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RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2010, 05:17 PM
Per everyone on twitter

Ron Madden
12-04-2010, 05:20 PM
What position is he gonna try to play?

Joseph
12-04-2010, 05:20 PM
OF I guess.

westofyou
12-04-2010, 05:21 PM
What position is he gonna try to play?
He'll play LF against RH, Holiday will play RF

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_6edab935-4eaa-5298-b62f-c5cb86976ec4.html



The Cardinals are open to shifting Matt Holliday from left field to right. The fact that the Cardinals entertained Berkman as a possibility suggests that the right-field platoon is anything but set.

Ron Madden
12-04-2010, 05:21 PM
OF I guess.


:bowrofl:

RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2010, 05:21 PM
OF/1B

WMR
12-04-2010, 05:25 PM
OF/1B

Hope he plays lots of 1b versus the Reds.

corkedbat
12-04-2010, 05:26 PM
OF I guess.

The Cards won't stand pat in the wake of losing the divison crown to the Reds. Not usre they can put the pieces they need, but they'll try. Up until the reports that his recovery was way behind, I expected them to add Brandon Webb too.

Signing Berkman doesn't have me quaking inmy boots, but I'd still like to see Walt acquire a solid piece or two.

Wonder if they may be considering Pujols back to 3B with Berkman @ 1B? I guess it could be Berkman to LF with Holiday to RF or maybe the just want LB's bat off the bench.

Ron Madden
12-04-2010, 05:40 PM
Berkman hasn't played in the outfield since 2007 he wasn't a very good outfielder then.

WMR
12-04-2010, 05:44 PM
Maybe Pujols and Austin Kearns can work on their third base skills together this off-season. :D

Plus Plus
12-04-2010, 05:46 PM
Per twitter, the contract is worth $8mil

TheNext44
12-04-2010, 05:50 PM
The Cards are missing Jocketty more and more as time goes by.

Oxilon
12-04-2010, 05:52 PM
It's going to be Berkman in LF, Holiday in RF, and Rasmus in CF. And you know it's only a matter of time before LaRussa takes out Rasmus and puts Jay in CF. That's a really bad defensive outfield...

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 05:53 PM
The Cards are missing Jocketty more and more as time goes by.

Why? So he could trade Garcia to the A's for an injured southpaw?

WMR
12-04-2010, 05:53 PM
Why? So he could trade Garcia to the A's for an injured southpaw?

Yeah, THAT'S the way to remember WJ's tenure in St. Louis.

SMH.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 05:55 PM
Per twitter, the contract is worth $8mil

Yikes!

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 06:04 PM
The Cards are missing Jocketty more and more as time goes by.

Actually, signing Berkman seems like a Jocketty type move.

Brutus
12-04-2010, 06:15 PM
Best comment I've seen on this subject (and one of the best I've seen on anything for that matter), per someone on Twitter:

"The Cardinals like L. Berkman so much they're going to put a statue of him in the OF this year."

Awesome.

TheNext44
12-04-2010, 06:19 PM
Actually, signing Berkman seems like a Jocketty type move.

Maybe, except for the desperate smell of it.

But seriously and honestly, how do you feel about this move as a Cardinal fan? Good to hear an intelligent Cardinal perpective on this move.

_Sir_Charles_
12-04-2010, 06:22 PM
Best comment I've seen on this subject (and one of the best I've seen on anything for that matter), per someone on Twitter:

"The Cardinals like L. Berkman so much they're going to put a statue of him in the OF this year."

Awesome.

LOL! You owe me a new monitor! :O) No joking...spewed soda on that one. Classic!

TRF
12-04-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm not enamored with the idea of Jocketty making trades, unless he has a clear upperhand (Edmonds, McGwire). I do like how he handles free agents.

MrCinatit
12-04-2010, 06:30 PM
So, basically the strategy against the Cardinals will be "hit fly balls and run".

Brutus
12-04-2010, 06:31 PM
LOL! You owe me a new monitor! :O) No joking...spewed soda on that one. Classic!

I LOL'd pretty good myself. I'm still chuckling.

Strikes Out Looking
12-04-2010, 06:37 PM
I'm not enamored with the idea of Jocketty making trades, unless he has a clear upperhand (Edmonds, McGwire). I do like how he handles free agents.

Missing EdE at the hot corner are you?

Will Berkman get to use one of those roller things that dogs that have had their legs amputated use when playing in the OF?

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 06:45 PM
But seriously and honestly, how do you feel about this move as a Cardinal fan? Good to hear an intelligent Cardinal perpective on this move.

I'm not sure yet. lol I was hoping the Cards would sign Berkman (but for less money), but I thought they were pretty set on Craig/Jay platooning in RF. If last year was a fluke, then Berkman's bat will give the Cards line-up a huge boost. If it wasn't a fluke, then they just wasted 8Mil. I'm not sure how much worse Berkman's defense is than Craig's defense. Neither are very good defenders, but at least Berkman has proven he can hit. I have a feeling that this means the Cards might package Craig or Jay in a trade. I'd hate to see Craig leave, but I wouldn't be surprised now. All in all... I like the acquisition because it potentially gives us a needed bat, and it's only a 1 year deal. If it was for more than one year, I wouldn't like the deal very much.

Berkman is a guy that I hated watching play the Cardinals as much as you guys hated watching Edmonds play the Reds. You guys accepted Edmonds... I guess we will accept Berkman, but it does feel a little wierd. Hey....bottom line is that if he helps our club, then that is all that matters. I expect him to give us more for the money than Brad Penny gave us for his $8Mil last year.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 06:50 PM
Oh, and btw....if we are going to take such a hit on defense in the OF, then maybe Ryan should stay at SS, and Theriot should be the starting 2B. With Berkman in the lineup, perhaps Ryan's lack of offense won't matter as much.

