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Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:18 PM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."

I mean, I'm not asking for a seven-player trade each day of the meetings, but this is borderline ridiculous. I think I have done more to try to improve the Reds team today than the Reds have. That is sad, especially on what is supposed to be the busiest week of the offseason.

Have patience. It's only one day. Etc. Etc.

I just wanted to throw this out there for cathartic reasons. In lieu of complaining, I'll suggest three very doable deals (based off of media reports) that the Reds SHOULD be talking about:

1. Trade Francisco Cordero and (insert your least favorite SP here) to the Mets for Jose Reyes.
2. Trade Yonder Alonso, Chris Heisey and Ramon Hernandez to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp.
3. Trade Yonder Alonso and Chris Heisey to the D-Rays for BJ Upton.

1. Mets are shopping Reyes and need starting and relief pitching help.
2. Dodgers may be shedding salary with the lawsuit settlement and Kemp has fallen out of favor. Loney is on the block, Martin is out of town, and they'd need a replacement for Kemp.
3. The D-Rays have a need to get cheaper and a gaping hole at 1B.

Reyes and/or Upton could lead off. Upton and/or Kemp would both be great defensive LF. Kemp would bring speed AND power to the lineup. Thoughts?

Brutus
12-07-2010, 08:22 PM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."

I mean, I'm not asking for a seven-player trade each day of the meetings, but this is borderline ridiculous. I think I have done more to try to improve the Reds team today than the Reds have. That is sad, especially on what is supposed to be the busiest week of the offseason.

Have patience. It's only one day. Etc. Etc.

I just wanted to throw this out there for cathartic reasons.

I think it's reprehensible if it's true. But I also know that Jocketty may or may not be disguising his intentions.

westofyou
12-07-2010, 08:25 PM
At the 1957 meetings both the Cards and the Reds didn't do much, right before they split the Reds GM (Gabe Paul) pulled Bing Devine aside and said, "We both haven't done anything, let's get together, pound out a deal at least to say we did something."

That's how the Reds ended up losing Curt Flood.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:27 PM
At the 1957 meetings both the Cards and the Reds didn't do much, right before they split the Reds GM (Gabe Paul) pulled Bing Devine aside and said, "We both haven't done anything, let's get together, pound out a deal at least to say we did something."

That's how the Reds ended up losing Curt Flood.

I'm not saying you have to do something, I'm saying you should at least be talking and exploring what's out there.

jojo
12-07-2010, 08:28 PM
GM speak probably shouldn't be given a lot of credence this time of year.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:30 PM
I think it's reprehensible if it's true. But I also know that Jocketty may or may not be disguising his intentions.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding how this quote could possibly be productive. It's one thing to not say much or be purposely vague (ie Krivsky) regarding who you're talking to. But to say that we've had zero conversations at all does nothing but cause fans like us to get disgusted and lose interest in the meetings. Isn't the objective of the offseason to build interest, not stick your middle finger up at fans who enjoy following this stuff?

Sea Ray
12-07-2010, 08:30 PM
RZ loves trades and all but really it's no big deal. So what if a day went by without discussing trades?

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:32 PM
What would happen if you said publicly I did zero work today at the office during one of the most important days of the year for your company? That is essentially what he is saying during one of the biggest days of the offseason. Again even if true, why would you say it, at least, in those words?

jojo
12-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Isn't the objective of the offseason to build interest

No. The objective of the off season is to build a ball club. Jocketty really isn't responsible for titillating us even if mlb has latched onto the notion of titillating fans as a marketing ploy.

jojo
12-07-2010, 08:36 PM
What would happen if you said publicly I did zero work today at the office during one of the most important days of the year for your company? That is essentially what he is saying during one of the biggest days of the offseason. Again even if true, why would you say it, at least, in those words?

Maybe he wants you to think that he wants you to think that he wants you to think that he hasn't done anything?

traderumor
12-07-2010, 08:36 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding how this quote could possibly be productive. It's one thing to not say much or be purposely vague (ie Krivsky) regarding who you're talking to. But to say that we've had zero conversations at all does nothing but cause fans like us to get disgusted and lose interest in the meetings. Isn't the objective of the offseason to build interest, not stick your middle finger up at fans who enjoy following this stuff?I think the objective of the offseason is to let players rest and recharge. I don't think it was ever meant to be a spectator sport.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:37 PM
No. The objective of the off season is to build a ball club. Jocketty really isn't responsible for titillating us even if mlb has latched onto the notion of titillating fans as a marketing ploy.

And to build interest, I guarantee you that. Clearly you don't have much of an understanding of the business element to running a ballclub.

