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View Full Version : Cardinals brass preparing fans for life without Pujols?



Vottomatic
12-08-2010, 05:04 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bryan-burwell/article_0c441c96-8400-57d6-afac-c6b7a0e65d88.html


The longer you listen to Cardinals officials who carefully broach the subject, the more it sounds like they are either trying to get you to start getting comfortable with the possible reality of life without Pujols in the not-so-distant future, or at the very least take the concept out for a little public stroll for their own prospective negotiating benefit.

"Every team has financial limitations," team Chairman Bill DeWitt told Cardinals beat writer Joe Strauss on Tuesday at baseball's winter meetings in Florida. "I don't care what team you name. They have them. It's a process where you have to evaluate the value of a player given the ability to still field an effective, competitive club. Those are always the tradeoffs. It's not 'I don't want to give you X dollars because you don't deserve it.' It's 'I've got so much money I can afford and have a competitive team.' And you've got to put all those pieces together."



No wonder they appear to be going all out for next year. They know it's their last shot with Pujols as he bolts for the money train soon after.

scott91575
12-08-2010, 05:10 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bryan-burwell/article_0c441c96-8400-57d6-afac-c6b7a0e65d88.html



No wonder they appear to be going all out for next year. They know it's their last shot with Pujols as he bolts for the money train soon after.

If going all out is Berkman and Theriot, I would hate to see half assed.

Vottomatic
12-08-2010, 05:21 PM
If going all out is Berkman and Theriot, I would hate to see half assed.

They also signed Westbrook. Very solid 1 thru 4 rotation. Better than the Reds, that's for sure.

I'll agree about the position players, but atleast they're trying.

Hondo
12-08-2010, 05:54 PM
If going all out is Berkman and Theriot, I would hate to see half assed.

I would agree with you on that... Theriot is nothing more than a utility player at this point.... For 8 Million, I would think the Astros would have signed him back for that ammount...

MikeThierry
12-08-2010, 08:57 PM
I can tell you this right now, if Cardinals management fails to sign Pujols, they will lose all creditability with fans in St. Louis. Heck, there might even be rioting on the streets. This organization had at least 7 years to prepare for the Pujols free agency and it shows a lack of foresight if they cannot sign him to a long term contract. They have consistently had 3 million plus come to the ballpark per year and have kept the payroll anywhere from 85-100 million a year while raising ticket prices. Yes, I know part of it is to pay for the stadium but the Cardinals have money.

That said, Burwell is trying to ruffle up some feathers and I think it is too soon to really start panicking.

Vottomatic
12-08-2010, 10:34 PM
The only way they sign him is if he takes a discount. If he wants $28-$30M, I think they let him walk.

I would.

Why pay one player that much? Salaries are getting out of hand. I see some kind of work stoppage in the next 5 years to get this under control.

Hondo
12-08-2010, 11:54 PM
Walts master plan is probably to sign Pujols to a LTC with the Reds when he hits Free Agency.

Vottomatic
12-08-2010, 11:56 PM
Walts master plan is probably to sign Pujols to a LTC with the Reds when he hits Free Agency.

Sign Votto to LTC.
Sign Pujols next year to LTC, move Votto to LF.
Sign Cliff Lee this year to LTC.
Trade for Greinke and Felix Hernandez.
Trade for Choo.

If we were New York, it would be easy. :D

MikeThierry
12-09-2010, 12:39 AM
Votto I understand where you are coming from but Pujols means more to this team than just a bat and glove. Pujols is the lifeblood of this team and is one of the reasons why the Cardinals consistently draw 3 million plus at the ballpark every year. He is basically what Derek Jeter is to the Yankees.

Razzle
12-09-2010, 01:07 AM
Votto I understand where you are coming from but Pujols means more to this team than just a bat and glove. Pujols is the lifeblood of this team and is one of the reasons why the Cardinals consistently draw 3 million plus at the ballpark every year. He is basically what Derek Jeter is to the Yankees.

Winning teams bring fans to the ballpark. If the Cardinals have 5 losing in a row from the middle to the end of a potential Pujols contract, an aging Pujols likely isn't going to put people in the seats. Don't get me wrong, I want him signed, but if he wants more than we could pay while also remaining competitive, I think it's there is plenty of justification for not signing him.