I had no clue the Cards had $8Mil left to spend.

Caveat Emperor
12-04-2010, 07:08 PM
Honestly, I didn't think Berkman had much in the tank after watching him last year. You can hide a bad glove in LF, but I can't see Berkman being anything other than Gomes-level awful out there.

Having said that, doesn't it seem like these kind of moves always work out in the Cardinals favor?

Strikes Out Looking
12-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Honestly, I didn't think Berkman had much in the tank after watching him last year. You can hide a bad glove in LF, but I can't see Berkman being anything other than Gomes-level awful out there.

Having said that, doesn't it seem like these kind of moves always work out in the Cardinals favor?

Brad Penny?

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 07:13 PM
Brad Penny?

Brad Penny did really well for us until he was injured, which turned into a season ending injury. He could have had a great year without the injury.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 07:17 PM
Honestly, I didn't think Berkman had much in the tank after watching him last year. You can hide a bad glove in LF, but I can't see Berkman being anything other than Gomes-level awful out there.

It's possible, because he looked really bad with the Yankees last year. He has a lot more upside than Jay and Craig though. This move does remind me of a Walt type move though. Bringing in an aging vet at the end of his career like Walker when he was with the Cards and Edmonds with the Reds. I thought Berkman's stint with the Yankees would bring his price down, but like I said, at least it's just a 1 year contract.

mbgrayson
12-04-2010, 07:18 PM
Lance Berkman's fielding stats (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=548&position=1B/OF):

2006, LF for Astros: -7.4 UZR/150
2007, RF for Astros: -48.4 UZR/150

By comparison, lets look at Adam Dunn's outfield fielding:

2007, LF for the Reds: -18.3
2008, LF for Reds/Nats: -20.2
2009, RF for Nats: -42.8

So it is fair to say that Berkman is an 'Adam Dunn caliber' outfielder, only hasn't played outfield for the last 3 seasons, so he may be a little rusty...... ;)

Ron Madden
12-04-2010, 07:27 PM
Honestly, I didn't think Berkman had much in the tank after watching him last year. You can hide a bad glove in LF, but I can't see Berkman being anything other than Gomes-level awful out there.

Having said that, doesn't it seem like these kind of moves always work out in the Cardinals favor?


You're right, I don't have a problem with hiding a bad glove in LF as long as the guy is productive offensively. Plenty of clubs have done it. I'm just not sure that Berkman can still be productive offensively.

I hope this move does not work out in the Cards favor.

mth123
12-04-2010, 07:31 PM
This is puzzling. Ludwick was dealt partially for money reasons (Cards needed a pitcher too). If they can afford Berkman at such a cost, seems like Ludwick's dollars shouldn't have been a factor.

I think this move will add production to the Cards over the status quo, but it won't be ideal and other options seem better.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 07:34 PM
So it is fair to say that Berkman is an 'Adam Dunn caliber' outfielder, only hasn't played outfield for the last 3 seasons, so he may be a little rusty...... ;)

You mean he is an Adam Dunn caliber RIGHTFIELDER...right? Berkman won't be playing right field for the Cards.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 07:37 PM
This is puzzling. Ludwick was dealt partially for money reasons (Cards needed a pitcher too). If they can afford Berkman at such a cost, seems like Ludwick's dollars shouldn't have been a factor.

I think this move will add production to the Cards over the status quo, but it won't be ideal and other options seem better.

I was lukewarm to the Ludwick trade when it happened. In hindsight, I love that trade. I'd rather have Berkman and Westbrook over Ludwick and ??? in the rotation.

RedLegSuperStar
12-04-2010, 08:09 PM
It's possible, because he looked really bad with the Yankees last year. He has a lot more upside than Jay and Craig though. This move does remind me of a Walt type move though. Bringing in an aging vet at the end of his career like Walker when he was with the Cards and Edmonds with the Reds. I thought Berkman's stint with the Yankees would bring his price down, but like I said, at least it's just a 1 year contract.


Lance Berkman's fielding stats (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=548&position=1B/OF):

2006, LF for Astros: -7.4 UZR/150
2007, RF for Astros: -48.4 UZR/150

By comparison, lets look at Adam Dunn's outfield fielding:

2007, LF for the Reds: -18.3
2008, LF for Reds/Nats: -20.2
2009, RF for Nats: -42.8

So it is fair to say that Berkman is an 'Adam Dunn caliber' outfielder, only hasn't played outfield for the last 3 seasons, so he may be a little rusty...... ;)

I'm pretty sure Adam Dunn was dealt to the Arizona Diamondbacks and not the Washington Nationals in 2008

Tom Servo
12-04-2010, 08:51 PM
Ahhh damnit, I just wanted him out of the NL Central.

PuffyPig
12-04-2010, 09:01 PM
Brad Penny did really well for us until he was injured, which turned into a season ending injury. He could have had a great year without the injury.

Penny had been pretty injured/ineffective for the two seasons prior to last year.

Betting $8M that he would be healthy and good was one of those bets that's bound to lose you a division.

PuffyPig
12-04-2010, 09:03 PM
I was lukewarm to the Ludwick trade when it happened. In hindsight, I love that trade. I'd rather have Berkman and Westbrook over Ludwick and ??? in the rotation.

Westbrook was a FA, you could have had him for 2011 with or without the trade.

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 09:05 PM
Westbrook was a FA, you could have had him for 2011 with or without the trade.

In theory, that's true. However, there were a lot of teams that showed interest in him. If he had really tested the FA market, he probably would have had a deal much higher than about $8Mil per year. The Cards had an advantage signing him that they wouldn't have had if they didn't trade for him. He could have easily resigned with the Indians (or whatever team he was traded to) or just went with the highest bidder.