Moreover, how does "having zero converstions with any agents or clubs" help build a ball club during one of the busiest times of the year.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:39 PM
I think the objective of the offseason is to let players rest and recharge. I don't think it was ever meant to be a spectator sport.

Really? Then why does every major sport now televise their draft? Does the MLB Network (run by MLB) shut off for the duration of the offseason?

Joseph
12-07-2010, 08:40 PM
I love trade rumors, I love speculation, but I think you've gone way overboard saying its borderline ridiculous or irresponsible.

It's one day. It's one day through the filter of a tight lipped GM further diluted by a media source who tends to sensationalize even the most trivial of things.

Don't beat your head against the wall over it and certainly don't whack Walt over the noggin because of a throw away comment delivered in vacation land.

pedro
12-07-2010, 08:45 PM
Just because they spent one day not discussing trades means just that. They worked on other stuff. Big deal. Spring training doesn't start for four months. Frankly, if all they did was sit around and ponder trades, THAT would be irresponsible.

jojo
12-07-2010, 08:46 PM
And to build interest, I guarantee you that. Clearly you don't have much of an understanding of the business element to running a ballclub.

Moreover, how does "having zero converstions with any agents or clubs" help build a ball club during one of the busiest times of the year.

In my complete lack of understanding about the business of baseball, i'm wallowing in the delusional belief that GMs often say things because of hidden agendas pertaining to things that we are not privy to especially during a high stakes period such as the winter meetings where tens of millions of dollars are on the line....

That's just my delusion though.... :cool:

jojo
12-07-2010, 08:48 PM
Just because they spent one day not discussing trades means just that. They worked on other stuff. Big deal. Spring training doesn't start for four months. Frankly, if all they did was sit around and ponder trades, THAT would be irresponsible.

Maybe they spent the day texting rather than talking? :p:

Red Leader
12-07-2010, 08:48 PM
I think there's a lot of GM's that did absolutely nothing today. The whole market right now is waiting to see what happens with Cliff Lee, and Cliff Lee is not ready to sign anywhere yet. He's holding up a lot of things. Once he signs, I'm expecting a domino effect...Carl Crawford doesn't want to sign yet because he wants to get the Yankees involved in bidding. The Yankees can't get involved until they know what Lee is going to do. The Angels can't do a whole lot until they know what Crawford is going to do...it is a total bottleneck right now. Once some of those bigger named players sign with new teams, then it will be known who's available, who needs to dump salaries, who needs to be moved because they are now blocked, etc. Unfortunately, there just isn't a lot to do right now, unless you want to hear a ground breaking minor league signing for some 38 yr old pitcher on the rebound that a club is taking a flier on.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 08:55 PM
In my complete lack of understanding about the business of baseball, i'm wallowing in the delusional belief that GMs often say things because of hidden agendas pertaining to things that we are not privy to especially during a high stakes period such as the winter meetings where tens of millions of dollars are on the line....

That's just my delusion though.... :cool:

And again, a big part of the purpose for any high officer (including the President and GM) of a team is to build interest. I'm not saying that he should do anything that might sabotage the actual building of the team or any of the inherent dollars on the line. But making a comment such as that cannot be construed as anything other than counter-productive to building interest.

A mountain is being made of a molehill on this thread, and I am in a large part responsible. Obviously, this quote is neither the beginning or the end of the world. I was just venting a little bit of frustration with a single soundbite, and suggested some alternative deals to pass the time.

westofyou
12-07-2010, 09:11 PM
Frankly I could care less what the "other sports" do.

I'm a baseball fan.

The key to the winter meetings is the word "meetings", if it was a trade or die scenario it would be the Winter trading period.

kaldaniels
12-07-2010, 09:21 PM
Think of the Seinfeld episode where George interviews with the Mets...

We're not talking, we're just......talking.

I(heart)Freel
12-07-2010, 09:22 PM
And again, a big part of the purpose for any high officer (including the President and GM) of a team is to build interest. I'm not saying that he should do anything that might sabotage the actual building of the team or any of the inherent dollars on the line. But making a comment such as that cannot be construed as anything other than counter-productive to building interest.

A mountain is being made of a molehill on this thread, and I am in a large part responsible. Obviously, this quote is neither the beginning or the end of the world. I was just venting a little bit of frustration with a single soundbite, and suggested some alternative deals to pass the time.

The Reds sold more tickets for the 2011 season on Sept. 28 of this year than they will with all their moves/no-moves/rumors this off-season.

klw
12-07-2010, 09:31 PM
I'm not surprised the Reds didn't talk to anyone today as they are probably waiting to hear back from Lee on that 7 year offer they made last night. :);)
well no one thought they would make a play for Chapman and they did try to get Lee over the summer.

johngalt
12-07-2010, 09:45 PM
What would happen if you said publicly I did zero work today at the office during one of the most important days of the year for your company? That is essentially what he is saying during one of the biggest days of the offseason. Again even if true, why would you say it, at least, in those words?

