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Spitball
12-12-2010, 02:05 PM
The Royals have good lefty starters and relievers coming out their ears. Not sure how much getting a lefty will matter to them.

They really do have a strength with their young lefty starters. I particularly like Montgomery. Also, I believe that kid Marks they acquired in the DeJesus deal is a pretty good lefthanded starter.

The Royals have a pretty good looking future with their young talent. They need a shortstop prospect and outfielders of about any kind...and particularly the centerfield variety. They have centerfield prospect named Jarrod Dyson, but he will probably not be an offensive threat in the big leagues.

After Lee signs, the Royals will be able to open bidding on Greinke. I'm betting someone from either the Rangers, Yankees, Angels, or other desperate franchise will seriously overpay in top prospects for Greinke.

I'm happy for the Royals and their fans, though. This should be good for them.

mth123
12-12-2010, 02:38 PM
They really do have a strength with their young lefty starters. I particularly like Montgomery. Also, I believe that kid Marks they acquired in the DeJesus deal is a pretty good lefthanded starter.

The Royals have a pretty good looking future with their young talent. They need a shortstop prospect and outfielders of about any kind...and particularly the centerfield variety. They have centerfield prospect named Jarrod Dyson, but he will probably not be an offensive threat in the big leagues.

After Lee signs, the Royals will be able to open bidding on Greinke. I'm betting someone from either the Rangers, Yankees, Angels, or other desperate franchise will seriously overpay in top prospects for Greinke.

I'm happy for the Royals and their fans, though. This should be good for them.

If Lee goes to Texas its pretty muddy. The Rangers with SS propspects Jurickson Profar and Luis Sardinas and OF prospects Engel Beltre and Julio Borbon and a number of pitchers match-up very well. They also have already ticketed the cash for Lee so taking on the money won't be an issue.

The Yankees OTOH have some Pitchers and Catchers and don't fit nearly as well in a Greinke deal. The Angels could offer Mike Trout but not really a SS for down the road. Aybar would be an interesting idea with Izturis taking over in LA. Can't imagine Wood would be anything more than a throw in.

KC really needs Lee to go to NY so they can deal with Texas. Greinke for Profar, Beltre, Derek Holland and a lesser arm would really add about all that might be missing in KC for about 5 years in the middle of the decade.

corkedbat
12-12-2010, 11:54 PM
If Lee goes to Texas its pretty muddy. The Rangers with SS propspects Jurickson Profar and Luis Sardinas and OF prospects Engel Beltre and Julio Borbon and a number of pitchers match-up very well. They also have already ticketed the cash for Lee so taking on the money won't be an issue.

The Yankees OTOH have some Pitchers and Catchers and don't fit nearly as well in a Greinke deal. The Angels could offer Mike Trout but not really a SS for down the road. Aybar would be an interesting idea with Izturis taking over in LA. Can't imagine Wood would be anything more than a throw in.

KC really needs Lee to go to NY so they can deal with Texas. Greinke for Profar, Beltre, Derek Holland and a lesser arm would really add about all that might be missing in KC for about 5 years in the middle of the decade.

I'd like to see the Reds deal with Texas.

Ron Madden
12-13-2010, 12:20 AM
MLBTR says the Brewers are still in on a deal for Greinke.

kaldaniels
12-13-2010, 09:20 AM
Do you let the chance that a division rival will land Greinke affect your agressiveness/who you would give up in going after Greinke.

edabbs44
12-13-2010, 09:27 AM
Do you let the chance that a division rival will land Greinke affect your agressiveness/who you would give up in going after Greinke.

You stay within your means. If, going into it, you are willing to trade Players X, Y and Z but have only talked Players X and Y to this point, then add Z to the mix. But don't go overboard.

Red Leader
12-13-2010, 09:31 AM
Do you let the chance that a division rival will land Greinke affect your agressiveness/who you would give up in going after Greinke.

Nope, each team should be set their own value on a player and that value isn't dependant on who else is bidding.

Dan
12-13-2010, 01:22 PM
MLB Trade Rumors (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/zack-greinke-rumors-monday-1.html?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed)

Moore "has focused on adding up-the-middle position players who are close to major league ready," and the Yankees, Rangers, and Brewers are not considered among the best matches.

TRF
12-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Hmm, I'd offer this: Cozart, Leake, Sappelt, Joseph and Grandal as the PTBNL. The Royals get a SP to add to next year's rotation, a SS with pop that just finished a solid year at AAA. A future closer to possibly replace their current closer and a CF coming off a stellar year across three levels. Add Grandal after January and that should get the deal done.

Benihana
12-13-2010, 01:46 PM
Hmm, I'd offer this: Cozart, Leake, Sappelt, Joseph and Grandal as the PTBNL. The Royals get a SP to add to next year's rotation, a SS with pop that just finished a solid year at AAA. A future closer to possibly replace their current closer and a CF coming off a stellar year across three levels. Add Grandal after January and that should get the deal done.

I agree, although I'd give them the option of Heisey or LaMarre if they preferred them over Sappelt.

Also, I'd hang onto Cozart and instead offer Valaika and/or any of the A-AA middle infielders (Gregorious, Negron, Lohman, Rojas, Rodriguez). I would not offer Billy Hamilton.

RedLegSuperStar
12-13-2010, 02:59 PM
Cozart, Valaika, Frazier, Sappelt, Hamilton, Mesarosco, Heisey, Stubbs.. Who am I missing?

TheNext44
12-13-2010, 03:11 PM
I think the Royals want a young arm that projects to be a solid #1. The Reds really don't have that. But I've learned to never try to guess what Moore is thinking.

I(heart)Freel
12-13-2010, 03:17 PM
Hmm, I'd offer this: Cozart, Leake, Sappelt, Joseph and Grandal as the PTBNL. The Royals get a SP to add to next year's rotation, a SS with pop that just finished a solid year at AAA. A future closer to possibly replace their current closer and a CF coming off a stellar year across three levels. Add Grandal after January and that should get the deal done.

I don't know nothing about nothing, but that *seems* excessive.

But it wouldn't put the Reds back too much in the coming years, given the depth at those positions. Although giving away a SS might be tough for the Reds to do.

Leake, Grandal, and [Sappelt OR Heisey] seems the right start. Having said that, I wouldn't let Donnie Joseph be the reason the Reds don't trade for Greinke.

westofyou
12-15-2010, 09:56 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/new-york-yankees-seattle-mariners-Felix-Hernandez-should-be-untouchable-Ken-Rosenthal-121410



THE REDS: TOO QUIET?
If not for their apparent payroll restrictions, the Reds might be a team to watch, maybe even a favorite to land Greinke.

