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View Full Version : Miguel Cairo Signs 2 Year Deal (per Mark Sheldon)



camisadelgolf
12-08-2010, 12:02 PM
According to Ken Rosenthal. Meh.
http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/12550994432884736

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2010, 12:04 PM
I hope it's only a minor league deal. It's unlikely the Reds catch lightning in a bottle twice with Cairo.

camisadelgolf
12-08-2010, 12:12 PM
I hope it's only a minor league deal. It's unlikely the Reds catch lightning in a bottle twice with Cairo.
I agree, but I'd guess that it's likely a one-year deal worth close to $1MM.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 12:13 PM
I hope it's only a minor league deal. It's unlikely the Reds catch lightning in a bottle twice with Cairo.

Can't imagine that it is.

pedro
12-08-2010, 12:16 PM
Cairo exceeded expectations last year but even with a significant slip he's ok as a 25th player. Can't say I want him as the primary BU at 3rd and 1st though.

Joseph
12-08-2010, 12:26 PM
Hopefully there is still room on the bench for Cozart as I've read somewhere to be the primary defensive IF replacement/back up.

I like Miggy though and hope he has another productive year. He seems to love to play the game and that kind of spirit is infectious in a clubhouse.

Benihana
12-08-2010, 01:36 PM
Hopefully Cozart or Valaika are the primary MI backups, with Francisco or Alonso on the corners. I hope this deal is for $1MM or less.

Tom Servo
12-08-2010, 02:10 PM
Well that would just lock up the division for us, I'd say.

klw
12-08-2010, 04:39 PM
cue the apocalypse
http://twitter.com/m_sheldon/status/12621237826093056

camisadelgolf
12-08-2010, 04:41 PM
Wow. I don't think anyone saw two years. This goes to show how important certain people view intangibles.

RedsManRick
12-08-2010, 04:41 PM
No problem bringing him back, but two years Walt? The guy will be 37 next year. Cairo is the position player version of Mike Lincoln, without the injuries. In an up year, he's solid. But betting on a string of good years probably isn't the greatest idea.

He must be one heck of an intangibles guy...

reds1869
12-08-2010, 04:41 PM
Two years is very surprising. I'm glad to have Cairo back but two years makes no sense at all.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 04:42 PM
I was on board with bringing him back, but not sure I get the 2-years aspect. Utilitymen shouldn't be signed to multi-year deals unless they're extremely valuable. But especially ones in their late 30s.

camisadelgolf
12-08-2010, 04:42 PM
Fwiw, it's been said that he's an expert at finding out which pitchers are tipping pitches. That has a lot of value.
nb4"then hire him as a coach instead"

klw
12-08-2010, 04:42 PM
I assume that we will find out that there is a team option or year 2 and this is a way to defer some money.

Strikes Out Looking
12-08-2010, 04:51 PM
Per Fay, Walt says its less than market price

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/12/08/9705/

Tom Servo
12-08-2010, 04:53 PM
I audibly groaned when I read on rotoworld that it's a 2 year deal. I like Miggy alright but he's like the slightly richer man's Juan Castro.

JaxRed
12-08-2010, 04:58 PM
Well, I think market is about $650K for him, so let's see if it's below that.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 04:59 PM
Interesting, if it is for less than market value than it probably doesn't hurt much. If he falls on his face then they just eat the rest of his contract.

I(heart)Freel
12-08-2010, 05:05 PM
Someone is hitching his cart to Rolen's (aging) horse.

RedLegSuperStar
12-08-2010, 05:54 PM
1 million this year. 1 million next

Degenerate39
12-08-2010, 06:01 PM
Didn't like Cairo last year. Dont like him for the next two years

RedsManRick
12-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Just saw the money. I take it back. That's peanuts, barely more than twice the league minimum. You basically can't go wrong for that. If he's horrible and you want to let him go, it's not a tough pill to swallow. If he's good again, it's a nice asset.

IslandRed
12-08-2010, 06:25 PM
Just saw the money. I take it back. That's peanuts, barely more than twice the league minimum. You basically can't go wrong for that. If he's horrible and you want to let him go, it's not a tough pill to swallow. If he's good again, it's a nice asset.

I have the same take. Jocketty obviously liked what Cairo gave the team last year, both off the bench and in the clubhouse. If we keep getting it, great, if we don't, no big loss.