You're making the mistake a lot of fans make in thinking these meetings are considered by every team & GM to be "one of the most important days of the year" for their company. Some GMs love wheeling and dealing at these meetings and making splashes and getting their names out there. Others see it as a necessary evil of the offseason and can't wait for it to be over. And of course a lot fall somewhere in between.

The purpose of the meetings isn't to make moves. That's only a by-product of having so many officials, agents, etc. in one area at one time. It's not the intent of the meetings.

RedLegSuperStar
12-07-2010, 10:12 PM
I get where your coming from.. I agree it could possibly GM talk.. But I am reminded when told after the World Series had ended that this team would have money to spend. That the team needed to upgrade it's leadoff position. That Miguel Cairo and Arthur Rhodes were teams top priority. Instead we resign Arroyo and Gomes. I have no problem with that but don't voice what you plan on doing and not do it. Don't say one thing and then come out today and say the team will look internally at a leadoff candidate. Don't say you have money to spend and then say your at budget. Especially when Bronson is deferring his salary.. Something mind you he said he wouldn't do. I want to see this ballclub improve and use some of it's pieces to build on '10 success. Use the cash received by ticket sales and revenue to solidify this winning tradition. Don't be like the Bengals and be good one season and horrific the next.

Unassisted
12-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Mark Sheldon's tweet from today (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/12245881327718400) is probably the best response to this:


Don't judge success or fail of mtgs by no activity thru 2 days. Talks/meetings can happen 365 days a yr. That's what cellphones are for.

RedsManRick
12-07-2010, 10:32 PM
It sounds like some people are confusing operations for marketing. Building a team and marketing it are two different things. Walt is not the type who let's the tail wag the dog. Deal making is a lot of hurry up and wait.

BCubb2003
12-07-2010, 11:00 PM
I hear a guy from the Royals asked if there was an ice machine on this floor and Walt wouldn't tell him.

Heath
12-07-2010, 11:08 PM
I hear a guy from the Royals asked if there was an ice machine on this floor and Walt wouldn't tell him.

Reckless speculation will get you a vacation from this board, sonny.

redsmetz
12-07-2010, 11:27 PM
You're making the mistake a lot of fans make in thinking these meetings are considered by every team & GM to be "one of the most important days of the year" for their company. Some GMs love wheeling and dealing at these meetings and making splashes and getting their names out there. Others see it as a necessary evil of the offseason and can't wait for it to be over. And of course a lot fall somewhere in between.

The purpose of the meetings isn't to make moves. That's only a by-product of having so many officials, agents, etc. in one area at one time. It's not the intent of the meetings.

And actually there's a whole Trade Show aspect to the meetings. One of my clients goes every year and makes lots of contacts and subsequently makes sales. They manufacture the waste receptacles you see at GABP and other such venues. This is a huge meeting for them. In fact, they'll call me sometimes to find out how much freight will be to such and such a city. Last year, they shipped a truckload up to Wrigley and I had to think whether a 53' trailer could get in there (it could) and I even recalled from my walk around the park where the receiving dock was, etc. They've sold to the Mets, the Yankees, Dodgers and some others. It's a big trade show.

Chip R
12-07-2010, 11:38 PM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."

I mean, I'm not asking for a seven-player trade each day of the meetings, but this is borderline ridiculous. I think I have done more to try to improve the Reds team today than the Reds have. That is sad, especially on what is supposed to be the busiest week of the offseason.

Have patience. It's only one day. Etc. Etc.

I just wanted to throw this out there for cathartic reasons. In lieu of complaining, I'll suggest three very doable deals (based off of media reports) that the Reds SHOULD be talking about:

1. Trade Francisco Cordero and (insert your least favorite SP here) to the Mets for Jose Reyes.
2. Trade Yonder Alonso, Chris Heisey and Ramon Hernandez to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp.
3. Trade Yonder Alonso and Chris Heisey to the D-Rays for BJ Upton.

1. Mets are shopping Reyes and need starting and relief pitching help.
2. Dodgers may be shedding salary with the lawsuit settlement and Kemp has fallen out of favor. Loney is on the block, Martin is out of town, and they'd need a replacement for Kemp.
3. The D-Rays have a need to get cheaper and a gaping hole at 1B.

Reyes and/or Upton could lead off. Upton and/or Kemp would both be great defensive LF. Kemp would bring speed AND power to the lineup. Thoughts?