It would be difficult for the Reds to satisfy the Royals’ desire for up-the-middle players. But the team seemingly has enough pitching and corner talent to figure out something.

The problem is money.

The Reds are expected to field a payroll of roughly $80 million in 2011. They’ve already got $55 million committed — and that’s before going to arbitration with first baseman Joey Votto and righties Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto....

Benihana
12-15-2010, 10:06 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/new-york-yankees-seattle-mariners-Felix-Hernandez-should-be-untouchable-Ken-Rosenthal-121410

A problem with up-the-middle players? I would think the Reds have an abundance of up-the-middle prospects- maybe more than any other team in the league: Heisey, Sappelt, LaMarre, Y.Rodriguez, Mesoraco, Grandal, Hamilton, Gregorious, Lohman, Valaika, Cozart, Janish, Torreyes, H.Rodriguez, Negron, Rojas...

I realize some of those guys (Y-Rod, Mesoraco, Hamilton) are better prospects than others (H-Rod, Lohman, Negron), but the point still holds...

Is there another team in the game that has five "up-the-middle" prospects better than Y-Rod, Mesoraco, Grandal, Hamilton, and Heisey/Sappelt?

I believe the need for Greinke is bigger than ever with Lee signing with the Phillies. If anyone is going to compete with them in a postseason series, they have to have at least one bona fide ace. If the money is that tight, maybe dumping Cordero on the Yankees is actually a decent play.

lollipopcurve
12-15-2010, 10:12 AM
THE REDS: TOO QUIET?
If not for their apparent payroll restrictions, the Reds might be a team to watch, maybe even a favorite to land Greinke.

It would be difficult for the Reds to satisfy the Royals’ desire for up-the-middle players. But the team seemingly has enough pitching and corner talent to figure out something.

The problem is money.

The Reds are expected to field a payroll of roughly $80 million in 2011. They’ve already got $55 million committed — and that’s before going to arbitration with first baseman Joey Votto and righties Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto....

I have been a staunch supporter of Jocketty and this ownership group. They've turned the franchise around. Even if they fail to improve the team this offseason -- putting all the onus for that on the players -- I will still feel they've been great.

However, if the team cries poor and does not bid for Greinke (or Reyes), I will be really disappointed. An ace is practically being served to them on a plate of china. Folks, this just does not happen. Jocketty has been known as a GM who can close deals for key players and then lock them up. Seemingly, the opportunity is staring him in the face right now.

I don't think he's blinking. I think ownership is. I could be wrong. But it feels like Cincinnati, in the form of this homegrown ownership group, is curling up in a conservative cocoon.

Yeah, it's not my money, but hey guys -- no risk, no reward.

mth123
12-15-2010, 10:17 AM
A problem with up-the-middle players? I would think the Reds have an abundance of up-the-middle prospects- maybe more than any other team in the league: Heisey, Sappelt, LaMarre, Y.Rodriguez, Mesoraco, Grandal, Hamilton, Gregorious, Lohman, Valaika, Cozart, Janish, Torreyes, H.Rodriguez, Negron, Rojas...

I realize some of those guys (Y-Rod, Mesoraco, Hamilton) are better prospects than others (H-Rod, Lohman, Negron), but the point still holds...

Is there another team in the game that has five "up-the-middle" prospects better than Y-Rod, Mesoraco, Grandal, Hamilton, and Heisey/Sappelt?

I believe the need for Greinke is bigger than ever with Lee signing with the Phillies. If anyone is going to compete with them in a postseason series, they have to have at least one bona fide ace. If the money is that tight, maybe dumping Cordero on the Yankees is actually a decent play.

Y-Rod is too far a way and Mesoraco is the only other that would be accepteable IMO. The Royals are looking for players to man 2B and SS and make an impact in 2013 or so. The Reds don't really have anyone. Heisey/Sappelt might interest them as the 3rd guy in a package and Leake could probably be one of the top 2, but there is no Elvis Andrus or Jurickson Profar to be had.

I've read that the Rangers don't match up, but I would think a package of Profar, Engel Beltre and Derek Holland is exactly what the Royals would be after. I'm guessing the Rangers are balking at giving up so much. I still think the Rangers will get the deal. They have plenty of good young pitching prospects and with Profar probably the best MI who looks like excess.

The Cubs might be a dark hosre. They could offer Hak-Ju Lee and round it out with somebody like Brett Jackson and an arm.

Benihana
12-15-2010, 10:30 AM
Y-Rod is too far a way and Mesoraco is the only other that would be accepteable IMO. The Royals are looking for players to man 2B and SS and make an impact in 2013 or so. The Reds don't really have anyone. Heisey/Sappelt might interest them as the 3rd guy in a package and Leake could probably be one of the top 2, but there is no Elvis Andrus or Jurickson Profar to be had.

I've read that the Rangers don't match up, but I would think a package of Profar, Engel Beltre and Derek Holland is exactly what the Royals would be after. I'm guessing the Rangers are balking at giving up so much. I still think the Rangers will get the deal. They have plenty of good young pitching prospects and with Profar probably the best MI who looks like excess.

The Cubs might be a dark hosre. They could offer Hak-Ju Lee and round it out with somebody like Brett Jackson and an arm.


You do realize that Jurickson Profar is 17 years old, and has yet to put up a .700 OPS in short season A ball? You really think he can make an impact in 2013? How is that any different than Hamilton, Y-Rod, Grandal, etc.? While he may not have the same upside, Cozart is far more likely to make an impact in 2013 than Profar. Ditto for Hak-Ju Lee, who just completed a .700 OPS season in A ball and is the same age as Hamilton.

Finally, Reds could easily beat the Rangers package you mentioned with Travis Wood, Billy Hamilton, and LaMarre/Sappelt. I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay that price (it would pain me to give up Hamilton and Wood), but they could do it if they were so inclined.

TheNext44
12-15-2010, 10:46 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/new-york-yankees-seattle-mariners-Felix-Hernandez-should-be-untouchable-Ken-Rosenthal-121410

Rosenthal must have flunked math.

I've shown this in another thread, but here is the math again:

$55M (that includes Bruce's new contract)
$15M worst case scenario for arbitration cases
$05M the remaining 9-10 spots in the roster.