MattyHo4Life
12-08-2010, 06:28 PM
Just saw the money. I take it back. That's peanuts

Dang, I want some peanuts. lol

Griffey012
12-08-2010, 07:26 PM
First move of Jocketty's that I hate. Anything more than 650K a year is too much. Would Cairo have really turned down 1 year at 1 million per? I don't think so, and if some other team wanted to give him more than that...that is their problem.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 07:28 PM
First move of Jocketty's that I hate. Anything more than 650K a year is too much. Would Cairo have really turned down 1 year at 1 million per? I don't think so, and if some other team wanted to give him more than that...that is their problem.

I'm not crazy about 2 years, but a million bucks? That's chump change in today's pay.

Griffey012
12-08-2010, 07:32 PM
I'm not crazy about 2 years, but a million bucks? That's chump change in today's pay.

But I am afraid if he falls flat on his face he will get a lot more opportunities because of the 2 year 2 mil. Some sort of vesting option would have made much more sense. Then again, I am not in the clubhouse so I do not know what kind of true value off the field Cairo brings, I know it is quite a bit though.

Brutus
12-08-2010, 07:38 PM
But I am afraid if he falls flat on his face he will get a lot more opportunities because of the 2 year 2 mil. Some sort of vesting option would have made much more sense. Then again, I am not in the clubhouse so I do not know what kind of true value off the field Cairo brings, I know it is quite a bit though.

Yea but even if he falls flat on his face, they're paying (arguably) less than 1-year market value to make him go away if they need to give an outright release. So really, the risk is minimal.

PuffyPig
12-08-2010, 07:39 PM
But I am afraid if he falls flat on his face he will get a lot more opportunities because of the 2 year 2 mil. Some sort of vesting option would have made much more sense.

For the Reds yes, for Cairo no.

A lesser salary would make more sense for the Reds too.

Presumably the Reds felt that this is what it took to get him signed.

TheNext44
12-08-2010, 08:01 PM
I see this as reward for him playing last season at near league minimum and providing much more than replacement value. Basically this $2M is the bonus he earned for last year. A pretty cheap bonus considering his production last year. He could not play an inning and still be a good deal over all.

Tom Servo
12-08-2010, 08:08 PM
Yea but even if he falls flat on his face, they're paying (arguably) less than 1-year market value to make him go away if they need to give an outright release. So really, the risk is minimal.
Yeah I compared Miggy to Manos de Oro and the contract situation here is just as apt. As I recall we had Castro signed for two years and early in the second year (I believe 2008) they just designated him for assignment and released him because they were only paying him 1 million or so. If Cairo is of no use down the line, the Reds will get rid of him.

Orenda
12-08-2010, 08:11 PM
Just saw the money. I take it back. That's peanuts, barely more than twice the league minimum. You basically can't go wrong for that. If he's horrible and you want to let him go, it's not a tough pill to swallow. If he's good again, it's a nice asset.

At the major league level that may be peanuts, but that would be a decent chunk of change to throw at an amateur player in the draft or international free agency.

Orenda
12-08-2010, 08:12 PM
[QUOTE=TheNext44;2304007]I see this as reward for him playing last season at near league minimum and providing much more than replacement value. Basically this $2M is the bonus he earned for last year. A pretty cheap bonus considering his production last year. He could not play an inning and still be a good deal over all.[/QUOT

If he puts up horrible numbers do you think he will give any money back?

backbencher
12-08-2010, 08:26 PM
I see this as reward for him playing last season at near league minimum and providing much more than replacement value. Basically this $2M is the bonus he earned for last year. A pretty cheap bonus considering his production last year. He could not play an inning and still be a good deal over all.

This.

Plus, I'd think of this contract as a one year deal with half of the money deferred.

RedEye
12-08-2010, 09:24 PM
How come every year there are a flurry of transactions I categorize individually as "Meh" which then end by adding up to "Wow, what a colossal waste of cash"? I'm not saying Cairo isn't a useful addition to this roster--I'm just saying he's a part that is entirely replaceable by cheaper options. Get enough of those, and you miss out on looking for a significant upgrade somewhere.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 09:32 PM
At the major league level that may be peanuts, but that would be a decent chunk of change to throw at an amateur player in the draft or international free agency.

In the last 2 years we have seen Cincy go out and spend legit money in the international market while drafting college "tough signs" like Alonso and Grandal.

