, which he seemed to give up an un-earned run almost every night (exaggeration but you get the point) and had some of the worst range I have ever seen in a 3rd baseman. It should also be factored that Lopez was not exactly the best teammate in the world and had some bad clubhouse habits (IE being late for games, etc). Feliz was a good clubhouse guy. He was a clear upgrade as far as chemistry is concerned.

Look, I'll take Theriot's career OPS of .704 over what they have now. Am I saying this is the move that the put the Cardinals over the top? No. Look for more moves to come.

MikeThierry
12-04-2010, 02:02 AM
Razzle, it looks like they are trying to get another middle infielder. This would tell me that Skip would be a role play guy rather than an every day 2nd baseman. I would not be surprised to see Ryan traded by the end of the winter meetings.

Razzle
12-04-2010, 03:17 AM
Razzle, it looks like they are trying to get another middle infielder. This would tell me that Skip would be a role play guy rather than an every day 2nd baseman. I would not be surprised to see Ryan traded by the end of the winter meetings.

To me, the issue is more that they are replacing a cheap guy (Ryan) with a guy who costs a couple million more and both will produce pretty evenly (Ryan with better defense, Theriot better offense) When you aren't strong at 2B/3B/RF (and still not strong at SS) and you are looking to lock up your franchise player you really can't afford what is, at best, a marginal upgrade at SS for a couple million. Unfortunately, I think this comes down to Ryan being a guy that LaRussa doesn't particularly care for, so Mozeliak went out and got a replacement for him. I just hope Rasmus isn't the next one out the door and replaced with some scrappy hustletastic guy that LaRussa would love like Mark Kotsay.

scott91575
12-04-2010, 04:27 AM
Westbrook was a serious upgrade over the Suppan/Hawksworth's of the world they were throwing out there on a daily basis. The fact that the Cards have a set rotation with Westbrook going into 2011 is already a huge factor. They don't have to look for some bargain basement reclamation project (Dave Duncan special) or move Kyle McClellan from the pen to the rotation. That in of itself is good because Kyle Mac is an excellent arm in the bullpen.

Feel like answering my question at any point, or are you going to continue to deflect?



Compared to what Lopez was bringing to the table he was an upgrade. I was never going to say Feliz was a world beater at the plate but he was a huge defensive upgrade to what the Cards had at 3rd. At the time, he was the only 3rd baseman the Cards could have realistically acquired on the market. Lopez was not giving us a bat or defense. At least with Felize we were able to get good defense, which was important considering the Cardinals induced the most ground balls in the majors. Was I cheering up and down over the trade, absolutely not. However I thought it gave us a better chance to win than having Lopez play third, which he seemed to give up an un-earned run almost every night (exaggeration but you get the point) and had some of the worst range I have ever seen in a 3rd baseman. It should also be factored that Lopez was not exactly the best teammate in the world and had some bad clubhouse habits (IE being late for games, etc). Feliz was a good clubhouse guy. He was a clear upgrade as far as chemistry is concerned.

I am sorry, but you are nuts. There is not enough defense and clubhouse chemistry in the world for under 500 OPS. Plus, I am not necessarily comparing him to Lopez. Lopez had to go. Yet you could get anyone off the scrapheap in AAA to put up better numbers than Feliz. His WAR was -2.1. -2.1 !!!! How do you get a WAR that bad? He is one of the worst major league players, and by far the worst starter. Someone, somewhere could have given the Cards a 0 WAR player for next to nothing.


Look, I'll take Theriot's career OPS of .704 over what they have now. Am I saying this is the move that the put the Cardinals over the top? No. Look for more moves to come.

I don't see how he is any different than Schumaker (and he is worse than Ryan). Sorry, but he is in the same ballpark as far as adding wins (which is essentially 0). Cards treaded water with this deal. At best, it is worth about 1/2 a win.

MikeThierry
12-04-2010, 05:10 AM
I'm not trying to deflect your question, it is just a complicated answer because some of the guys faltered down the stretch so Westbrook's added value is difficult to measure. Carpenter and Wainwright both did not pitch well down the stretch. Some guys were shut down. Wainwright certainly lost the Cy Young because of what he failed to do down the stretch. My main point in my original statement is that certainly the Cardinals with a 4th starter in Westbrook is a much improved team than having a 4th starter with Suppan/Hawksworth going into the 2011 season.