That's $75M not including Arroyo's deferred salary.

Let's say $3M gets taken off the payroll, although it could be as high as $6M.

That's $72M or around $8M to spend in a worst case scenario. A reasonable scenario would be another $5M or $13M total more to spend.

Greinke costs $13M. Even in a worst case scenario, I would think that the Reds could find a way to either save $5M or increase payroll enough to afford Greinke.

My thoughts in this is that Jocketty thinks Greinke salary is too high for him, considering the cheap talent that it will also cost. People are misinterpreting that as Jocketty saying that the Reds can't afford to add payroll. Or Jocketty is just saying that to drive the price down on what he wants.

IslandRed
12-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Mesoraco is the only other that would be acceptable IMO.

Based on how I've been reading it, you are probably right. The Royals want (1) up the middle, (2) impact and (3) soon. Mesoraco's the only one who fits that description. The others are either too far away to count on as impact players, or aren't viewed as impact players. I'm assuming the Royals are using the "above average regular if not an outright star" definition of impact, which, in a trade discussion for Greinke, they ought to be.

TheNext44
12-15-2010, 03:08 PM
$15M worst case scenario for arbitration cases
$05M the remaining 9-10 spots in the roster.

Pretty clear to me that the above aren't etched in stone

How could Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bray and Burton get much more than $15M in arbitration? Even if Votto gets $10M, I don't see Cueto getting more than $3M and Volquez more than $2M. Maybe Burton and Bray get $1M total. So maybe it's $15.7M. And I don't see Votto getting more than $7M.

The final spots, as of now, are getting close to the league minimum. That is certain. That won't change until the Reds sign a new player. When that happens, the payroll changes, but until then, it is certain that they will get the league minimum because the Reds only have guys making around the league minimum to fill them.

The only thing I don't have certainty about, is how much of Arroyo's deferred money the Reds plan on using towards payroll. But they wouldn't have made the deal if they weren't going to use a good chunk of it.

Actually, what I think is happening is that the Reds waiting to see how much they save in arbitration from the worst case scenario, and will make real moves only after then, when they know exactly how much they can spend. Maybe that was your point? That the payroll could gain some flexibility. I agree with you on that, if that is your point. But I don't see the payroll having less flexibility than what I pointed out.

Mario-Rijo
12-15-2010, 03:45 PM
Based on how I've been reading it, you are probably right. The Royals want (1) up the middle, (2) impact and (3) soon. Mesoraco's the only one who fits that description. The others are either too far away to count on as impact players, or aren't viewed as impact players. I'm assuming the Royals are using the "above average regular if not an outright star" definition of impact, which, in a trade discussion for Greinke, they ought to be.

1 Impact Arm - Bailey
1 Up the middle impact player - Grandal (as PTBNL)
2 other usable players no doubt preferably up the middle and/or arms. - Sappelt & Boxberger

You bump up the back end to better than usable with Sappelt (usable, potentially solid OF) and Boxberger who is clearly a prospect with above average or better potential. They may come back with Heisey and Mes instead and that is when you bend and give them Heisey but not Mes if they include some cash. If that isn't enough you move on and wait them out and see if midseason the price drops.

westofyou
12-15-2010, 03:49 PM
1 Impact Arm - Bailey
1 Up the middle impact player - Grandal (as PTBNL)
2 other usable players no doubt preferably up the middle and/or arms. - Sappelt & Boxberger

You bump up the back end to better than usable with Sappelt (usable, potentially solid OF) and Boxberger who is clearly a prospect with above average or better potential. They may come back with Heisey and Mes instead and that is when you bend and give them Heisey but not Mes if they include some cash. If that isn't enough you move on and wait them out and see if midseason the price drops.

Really?

What no magic beans too?

Talent gets Greinke, not maybes

Mario-Rijo
12-15-2010, 03:50 PM
Really?

What no magic beans too?

Talent gets Greinke, not maybes

So then let 'em keep him. I mean aren't they all maybes. Tell me the big trade idea that they would accept that isn't gonna gut our talent base. One of the best bats in all of baseball just got dealt for less than that IMO.

redsmetz
12-15-2010, 03:55 PM
Someone mentioned Grandal as a PTBNL in January, but I think the rule is a 1st year draft player cannot be traded until one year after they've signed. IIRC, he signed at the deadline, so he's not eligible to be traded until August (was that the deadline this year?). Remember PTNBL's have to be named within six months of the trade.

westofyou
12-15-2010, 03:59 PM
Tell me the big trade idea that they would accept that isn't gonna gut our talent base.

There's the rub, you don't trade for a TOR starter without gutting some talent.

Anyway, I don't play "hot stove" myself, it's mostly imaginary IMO.

Mario-Rijo
12-15-2010, 04:00 PM
There's the rub, you don't trade for a TOR starter without gutting some talent.

Anyway, I don't play "hot stove" myself, it's mostly imaginary IMO.

I see, guess imaginary commissioner is much more fun.

westofyou
12-15-2010, 04:02 PM
I see, guess imaginary commissioner is much more fun.

Nah, imaginary player tops 'em all

TRF
12-15-2010, 04:06 PM
Nah, imaginary player tops 'em all

ooh. I've played that game. for some reason I always imagine I am in RF.

Mario-Rijo
12-15-2010, 04:08 PM
ooh. I've played that game. for some reason I always imagine I am in RF.

SS for me.

Brutus
12-15-2010, 05:35 PM
Someone mentioned Grandal as a PTBNL in January, but I think the rule is a 1st year draft player cannot be traded until one year after they've signed. IIRC, he signed at the deadline, so he's not eligible to be traded until August (was that the deadline this year?). Remember PTNBL's have to be named within six months of the trade.

Correct. He can't be traded, even as a PTBNL, until mid-February.

Slyder
12-15-2010, 07:30 PM
Correct. He can't be traded, even as a PTBNL, until mid-February.

Could you trade a "PTBNL" for another one at some future point?

Brutus
12-15-2010, 08:47 PM
Could you trade a "PTBNL" for another one at some future point?

I suppose there are ways around it, though the commissioner could probably void a trade if it were an attempt to skirt the 1-year rule for first-contract players.

But yeah, I'm sure they could get creative if they needed to.

thatcoolguy_22
12-15-2010, 11:59 PM
We are talking about the Royals. WJ should tell them that they are just wasting money paying Grienke (obviously a horrible pitcher) and that we can help them out. We take over the contract and they will be free to sign pavano and any other middling FA out there with the savings. Bam! Imaginary GM is easy

IslandRed
12-16-2010, 10:22 AM
If that isn't enough you move on and wait them out and see if midseason the price drops.

