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View Full Version : Ryan Theriot to the Cards



Cedric
11-30-2010, 07:29 PM
And is their starting SS according to their GM.

I love that Mozeliak is their GM. Just absolutely love it.

Edit- Traded for Blake Hawksworth. Sadly we don't get to beat up on Hawksworth anymore.

Matt700wlw
11-30-2010, 07:30 PM
Ryan the Riot...former Midland Redskin

Cedric
11-30-2010, 07:39 PM
I'm replying to my own thread because I'm shocked here. Theriot was about to be non tendered and I can't see any value here. He can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense. Brendan Ryan with his defense alone is better and cheaper than Theriot.

I love it!

Brutus
11-30-2010, 07:41 PM
I'm replying to my own thread because I'm shocked here. Theriot was about to be non tendered and I can't see any value here. He can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense. Brendan Ryan with his defense alone is better and cheaper than Theriot.

I love it!

Based on last season, this doesn't help them much. But if Theriot bounces back closer to 2008 and 2009, this is a slight upgrade. Losing Hawksworth was addition by subtraction lol

Joseph
11-30-2010, 07:43 PM
Does this take them out of the Bartlett sweepstakes then?

Captain Hook
11-30-2010, 07:46 PM
I'm replying to my own thread because I'm shocked here. Theriot was about to be non tendered and I can't see any value here. He can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense. Brendan Ryan with his defense alone is better and cheaper than Theriot.

I love it!

For some reason what your saying seems very familiar. Hmmmmm....a guy that can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense not equaling the value of a guy that's only good with the glove.I'll figure it out eventually.

CarolinaRedleg
11-30-2010, 07:46 PM
And even better, he's due an arb raise I believe.

Strikes Out Looking
11-30-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm replying to my own thread because I'm shocked here. Theriot was about to be non tendered and I can't see any value here. He can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense. Brendan Ryan with his defense alone is better and cheaper than Theriot.

I love it!

Maybe their batting coach has magic beans that can fix him.

redsmetz
11-30-2010, 09:10 PM
There's something appropriate about this trade. It was sort of presaged on Opening Day. Am I remembering correctly that there was a glitch in the screen at that game and initially the Cardinals line up showed All Ryan Theriot in every line up slot. Does anyone else remember that?

Joseph
11-30-2010, 09:21 PM
For some reason what your saying seems very familiar. Hmmmmm....a guy that can't hit, doesn't walk, and stinks at defense not equaling the value of a guy that's only good with the glove.I'll figure it out eventually.

Let's hope they don't win the division as a result.

oneupper
11-30-2010, 11:48 PM
Why is it that I have the impression that Theriot used to kill the REDs?
Or was that Fontenot?

Can't get my Cubs straight.

mth123
12-01-2010, 06:24 AM
I think Theriot will help the Cardinals. The problem is the better combo would be Theriot at 2B and Ryan at SS. Shumaker is the weakest link on that team IMO. Ryan plays good defense with little offense. Not exactly sure what Schumaker does. Theriot would be a bigger upgrade at 2B than at SS (especially defensively). but he's one of the two best MI on that roster at this point.

Schumaker is more of the lefty hitting 5th OF type but I don't like what I've seen of him defensively at 2B.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 08:29 AM
I'm replying to my own thread because I'm shocked here. Theriot was about to be non tendered and I can't see any value here.

Why are you shocked? The Cards really didn't give up any "value" for Theriot... they gave up Blake Hawksworth. The only thing that concerns me is his price tag. Although, his offense is better than Brendan Ryan's.

Chip R
12-01-2010, 09:23 AM
Why is it that I have the impression that Theriot used to kill the REDs?
Or was that Fontenot?



Both, IIRC.

camisadelgolf
12-01-2010, 10:05 AM
Why are you shocked? The Cards really didn't give up any "value" for Theriot... they gave up Blake Hawksworth. The only thing that concerns me is his price tag. Although, his offense is better than Brendan Ryan's.
BA/OBP/SLG/OPS
.310/.358/.408/.767 Ryan Theriot
.268/.368/.439/.807 Mike Fontenot

kaldaniels
12-01-2010, 10:17 AM
Why is it that I have the impression that Theriot used to kill the REDs?
Or was that Fontenot?

Can't get my Cubs straight.