If they were going the cheap route, I'd be with you. But they haven't been hindered in recent years. This signing won't stop them in other areas.

kaldaniels
12-08-2010, 09:38 PM
How come every year there are a flurry of transactions I categorize individually as "Meh" which then end by adding up to "Wow, what a colossal waste of cash"? I'm not saying Cairo isn't a useful addition to this roster--I'm just saying he's a part that is entirely replaceable by cheaper options. Get enough of those, and you miss out on looking for a significant upgrade somewhere.

Let's start with 2008 and 2009. What transactions are you referring to? How much is a colossal waste? And how do the Reds compare to the other teams in baseball in these cash-wasting transactions of which you speak?

I really don't know what you are referring to.

RedEye
12-08-2010, 09:57 PM
Let's start with 2008 and 2009. What transactions are you referring to? How much is a colossal waste? And how do the Reds compare to the other teams in baseball in these cash-wasting transactions of which you speak?

I really don't know what you are referring to.

Maybe my "every year" implies too much independence between the years's transactions. Strike that element from my argument.

What I'm referring to is the large number of 1 and 2-year contracts that seem to go to players like Hernandez, Cabrera, Taveras, Cairo, Gomes, etc. when there are definitely cheaper, likely equally effective--and possibly even more effective--replacement in-house options available.

edabbs44
12-08-2010, 10:00 PM
Maybe my "every year" implies too much independence between the years's transactions. Strike that element from my argument.

What I'm referring to is the large number of 1 and 2-year contracts that seem to go to players like Hernandez, Cabrera, Taveras, Cairo, Gomes, etc. when there are definitely cheaper, likely equally effective--and possibly even more effective--replacement in-house options available.

Wow...there are some who give a lot of credit for last year's success to that crew (minus WT).

Blitz Dorsey
12-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Two years? Talk about bidding against yourself. I guarantee there was not another MLB team offering Cairo a two-year deal at his age.

westofyou
12-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Just another tear in a salted sea.

RED VAN HOT
12-08-2010, 10:33 PM
It seems to me that WJ is not comfortable being dependent on a minor league player to perform well enough in ST to fill a hole. If the young players does play welll, fine. If not, Cairo is excellent insurance at an affordable price.

corkedbat
12-08-2010, 10:35 PM
I know we get jaded by all the salary figures that get thrown around, but $1M will still by a lot of danged peanuts (I can get'em free at Texas Roadhouse). :D

Orenda
12-08-2010, 10:44 PM
In the last 2 years we have seen Cincy go out and spend legit money in the international market while drafting college "tough signs" like Alonso and Grandal.

If they were going the cheap route, I'd be with you. But they haven't been hindered in recent years. This signing won't stop them in other areas.

i know i wasn't accusing them of that but it's just my preference that they increase their player development budget as opposed to giving miguel cairo a couple million. He made me eat crow last year so good for him i guess, but i still think he is a safe bet to regress.

OnBaseMachine
12-08-2010, 10:55 PM
Not quite the minor league deal I was hoping it would be.

Ron Madden
12-09-2010, 03:09 AM
I like Miguel Cairo and I'm thankful for his contribution in 2010.

Two years @ $2MM seems kind of a stretch to me though.

Mario-Rijo
12-09-2010, 04:51 AM
I like Miguel Cairo and I'm thankful for his contribution in 2010.

Two years @ $2MM seems kind of a stretch to me though.

Same here, a real stretch. But I guess it's ok for some GM's to sign bad deals and eat contracts. In a year are we gonna be lamenting Arroyo, Rolen & Cairos continued presence? Hope not.

Roy Tucker
12-09-2010, 08:29 AM
I think its a good signing for that money. He's a good stick off the bench and decent backup at 3B and 1B (and can fake his way at other positions). As long as they keep his AB's down (like last years 200), he's an asset. He's the kind of player that takes excellent care of himself so I can see him aplying another couple years as backup.

But I don't get the comparison to Castro. Castro could field a ball well if it was hit within 2 steps but couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag.

cumberlandreds
12-09-2010, 09:38 AM
In todays baseball financial world $2M isn't that much. He did everything last season you could ever expect of him and more. If does fall off the face of the baseball earth this or next season it's not all that much $$$$ to eat.