The Royals farm system is loaded and they're very focused on what they need, so the Sappelt/Boxberger types probably aren't going to move the needle. But the danger from the Royals' perspective is that they repeat the mistake made when they traded Carlos Beltran, where they were so specific about their wants that they ended up accepting a lesser package of talent than many believed was on the table from other teams. Sometimes everything can't be solved in one deal.

But ultimately, your quoted passage is correct. This is just the first of four trading windows KC has before Greinke walks, and it may not get done this time around.

lollipopcurve
12-16-2010, 10:40 AM
This is just the first of four trading windows KC has before Greinke walks, and it may not get done this time around.

Right. In fact, the Reds may be in a better position to make the deal at the July deadline, close to when they're able to send Grandal directly to KC (or be able to determine whether they'd prefer to keep Grandal over Mesoraco). The risk, of course, is that someone else jumps in and makes the trade. But I think what separates the Reds as a suitor is the young catcher they can offer.

The point about KC not getting everything they want out of the Greinke deal is a good one. If they focus just on getting one great piece -- for example, a top-shelf catcher of the future -- AND they go ahead and put Soria on the market, they stand a very good chance of getting back at least two surefire key cogs for their future. Soria is locked up for many years on a very team-friendly deal -- with the way reliever prices are jumping, teams would cough up a lot for him, I think.

backbencher
12-16-2010, 12:57 PM
But I think what separates the Reds as a suitor is the young catcher they can offer.

The point about KC not getting everything they want out of the Greinke deal is a good one. If they focus just on getting one great piece -- for example, a top-shelf catcher of the future

Wil Myers is considered a better catching prospect than anyone the Reds have.

Unless the Royals love the Reds' young/rookie starters, the teams don't match up that well for a trade, I don't think.

Benihana
12-16-2010, 02:40 PM
Wil Myers is considered a better catching prospect than anyone the Reds have.

Unless the Royals love the Reds' young/rookie starters, the teams don't match up that well for a trade, I don't think.

Wil Myers will be a corner outfielder, not a catcher, in the Majors.

RedsManRick
12-16-2010, 07:17 PM
Joe Posnanski on Greinke: http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2010/12/being-there-with-greinke.html#more



I have written about Zack Greinke many times, for many years, and there's one thing I can say without even the slightest doubt: I have no idea what's going on in his head. Of course, you never really know what's going on in anybody's head, and that often includes your own. But with Greinke ... I feel confident in saying that I'm not even close....

lollipopcurve
12-16-2010, 09:03 PM
Wil Myers will be a corner outfielder, not a catcher, in the Majors.

Yep.

lollipopcurve
12-17-2010, 09:38 AM
Joe Posnanski on Greinke: http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/201...inke.html#more

Thanks RMR. That's a great story. One of the things about ZG that appeals to me is his somewhat ethereal nature. This meshes well, somehow, with the artistry of his stuff. Combine that with his pure athleticism (great fielder, good hitter for a pitcher -- like Leake and Wood), and you've got one hell of a ballplayer, and one hell of an interesting ballplayer.

The Reds are primed to win, and Greinke is dying to win. That's what leads me to believe they could keep him in Cincy beyond 2 years, if they really wanted to.

Scrap Irony
12-17-2010, 09:58 AM
I agree, lollipop, as per usual. Greinke is more than a good pitcher-- he's an interesting guy who dances to the beat of his own drum. As a narrative, he's got some panache that others don't. Pehaps that's why I'd like to deal for him and am willing to give up more than others?

RedLegSuperStar
12-17-2010, 09:09 PM
Greinke reportedly requests to be traded after firing his agent and choosing Casey Close. He has seemingly backed the Royals into a corner and the Royals intend to grant Greinke his wish. I think if you want to make a statement and prove they intend to stay atop the Central then you go out and deal for this Ace!

HotCorner
12-17-2010, 09:41 PM
Only 8 days until Christmas! Although I wouldn't mind if it came a little earlier. :)

The Operator
12-17-2010, 11:27 PM
Casey Close is Greinke's new agent?

Uh oh... if The Reds do acquire him, we'll hear about how he deserves premium money even at age 37 and after a sharp decline, because of what he means to the franchise. :D

paulrichjr
12-17-2010, 11:45 PM
Could you trade a "PTBNL" for another one at some future point?


Wasn't Wayne Krenchicki traded for a PTBNL and then traded back as the PTBNL at the end of the season?

PuffyPig
12-17-2010, 11:49 PM
Wasn't Wayne Krenchicki traded for a PTBNL and then traded back as the PTBNL at the end of the season?

Wayne was a PTBNL, but was never traded for one. And he wasn't traded for himself.

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2010, 09:19 AM
Maybe it was reported here not sure but I believe I heard on MLB TV (during the winter meetings) that he was asked during the winter meetings (not necessarily at the winter meetings) where he thought was an ideal fit for him and he said Cincy. Small market club, competitive and young may have accompanied the answer as reasons not sure if he added the rationale or someone else did. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Mario-Rijo
12-18-2010, 09:49 AM
A big write up on how it's in the Royals best interests to deal Greinke before games (of any nature) are played by Buster Olney. ESPN insider subscription required to read the rest.

An interesting snippet:

So it makes sense for the Royals to accelerate this process, to make the right deal before the start of spring training. The Rangers made what they considered to be an aggressive offer for Greinke during the winter meetings, only to learn that they were far short of Kansas City's expectations. The Nationals were told that in order to get Greinke they would have to surrender Jordan Zimmermann, Drew Storen, and second baseman Danny Espinosa.

At some point in the weeks ahead, some rival executives think that the Royals will gradually reduce their demands, until they can make a deal they find acceptable.

LINK (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5932598)

BTW anyone want to guesstimate what the Reds version of that Nats deal. Leake, Boxberger, Cozart, maybe sprinkle in Sappelt to get it done?

kaldaniels
12-18-2010, 10:13 AM
Maybe it was reported here not sure but I believe I heard on MLB TV (during the winter meetings) that he was asked during the winter meetings (not necessarily at the winter meetings) where he thought was an ideal fit for him and he said Cincy. Small market club, competitive and young may have accompanied the answer as reasons not sure if he added the rationale or someone else did. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

That's impressive I'd love to hear that interview.