TheNext44
12-04-2010, 09:17 PM
In theory, that's true. However, there were a lot of teams that showed interest in him. If he had really tested the FA market, he probably would have had a deal much higher than about $8Mil per year. The Cards had an advantage signing him that they wouldn't have had if they didn't trade for him. He could have easily resigned with the Indians (or whatever team he was traded to) or just went with the highest bidder.

Even if that's true, and to be honest, it sounds like the spinning I did when the Reds traded Kearns and Lopez, this move is still confusing at best.

The Cards could have acquired Westbrook for low prospects, but chose to trade Ludwick for him because they said they couldn't afford him in arbitration in 2011. I think it's doubtful that Ludwick will get more than $8M in arbitration, or be less productive than Berkman.

But I've seen worse signing turn out positively, especially for the Cards, so who knows?

MattyHo4Life
12-04-2010, 09:31 PM
The Cards could have acquired Westbrook for low prospects, but chose to trade Ludwick for him because they said they couldn't afford him in arbitration in 2011. I think it's doubtful that Ludwick will get more than $8M in arbitration, or be less productive than Berkman.

But I've seen worse signing turn out positively, especially for the Cards, so who knows?

I don't think the Cards were worried about being able to pay Ludwick in 2011. They were worried about keeping him once he became a free agent, as well as resign Pujols.

Mo mentioned that they didn't want to give up any prospects. I for one am glad they didn't give up prospects for Westbrook. It probably would have taken more than low level prospects. IIRC, the Cards didn't match up well with the Indians. I believe they wanted Starting Pitching spects. The Cards are thin on starters in the minors. They have relievers, but not many starters.

I agree...I highly doubt that Ludwick gets more than $8Mil through arbitration. I disagree on the productivity. Lance Berkman has had a better season than Ryan Ludwick every year....even last year.

traderumor
12-04-2010, 09:57 PM
Maybe they got him to DH for interleague play :confused: Just a puzzling, puzzling move, esp. in light of Berkman's leg and age problems.

TRF
12-04-2010, 11:28 PM
Missing EdE at the hot corner are you?

Will Berkman get to use one of those roller things that dogs that have had their legs amputated use when playing in the OF?

No. of course, I'd have had him at LF. And while Rolen has just come off a very nice year, he's 35 and these are his second half numbers: .277 .352 .420 .772

I'm not expecting a huge year offensively from him in 2011. Are you?

Even with the year he had, the Reds should have been grooming their 3B of the future in 2010. I'm hoping they have that figured out or are targeting him for acquisition.

Hoosier Red
12-04-2010, 11:39 PM
Best comment I've seen on this subject (and one of the best I've seen on anything for that matter), per someone on Twitter:

"The Cardinals like L. Berkman so much they're going to put a statue of him in the OF this year."

Awesome.

That one was from OldHossRadbourn on Twitter. Absolutely hysterical twitter feed, and perhaps the only reason I'm happy to have an account.

Cedric
12-05-2010, 12:00 AM
I love Mozeliak being the Cardinals GM.. That's about all I can say.

They have to have one of the worst defensive ball clubs in all of MLB now. Let's see how that plays with Jake Westbrook and whatever other scrubs they have going after the top two starters.

MattyHo4Life
12-05-2010, 01:42 AM
I love Mozeliak being the Cardinals GM..

Well....at least you and I can agree on one thing. For different reasons of course. lol

Phhhl
12-05-2010, 03:33 AM
The Cardinals are not married to Berkman playing an extraordinary number of games as an outfielder. They have players in place in case this project fails, and reason enough to believe that Berkman could earn his money in other ways. I think La Russa likes the guy as a hitter off the bench and an insurance policy if Albert blows out a knee. To tinker with Holliday by having him shift from left to right to accomidate Berkman's outfield defense raises an eyebrow. But, when you are as so behind the Cincinnati Reds at so many positions on a 25 man roster, one cannot be blamed for taking chances like this one. It was a good acquisition by St. Louis.

MattyHo4Life
12-05-2010, 07:45 AM
I'm starting to think his defense won't be as bad as everyone is assuming. He will likely be playing LF....not RF. The Cardinals gave Berkman a physical yesterday, and his knees looked good. He also lost weight, so that should help his knees. The potential of power that he will provide this line-up could make up for any lack in defense. The more I think about this deal, the more I like it.

traderumor
12-05-2010, 08:47 AM
The Cardinals are not married to Berkman playing an extraordinary number of games as an outfielder. They have players in place in case this project fails, and reason enough to believe that Berkman could earn his money in other ways. I think La Russa likes the guy as a hitter off the bench and an insurance policy if Albert blows out a knee. To tinker with Holliday by having him shift from left to right to accomidate Berkman's outfield defense raises an eyebrow. But, when you are as so behind the Cincinnati Reds at so many positions on a 25 man roster, one cannot be blamed for taking chances like this one. It was a good acquisition by St. Louis.I don't think they spent $8M for that. If they did, then it was not a good acquisition.

traderumor
12-05-2010, 08:51 AM
I'm starting to think his defense won't be as bad as everyone is assuming. He will likely be playing LF....not RF. The Cardinals gave Berkman a physical yesterday, and his knees looked good. He also lost weight, so that should help his knees. The potential of power that he will provide this line-up could make up for any lack in defense. The more I think about this deal, the more I like it.I don't think folks are assuming anything. The facts are already in evidence. He will be a poor left-fielder. If he plays significant games there, it will cost the Cards many runs. I watched OFers like him play in a small ballpark for 3-4 years and it wasn't pretty. He is going to be playing LF in Busch, a bigger ballpark than GAB. It ain't gonna be pretty. And if he ends up playing 1B more than a few games? That means Albert's hurt and the Cards are in trouble. The more I think about it, the more I see desparation.

REDblooded
12-05-2010, 09:02 AM
Best comment I've seen on this subject (and one of the best I've seen on anything for that matter), per someone on Twitter:

"The Cardinals like L. Berkman so much they're going to put a statue of him in the OF this year."