RedsManRick
12-09-2010, 10:25 AM
Coming off back to back Cairo-esque seasons, Ty Wigginton signed a 2 year, $7.5M deal. Could Cairo be replaced by Valaika or a Drew Sutton type? Probably. But given the way the market has been valuing these sorts of "proven" utility types, Cairo is a bargain.

dfs
12-09-2010, 10:48 AM
I don't mind the deal in terms of money and if you want to give a bench player a 2 year contract, you can do that. The worse thing that happens is you can Aaron-Miles him and you're out a bit of cash.

I guess it shows what the reds think of their infield prospects. Chris Valaika has no obvious major league role. Todd Frazier is only gonna sniff a roster spot if he starts hitting like an outfielder. If you gotta play Frazier in left, you've got no room to experiment with Yonder out there too.

Decent deal from the reds point of view. I guess after a decent year Cairo would rather have security than trying to maximize his salary.

Puffy
12-09-2010, 10:56 AM
I can't believe anyone would question this - Cairo knows his role. He doesn't need to start, can pinch hit at any time in game, can fake his way to playing any position if the Reds bench gets short, is a great teammate (according to everyone on team), has played on pennant winners, on World Series teams, and its below market value. For the 24th man on roster!!!

Then again I was one of the few who liked the original signing of Cairo last year so maybe I'm biased.

Ron Madden
12-13-2010, 02:16 AM
Interesting article from John Fay.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101212/SPT04/12130316/1062/SPT/Reds-green-on-the-bench

TRF
12-13-2010, 01:17 PM
I actually don't care because Jocketty ate enough of the horrible contract he gave Taveras. I think he'd swallow this one if he needed to.

Hopefully Rolen stays healthy and productive all year and he gets only spot duty. I hope we never see him at SS.

TheNext44
12-13-2010, 02:54 PM
Interesting article from John Fay.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101212/SPT04/12130316/1062/SPT/Reds-green-on-the-bench

As usual, Fay has no idea what he's talking about.

With Arroyo's deferrment, even if the Reds pay $17M for all the arbitration eligble players, which is the very high end, their payroll is at $69M. Even if they only can use half of Arroyo's deferrment, it puts them at $72M.

That is $4M under last years budget, and we know that this years budget will be higher.

So at the very minimum, the Reds have $4M of payflex, and it might be as high as $10M, and that is not counting any increase in payroll.

camisadelgolf
12-13-2010, 03:35 PM
As usual, Fay has no idea what he's talking about.

With Arroyo's deferrment, even if the Reds pay $17M for all the arbitration eligble players, which is the very high end, their payroll is at $69M. Even if they only can use half of Arroyo's deferrment, it puts them at $72M.

That is $4M under last years budget, and we know that this years budget will be higher.

So at the very minimum, the Reds have $4M of payflex, and it might be as high as $10M, and that is not counting any increase in payroll.
Keeping in mind the deferred payments, the Reds are at ~$54.415MM if you're not including the arbitration group and Jay Bruce. I don't doubt that Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, Jared Burton, and Bill Bray could combine for close to the $21MM needed to match 2010's payroll. How much of an increase in pay are you expecting?


3.000 Ramon Hernandez
12.250 Brandon Phillips
8.200 Scott Rolen
0.450 Paul Janish
2.000 Jonny Gomes
0.450 Drew Stubbs
0.450 Ryan Hanigan
0.600 Yonder Alonso
0.400 Zack Cozart
0.410 Chris Heisey
0.400 Todd Frazier
1.000 Miguel Cairo
6.500 Bronson Arroyo
2.500 Aroldis Chapman
0.420 Homer Bailey
13.000 Francisco Cordero
1.545 Nick Masset
0.420 Mike Leake
0.420 Travis Wood
------
54.415 TOTAL

??.??? Jay Bruce
??.??? Joey Votto
??.??? Edinson Volquez
??.??? Johnny Cueto
??.??? Jared Burton
??.??? Bill Bray

Caveat Emperor
12-13-2010, 03:44 PM
I like Miguel Cairo and I'm thankful for his contribution in 2010.

Two years @ $2MM seems kind of a stretch to me though.

League minimum is $400,000. They're paying Miguel $600,000 more than that. There may be cheaper options in-house, but they cannot possibly be that much cheaper without violating MLBPA rules.

TheNext44
12-13-2010, 03:53 PM
Keeping in mind the deferred payments, the Reds are at ~$60.415MM if you're not including the arbitration group. I don't doubt that Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, Jared Burton, and Bill Bray could combine for the $15MM needed to match 2010's payroll. How much of an increase in pay are you expecting?