Edd Roush
12-18-2010, 11:31 AM
A big write up on how it's in the Royals best interests to deal Greinke before games (of any nature) are played by Buster Olney. ESPN insider subscription required to read the rest.

An interesting snippet:


LINK (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5932598)

BTW anyone want to guesstimate what the Reds version of that Nats deal. Leake, Boxberger, Cozart, maybe sprinkle in Sappelt to get it done?

If that's all it takes to get done, the Reds better pull the trigger and get that deal done. Just have to dump Cordero's salary on some one. I have to think that it would take two of your young pitchers to get it done.

TheNext44
12-18-2010, 01:58 PM
The Reds version of J. Zimmerman, Storan and Espinosa is probably:

Leake, Wood, and Hamilton

Cedric
12-18-2010, 02:36 PM
The Reds version of J. Zimmerman, Storan and Espinosa is probably:

Leake, Wood, and Hamilton

I would be beyond shocked if the Royals get close to that much from anyone. They are losing traction on a trade every day seemingly. They need to move him now, IMO.

TheNext44
12-18-2010, 02:40 PM
I would be beyond shocked if the Royals get close to that much from anyone. They are losing traction on a trade every day seemingly. They need to move him now, IMO.

Without a doubt. The best thing for the Reds and any team interested in Greinke was him demanding a trade.

I'm guessing a young power arm, a young middle infielder and a Single A, #10-20 prospect.

Homer Bailey
12-19-2010, 12:03 AM
Milwaukee Wisconsin Journal Sentinel saying Greinke to the Brewers:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/fanblogs/112137964.html


A source informed me earlier today that the Milwaukee Brewers have come to a preliminary agreement with the Kansas City Royals for a deal that would send pitcher Zack Greinke to Milwaukee.

The rumored agreement would send shortstop Alcides Escobar, center fielder Lorenzo Cain, and right-hander Jeremy Jeffress to Kansas City in return for Greinke, shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt and approximately $2M.

kaldaniels
12-19-2010, 12:11 AM
Houston, we have a problem.

Oxilon
12-19-2010, 12:24 AM
Escobar is good, not really sure about Cain and Jeffress though. Can't imagine we couldn't have topped that offer though. I suppose money really is the problem if this is the deal. Either way, the Brewers just made a nice addition; Walt, what's your next move?

TheNext44
12-19-2010, 12:51 AM
If this rumor is true, and that's a big if, I don't think the Reds could have, nor should have topped it.

The Royals wanted a young, cheap power arm. The only guy the Reds have that fits that description is Chapman. Not giving him up.

The Royals wanted a major league ready, young cheap SS. I guess Cozart might have worked here, but the Royals probably liked Escobar better.

The Royals wanted a major leageu ready, young cheap CF. Unless the Reds were willing to give up Stubbs, the Royals weren't interested.

Two comments:

1) If this is true, it really is not a good trade for the Brewers. They have severly weakened themselves at two very important starting positions, SS and CF, especially defensively. Bentencourt might be the worst starting player in the majors. Think Keppinger defense and Taveras offense. He is just terrible.
The Brewers will also have to start Gomez in CF, and he while he was solid defense, he too is Taverasesque on offense. A career .642 OPS in 445 games.

2) Greinke should be royally upset if this is true. He wanted to leave the Royals because they have a horrible defense, and he goes to the Brewers who not only have a horrible defense, but it just got worse at the most crucial position because of this rumored trade. They may score a bunch more runs for him, but he is going to need to strike everyone out to win games.

Screwball
12-19-2010, 12:58 AM
2) Greinke should be royally upset if this is true. He wanted to leave the Royals because they have a horrible defense, and he goes to the Brewers who not only have a horrible defense, but it just got worse at the most crucial position because of this rumored trade. They may score a bunch more runs for him, but he is going to need to strike everyone out to win games.

He just might. Greinke's gonna murder the National League.

TheNext44
12-19-2010, 01:02 AM
The report has been varified by the reporter but the deal has the Brewers also sending Jake Odorizzi to the Royals. That's a great deal for KC.

Basically it would be similar to sending:

Leake, Wood, Cozart and Stubbs for Greinke and Bentencourt.

The Brewers are clearly going all in this year, probably their last with Fielder.

BTW, the Brewers message boards hate this deal. Lots of whining and crying.

Ron Madden
12-19-2010, 01:03 AM
If this rumor is true the addition of Marcum and Greinke to the Brewers pitching staff makes Milwaukee contenders for the division title.

corkedbat
12-19-2010, 01:09 AM
The rest of the divison certainly isn't sitting still. Wonder if this ends the Brewers talks with Pavano? I'd say yes.

TheNext44
12-19-2010, 01:11 AM
He just might. Greinke's gonna murder the National League.

That's what I don't like about the deal. Having to face Greinke 3-4 times next season. Ouch.

TheNext44
12-19-2010, 01:14 AM
Going out on a bit of a limb here, but I predict that Greinke will get traded again at the trade deadline next season, when the struggling Brewers trade Fielder as well.

corkedbat
12-19-2010, 01:17 AM
I'd love to have Escobar.

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-19-2010, 04:14 AM
Sigh ...

The division gets better while Walt does absolutely nothing.

mth123
12-19-2010, 04:48 AM
Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum and Wolf. Best staff in the central if this happens. Escobar is a steep price, but a Gomez/Dickerosn tandem will fill CF fine.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2010, 07:09 AM
Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum and Wolf. Best staff in the central if this happens.

Almost, but not as good as Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, and Westbrook.

mth123
12-19-2010, 07:26 AM
Almost, but not as good as Wainwright, Carpenter, Garcia, and Westbrook.

I like Marcum and Wolf a lot more than Garcia and Westbrook. I have low expectations for Garcia in 2011. Greinke and Wainwright are a push at the top. This may be the year that Gallardo surpasses Carpenter, especially if all eyes are on Greinke now and Gallardo doesn't have to be "the man."

I'm just not convinced its done. Places that usually run with these things early in the process haven't reported anything.

RANDY IN INDY
12-19-2010, 08:32 AM
Sounds like it is nearly a done deal, per ESPN. I was really hoping the Reds could obtain Greinke.

kbrake
12-19-2010, 08:37 AM
Was hoping to see Greinke in Cincinnati on Opening Day though this isn't what I had in mind. That Cordero contract has cut Walt's hands off.

cincrazy
12-19-2010, 08:42 AM
Going out on a bit of a limb here, but I predict that Greinke will get traded again at the trade deadline next season, when the struggling Brewers trade Fielder as well.