I understand your point about Feliz. It is valid. However there weren't a whole lot of options. The Cardinals 3rd base situation was bad because the year before, they traded their third baseman in the minors (Wallace) for Holliday and Freese was injured. That position within the organization is one of weakness once you get past Freese. As far as the market is concerned, many of the guys the Cardinals could have got would have cost the Cardinals prospects, something in which they were in desperate need of to begin with after the previous years trade. The Cards were in a between a rock and a hard place at that point in the season and they just needed a quick fix at that position. Again, I agree with you, Feliz is not a good player but at least he gave them defense, which they absolutely needed.


I don't see how he is any different than Schumaker (and he is worse than Ryan). Sorry, but he is in the same ballpark as far as adding wins (which is essentially 0). Cards treaded water with this deal. At best, it is worth about 1/2 a win.

This was more of a depth move and move to set up a trade of Ryan for another Shortstop/middle infielder. Ryan has great defense, one of the best in the game, but once you get to him in the lineup, he gives away at bats. The Cardinals last year were in a situation where they were giving up at least 3 at bats in the lineup every night. Theriot at least gives them a player that can get tough at bats and have decent defense. Furthermore, he is a speedy player which is something the Cards desperately need. Also, maybe the Cardinals feel that Theriot can get back to his 08 numbers. He is just a year removed from his .712 OPS year. It also must be noted that he will probably hit in front of Pujols. Hitting in front of Pujols is advantageous because that player will see more quality pitches.

I also believe that part of this was due to the Uribe deal that kind of set the market for middle infielders. I guess the Cards felt they should act on this before the free agent market gets really crazy.

scott91575
12-04-2010, 05:34 AM
I'm not trying to deflect your question, it is just a complicated answer because some of the guys faltered down the stretch so Westbrook's added value is difficult to measure. Carpenter and Wainwright both did not pitch well down the stretch. Some guys were shut down. Wainwright certainly lost the Cy Young because of what he failed to do down the stretch. My main point in my original statement is that certainly the Cardinals with a 4th starter in Westbrook is a much improved team than having a 4th starter with Suppan/Hawksworth going into the 2011 season.

and my point being the Cards are the same as they were at the middle to end of last year. You are assuming Carpenter and Wainwright are the same as the 1st half of the year. Carpenter will be 36 to start next season. The cliff is nearing. Wainwright still had a good 2nd half, and closer to his usual numbers. My point is the Cards are still the team that played around .500 ball for the majority of the year. Is Garcia going to be able to duplicate a great year? I don't see that getting much better unless he is the next Cy Young. Jay fell off big time in the second half, and that was because in the first half his BABIP was through the roof (.434). Do not look for him to duplicate anything near his first half, and even in his second half he was above league average BABIP. I don't see Albert or Holliday having much better numbers. Rasmus was not happy, and again had a really high BABIP. Freese will be a plus, and I can see Molina putting up better numbers (although how much is fatigue related?). Yet the Cards are closer to the team you saw from mid May to the end of the year than the first 6 weeks of the year.



I understand your point about Feliz. It is valid. However there weren't a whole lot of options. The Cardinals 3rd base situation was bad because the year before, they traded their third baseman in the minors (Wallace) for Holliday and Freese was injured. That position within the organization is one of weakness once you get past Freese. As far as the market is concerned, many of the guys the Cardinals could have got would have cost the Cardinals prospects, something in which they were in desperate need of to begin with after the previous years trade. The Cards were in a between a rock and a hard place at that point in the season and they just needed a quick fix at that position. Again, I agree with you, Feliz is not a good player but at least he gave them defense, which they absolutely needed.



This was more of a depth move and move to set up a trade of Ryan for another Shortstop/middle infielder. Ryan has great defense, one of the best in the game, but once you get to him in the lineup, he gives away at bats. The Cardinals last year were in a situation where they were giving up at least 3 at bats in the lineup every night. Theriot at least gives them a player that can get tough at bats and have decent defense. Furthermore, he is a speedy player which is something the Cards desperately need. Also, maybe the Cardinals feel that Theriot can get back to his 08 numbers. He is just a year removed from his .712 OPS year. It also must be noted that he will probably hit in front of Pujols. Hitting in front of Pujols is advantageous because that player will see more quality pitches.

I also believe that part of this was due to the Uribe deal that kind of set the market for middle infielders. I guess the Cards felt they should act on this before the free agent market gets really crazy.