Throw Murton into that mix as well. :D Right :confused:

redsfan30
12-01-2010, 10:17 AM
There's something appropriate about this trade. It was sort of presaged on Opening Day. Am I remembering correctly that there was a glitch in the screen at that game and initially the Cardinals line up showed All Ryan Theriot in every line up slot. Does anyone else remember that?

Now that you mention it, yes that does sound familiar.

Cedric
12-01-2010, 01:58 PM
Why are you shocked? The Cards really didn't give up any "value" for Theriot... they gave up Blake Hawksworth. The only thing that concerns me is his price tag. Although, his offense is better than Brendan Ryan's.

It's a horrible trade in every way. The Cardinals just paid money to play a worse player who is trending into god awful territory.
That's about as succinct as I can put it.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 02:14 PM
It's a horrible trade in every way. The Cardinals just paid money to play a worse player who is trending into god awful territory.
That's about as succinct as I can put it.

The guy has been on some fairly weak offensive clubs and has scored 70+ runs in each of the past 5 seasons, .280+ career hitter with a career OBP% of .350 plus plays a solid MIF position. Where all this stuff about him being a bad player comes from I'll never know.

camisadelgolf
12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
If he plays everyday and produces like he did in 2010, he'll hurt the Cards more than he'll help them. But as a utility player or capable second baseman who can get on base, he's not a bad addition to any team.

Patrick Bateman
12-01-2010, 02:27 PM
The guy has been on some fairly weak offensive clubs and has scored 70+ runs in each of the past 5 seasons, .280+ career hitter with a career OBP% of .350 plus plays a solid MIF position. Where all this stuff about him being a bad player comes from I'll never know.

His WAR of 0 last year might have something to do with it.

But if he rebounds to his prior years then it will be a good contract.

Cedric
12-01-2010, 03:08 PM
The guy has been on some fairly weak offensive clubs and has scored 70+ runs in each of the past 5 seasons, .280+ career hitter with a career OBP% of .350 plus plays a solid MIF position. Where all this stuff about him being a bad player comes from I'll never know.

Have you peeked at his WAR the last two years? That might be where "this stuff comes from".

The guy is 30 with declining defense and a major declining bat. The Cardinals have already stated that he will be their starting SS next year. That's great news for the Reds.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 05:46 PM
Have you peeked at his WAR the last two years? That might be where "this stuff comes from".

The guy is 30 with declining defense and a major declining bat. The Cardinals have already stated that he will be their starting SS next year. That's great news for the Reds.

2 years? So because he performed below his (to date) career year in '09 it's a decline? Clearly he isn't a world beater or a SS but to say he is a worse player than Brendan Ryan is a bit over the top and to say he is trending anywhere is at best premature. I think it's alot more likely he is more a .700-.725 OPS bat and had 1/3 of a season (as a Dodger) playing sub par. If you play this guy at 2B and hit him ahead of Albert Pujols he'll likely be a positive. I know that the Cards have insinuated he will play SS but I will believe that when I see it. They were looking for a 2B and a SS coming into the offseason afterall. Bottom line he may not be ideal for them but he's not likely to be a negative.

westofyou
12-01-2010, 05:48 PM
Ha... he was a likely non tender and they just gave up an asset for him, reeks of the Reds PU of Russ Ortiz when the rest of the league was waiting for him to hit the market for free.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 07:27 PM
They were looking for a 2B and a SS coming into the offseason afterall. Bottom line he may not be ideal for them but he's not likely to be a negative.

It sounds like Brendan Ryan may be gone soon, so Theriot would be the SS unless another move is made. I'm not a huge fan of Theriot, but I do believe he is a better hitter than Brendan.

I think the Cards are still looking for an infielder to play SS or 2B, and that would determine who the starting SS and 2B is at the beginning of the season. I don't think Brendan Ryan will be a Cardinal for much longer though. It sounds like too many people want him gone.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 07:29 PM
Ha... he was a likely non tender and they just gave up an asset for him, reeks of the Reds PU of Russ Ortiz when the rest of the league was waiting for him to hit the market for free.

The problem with having Hawksworth in your rotation is that he is usually a bigger asset to the other team.

PuffyPig
12-01-2010, 07:37 PM
If you play this guy at 2B and hit him ahead of Albert Pujols he'll likely be a positive.

I hope you are right.