With the addition of Greinke and Marcum, the Brewers are better positioned than the Redlegs and the Cards to win the division next season. They've already got the offense, and their rotation went from pretty bad to damn good. The Brewers legitimately scare me next season.

lollipopcurve
12-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Dang. But KC got what it wanted. If Escobar rebounds from a mediocre first full year, he'll be a good get -- last year at this time he was considered a SS prospect on par with Elvis Andrus. Reds could not have matched this if KC wanted MLB ready up the middle players.

Really was hoping they could get Greinke.

Reds still faced with needing to use the trade market to improve the team.

RANDY IN INDY
12-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Would be promising to see them do something to improve the ballclub.

Scrap Irony
12-19-2010, 08:44 AM
Greinke, Gallardo, Marcum and Wolf. Best staff in the central if this happens. Escobar is a steep price, but a Gomez/Dickerosn tandem will fill CF fine.

Disagree with both of these, mth.

Milwaukee's rotation would be above average, certainly. But not the best in the Central. If Garcia is healthy (a huge if, after the massive jump in innings last season), St. Louis beats them across the board (Wainwright > Greinke, Carpenter > Gallardo, Garcia > Marcum, Westbrook > Wolf).

And Cincinnati's staff, if depth and the real-world vagaries of time and injury rear their ugly heads, could be right there as well. If one of the young guns steps up and becomes a legitimate TOR arm, they'd stack up at three of the five spots, IMO, really well.

As to CF, yuck for Gomez and double yuck for Dickerson. No answer (or a really, really bad answer) at SS, and iron gloves everywhere. (There is NO position on the Milwaukee field that averages out a average or better. Not one, according to BIS.)

Too, the Brewer pen is stll pretty rough. Axelford is solidly above average (or at least was in 2010), but the rest of it? Untested, untried, and ineffective.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2010, 08:46 AM
Greinke and Wainwright are a push at the top.

How do you figure that? Greinke had one amazing year that was better than Wainwright. The chances of Greinke repeating that year are slim, and you sure can't count on it. Except for that one year, Wainwright has been better than Greinke every year.

membengal
12-19-2010, 08:54 AM
Would be promising to see them do something to improve the ballclub.

This.

membengal
12-19-2010, 08:58 AM
And those of you poo-pooing how good Grienke is, well, we will see shortly. I continue to maintain he is a monster coming to the NL, and that this (Grienke to the Brewers) is a terrible development for the Reds in 2011.

Bottom line, our chief rivals to the division have all taken significant steps to improve themselves, and the Reds have stood pat when there are deals to be made that could help. That bothers me, a lot. If it's a money thing, that's on B-Cast. If this team wastes a window, that will also irritate.

guttle11
12-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Disagree with both of these, mth.

Milwaukee's rotation would be above average, certainly. But not the best in the Central. If Garcia is healthy (a huge if, after the massive jump in innings last season), St. Louis beats them across the board (Wainwright > Greinke, Carpenter > Gallardo, Garcia > Marcum, Westbrook > Wolf).

And Cincinnati's staff, if depth and the real-world vagaries of time and injury rear their ugly heads, could be right there as well. If one of the young guns steps up and becomes a legitimate TOR arm, they'd stack up at three of the five spots, IMO, really well.

As to CF, yuck for Gomez and double yuck for Dickerson. No answer (or a really, really bad answer) at SS, and iron gloves everywhere. (There is NO position on the Milwaukee field that averages out a average or better. Not one, according to BIS.)

Too, the Brewer pen is stll pretty rough. Axelford is solidly above average (or at least was in 2010), but the rest of it? Untested, untried, and ineffective.

Pretty much my feeling as well. I'd also add that they probably won't get the same year out of McGehee. On top of that they still have to make a decision on Prince Fielder. If they're 4 games out late in July, behind both the Reds and Cards, what do they do? Giving away Cain and prospects to get Marcum and Greinke...I know their farm system is good, but to then lose Fielder for nothing immediate in return could be too much.

The Brewers are certainly a bigger threat now, but I think still a notch below the Reds and Cards. They were 14 and 5 games back of those teams respectively last year. Anything can happen, but I don't see them making up 14 games. The Reds and Cards certainly didn't get worse.

PuffyPig
12-19-2010, 09:07 AM
The difficulty in preojecting the relative merits between the Cards and Brewers staffs is predicting how good Carpenter will be.

Carpenter certainly has injury concerns, and even when at the top of his game last year, he was a different pitcher than during his best years.

He faded in the second half.

I'm not too convinced he's going to have a normal healthy Carpenter year.

At his best, he's better than Gallardo. But I doubt that Carpenter at his best will be ever seen again over a full season.

lollipopcurve
12-19-2010, 09:13 AM
The only thing tempering my disappointment in losing out on Greinke is that I'm not sure the Reds could have beaten the Brewers with an offer that didn't hurt the major league team somewhere. Make no mistake -- the Brewers also shot a hole or two in their major league club.

The on-the-field Reds got one leg through their window, but they need help getting the other leg up and in. Now it's on the FO and ownership. Other teams aren't hibernating. I really like that the team is going to be willing to go with young homegrown players as a strategy of sorts, but you can't count on the farm for everything. That's a second division strategy.

membengal
12-19-2010, 09:19 AM
The only thing tempering my disappointment in losing out on Greinke is that I'm not sure the Reds could have beaten the Brewers with an offer that didn't hurt the major league team somewhere. Make no mistake -- the Brewers also shot a hole or two in their major league club.

The on-the-field Reds got one leg through their window, but they need help getting the other leg up and in. Now it's on the FO and ownership. Other teams aren't hibernating. I really like that the team is going to be willing to go with young homegrown players as a strategy of sorts, but you can't count on the farm for everything. That's a second division strategy.

Word.

And, the Reds' off-season at this point is putting a LOT more eggs in the Volquez-will-fully-capture-his-preTJ-surgery form than I am comfortable with. And that's coming from a Volquez fan.

Not to mention that their current plan at LF/leadoff is even more inadequate in the face of the improvements made in Milwaukee.