Depth is great, but in the end there are so many at bats to be had. Most of the at bats that Theriot will see will be taken away from Schumaker or Ryan. It's a wash. Sure, there will be some Aaron Miles at bats in there. Yet that is only a handful compared to the rest, and Theriot simply doesn't provide that much to make much of a difference in those few at bats. in the end, we disagree wildly on Theriot. He does not give tough at bats. He is not that good OBP, has no power (1 of the worst in baseball), and his defense is serviceable. His stolen base rate is also below 70%, so that is really not much of a plus (that is pretty much the cutoff for adding to the team vs. detracting from it). Sorry, doesn't get on base at an above average rate, horrid power, average defense, and average steal rate is not a good player nor any better than Schumaker and especially Ryan (who at least has stellar defense at one of the most important positions).

I could be wrong, and guys will have great years or a rookie/young player has a breakout year. Yet right now, using all the info I can gather, the Cards are very similar to last year. The team was a little unlucky, so that could be a few more wins. Yet for the most part, right now, I see a very similar team that we saw for most of last year.

MikeThierry
12-04-2010, 07:02 PM
I look for Carpenter to put up around the same numbers as he did this year and Waino keeps improving. Wainwright is still 28 so he is still young and surprisingly has some more upside to him. What I mean by that is he is working on a changeup that Lincecum taught him during the all star game. He used it in certain instances last year but if he can add that pitch to his stellar tools, he could even be better. I think the issue with Jay/Craig is why the Cardinals got Berkman. That adds depth to the ballclub and we won't have to hope that Jay can produce what he did in his first month. Garcia is a question mark so you are right there but you do have to remember that he was coming off of Tommy John's surgery the year before so he will probably be a bit stronger going into this year.

The thing is, either Ryan or Skip will be moved, so Theriot will look to be in the lineup on a daily basis. I fear its going to be Ryan. I wish it was skip because as you pointed out, Ryan is great defensively. However, Ryan's antics have become stale and it would probably be best for him to just move on and get a fresh start.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I prefer a lineup like this:

Theriot
Berkman
Pujols
Holiday
Rasmus
Freese
Yadi
skip/ryan

Rather than this:

Skip
Jay
Pujols
Holliday
Rasmus
Feliz/Lopez
Yadi
Ryan

The first lineup just looks more potent than the second. Would you agree on that?

757690
12-04-2010, 07:23 PM
I look for Carpenter to put up around the same numbers as he did this year and Waino keeps improving. Wainwright is still 28 so he is still young and surprisingly has some more upside to him. What I mean by that is he is working on a changeup that Lincecum taught him during the all star game. He used it in certain instances last year but if he can add that pitch to his stellar tools, he could even be better. I think the issue with Jay/Craig is why the Cardinals got Berkman. That adds depth to the ballclub and we won't have to hope that Jay can produce what he did in his first month. Garcia is a question mark so you are right there but you do have to remember that he was coming off of Tommy John's surgery the year before so he will probably be a bit stronger going into this year.

The thing is, either Ryan or Skip will be moved, so Theriot will look to be in the lineup on a daily basis. I fear its going to be Ryan. I wish it was skip because as you pointed out, Ryan is great defensively. However, Ryan's antics have become stale and it would probably be best for him to just move on and get a fresh start.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I prefer a lineup like this:

Theriot
Berkman
Pujols
Holiday
Rasmus
Freese
Yadi
skip/ryan

Rather than this:

Skip
Jay
Pujols
Holliday
Rasmus
Feliz/Lopez
Yadi
Ryan

The first lineup just looks more potent than the second. Would you agree on that?

A lineup with Dunn, Vlad, Ortiz and Thome would be better too. But that's only half the game.

The Cards seem to be moving away from the core belief that pitching and defense wins championships.

MikeThierry
12-04-2010, 07:29 PM
Well going by last years lineup of having Skip playing 2nd and Lopez playing 3rd, I would say that they upgraded defensively even with adding Berkman. I don't see Skip being an every day player next year and there are rumors that the Cards are trying to get Orlando Hudson.

Hondo
12-04-2010, 07:33 PM
Well going by last years lineup of having Skip playing 2nd and Lopez playing 3rd, I would say that they upgraded defensively even with adding Berkman. I don't see Skip being an every day player next year and there are rumors that the Cards are trying to get Orlando Hudson.

It doesnt matter, once they sign Pujols to 30 Million a year and have Holliday and Pujols pulling in over $50 Million between them...

They wont be competetive for a Decade.