Awesome.


Great because it's true... Any Cards fan happy with this signing should flashback to how their team beat the Reds all last season... Hit the ball towards Gomes. They have the same thing now, but worse...

Big Klu
12-05-2010, 09:15 AM
Maybe folks at Cardinalsfest should ask Albert about moving to LF or 3B to make room for Berkman. After all, it will make their lineup better, and if he were a team player he would do it without complaint.

PuffyPig
12-05-2010, 09:58 AM
Maybe folks at Cardinalsfest should ask Albert about moving to LF or 3B to make room for Berkman. After all, it will make their lineup better, and if he were a team player he would do it without complaint.

I don't think Pujols has the arm to play anywhere else but first. Remember the injured arm he has. The Cards will not risk that. At third? No chance.

Cooper
12-05-2010, 10:45 AM
Does this make sense??

Appears to me that if Berkman plays left his defense won't kill his overall value too much because ...well because there aren't a lot of good defensive LFers in the game. Where i see a big reduction is with Holliday's defense. His dWAR has been average compared to other LFers, but if he goes to right then i think you could see a major reduction in his overall value. Essentially the Cards OF will have to hit at a pretty good rate to make up for that kind of adjustment. There are some really good RFers who can play defense.

westofyou
12-05-2010, 11:10 AM
Maybe folks at Cardinalsfest should ask Albert about moving to LF or 3B to make room for Berkman. After all, it will make their lineup better, and if he were a team player he would do it without complaint.

It couldn't hurt... or so I hear.:p:

camisadelgolf
12-05-2010, 11:11 AM
While we're on RZ memes, let's go ahead and drive this one into the ground: How would Chris Carpenter explain Pujols' positional move to his kids?

MattyHo4Life
12-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Does this make sense??

Appears to me that if Berkman plays left his defense won't kill his overall value too much because ...well because there aren't a lot of good defensive LFers in the game. Where i see a big reduction is with Holliday's defense. His dWAR has been average compared to other LFers, but if he goes to right then i think you could see a major reduction in his overall value. Essentially the Cards OF will have to hit at a pretty good rate to make up for that kind of adjustment. There are some really good RFers who can play defense.

Excellent post! You make a lot of good points, and I agree. It's Holliday's defense in RF that might be the problem. Berkman can't play RF, and I don't know if Holliday has ever played RF. The question is how will Holliday compar to Ludwick's defense in RF?

MattyHo4Life
12-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Maybe folks at Cardinalsfest should ask Albert about moving to LF or 3B to make room for Berkman. After all, it will make their lineup better, and if he were a team player he would do it without complaint.

David Freese is our Third Baseman, and he isn't a bad defender. Now that Berkman is in the fold, Craig will be the backup Third baseman instead of platooning in RF. He is a below average Third baseman defensively, but still light years ahead of Felipe Lopez at 3B. I'd take Berkman in LF over Lopez at 3B anyday. If Freese and Berkman stay healthy, the the Cards lineup will be a lot better than the 2010 version.

I(heart)Freel
12-05-2010, 12:41 PM
Maybe folks at Cardinalsfest should ask Albert about moving to LF or 3B to make room for Berkman. After all, it will make their lineup better, and if he were a team player he would do it without complaint.

I got it.

Strikes Out Looking
12-05-2010, 08:11 PM
No. of course, I'd have had him at LF. And while Rolen has just come off a very nice year, he's 35 and these are his second half numbers: .277 .352 .420 .772

I'm not expecting a huge year offensively from him in 2011. Are you?

Even with the year he had, the Reds should have been grooming their 3B of the future in 2010. I'm hoping they have that figured out or are targeting him for acquisition.

While it may be a cliche, I like Scott Rolen's intangibles. I'd take his second half numbers if they get into the playoffs, and who exactly is the 3b of the future?

MattyHo4Life
12-05-2010, 10:28 PM
http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2010/12/puma_signs_with.html

This is a commentary about the trade from a Houston columnist. The comments regarding the trade from Astros fans are across the board. I just thought it was interesting to see the view of the trade and of Berkman from an Astros fan perspective.

I(heart)Freel
12-05-2010, 10:29 PM
Anyone else get the feeling the Reds were talking to Berkman until they heard his people say, "well, you have to beat $8 million"?

TRF
12-05-2010, 11:59 PM
While it may be a cliche, I like Scott Rolen's intangibles. I'd take his second half numbers if they get into the playoffs, and who exactly is the 3b of the future?

no idea. I doubt the reds know either. No one in the org has really stepped forward. Francisco is a LF/DH in the making. Frazier screams utility IF.

I(heart)Freel
12-06-2010, 09:25 AM
At first I was bummed the Reds didn't sign him, but now I'm starting to think that the long season will unmask how wrong this signing was. Especially at that price. I suspect he tears it up in April and May and then slowly fades the rest of the year.

Pundits are equally scratching their heads. I find the square peg/round hole thing fairly apropos.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Square-peg-in-round-hole-Cards-sign-Berkman-to-?urn=mlb-291892

MattyHo4Life
12-06-2010, 09:49 AM
At first I was bummed the Reds didn't sign him, but now I'm starting to think that the long season will unmask how wrong this signing was. Especially at that price. I suspect he tears it up in April and May and then slowly fades the rest of the year.

Pundits are equally scratching their heads. I find the square peg/round hole thing fairly apropos.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Square-peg-in-round-hole-Cards-sign-Berkman-to-?urn=mlb-291892


My reaction was the opposite. At first I wasn't too sure of the deal. His defense is poor, and I thought $8Mil was way too much. The more I think about it, the more I like the deal.Berkman has had some amazing seasons. Even though he is older, he can still hit better than a lot of players, and especially better than anyone we have for that 3rd OF position. I'm a little worried about Holliday moving to RF though. Although, in 2010, the Cards had too many light hitters. With Berkman (I'm guessing hitting second), he will be a huge boost for the line-up. At worst, he is only signed for 1 season. Berkman also brings the same type of intangibles that Rolen and Edmonds brings. Everyone talks about how great of a teammate Berkman is. His presence in the clubhouse could be a great addition.