Yeah, Walt sure doesn't know what he's doing. He's only won a world championship, a few pennants and division championships including 1 this year. But let's not let facts get in the way of hyperbole.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 11:45 PM
Yeah, Walt sure doesn't know what he's doing. He's only won a world championship, a few pennants and division championships including 1 this year. But let's not let facts get in the way of hyperbole.

And isn't THIS a little bit of hyperbole on YOUR part?!?

I was just venting a little frustration over a small quote that Walt made, not saying the guy is an incompetent moron who has never done anything right and should be fired.

Chip R
12-07-2010, 11:47 PM
And isn't THIS a little bit of hyperbole on YOUR part?!?

You're the expert.

Benihana
12-07-2010, 11:54 PM
You're the expert.

Hmm, are you attacking another poster rather than their thoughts?

This thread is not headed in the right direction. I intended to stir up some trade talk (see original post) not to get in a shouting match about Walt's past achievements. Mods, please feel free to close the thread.

nemesis
12-08-2010, 12:00 AM
Mark Sheldon's tweet from today (http://twitter.com/#!/m_sheldon/status/12245881327718400) is probably the best response to this:

Don't judge success or fail of mtgs by no activity thru 2 days. Talks/meetings can happen 365 days a yr. That's what cellphones are for.

Sure. But some of the players that are available now, that could make a real difference in the upcoming season, may not be available in 2 more days. That's why it's a must to get out there and make haste.

Spitball
12-08-2010, 12:45 AM
I'm just glad the Reds are not looking to gamble on Jeff Francis and Brandon Webb. They are the types of names we recognize but are really just gambles at hopes and dreams of affordable improvement. The Reds are now at the point where the most beneficial moves will take calculated and measured steps rather than desperate action.

The times they are a changin'. The Reds have decent young and inexpensive talent. That is a gift at this pont. They need to develop that inexpensive talent...in my opinion.

Will M
12-08-2010, 01:27 AM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."

I mean, I'm not asking for a seven-player trade each day of the meetings, but this is borderline ridiculous. I think I have done more to try to improve the Reds team today than the Reds have. That is sad, especially on what is supposed to be the busiest week of the offseason.

Have patience. It's only one day. Etc. Etc.

I just wanted to throw this out there for cathartic reasons. In lieu of complaining, I'll suggest three very doable deals (based off of media reports) that the Reds SHOULD be talking about:

1. Trade Francisco Cordero and (insert your least favorite SP here) to the Mets for Jose Reyes.
2. Trade Yonder Alonso, Chris Heisey and Ramon Hernandez to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp.
3. Trade Yonder Alonso and Chris Heisey to the D-Rays for BJ Upton.

1. Mets are shopping Reyes and need starting and relief pitching help.
2. Dodgers may be shedding salary with the lawsuit settlement and Kemp has fallen out of favor. Loney is on the block, Martin is out of town, and they'd need a replacement for Kemp.
3. The D-Rays have a need to get cheaper and a gaping hole at 1B.

Reyes and/or Upton could lead off. Upton and/or Kemp would both be great defensive LF. Kemp would bring speed AND power to the lineup. Thoughts?

count me as one sympathetic to your pain. i realize we aren't going to get Crawford or Lee. however, there are trades that could work for both teams involved that could help the Reds. there are some 2nd/3rd tier free agents who could help the team.

i think the problem is:
1) despite spending very little this offseason the team is 'at budget'. its tough to win with an $80M payroll.
2) if the team is at budget the only deals that could help are budget neutral trades. aka unless we can deal Cordero we won't be making any deals
3) I suspect Walt wants to try & 'bottom feed' again in late January and February. a problem with this plan is that 2010-2011 is looking like a more typical offseason than the last 2 years which had suppressed salaries

Blitz Dorsey
12-08-2010, 02:35 AM
The OP lost me at "Go Blue."

37-7.

And it's VERY early in the offseason. I have very little patience, but apparently I have more than the OP. At this time last year, we hadn't signed Chapman, hadn't signed Cabrera, hadn't re-signed Gomes, etc. I've learned to trust Jocketty. He might not move at the speed of sound, but he gets the job done eventually.

traderumor
12-08-2010, 03:53 AM
Really? Then why does every major sport now televise their draft? Does the MLB Network (run by MLB) shut off for the duration of the offseason?The winter meetings are not equivalent to televising a draft. It is CSPAN, with even less action. I, thankfully, have other duties, obligations and interests that do not have me hitting "refresh" waiting on a snippet of news from the winter meetings. But then, I watch very little of things like the draft, either.

jojo
12-08-2010, 08:30 AM
And isn't THIS a little bit of hyperbole on YOUR part?!?

I was just venting a little frustration over a small quote that Walt made, not saying the guy is an incompetent moron who has never done anything right and should be fired.