Here's my breakdown for 2011 Payroll:

$55.2 for everyone already signed, per Cot's.

Cot's has Chapman's MLB salary wrong. He gets $1M in salary, and the rest in a signing bonus which comes out of the development fund, not payroll. So...

$55.2M minus
$02.7M equals
-------
$52.5M

Assuming the worst, add $17M for arbitration players

$52.5M plus
$17.0M equals
--------
$69.5M

There are 9 roster spots available, most going to minimum pay players, so lets say $5M to cover them all, again worst case scenario.

$69.5M plus
$05.0M equals
--------
$74.5M

That is $1.5M less than the 2010 payroll, and does not include Arroyo's deferrment. Technically, it's $6M, but lets say that only $2.5M goes to reducing 2011 payroll.

That leaves $4M left, without raising payroll a dime, in a worst case scenario.

Even if you count Chapman's pay against the payroll. it still is $1.5M, assuming the worst case scenario and no increase in payroll.

If the arbitration can get down to $15M, the remaning 9 players sign for $4M, and $4M of Arroyo's salary is deferred, that adds another $5M.

There is plenty of room even without a raise in payroll.

camisadelgolf
12-13-2010, 04:05 PM
Cot's doesn't account for everything. I had it at $54.415MM, but I'll take out $1.5MM for Chapman's bonus, which brings it to $52.915MM. Yonder Alonso likely won't make the team, but he will earn $600k even if he's in AAA. I figure there will be about $15MM in the arbitration settlements, which makes it about $68.9MM. Jay Bruce, I'm guessing, could get around $3-4MM. We're talking about $72MM already. Cordero's and Phillips' contracts ($1MM each) could be bought out, which I included in the total. A lot of players have performance bonuses, as well. I'm not saying there isn't room, but I don't see it as more than $6MM unless Castellini tells Jocketty that he'll expand it for the right acquisition (i.e. Lee, Beltran, Reyes, etc.).

mth123
12-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Here's my breakdown for 2011 Payroll:

$55.2 for everyone already signed, per Cot's.

Cot's has Chapman's MLB salary wrong. He gets $1M in salary, and the rest in a signing bonus which comes out of the development fund, not payroll. So...

$55.2M minus
$02.7M equals
-------
$52.5M

Assuming the worst, add $17M for arbitration players

$52.5M plus
$17.0M equals
--------
$69.5M

There are 9 roster spots available, most going to minimum pay players, so lets say $5M to cover them all, again worst case scenario.

$69.5M plus
$05.0M equals
--------
$74.5M

That is $1.5M less than the 2010 payroll, and does not include Arroyo's deferrment. Technically, it's $6M, but lets say that only $2.5M goes to reducing 2011 payroll.

That leaves $4M left, without raising payroll a dime, in a worst case scenario.

Even if you count Chapman's pay against the payroll. it still is $1.5M, assuming the worst case scenario and no increase in payroll.

If the arbitration can get down to $15M, the remaning 9 players sign for $4M, and $4M of Arroyo's salary is deferred, that adds another $5M.

There is plenty of room even without a raise in payroll.

I think you are about right. I just wonder if it will only go so high. I'm guessing another $3 Million to bring back Rhodes and that's it with possibly some room to add at the deadline.




POS Name $
P Johnny Cueto 4.00
P Bronson Arroyo 6.50
P Homer Bailey 0.40
P Nick Masset 1.55
P Fran Cordero 12.00
P Logan Ondrusek 0.40
P Edinson Volquez 2.50
P Bill Bray 0.50
P Travis Wood 0.40
P Aroldis Chapman 1.00
P Jose Arredondo 1.00
P Jared Burton 0.80
C Ryan Hanigan 0.55
C Ramon Hernandez 3.00
IF Miguel Cairo 1.00
IF Joey Votto 7.50
IF Bran Phillips 11.25
IF Scott Rolen 7.80
IF Paul Janish 0.50
IF Zach Cozart 0.40
OF Jay Bruce 3.00
OF Chris Heisey 0.40
OF Juan Francisco 0.40
OF Drew Stubbs 0.50
OF Jonny Gomes 1.75

Injury Fill Ins 1.00
IF Yonder Alonso 0.60
Cabrera 1.00
Harang 2.00
73.70