I do, however, agree that much of the fanbase would be livid, and rightfully so. I don't know where my break even point would be, nor do I know where each side is as of now. I know it'll never happen but if it they can't get him signed this offseason and aren't close in terms of negotiations, I'd look at trading him. The worst thing this team can do is simply let him walk for a pair of picks.

MikeThierry
12-09-2010, 01:27 AM
Razzle it really isn't that easy to say just trade him because he can nix any trade the Cards throw at him.

Razzle
12-09-2010, 01:32 AM
Razzle it really isn't that easy to say just trade him because he can nix any trade the Cards throw at him.

I agree completely and if that's the route he would take under those circumstances I'm fine with that, he's earned it.

I think what it comes down for to me is whether the fans are willing to accept potential down years from the team in the later years of a potential contract to ensure that one of the best players of all time remains in a Cards uni for the entirety of his career. For me the answer is pretty simple, I'm perfectly fine with the tradeoff. Guys like Pujols don't come around very often, if I have to endure 5 mediocre to bad years to keep him a Card for life, I'd do it. Maybe that makes me a bad fan of the team itself, but oh well.

foxfire123
12-09-2010, 01:36 AM
Walts master plan is probably to sign Pujols to a LTC with the Reds when he hits Free Agency.

Oh Gawd. Please. No. For one, I don't care how good he's been, he's due for a long ride on the injury train. We had that with Griffey. Once is enough.

Beside it would make me positively ill to see that man in a Reds uni. :barf:

MikeThierry
12-09-2010, 02:02 AM
I never understood the logic of people not wanting a player because they feel they are due for a big injury. If management ran on that kind of fear, no team would win. Pujols has never failed to play in less than 143 games. Compare that to Griffey who even earlier in his career had injuries that limited him to 72 games at one point. To also say it would make you ill to see him in a Reds uniform is an exaggeration to the extreme.

MikeThierry
12-09-2010, 02:11 AM
Here is actually a pretty good article written by Jayson Stark on the subject:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5900442

Moosie52
12-09-2010, 08:29 AM
Walts master plan is probably to sign Pujols to a LTC with the Reds when he hits Free Agency.

With some payments deferred until 2040.

bounty37h
12-09-2010, 12:28 PM
The only way they sign him is if he takes a discount. If he wants $28-$30M, I think they let him walk.

I would.

Why pay one player that much? Salaries are getting out of hand. I see some kind of work stoppage in the next 5 years to get this under control.

I do too. Honestly, at this point, I wouldnt blame owners, but at the same time, they are the ones who gave out these silly contracts that keep getting crazier and crazier, so its really their mess they made.

Hondo
12-09-2010, 02:16 PM
With some payments deferred until 2040.

I hope you are in the front office. Great Idea!

Vottomatic
12-09-2010, 02:39 PM
Oh Gawd. Please. No. For one, I don't care how good he's been, he's due for a long ride on the injury train. We had that with Griffey. Once is enough.

Beside it would make me positively ill to see that man in a Reds uni. :barf:

I actually agree with you, which makes me crazy in Mike Thierry's eyes.

As great a player as he is and has been, I just feel with that body of his that he is due to breakdown in the near future.

And I have lingering bad feelings about Junior's career as a Red.

If they sign him long term, they will have to deal with his decline eventually, and a salary that may prohibit them from fielding a competitive team.

We have the same problem with Joey now. As much as I love Joey, I'm prepared that he won't be here beyond 3 years from now. But I feel our farm system is rebuilt to the point of rejuvenating the roster periodically, that we will have to let guys walk or trade them before it's too late to get anything return. Unfortunately, it's the business of baseball, and these crazy contracts are really creating a great divide between the have's and have nots.

But the Reds did it the right way. Trading for young players who panned out (Phillips, Volquez), trading for a wiley ole veteran for clubhouse leadership in Rolen, and building a farm system that has filled most of the roster (Leake, Bailey, Cueto, Wood, Bruce, Votto, Stubbs, Heisey, Janish, Hanigan, Valaika, Cozart, Francisco, Ondrusek, J Smith, and others). And then some smart reasonably priced free agent signings in OCab, Cairo, Hernandez, sprinkled in here and there.