To answer the question poised by the thread, venting is generally considered noise so yes this thread is borderline irresponsible.... :cool:

Strikes Out Looking
12-08-2010, 08:35 AM
"Irresponsible" leadership of the Reds is defined by the Carl Linder era. Publicly stating that you didn't talk to any agents or other teams during one day at the winter meetings only shows that you didn't talk to any agents or other teams during one day at the winter meetings.

Roy Tucker
12-08-2010, 08:49 AM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."



This is GM-speak for "we spent the day at the local strip club getting drunk and cavorting with the ladies".

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 10:12 AM
Twitter sucks...here is Fay's post on his blog. Note how it goes further than what was said on Twitter.


“We’ve had zero discussions with agents or other clubs today,” Jocketty said, “a couple phone calls is about it. We spent the day talking with our group about what we have to do. I think we’re at a point where we really like our club. We like our depth with pitching. We like our everyday lineup. Based on what our payroll is we’ll go with our young guys on the bench. That’s kind of the way it’s going to be.”



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/12/07/9686/

Benihana
12-08-2010, 10:43 AM
The winter meetings are not equivalent to televising a draft. It is CSPAN, with even less action. I, thankfully, have other duties, obligations and interests that do not have me hitting "refresh" waiting on a snippet of news from the winter meetings. But then, I watch very little of things like the draft, either.

And yet you've chosen "traderumor" to be the moniker that you go by :rolleyes:

kaldaniels
12-08-2010, 11:03 AM
While Jocketty's quote surely warrants discussion, it is naive to pretend that the title of this thread is not hostile in nature. Had that been dialed down a notch I don't think all the bickering would be going on.

Kc61
12-08-2010, 11:42 AM
The impression that the Reds are giving is that they plan to stick with their current team with little or no change. That they can't find an available lead off hitter who would help the club. That they intend to go with a young bench because the payroll is so tight.

These are all based on public statements the club or the GM has made.

As a fan, I find these comments discouraging. I can understand that sometimes it is "too soon" for a club to go after quality veteran players. But it's not "too soon" for the Reds. They are poised to compete and now is the time to fill the remaining needs.

I'm not advocating a huge spending spree. But the idea that the Reds' only interest this off season is re-signing Cairo and maybe Rhodes is insufficient.

Perhaps Walt is posturing. If so, fine, we'll see soon enough.

But forgive me if I'm disappointed in the public stance.

traderumor
12-08-2010, 11:44 AM
And yet you've chosen "traderumor" to be the moniker that you go by :rolleyes:Of course, you don't know that name is rooted in sarcasm from my first time on message boards right before I joined here at the St. Louis Post Dispatch board, where they had wild, lopsided trade rumors as the most frequent fare on that board at the time, so that was on my mind when I joined their board. They directed me here as a better fit for a Reds fan, I joined and kept the name.

traderumor
12-08-2010, 11:50 AM
The impression that the Reds are giving is that they plan to stick with their current team with little or no change. That they can't find an available lead off hitter who would help the club. That they intend to go with a young bench because the payroll is so tight.

These are all based on public statements the club or the GM has made.

As a fan, I find these comments discouraging. I can understand that sometimes it is "too soon" for a club to go after quality veteran players. But it's not "too soon" for the Reds. They are poised to compete and now is the time to fill the remaining needs.

I'm not advocating a huge spending spree. But the idea that the Reds' only interest this off season is re-signing Cairo and maybe Rhodes is insufficient.

Perhaps Walt is posturing. If so, fine, we'll see soon enough.

But forgive me if I'm disappointed in the public stance.That they haven't accomplished a goal doesn't mean that it isn't still a goal. It isn't like they can place an ad to fill the positions and are dragging their feet in getting it done. Transactions normally follow a domino effect pattern. If a viable leadoff candidate is not available today, he may become available tomorrow because of a seemingly unrelated transaction.

Kc61
12-08-2010, 12:03 PM
That they haven't accomplished a goal doesn't mean that it isn't still a goal. It isn't like they can place an ad to fill the positions and are dragging their feet in getting it done. Transactions normally follow a domino effect pattern. If a viable leadoff candidate is not available today, he may become available tomorrow because of a seemingly unrelated transaction.

When a team's front office and beat writers say that it is not meeting, there is nobody available to fill the need, it plans to go with kids on the bench, it is at payroll, and similar comments, this causes me, as a fan, to become discouraged. It leads me to believe that the team isn't improving.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 12:13 PM
When a team's front office and beat writers say that it is not meeting, there is nobody available to fill the need, it plans to go with kids on the bench, it is at payroll, and similar comments, this causes me, as a fan, to become discouraged. It leads me to believe that the team isn't improving.

A team doesn't have to be in a constant state of flux to be improving.