As far as the pundints, they seem to be wrong a LOT!

camisadelgolf
12-06-2010, 09:56 AM
I think Berkman is a good addition to the Cardinals. Will he be worth the entire $8MM? i doubt it, but it's not like the Cardinals are hurting for cash. If Holliday or Pujols goes down with injury, this could turn out to be one of the smartest moves of the off-season.

Phhhl
12-08-2010, 03:26 PM
I am starting to wonder if the Cardinals didn't sign Berkman in preparation of losing Pujols. Whether it is now during the season, they will definately want to deal him before letting him walk. I cannot imagine Berkman playing more than a handful of ballgames a week as a right fielder. And, I also cannot imagine a team like the Cardinals shelling out more than 30 mil to one player, even if his nickname was "The Man", and contending for very long.

Reading between the lines, I am starting to suspect that is what may be happening. It would be great for baseball to get Albert out of St. Louis :).

mdccclxix
12-08-2010, 03:48 PM
I'm kind of worried about Berkman hitting 2nd before Pujols and Holliday and Rasmus. Or 6th and Rasmus 2nd. Berkman is a HOF-type player. He may not get there, but he's really, really good and I just think his knee injury was the cause of his slide last year. And you know he'll be on base a lot. Frankly, I'm amazed he's fallen this far in public perception. IMO, if he plays 140 games, he earns every penny of that 8 mil. That's a big IF however. And his D in LF may be much worse than Gomes even. We'll see. If you check the similarity list on BRef it shows Albert Belle #1, who was finished at 33 years old, perhaps because no one liked him (or visa versa) as he was still OPSing over .800.

Phhhl
12-08-2010, 03:56 PM
I'm kind of worried about Berkman hitting 2nd before Pujols and Holliday and Rasmus. Or 6th and Rasmus 2nd. Berkman is a HOF-type player. He may not get there, but he's really, really good and I just think his knee injury was the cause of his slide last year. And you know he'll be on base a lot. Frankly, I'm amazed he's fallen this far in public perception. IMO, if he plays 140 games, he earns every penny of that 8 mil. That's a big IF however. And his D in LF may be much worse than Gomes even. We'll see. If you check the similarity list on BRef it shows Albert Belle #1, who was finished at 33 years old, perhaps because no one liked him (or visa versa) as he was still OPSing over .800.

I agree about Berkman's credentials. But, he will be a sieve in the outfield if he plays there much at all. Surely the Cardinals know that. The writing is on the wall. They signed Berkman as insurance for Albert leaving. I doubt it will be before the season. They will wait until the Cardinals are reasonably close to elimination, because they will be able to get almost as much in-season as they would right now. But, I truly believe that is what is happening. They know they can't afford him, and they are preparing for his exit.

It will be a great day to see him out of this division... presumably...

TRF
12-08-2010, 04:01 PM
To me, Berkman's body type screamed sudden decline. He's top heavy, with thin legs, a kind of skinny-fat guy. His bat speed was sloooow last year.

But....

If he is healthy. If he's in a bit better shape. He's a switch hitting version of Pujols. 1 potential .980+ OPS bat. That's a scary thought.

But he'll be a butcher in the OF.

I(heart)Freel
12-08-2010, 04:05 PM
Sounds like the Cards don't want to put two players out of position... so it will be Berkman in right and Holliday staying in left.

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=2846&line=310098&spln=1

mdccclxix
12-08-2010, 04:08 PM
Sounds like the Cards don't want to put two players out of position... so it will be Berkman in right and Holliday staying in left.

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=2846&line=310098&spln=1

Add 5 doubles and a triple to Bruce's projected totals, whatever they may be. :thumbup:

MattyHo4Life
12-08-2010, 05:46 PM
Sounds like the Cards don't want to put two players out of position... so it will be Berkman in right and Holliday staying in left.

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=2846&line=310098&spln=1

That isn't set in stone. LaRussa said that they will go to Spring Training with Berkman playing RF, and see how it goes.

traderumor
12-08-2010, 07:19 PM
That isn't set in stone. LaRussa said that they will go to Spring Training with Berkman playing RF, and see how it goes.I'm sure he'll catch every ball hit right to him. I think the Griffey years in RF will look GG caliber comparatively.

Big Klu
12-08-2010, 09:55 PM
Sounds like the Cards don't want to put two players out of position... so it will be Berkman in right and Holliday staying in left.

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=2846&line=310098&spln=1

The Cards already have three players out of position:

They have a 2B playing SS (Theriot)
They have a CF/5th OF playing 2B (Schumaker)
They have a 1B playing RF/LF (Berkman)

And if Berkman plays LF, they have a LF playing RF (Holliday)

Thats half their starting lineup swimming against the current on the defensive spectrum.

Of course, if Pujols were a true MVP and team player, he would volunteer to move to LF to make room for Berkman at 1B (the same way that RZ expects Votto to move to LF to make room for Alonso at 1B).

But how would Chris Carpenter explain that to his son?

PuffyPig
12-08-2010, 10:24 PM
That isn't set in stone.

Unlike Berkman.......

MattyHo4Life
12-09-2010, 07:43 AM
The Cards already have three players out of position:


Have you not met LaRussa before? 3 players playing out of position is nothing. LaRussa isn't happy unless all of his players can play every position.

MattyHo4Life
12-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Unlike Berkman.......