Mario-Rijo
12-19-2010, 09:31 AM
Bad deal for the Reds all around, not only do we not get him we have to face him often now. And I suspect he will be a guy that Milwaukee will try to sign long term so get used to seeing him for a very long time. Sure the Brewers hurt themselves quite a bit defensively with this move but their OF isn't a bad defense and they have enough offense to make things interesting. I for one applaud the Brewers for going for it. They may now be able to deal Fielder to improve SS and CF. I agree though their bullpen is still a big issue but there are enough arms out on the market to help them improve enough to make a real run at the division and screw up our window.

Now we really need to do something to improve this team/offense even if it's just incremental, every little bit helps.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2010, 09:40 AM
The difficulty in preojecting the relative merits between the Cards and Brewers staffs is predicting how good Carpenter will be.

Carpenter certainly has injury concerns, and even when at the top of his game last year, he was a different pitcher than during his best years.

He faded in the second half.

The Cardinals need Westbrook and Lohse to stay healthy to take some of the pressure off their top 3 pitchers. I'm not sure if they can do that. The big problem last year was the Penny and Lohse were both injured, so Wainwright and Carpenter were forced to shoulder the load themselves. Garcia was able to get some rest, but Carp and Waino went every 5 days whether there were days off or not.

PuffyPig
12-19-2010, 09:49 AM
The Cardinals need Westbrook and Lohse to stay healthy to take some of the pressure off their top 3 pitchers. I'm not sure if they can do that. The big problem last year was the Penny and Lohse were both injured, so Wainwright and Carpenter were forced to shoulder the load themselves. Garcia was able to get some rest, but Carp and Waino went every 5 days whether there were days off or not.

Going every 5th day is hardly unusual or shouldering a huge load.

Each of the Cards starters has some sort of injury concern.

I doubt all 5 will survive the season, simply becsue of their history and the usual chances of even previously healthy pitchers staying that way.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2010, 09:50 AM
I suspect he will be a guy that Milwaukee will try to sign long term so get used to seeing him for a very long time.

Sabathia was a guy that Milwaukee tried to sign long term also.

MattyHo4Life
12-19-2010, 09:52 AM
Going every 5th day is hardly unusual or shouldering a huge load.

Each of the Cards starters has some sort of injury concern.

I doubt all 5 will survive the season, simply becsue of their history and the usual chances of even previously healthy pitchers staying that way.

Most teams have the luxury of having a 5 man rotation for most of the year. The Cards essentially had a 4 man rotation for most of last year.

PuffyPig
12-19-2010, 09:57 AM
Sabathia was a guy that Milwaukee tried to sign long term also.

That's a good point, Milwaulkee certainly hasn't been a destination for premium FA's.

Greinke certainly hepls the Brewers, but losing their SS and CF certainly doesn't help thmeselves. That was two positions where they actually had decent defensive players. They are a poor defensie team to be sure, perhaps as bad as the Cards.

Fielder and Weeks are also FA's after this season.

Look the Brewers are certainly a team that is in the mix in 2011, but it's not like they traded futures to get Greinke. They traded two regular players and their lineup just got weaker.

Strikes Out Looking
12-19-2010, 09:58 AM
Going every 5th day is hardly unusual or shouldering a huge load.

Each of the Cards starters has some sort of injury concern.

I doubt all 5 will survive the season, simply becsue of their history and the usual chances of even previously healthy pitchers staying that way.

Carpenter shoulders a much heavier load, because, you know, he has to be able to explain it all to his son. (Couldn't resist).

Cedric
12-19-2010, 10:00 AM
What a complete bummer of an off season, SO FAR. I know that it's early and all that.

The Reds had the talent to get Greinke and certainly the need, IMO. I think people could be shocked in July when they realize this starting pitching depth was just a facade. There are a ton of if's in this rotation and no hammer at the top. The window with Votto is now and I don't trust this rotation at all.

Joseph
12-19-2010, 10:03 AM
I like the SS they traded alot, and Cain was probably a good piece to add because he seems to be the hot property this off season. I could see him becoming something special or becoming just an average to below OFer.

Still, I'm not sure we wanted to give up Drew Stubbs and a couple young arms and minor league prospects. Essentially thats what the Brewers did.

top6
12-19-2010, 10:04 AM
And those of you poo-pooing how good Grienke is, well, we will see shortly. I continue to maintain he is a monster coming to the NL, and that this (Grienke to the Brewers) is a terrible development for the Reds in 2011.

Bottom line, our chief rivals to the division have all taken significant steps to improve themselves, and the Reds have stood pat when there are deals to be made that could help. That bothers me, a lot. If it's a money thing, that's on B-Cast. If this team wastes a window, that will also irritate.

Why exactly should he spend money on a competitive team when the Reds drew 12,000 to a game where they clinched the division?

I'd post more, but I have to go to an NFL game, for a team that won the division last year but couldn't even sell out the season, and actually struggled to sell out the game where it clinched last year.

Seems to me the fans in this city pretty much get the teams they deserve.

I(heart)Freel
12-19-2010, 10:07 AM
I'd have given up Stubbs for Greinke. But that's me. I think Heisey could be a click below him power-wise, pretty even defensively and a click above him with OBP.

It's the other pieces it would have taken that drew the line for me. The Reds need Mes to pan out. He's too close and too needed in the coming years. If KC demanded him in a deal for Greinke, I think I would have walked away too.

Sea Ray
12-19-2010, 10:12 AM
Why exactly should he spend money on a competitive team when the Reds drew 12,000 to a game where they clinched the division?



Where did you dream that number from?

I was at the game. Attendance was over 30K

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201009280.shtml

Cedric
12-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Why exactly should he spend money on a competitive team when the Reds drew 12,000 to a game where they clinched the division?

I'd post more, but I have to go to an NFL game, for a team that won the division last year but couldn't even sell out the season, and actually struggled to sell out the game where it clinched last year.

Seems to me the fans in this city pretty much get the teams they deserve.

Yeah.. Mike Brown really deserves a loyal fan base.. In fact I think Bengal fans are WAY over the top in terms of loyalty.

Until recently the Reds were almost as bad. These businesses need to do better before they whine about fan loyalty.

BCubb2003
12-19-2010, 10:18 AM
So Greinke will be pitching on Opening Day in Cincinnati, just not the way we'd like.

Mario-Rijo
12-19-2010, 10:21 AM
Sabathia was a guy that Milwaukee tried to sign long term also.

Right but this player seems like a much better fit than that one was for Milwaukee. I think Milwaukee is about as perfect a fit for Greinke as they come.