If Jay Bruce gives us a consistent year, if the pitching continues to move forward, if Stubbs continues to grow, if Janish shows that his success last year at the plate wasn't a fluke, all of these things could easily help the team get to the next level.

Walt has stated that he wants a leadoff man...I am sure that they will be in the mix if one is available. If the price is right, I have no doubt that a trade will be made.

We went through this last year...everyone wanted Walt to be wheeling and dealing every day, to be in on every name, to be holding press conference and personally stickying threads on here letting everyone know of his plan. I agree, it is nice to hear something from time to time to show that these guys are in the mix and I think we have heard just that. But after going through the 2010 season, I can't see how anyone thinks that the FO is not looking for ways to improve.

Kc61
12-08-2010, 12:25 PM
A team doesn't have to be in a constant state of flux to be improving.

We went through this last year...everyone wanted Walt to be wheeling and dealing every day, to be in on every name, to be holding press conference and personally stickying threads on here letting everyone know of his plan. I agree, it is nice to hear something from time to time to show that these guys are in the mix and I think we have heard just that. But after going through the 2010 season, I can't see how anyone thinks that the FO is not looking for ways to improve.

Let's not overstate things. Nobody wants a constant state of flux, wheeling and dealing every day. Nobody is saying that.

But to improve in baseball, generally, you need a plan to fill the holes. A leadoff hitter. An everyday shortstop. These are needs the Reds have. They have basically admitted that they have these needs.

If their plan is to fill these needs with non-tendered guys just before spring training, I'm dissatisfied.

If their plan is to sit back and hope a leadoff hitter emerges from the young kids - with no obvious candidate - I'm dissatisfied.

If Janish is their shortstop with no veteran in the mix, I question that. I'm not sure Janish/Cozart handles this key position without veteran support.

Most teams would go out and try to fill these needs. I'd like to see that.

backbencher
12-08-2010, 12:31 PM
I think it's reprehensible if it's true.

"Reprehensible"? Wow. What words do you use for conduct that's actually bad?

backbencher
12-08-2010, 12:36 PM
But to improve in baseball, generally, you need a plan to fill the holes.

Allowing youngsters to grow is a plan.

Gauging the market, finding bargains at the end (Gomes, Cabrera in years past) is a plan.

Playing hard to get, especially when sitting on pitching depth, is a plan.

Seeing how the team plays in the spring, or even into the season, before trading away assets is a plan.

Seeing how much cash is needed for Votto and Bruce before spending it elsewhere is a plan.

Getting a read on Grandal before trading Mesoraco is a plan. So is the converse.

Assessing Edmonds' health (and a Gomes/Edmonds platoon) before dedicating more cash to LF is a plan.

Giving the media quotes about doing nothing, even while assistant GMs burn up the phone lines, is a plan.

Kc61
12-08-2010, 12:46 PM
Allowing youngsters to grow is a plan.

Gauging the market, finding bargains at the end (Gomes, Cabrera in years past) is a plan.

Playing hard to get, especially when sitting on pitching depth, is a plan.

Seeing how the team plays in the spring, or even into the season, before trading away assets is a plan.

Seeing how much cash is needed for Votto and Bruce before spending it elsewhere is a plan.

Getting a read on Grandal before trading Mesoraco is a plan. So is the converse.

Assessing Edmonds' health (and a Gomes/Edmonds platoon) before dedicating more cash to LF is a plan.

Giving the media quotes about doing nothing, even while assistant GMs burn up the phone lines, is a plan.

Going out and acquiring quality talent to fill your obvious holes is also a plan, and the one I'd prefer to see followed.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 12:48 PM
Going out and acquiring quality talent to fill your obvious holes is also a plan, and the one I'd prefer to see followed.

The offseason isn't over. If Jocketty is sitting there, acting like a lunatic, calling anyone and everyone looking for a leadoff hitter, he'd come across as a bit desperate.

He has a surplus of pitching. He is telling the market that he is fine the way he is, though he wouldn't mind talking leadoff guy. Odds are he'll get one before the offseason is over, if there is one to be had and if the price is in the ballpark.

pedro
12-08-2010, 12:58 PM
YouTube - Kung Fu - grasshopper dialog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCyJRXvPNRo)

Jpup
12-08-2010, 12:58 PM
I think Jocketty's quote could be also understood as, if we can trade Cordero, we could probably do some other things.

HokieRed
12-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Want improvement next year? Here are three names to focus on far more important than whoever ends up at SS or in LF: Bailey, Volquez, Chapman.

backbencher
12-08-2010, 01:34 PM
Want improvement next year? Here are three names to focus on far more important than whoever ends up at SS or in LF: Bailey, Volquez, Chapman.