Berkman will probably be a contender for the glove of stone award this year. lol

Homer Bailey
12-09-2010, 06:32 PM
But how would Chris Carpenter explain that to his son?


Never. Gets. Old.

Ron Madden
12-12-2010, 04:16 PM
Cards send Brendan Ryan to M's for a pitching prospect.

MattyHo4Life
12-12-2010, 04:34 PM
Cards send Brendan Ryan to M's for a pitching prospect.

Now this is a good thing for the Reds. Horrible trade by the Cards.

Ron Madden
12-12-2010, 04:39 PM
Now this is a good thing for the Reds. Horrible trade by the Cards.

I was kinda thinkin' the same thing.

How much do you think Chris Carpenter had to do with this move?

MattyHo4Life
12-12-2010, 04:46 PM
I was kinda thinkin' the same thing.

How much do you think Chris Carpenter had to do with this move?

Probably not much directly, but probably a lot indirectly. It's been said that Ryan wasn't especially liked by certain players (not just Carpenter, but he was most likely one of them) and LaRussa. Ryan was liked by the fans because of his defense and because of his personality. Apparently, he was disliked by LaRussa and other players for his offense and also his personality. It looks like LaRussa won again.

The NL's best defensive shortstop is now in the AL.

camisadelgolf
12-12-2010, 06:42 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cleto-001mai
This is what Brendan Ryan was worth? Wow.

mth123
12-12-2010, 06:55 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cleto-001mai
This is what Brendan Ryan was worth? Wow.

Kid throws upper 90s. He may figure it out. If I were a GM, I wouldn't give that much for Janish.

MattyHo4Life
12-12-2010, 07:02 PM
This is what Mo said about the trade.


"Cleto has a power arm that at times has reached 100 [mph]," Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak said in the announcement. "He's someone that could project as a back of the bullpen talent with additional development and experience."

Ron Madden
12-12-2010, 07:09 PM
The way I see it the Cards better load up on some Pitchers that miss bats because their defense is full of holes.

MattyHo4Life
12-12-2010, 07:22 PM
The way I see it the Cards better load up on some Pitchers that miss bats because their defense is full of holes.

Yep....trading Ryan may help the Cards offense, but hurts the Cards already weak defense.

PuffyPig
12-12-2010, 07:42 PM
This is what Mo said about the trade.

HIs stats say he's be 22 when the season starts, is in A ball, and can't get hitters out to save his life.

The liklihood of him contributing to a major league staff in any meaningful way isn't great.

MattyHo4Life
12-12-2010, 07:47 PM
HIs stats say he's be 22 when the season starts, is in A ball, and can't get hitters out to save his life.

The liklihood of him contributing to a major league staff in any meaningful way isn't great.

Exactly, they just gave him away for nothing per LaRussa's orders. The Cards were desperate to get rid of Ryan which made his already low value drop even more.

camisadelgolf
12-12-2010, 09:42 PM
Kid throws upper 90s. He may figure it out. If I were a GM, I wouldn't give that much for Janish.
This guy can, too: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=martin001jun

What do you think the Reds could get for him?

PuffyPig
12-12-2010, 09:46 PM
Kid throws upper 90s. He may figure it out. If I were a GM, I wouldn't give that much for Janish.

There are literally hunderds of guys in the low minorswho can throw the heat with little command.

Most don't make the majors.

And this guy has extreme command issues.

PuffyPig
12-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Exactly, they just gave him away for nothing per LaRussa's orders. The Cards were desperate to get rid of Ryan which made his already low value drop even more.


I'm sure they made sure to send him to the AL.

I would have made him our starting SS.

MattyHo4Life
12-13-2010, 01:04 AM
There are literally hunderds of guys in the low minorswho can throw the heat with little command.

Most don't make the majors.

And this guy has extreme command issues.

Ryan has a better chance of hitting .300 than this guy of ever aking it in the Majors. I don't think the trade was about getting anything of value for Ryan. It was all about getting him out of the clubhouse ASAP.

mth123
12-13-2010, 02:16 AM
There are literally hunderds of guys in the low minorswho can throw the heat with little command.

Most don't make the majors.

And this guy has extreme command issues.

And there are dozens of guys in the minor leagues who can pick it at SS w/o being able to hit. I like guys who can handle the middle defensively, but if the bat is replacement caliber (or less), he's pretty much an interchangeable part and isn't worth a ton in trade unless he's got some major league intangibles on his resume. Getting a kid who can hit 100 on the gun is a decent return and I don't know if its as common as you claim.

PuffyPig
12-13-2010, 08:08 AM
And there are dozens of guys in the minor leagues who can pick it at SS w/o being able to hit. I like guys who can handle the middle defensively, but if the bat is replacement caliber (or less), he's pretty much an interchangeable part and isn't worth a ton in trade unless he's got some major league intangibles on his resume. Getting a kid who can hit 100 on the gun is a decent return and I don't know if its as common as you claim.

Firstly, Ryan isn't in the minors, he's been a major league SS who has actually hit on occasion. He had a .740 OPS in 2009 before running afoul of Carpenter and Larussa.

Secondly, I don't know where it says he throws 100 MPH. The scouting reports I've seen sayds he throws comfotably in the 92-94 range, maxing out at 96.

This isn't the trade of two low level minor leagues with a particular skill set.

This is the trade of a major league SS who picks them as good as anyone for a 22 year old A minor leaguer who throws upwards to 95 MPH and has had difficulty getting anyone out due to extreme command issues and complete lack of a secondary pitch.

The odds are much better that Ryan will be a major league SS (100%) than Cleo doing anything (<100%).

BTW, per 162 games played in the majors, Ryan is a 2.42 WAR player.

MartyFan
12-13-2010, 10:09 AM
But how would Chris Carpenter explain that to his son?