TheNext44
12-19-2010, 10:29 AM
I'd have given up Stubbs for Greinke. But that's me. I think Heisey could be a click below him power-wise, pretty even defensively and a click above him with OBP.

It's the other pieces it would have taken that drew the line for me. The Reds need Mes to pan out. He's too close and too needed in the coming years. If KC demanded him in a deal for Greinke, I think I would have walked away too.

Stubs is and will be twice the player Heisey ever dreams of being. One is at least a league average, probably will be an above league average CF, while the other is a nice 4th outfielder. It's like comparing Jeff Branson to Brandon Phillips.

I still might have traded Stubbs for Geinke, if that's all it took, too. But I agree with you that it would have cost much more and not been worth it.

Jpup
12-19-2010, 10:38 AM
Stubs is and will be twice the player Heisey ever dreams of being. One is at least a league average, probably will be an above league average CF, while the other is a nice 4th outfielder. It's like comparing Jeff Branson to Brandon Phillips.

I still might have traded Stubbs for Geinke, if that's all it took, too. But I agree with you that it would have cost much more and not been worth it.

Stubbs is going to be a monster. I never was too high on him, but after getting to watch him over a full season, I have no doubt he is going to be an All-Star caliber player for the Reds.

Mario-Rijo
12-19-2010, 10:39 AM
Stubs is and will be twice the player Heisey ever dreams of being. One is at least a league average, probably will be an above league average CF, while the other is a nice 4th outfielder. It's like comparing Jeff Branson to Brandon Phillips.

I still might have traded Stubbs for Geinke, if that's all it took, too. But I agree with you that it would have cost much more and not been worth it.

I disagree with your assessment of Heisey. If he gets his mechanics worked out he has 20/20 ability with solid defensive skills all the way around. And I think he is a guy who will always be improving thru his prime years. Sure Stubbs ceiling is far higher and so is his likely floor but both need further development and I like Heiseys chances of reaching his ceiling than I do Drew. Which in the end makes them much more comparable. I still think it's like a Cameron vs. Kotsay type of argument in the end. Cameron clearly more talented, Kotsay more skilled and well rounded, both quite productive.

top6
12-19-2010, 10:42 AM
Where did you dream that number from?

I was at the game. Attendance was over 30K

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201009280.shtml

i think i meant to say 12,000 empty seats.

actually, i was at that game as well, which makes my mistake all the dumber.

kaldaniels
12-19-2010, 11:00 AM
Sigh ...

The division gets better while Walt does absolutely nothing.

Sigh....

Can't we wait until the offseason is over before we complain about Walt's lack of moves. The Brewers gave up a good bit prospect-wise...for the Reds to top/match that would have been tough.

_Sir_Charles_
12-19-2010, 11:22 AM
Sure is a lot of depressing posts around here. Reds young kids are getting one year older and have one more year of MLB experience under their belts. Bruce signed for the long haul. Decent chance of locking up Cueto & Votto for multi-years too. We've given more time for the catchers & SS's to develop in the minors instead of dealing them away to fill a slot that doesn't need to be filled (starting pitching).

Yes, the Brewers added a top-notch arm...but severely sacrificed on defense. They're still below the Reds IMO, considerably so.

Yes, the Cubs added Carlos Pena...*yawn*. They're still second division.

Yes, the Cards added Berkman & Theriot...*double yawn*. 5 years ago, I'd be shaking in my boots. Not now. No real improvement IMO.

Yes, the Astros added Bill Hall & Clint Barmes...*falls over asleep*. With their pitching, it won't matter WHO they add. They're bottom feeders.

Yes, the Pirates added...oh wait, it doesn't matter who they added. It's the Pirates.

So sure, you could argue that some have made small steps forward at the expense of some small steps backwards. But I seriously don't see much to worry me at this point. The Reds core is so young that time itself is a plus for us. Now if you look OUTSIDE our division...different story, but for a club that just had it's first winning season in a decade...I'd keep the focus small and on OUR division.

Reds/Flyers Fan
12-19-2010, 11:28 AM
Sigh....

Can't we wait until the offseason is over before we complain about Walt's lack of moves. The Brewers gave up a good bit prospect-wise...for the Reds to top/match that would have been tough.

Sooner or later he's going to have to pull the trigger on something. We heard they really wanted Cliff Lee last summer, that they were a perfect fit for Greinke this winter, and nothing. We all saw what happened in the playoffs without a hammer.

But hey, Miguel Cairo is coming back for 2 more years!

kaldaniels
12-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Sooner or later he's going to have to pull the trigger on something. We heard they really wanted Cliff Lee last summer, that they were a perfect fit for Greinke this winter, and nothing. We all saw what happened in the playoffs without a hammer.

But hey, Miguel Cairo is coming back for 2 more years!

And Jay Bruce for 7.

I(heart)Freel
12-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Sooner or later he's going to have to pull the trigger on something. We heard they really wanted Cliff Lee last summer, that they were a perfect fit for Greinke this winter, and nothing. We all saw what happened in the playoffs without a hammer.

But hey, Miguel Cairo is coming back for 2 more years!

Can't fault Walt+Co. for Lee last summer. They put up a good offer. Seattle went for Texas over Reds. Takes two to tango.

Let's see if Walt says something similar about this deal.

As disappointing as it is right now, in the end, if the cost is too great, he's doing his job to NOT make the deal.

kaldaniels
12-19-2010, 11:35 AM
Walt going 0-2 on acquiring Greinke and Lee does not make him a negligent GM in my eyes.

alexad
12-19-2010, 11:37 AM
ZG has a no trade clause to the Brewers. So he has to appove the trade. I have not seen anywhere where he has approved this trade. My other point is the off season is still young. Walt usually gets what he wants. Until the season officially starts I am not concerned. The Reds have a need. Give Walt time to get it done

Last thought. The Reds need a 5 th outfielder. Would Austin Kearns fit that bill?

Mario-Rijo
12-19-2010, 12:21 PM
ZG has a no trade clause to the Brewers. So he has to appove the trade. I have not seen anywhere where he has approved this trade. My other point is the off season is still young. Walt usually gets what he wants. Until the season officially starts I am not concerned. The Reds have a need. Give Walt time to get it done

Last thought. The Reds need a 5 th outfielder. Would Austin Kearns fit that bill?

Wow not sure how I missed that, if true pretty interesting. Certainly changes my outlook on the trade even if it does go thru, would have sworn he would have liked playing there.

Caveat Emperor
12-19-2010, 12:22 PM
See: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87106