Quoted for truth.

The Reds conceivably could close down their offseason and still be the most improved team in baseball.

Not counting on it, of course - almost every hitter other than Bruce is a strong candidate for regression - but it's possible.

Benihana
12-08-2010, 01:40 PM
I think Jocketty's quote could be also understood as, if we can trade Cordero, we could probably do some other things.

Don't you have to have conversations with other teams in order to (find out whether you can) trade Cordero?

Benihana
12-08-2010, 01:43 PM
Quoted for truth.

The Reds conceivably could close down their offseason and still be the most improved team in baseball.

Not counting on it, of course - almost every hitter other than Bruce is a strong candidate for regression - but it's possible.

Also bolded for truth. While I am very excited about the prospect of RA improving with the young pitching staff, I am similarly concerned for the RS regressing. While Bruce and Stubbs could/should continue to improve, I am fully expecting production from at least 3B, SS, and C to regress.

Heath
12-08-2010, 01:45 PM
http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/february052009/chicken-little2.jpg

Puffy
12-08-2010, 01:59 PM
Its December freakin 8th.

My goodness you people are amazing. December 8th. The season is 4 months away. F.O.U.R.

Ghosts of 1990
12-08-2010, 02:04 PM
If so little goes on at the winter meetings I ask two questions:

1) Why are managers, GM's, and MULTIPLE beat writers from every major league team present. As well as current and past players (Sheffield and McGriff for example).

2) Why do so many other teams use this few day period to get big deals done as far as improving their team?

pedro
12-08-2010, 02:06 PM
If so little goes on at the winter meetings I ask two questions:


2) Why do so many other teams use this few day period to get big deals done as far as improving their team?

um... how many big deals have there been so far? how many teams are there?

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 02:17 PM
um... how many big deals have there been so far? how many teams are there?

Yep, Cincy had more division titles last year than big deals made at the 2009 Winter Meetings.

Listen to Erick and Parrish.

http://cutcutpaste.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/epmd.jpg?w=350&h=349

Cedric
12-08-2010, 02:26 PM
It's very early in the MLB off season. I don't think the market really heats up until the big signings are done with. It's kinda a traffic jam until Crawford and Lee sign.

Red Leader
12-08-2010, 02:31 PM
Yep, Cincy had more division titles last year than big deals made at the 2009 Winter Meetings.

Listen to Erick and Parrish.

http://cutcutpaste.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/epmd.jpg?w=350&h=349

Always calm under pressure, no need to act ill...
Listen when I tell you boy, you gots to chill

Benihana
12-08-2010, 02:34 PM
There is a disconnect going on here, if that's not apparent to some.

The initial post was made to express disappointment that the Reds GM would say publicly that the team had ZERO conversations with players or agents at the winter meetings, not that a deal wasn't consummated. Even if there are no trades, signings, etc. made the entire offseason, I would expect a team to have conversations at the largest gathering of the offseason, as a matter of due diligence if nothing else. Furthermore, I was questioning the logic behind a GM telling the media that they've had zero conversations with any team or agent.

Obviously, it got entirely blown out of proportion, and some people are interpreting this thread as one big complaint that several moves haven't been made already. Not that at all. It's more an off-the-cuff reaction to a single soundbite, and it's not that big of a deal.

This message has been approved by the Original Poster.

Red Leader
12-08-2010, 02:43 PM
There is a disconnect going on here, if that's not apparent to some.

The initial post was made to express disappointment that the Reds GM would say publicly that the team had ZERO conversations with players or agents at the winter meetings, not that a deal wasn't consummated. Even if there are no trades, signings, etc. made the entire offseason, I would expect a team to have conversations at the largest gathering of the offseason, as a matter of due diligence if nothing else. Furthermore, I was questioning the logic behind a GM telling the media that they've had zero conversations with any team or agent.

Obviously, it got entirely blown out of proportion, and some people are interpreting this thread as one big complaint that several moves haven't been made already. Not that at all. It's more an off-the-cuff reaction to a single soundbite, and it's not that big of a deal.

This message has been approved by the Original Poster.

I think some people have tried to answer your original question, Beni.
I understood where you were coming from and why you felt the need to vent.
All I've tried to do is get you to realize it's not that big of a deal. It's one quote from one day. There are a number of possibilties as to why a GM would have no contact with other GM's or agents, almost all of which are not harmful or irresponsible. 1) Walt could have decided yesterday was the day he wanted to gather all of his internal troops together and focused on getting them all to agree on one vision. 2) Walt could be waiting on a few names to come off the board to see what is going to become available. If he's already had conversations with his Option B and Option C players, no need to talk to anyone else until it is known if Option A is available, right? There are a number of possibilities as to why he wouldn't talk to other GMs and agents on one day. As for why he felt the need to tell that to the media...does a good poker player tip his hand? Is he dealing from a stronger position if other GMs know that he doesn't "have" to deal to improve his team?