I came to this thread for no other reason than to see this statement. :beerme:

Homer Bailey
12-13-2010, 02:42 PM
Wow. I just looked up Berkman on FanGraphs to see exactly what kind of defense we're talking about. He had a UZR/150 of -48.4 in 230 innings..... IN 2007.

Honestly, how can the Cardinals even remotely consider him as an OF option? This is an extremely bizarre move if you ask me.

RedsManRick
12-13-2010, 03:24 PM
Wow. I just looked up Berkman on FanGraphs to see exactly what kind of defense we're talking about. He had a UZR/150 of -48.4 in 230 innings..... IN 2007.

Honestly, how can the Cardinals even remotely consider him as an OF option? This is an extremely bizarre move if you ask me.

A full season of UZR is equivalent to 1/3 of a full season of OPS from a sample size perspective. 230 innings is less than 20% of a full season. So you're looking at something like 1/15th of a season, or the equivilent of 40 PA. In otherwords, UZR/150 over 230 innings basically meaningless. A guy could have a .400 OPS or a 1.500 OPS over 40 PA and it would be considered nothing more than a minor streak.

That said, as a Reds fan, I'm excited about the type of defense the Cards are likely to get from Berkman. He was never very good and at 35 is likely to be much more limited.

MattyHo4Life
12-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Wow. I just looked up Berkman on FanGraphs to see exactly what kind of defense we're talking about. He had a UZR/150 of -48.4 in 230 innings..... IN 2007.

Honestly, how can the Cardinals even remotely consider him as an OF option? This is an extremely bizarre move if you ask me.

I think the drop in defense at SS might actually hurt worse than the lack of defense in RF. The Cardinals have a lot of groundball pitchers which is why Ryan was so valuable. I'm not sure that Allen Craig can field a ground ball hit into the outfield that much faster than Lance Berkman can. The offensive upgrade from Jay/Craig to Berkman could be very significant.

Homer Bailey
12-13-2010, 04:55 PM
A full season of UZR is equivalent to 1/3 of a full season of OPS from a sample size perspective. 230 innings is less than 20% of a full season. So you're looking at something like 1/15th of a season, or the equivilent of 40 PA. In otherwords, UZR/150 over 230 innings basically meaningless. A guy could have a .400 OPS or a 1.500 OPS over 40 PA and it would be considered nothing more than a minor streak.

That said, as a Reds fan, I'm excited about the type of defense the Cards are likely to get from Berkman. He was never very good and at 35 is likely to be much more limited.

Yeah, but that's not nearly as fun as my post :D.

And how is Chris Carpenter going to explain your reasoning to his son everytime Berkman can't get to a fly ball?

TRF
12-13-2010, 04:57 PM
I'd pay $5 to see Carpenter try to pull Berkman into a discussion like he did Ryan last year.

I wonder what they would put on his tombstone? "He tried to explain it to his son."

The Operator
12-13-2010, 05:15 PM
So, let's take inventory here.

Bad defender in LF.
Even worse defender in RF.
? at 3B.
A 2B playing SS.
An OF playing 2B.

Add that in with the very real possibility of Colby Rasmus landing in TLR's doghouse yet again resulting on Jon Jay receiving significant time in CF, and "Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls... It is with great pleasure that I present to you, the 2011 St. Louis Cardinals defense!"


YouTube - Circus Attractions theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0I44Md4DY&feature=related)

MattyHo4Life
12-13-2010, 07:56 PM
So, let's take inventory here.

Bad defender in LF.
Even worse defender in RF.
? at 3B.
A 2B playing SS.
An OF playing 2B.

Add that in with the very real possibility of Colby Rasmus landing in TLR's doghouse yet again resulting on Jon Jay receiving significant time in CF, and "Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls... It is with great pleasure that I present to you, the 2011 St. Louis Cardinals defense!"


YouTube - Circus Attractions theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0I44Md4DY&feature=related)

Yep... it looks like LaRussa wants to go in a different direction than in 2010. Forget the defense, and only focus on offense. I guess we will have to wait and see if it works.

traderumor
12-13-2010, 09:46 PM
Yep... it looks like LaRussa wants to go in a different direction than in 2010. Forget the defense, and only focus on offense. I guess we will have to wait and see if it works.I suppose driving off a cliff is a direction...

The Operator
12-13-2010, 10:15 PM
Yep... it looks like LaRussa wants to go in a different direction than in 2010. Forget the defense, and only focus on offense. I guess we will have to wait and see if it works.It's just so un-Cardinal like.

But I guess Tony is trying to prove to all his doubters that he knows best.

MattyHo4Life
12-13-2010, 11:28 PM
It's just so un-Cardinal like.

But I guess Tony is trying to prove to all his doubters that he knows best.

What's new? Everything he does....such as batting the pitcher 8th, is done to prove that he knows best. The fan favorite Brendan Ryan is gone because Tony wanted him gone. Tony always gets his way... no matter what

MattyHo4Life
12-13-2010, 11:32 PM
I suppose driving off a cliff is a direction...

Yes it is lol

westofyou
12-13-2010, 11:36 PM
Yep... it looks like LaRussa wants to go in a different direction than in 2010. Forget the defense, and only focus on offense. I guess we will have to wait and see if it works.
http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2010/12/expendable-brendan-ryan.html

And we really may be getting to the point where Tony La Russa's year-to-year decision to manage or retire is badly and visibly hurting the Cardinals. Because it does not feel like that Cardinals are building a team as much as it feels like they are trying to cobble together one more winner for Tony La Russa.

The Operator
12-14-2010, 02:26 AM
What's new? Everything he does....such as batting the pitcher 8th, is done to prove that he knows best. The fan favorite Brendan Ryan is gone because Tony wanted him gone. Tony always gets his way... no matter whatI gotta say, if you're saying this then I think it must be the truth.