Vottomatic
12-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Cubs targeting Pujols in 2012?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/2751466-419/pena-cubs-season-carlos-meetings.html


The Cubs aren’t entertaining public conversation about things that far down the road. But they made no secret of looking at shorter-term fixes for their biggest roster need going into this winter of payroll squeezing and creative roster remodeling as they looked ahead at potential longer-term solutions for the position — including San Diego’s Adrian Gonzalez until the Red Sox swooped in over the weekend to land him in a big trade.

They’re also looking ahead at a payroll that should be flush with room to work a year from now — even with half of Pena’s $10-million salary deferred to ’12 — as $40 million comes off the books in expiring contracts for just three players (Kosuke Fukudome, Aramis Ramirez and Carlos Silva).

What happens in the next 10 months with team performance, Pena’s performance in particular and how quickly the Cubs’ promising young prospects mature will have a lot to say about what the Cubs specifically target for what could be a serious playoff push in 2012. And while they’re not willing to speculate on that now, the Cubs do say they’d like to maintain as much flexibility as they can.

and



But how the Cubs have positioned themselves with the Pena signing has to make the rival Cardinals squirm at least a little.

If St. Louis can’t get what figures to be a mega-extension done with Pujols — and indications are that basic parameters for a deal aren’t even close to being established, even as the sides talked more during the winter meetings — the Cubs will be positioned uniquely among big-revenue teams to be aggressive. The Red Sox, of course, have the position secure now, along with other such big spenders as the Yankees (Mark Teixeira) and the Mets (Ike Davis).



Pujols headed to the Cubs after next season. Boy, that would really irk the Cardinal fans big time.

Hondo
12-09-2010, 05:22 PM
Cubs targeting Pujols in 2012?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/2751466-419/pena-cubs-season-carlos-meetings.html



and



Pujols headed to the Cubs after next season. Boy, that would really irk the Cardinal fans big time.

I wish Walt would sign Pujols just to piss off the Cardinals...

After all he was there when Pujols was signed and extension was signed...

Joey, start shagging balls in Left sir!

Gunner44
12-09-2010, 07:19 PM
I love how they put Ike Davis in the same sentence as Gonzales and Tex. As if they are comparable lol

OGB
12-09-2010, 07:58 PM
Oh Gawd. Please. No. For one, I don't care how good he's been, he's due for a long ride on the injury train. We had that with Griffey. Once is enough.

Beside it would make me positively ill to see that man in a Reds uni. :barf:

All those steroids and growth hormone he's taken are supposed to help him avoid injury and recover more quickly if he is injured. It worked wonders for Barry Bonds.

foxfire123
12-09-2010, 08:32 PM
To also say it would make you ill to see him in a Reds uniform is an exaggeration to the extreme.

Shall we bet my friend? You seriously have no idea how much I dislike that man.

MikeThierry
12-10-2010, 05:15 AM
Why would you dislike the man? It would be like me having hate for Joey Votto or Joe Mauer.

Votto, I don't think you are crazy for believing that. Injury could happen. It could happen to anyone. However there has not been an injury history with Pujols that has kept him out of games. Yes, he has had some off season surgeries to clean up some stuff (IE bone spurs) but nothing to the extent that keeps him out from playing less than 140 games a year. Furthermore, it might be kind of apples and oranges comparing the experience the Reds had with Griffey to Pujols simply because they play completely different positions. The outfield is completely different from first base as far as how injuries affect ones ability to play that position and how athletic one has to be to play those positions. The slightest injury drastically affects a players ability to play that outfield where as with first base those players can generally play through minor injuries.

PeteRoseBelongs
12-10-2010, 11:00 AM
I would like to see the guy stay in St. Louis but don't kid yourself for a second. No player has any loyalty to any organization. It isn't the player that dictates anything, its the player's union that controls baseball. Puhols has earned more money than he could ever spend in his lifetime. If he was concerned about the team or the FANS then he would come out and say money will never be a issue. You people have more loyalty to players than they have to you. All any of us are to these guys is a way to a paycheck.