REDREAD
12-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Jocketty on #reds: "We've had zero conversations with agents or clubs today."

I mean, I'm not asking for a seven-player trade each day of the meetings, but this is borderline ridiculous.

I don't think it's irresponsible at all.
Walt took a ton of flack for "sitting on his hands" in the past, but ended up delivering our first division title in a long time with his methodic approach.

Now, I agree, it's not quite as exciting to watch as Bowden and Wayne's constant roster shuffling and rearranging deck chairs, but it's pretty harsh to say that Walt is being irresponsible, based on one comment. For all we know, that comment was taken out of context.. Some reporter was trying to get a rumor to print, and Walt might've just said that to end the conversation. If Walt said "Well, I talked to the Hendricks and Boras today", the reporter would press for more info and start spreading rumors.

Edit: Now that I've read the whole thread, I hope I don't across as too harsh Benihana.
Walt has a history of finding the pieces he needs, he did it last year, and with the Cards. I have confidence in him.

BRM
12-08-2010, 02:56 PM
Obviously, it got entirely blown out of proportion

Shocking that something like this would happen at RZ.

Benihana
12-08-2010, 03:04 PM
Fair enough. Time to move on from this thread IMO

Brutus
12-08-2010, 04:07 PM
"Reprehensible"? Wow. What words do you use for conduct that's actually bad?

Reprehensible: deserving rebuke, censure or blameworthy.

The word isn't as strong as it's used in modern vernacular. I don't think that definition is outrageous in the current usage.

All I'm saying is that, by general managers' own comments, the GM meetings are often the best place to hammer out a deal and to get a better idea of what's on the table. I think it's terribly irresponsible not to at least be exploring what's out there for a club. But in any event, I didn't believe the quote was true in its' reported state, and as it turns out, it wasn't entirely. So this is a moot discussion.

HokieRed
12-08-2010, 05:06 PM
I suspect WJ already has a very good idea of what's out there and of approximately what it will cost. I don't think GM's have to think about this as constantly as many RZers seem to think they need to do or do themselves, apparently.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 05:13 PM
I suspect WJ already has a very good idea of what's out there and of approximately what it will cost. I don't think GM's have to think about this as constantly as many RZers seem to think they need to do or do themselves, apparently.

My issue though is a lot of GMs, almost every one I've ever heard on the subject, will tell you it's much easier to make progress when sitting face to face. I think it's a missed opportunity to let that go to waste.

I don't think they have to think about it 'consistently.' But they're out there for a reason. Take advantage of the time given. I'm sure he does have an idea already. But sit down face to face and you never know what might happen.

Benihana
12-08-2010, 05:59 PM
My issue though is a lot of GMs, almost every one I've ever heard on the subject, will tell you it's much easier to make progress when sitting face to face. I think it's a missed opportunity to let that go to waste.

I don't think they have to think about it 'consistently.' But they're out there for a reason. Take advantage of the time given. I'm sure he does have an idea already. But sit down face to face and you never know what might happen.

Exactly. Why make the trip if you're just talking internally? Shouldn't you talk internally before the trip as a standard form of preperation? OK, I need to step feeding this animal.

HokieRed
12-08-2010, 07:00 PM
Walt's history shows he has no reluctance to make trades, important and risky trades. My sense is that he will talk when it matters and knows that a lot of talk doesn't matter.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 07:15 PM
Walt's history shows he has no reluctance to make trades, important and risky trades. My sense is that he will talk when it matters and knows that a lot of talk doesn't matter.

Talk is the only way to agree on a trade. You can't make a deal that you're not discussing.

HokieRed
12-08-2010, 07:31 PM
Talk is the only way to agree on a trade. You can't make a deal that you're not discussing.


Actually I think you have to sometimes allow your trading partners not to talk themselves out of trades. There's the right amount of talk in all things.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 07:33 PM
Actually I think you have to sometimes allow your trading partners not to talk themselves out of trades. There's the right amount of talk in all things.

Oh, I certainly agree with that. I just mean that it's reportedly easier to make a deal face to face. So I think it's advantageous to test that.

backbencher
12-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Arroyo, Bruce, Cairo, [Cueto], [Votto]: Perhaps Walt found some way to make use of his face-to-face time with agents after all.

Will M
12-10-2010, 07:54 PM
Arroyo, Bruce, Cairo, [Cueto], [Votto]: Perhaps Walt found some way to make use of his face-to-face time with agents after all.

OK

however, extending guys we already control for 2011 doesn't make us any better in 2011.