Let's load up the low OBA hitters so Pujols comes up in the first inning every game with no one on base.

PuffyPig
12-01-2010, 07:39 PM
The problem with having Hawksworth in your rotation is that he is usually a bigger asset to the other team.

After your top 5 starters, Hawksworth is as good (or bad) as the next bunch of scrubs in line.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 07:48 PM
I hope you are right.

Let's load up the low OBA hitters so Pujols comes up in the first inning every game with no one on base.

.350 OBP% is low? Wish we had one ahead of Votto.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 07:51 PM
After your top 5 starters, Hawksworth is as good (or bad) as the next bunch of scrubs in line.

Hawksworth isn't any better than McClellan or Boggs. I'd prefer both of them start over Hawksworth. McClellan almost won a spot in the rotation last year, but Garcia surprised everybody in Spring Training. It wasn't because McClellan was bad, Garcia was just better.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 07:54 PM
Hawksworth isn't any better than McClellan or Boggs. I'd prefer both of them start over Hawksworth. McClellan almost won a spot in the rotation last year, but Garcia surprised everybody in Spring Training. It wasn't because McClellan was bad, Garcia was just better.

Oh, and I'm not trying to say that I want either of them to be full time starters. Anyone after the top 5 are scrubs... except for McClellan. I doubt he would be put back into the rotation though.

Cedric
12-01-2010, 07:56 PM
.350 OBP% is low? Wish we had one ahead of Votto.

The guy has exactly one year over .350 in his career. It was a fluke .387 in 2008 that has drastically inflated his career OBP. His babip that year was astronomical.

Other than that year we have OBP's of .326, .323. and .343. I don't see any reason to expect a sudden jump at 31.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 08:05 PM
The guy has exactly one year over .350 in his career. It was a fluke .387 in 2008 that has drastically inflated his career OBP. His babip that year was astronomical.

Other than that year we have OBP's of .326, .323. and .343. I don't see any reason to expect a sudden jump at 31.

.343 is also better than anyone we used up top last year, .326 and .323 are right in line with Reds top of the lineup guys. So at his worst he gets on base as well as Brandon and whoever else. Sure they have other positives he doesn't but he isn't a terrible player I wish we'd quit acting like this is a good thing for us that St. Louis acquired him, it's not. I know one thing for certain he's been a pain in our backside ever since he was in the division, .310, .358, .408.

Cedric
12-01-2010, 08:08 PM
.343 is also better than anyone we used up top last year, .326 and .323 are right in line with Reds top of the lineup guys. So at his worst he gets on base as well as Brandon and whoever else. Sure they have other positives he doesn't but he isn't a terrible player I wish we'd quit acting like this is a good thing for us that St. Louis acquired him, it's not. I know one thing for certain he's been a pain in our backside ever since he was in the division, .310, .358, .408.

I'm not acting. I see it as a great thing for the Reds. The Cardinals have a better player in Brendan Ryan. They replaced him with a more expensive player who is already out of his "prime".

Marginal hitters rarely bounce back at the age of 31. I'm suspecting Theriot is terrible again this season. And make no mistake he was HORRIBLE last year.

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 08:40 PM
I'm not acting. I see it as a great thing for the Reds. The Cardinals have a better player in Brendan Ryan. They replaced him with a more expensive player who is already out of his "prime".

Marginal hitters rarely bounce back at the age of 31. I'm suspecting Theriot is terrible again this season. And make no mistake he was HORRIBLE last year.

I might be inclined to agree about bouncing back if I was convinced he was on the decline but all I see is a poor couple of months in the spacious confines of Dodger Stadium and the NL West. For a guy short on pop that was to be expected, likewise in the NL Central he can get a little boost to his pop. We'll just have to agree to disagree on who is worse between the 2 and whether he will hurt or help the Cards.

Patrick Bateman
12-01-2010, 08:41 PM
The Cards were working to upgrade their middle infield this year. Therior might be an upgrade over Ryan, that is porbably debateable.

This is about as marginal of an upgrade candidate as they could get. Guys like Hardy and Bartlett would be far more interesting considering their fielding, and potential hitting upgrade. This is about as bad as they could have done in upgrading the position. Very much a Ramon Ortiz situation as WOY noted. Nobody wanted him and he's not super cheap.

Hard not to be happy with the deal as a Reds fan.