I've read around various Cards boards and there is "The Faction" as well the, well, "Non-Faction" so it's hard to tell whether all the bad things you read about TLR are the real deal or if it's just some grumpy old men venting.

But you're one of the most even keeled Cards fans around, and if you're starting to feel that way about TLR, I gotta wonder what's rotten in St. Louis.

Not that I mind bad things happening in St. Louis, of course. :D

Ron Madden
12-14-2010, 02:32 AM
The Cardinals have come to an agreement with catcher Gerald Laird.

MattyHo4Life
12-14-2010, 08:35 AM
I gotta say, if you're saying this then I think it must be the truth.

I've read around various Cards boards and there is "The Faction" as well the, well, "Non-Faction" so it's hard to tell whether all the bad things you read about TLR are the real deal or if it's just some grumpy old men venting.

But you're one of the most even keeled Cards fans around, and if you're starting to feel that way about TLR, I gotta wonder what's rotten in St. Louis.

Not that I mind bad things happening in St. Louis, of course. :D

Yeah, I'm definitily not a faction member. I don't believe that LaRussa is the cause of all evil happening in the world. I like the Berkman signing, but I hate the Ryan trade... both moves were influenced if not demanded by LaRussa. I do think that both LaRussa and Jocketty have done a lot of good things in St. Louis. Having said that, I think LaRussa has overstayed his welcome. LaRussa goes on this ego trip, and he just gets away with it. I was hoping that LaRussa would retire, and the Cards would continue with their new Saber based philosophy. Unfortunately, the opposite has happened, and the short lived Saber era in St. Louis appears to be over.

I don't think trading Ryan will doom the Cards, but I think it was a stupid and unnecessary move. I do think the Cards are a better team in 2011, but I also hope that LaRussa will retire soon. The sooner LaRussa gets out of town, the sooner the Cards can build for the future. Oh....we just signed a veteran backup catcher for no reason. We have a young catcher that LaRussa refuses to play, but oh well.

Cedric
12-16-2010, 07:42 AM
The Reds won the division last year because they had much better depth than the Cardinals. I don't see much changing at this VERY early juncture. It's a 162 game season and guys like Berkman are going to severely test the overall depth of your roster. I doubt any true Cardinal fan likes what they see the further they peel back the 40 man roster.

MattyHo4Life
12-16-2010, 08:23 AM
The Reds won the division last year because they had much better depth than the Cardinals. I don't see much changing at this VERY early juncture. It's a 162 game season and guys like Berkman are going to severely test the overall depth of your roster. I doubt any true Cardinal fan likes what they see the further they peel back the 40 man roster.

Well there have been some changes. Berkman just adds to the depth. Instead of being the starting RF, Jay is the backup. Craig will be the backup at 3B and RF. SS is the depth that I'm worried about. Berkman is an excellent addition, because he is just that...an addition. The Cards had no intention of signing anyone else to play RF. Jon Jay was going to be the starting RF from everything that was being said up until the Berkman signing. Will he play 162 games? of course not...not even close. His offense will be a boost though and so will his presence in the clubhouse. As far as the 40 man roster, there hasn't been much depth there in the last couple of decades.

TRF
12-16-2010, 09:31 AM
Well there have been some changes. Berkman just adds to the depth. Instead of being the starting RF, Jay is the backup. Craig will be the backup at 3B and RF. SS is the depth that I'm worried about. Berkman is an excellent addition, because he is just that...an addition. The Cards had no intention of signing anyone else to play RF. Jon Jay was going to be the starting RF from everything that was being said up until the Berkman signing. Will he play 162 games? of course not...not even close. His offense will be a boost though and so will his presence in the clubhouse. As far as the 40 man roster, there hasn't been much depth there in the last couple of decades.

His offense MIGHT be a boost. If he's the Berkman he was prior to last year, then sure, .980 OPS bats can make up for some defensive... issues. But his body type always screamed to me swift and sharp decline. He's a top heavy player with somewhat skinny legs. And as for him being in better shape, that's agent/coach speak. we get those stories about 3-4 vets from every team, every year. And honestly, it's just now mid December. How much better shape can he be in after only 2.5 months?

I think this is a gamble. I think the Cards are seeing his past performance as insurance against being unable to re-sign Pujols. And while the Berkman of 3-4 years ago could match Albert, the 2011 version, not so much. I think this offense takes a big tumble, especially if Freese's foot isn't 100%.

MattyHo4Life
12-16-2010, 09:11 PM
I think this is a gamble. I think the Cards are seeing his past performance as insurance against being unable to re-sign Pujols. And while the Berkman of 3-4 years ago could match Albert, the 2011 version, not so much. I think this offense takes a big tumble, especially if Freese's foot isn't 100%.

I don't think it's much of a gamble since it's only a one year deal. Also... this really doesn't have anything to do with Pujols since it's a one year deal. Berkman likely won't be round after 2011 anyways.

Unassisted
12-20-2010, 01:23 PM
Honestly, how can the Cardinals even remotely consider him as an OF option? This is an extremely bizarre move if you ask me.I heard a radio interview with Berkman on KMOX that asked how the Cards knew he could play OF. He said that they asked him and he replied that he "definitely" could do it. Based on his insistence that he could play OF, they signed him. I'm serious... you can hear this show for yourself at the link below.

Based on that method of determining who to sign to play OF, I'm glad that Mozeliak is not the Reds GM.

http://kmox.cbslocal.com/2010/12/14/cardinals-hot-stove-league-show-121410/

MattyHo4Life
12-20-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm glad that Mozeliak is not the Reds GM.

http://kmox.cbslocal.com/2010/12/14/cardinals-hot-stove-league-show-121410/

I'm glad that Mo isn't the Reds GM too. :)

Scrap Irony
12-20-2010, 05:28 PM
If Berkman could be passable in RF, he'd be a great signing.

The chance that he's passable is extremely slim.