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 09:20 PM
This is about as marginal of an upgrade candidate as they could get. Guys like Hardy and Bartlett would be far more interesting considering their fielding, and potential hitting upgrade. This is about as bad as they could have done in upgrading the position. Very much a Ramon Ortiz situation as WOY noted. Nobody wanted him and he's not super cheap.

Hard not to be happy with the deal as a Reds fan.

Who said the Cardinals weren't going to still try and get Bartlett or Hardy?

Mario-Rijo
12-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Who said the Cardinals weren't going to still try and get Bartlett or Hardy?

See I believe they will, probably Bartlett. Hardy is a swing and miss type so I think the Cards would much rather have the contact oriented Bartlett. Bartlett, Theriot is a solid though not spectacular top of the order. These guys might not set the world on fire but they will battle and make your pitchers run up their pitch counts and still get on base at a reasonable clip and neither really costs a whole lot. Also both can field & run pretty well, Bartlett being better at both.

This whole fan attraction to guys with holes in their bats because they have some power on occasion doesn't lend itself to consistency as a team when you have quite a few of them. One thing I do like about Dusty is he isn't a big fan of this.

traderumor
12-01-2010, 09:45 PM
Who said the Cardinals weren't going to still try and get Bartlett or Hardy?I can think of 35 million reasons :)

I(heart)Freel
12-01-2010, 09:55 PM
Who said the Cardinals weren't going to still try and get Bartlett or Hardy?

Couple of Bartlett trade notes to keep in mind, according to MLB Trade Rumors:


The Rays appear to be looking for bullpen help in any trade involving Bartlett.

He earned $4MM in 2010 and will likely earn over $5MM through arbitration in 2011.


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rays-moving-closer-to-trading-bartlett-1.html


Are the Cards in a position to add the payroll and subtract the bullpen arm?

MattyHo4Life
12-01-2010, 10:01 PM
Couple of Bartlett trade notes to keep in mind, according to MLB Trade Rumors:


The Rays appear to be looking for bullpen help in any trade involving Bartlett.

He earned $4MM in 2010 and will likely earn over $5MM through arbitration in 2011.


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rays-moving-closer-to-trading-bartlett-1.html


Are the Cards in a position to add the payroll and subtract the bullpen arm?

Really the only thing that the Cardinals have a surplus of is relievers. As far as money goes....who knows. Of course, you can never have enough relievers.

Griffey012
12-01-2010, 10:19 PM
The Cards were working to upgrade their middle infield this year. Therior might be an upgrade over Ryan, that is porbably debateable.

This is about as marginal of an upgrade candidate as they could get. Guys like Hardy and Bartlett would be far more interesting considering their fielding, and potential hitting upgrade. This is about as bad as they could have done in upgrading the position. Very much a Ramon Ortiz situation as WOY noted. Nobody wanted him and he's not super cheap.

Hard not to be happy with the deal as a Reds fan.

IMO Bartlett is in the same territory as Theriot. Nearly identical career OBP's, Bartlett has a bit higher SLG. Though Bartlett's defense is trending way worse than Theriot's. Also, Bartlett had 1 good season fueled by a ridiculously high BABIP much like Theriot. Basically Theriot and Bartlett are the same kind of player, except the Cards paid less for Theriot and it took them an asset less valuable than Sam LeCure to acquire him.

I actually see Theriot as being the more interesting acquisition since he costs less money wise and trade wise.

I(heart)Freel
12-01-2010, 10:40 PM
Really the only thing that the Cardinals have a surplus of is relievers. As far as money goes....who knows. Of course, you can never have enough relievers.

I hadn't looked at the Cards payroll situation recently. Your post sent me to Cot's.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t_WBl5PYQPvrO7eNWGf0Vqg&output=html

They amazingly have $89 million committed to 11 players for 2011, plus have 4 guys eligible for arbitration. Although, one of those signed players is last year's first draft pick Zach Cox. I'm guessing he doesn't sniff the majors, so we'll say $88 mill for 10 players.

Last year's payroll was $94 mill. In 2008, it got up to $99 mill.

Unless they move some contracts, they could be looking at a $100 mill payroll. Theriot alone should net $3+ in second-year arbitration and all the league minimum guys will add up to $4 or so.

Interesting decisions ahead for Redbird nation.