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R_Webb18
12-10-2010, 06:03 PM
why does it seems like so many people hate him? imo hes one of our best pitchers and I think he will improve yet again next year. when ever I see trade this pitcher. Its always johnny cueto or volquez? If I had to pick any I'd trade volquez.

lonewolf371
12-10-2010, 06:15 PM
I like Cueto a lot. I don't put his ceiling quite as high as some other do. I think he'll likely be around a #2 starter during his best years and won't quite make ace status, but hey, a solid #2 starter is probably worth well over $10 million a year in free agency so I have no problems with wrapping him up beyond arbitration. His control and standard stats have improved every year so far and he seems a solid bet to pan out to his potential, unlike Volquez who I think could go as high as ace status or simply fizzle out of MLB due to control problems.

Vottomatic
12-10-2010, 06:26 PM
I like Cueto, but I used to love him. The Cardinals kicking incident might have stolen some of my love for him. Also, just when I think he's become dominant, he'll have one of those really bad outings which makes me question his ability.

Hopefully he continues to improve.

Hondo
12-10-2010, 06:57 PM
why does it seems like so many people hate him? imo hes one of our best pitchers and I think he will improve yet again next year. when ever I see trade this pitcher. Its always johnny cueto or volquez? If I had to pick any I'd trade volquez.

Yes! I agree 100% Volquez value will never be higher than now based on potential so this is the time to Package him for an Impact Player.

mlh1981
12-10-2010, 07:57 PM
There was a start last year against the Royals that really showed to me that Cueto was developing in terms of mental toughness.

He started off the game BRUTALLY. The old Cueto would have completely caved in, but he picked himself off the mat, and though the final statline was bad, he kept us in the game, which I believe we won (without looking at the boxscore).

He's made nice progress, as he's taking the game more seriously and honing his craft.

roby
12-11-2010, 12:47 AM
:D
Yes! I agree 100% Volquez value will never be higher than now based on potential so this is the time to Package him for an Impact Player.

Maybe we could trade him for Josh hamilton...he's pretty good. :D

flyersbaseball
12-12-2010, 10:43 AM
There was a start last year against the Royals that really showed to me that Cueto was developing in terms of mental toughness.

He started off the game BRUTALLY. The old Cueto would have completely caved in, but he picked himself off the mat, and though the final statline was bad, he kept us in the game, which I believe we won (without looking at the boxscore).

He's made nice progress, as he's taking the game more seriously and honing his craft.

That game was the Saturday night bh game when Gomes had the 2 3-run HRS, they won

lonewolf371
12-12-2010, 11:32 AM
Yes! I agree 100% Volquez value will never be higher than now based on potential so this is the time to Package him for an Impact Player.
Uh, I don't think Volquez has hardly any trade value at this point. There's too much risk associated with him for another team to gamble on him and give up valuable players. The Reds' best option by far is to sit on him and hope he returns to his former All-Star status.

Think about it this way: if you want to get rid of a guy, why would another team want him?

Vottomatic
12-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Uh, I don't think Volquez has hardly any trade value at this point. There's too much risk associated with him for another team to gamble on him and give up valuable players. The Reds' best option by far is to sit on him and hope he returns to his former All-Star status.

Think about it this way: if you want to get rid of a guy, why would another team want him?

Well, I'm not looking to trade him.

BUT.......

In other discussions of trading for a quality leadoff hitter, ace pitcher, or good hitting LFer to bat behind Votto.......it's been discussed that we'd have to throw in one of our young starters. I like them all......BUT.........if I had to pick one to trade, Volquez would be on that list. I don't trade Wood......he's my favorite. I'm willing to trade 1 of the following - Bailey, Leake, Cueto or Volquez. Bailey has been up and down. Leake was strong all season and wore down at the end. Volquez was either brilliant or disastrous. Cueto was probably the most consistent, yet controversial. Wood had the best outings by far of any of them, IMHO.

lonewolf371
12-12-2010, 03:46 PM
Well, I'm not looking to trade him.

BUT.......

In other discussions of trading for a quality leadoff hitter, ace pitcher, or good hitting LFer to bat behind Votto.......it's been discussed that we'd have to throw in one of our young starters. I like them all......BUT.........if I had to pick one to trade, Volquez would be on that list. I don't trade Wood......he's my favorite. I'm willing to trade 1 of the following - Bailey, Leake, Cueto or Volquez. Bailey has been up and down. Leake was strong all season and wore down at the end. Volquez was either brilliant or disastrous. Cueto was probably the most consistent, yet controversial. Wood had the best outings by far of any of them, IMHO.
Yeah, I get the getting a quality leadoff hitter, but my point is that most teams would rather just keep their quality leadoff hitter rather than deal him for a pitcher with shaky control that hasn't put together a full, quality season since Tommy John surgery. If Volquez actually does put together that season, then he'll be too valuable to trade. He's the least likely of the Reds' pitchers that gets traded, since he has too little value before a proven bounce-back and would have too much value after a bounce-back.

As for Wood, I think we should cool our expectations. Pitching 100 innings in the bigs is quite a bit different from going 180-200. Let's wait before we start calling him Cliff Lee.

Hondo
12-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Uh, I don't think Volquez has hardly any trade value at this point. There's too much risk associated with him for another team to gamble on him and give up valuable players. The Reds' best option by far is to sit on him and hope he returns to his former All-Star status.

Think about it this way: if you want to get rid of a guy, why would another team want him?

You could say that about every player traded... or discussed about being traded.

lonewolf371
12-12-2010, 06:03 PM
You could say that about every player traded... or discussed about being traded.
The Mariners wanted to get rid of Cliff Lee? The Rangers wanted to get rid of Smoak and Ackley? The Red Sox wanted to part with three of their top ten prospects? If you want an impact player, you need to give up an impact player or someone that has a high chance of turning into an impact player that doesn't have a bunch of risk labels attached to him. Volquez has too much risk for any team to part with a solid lead-off hitter.

I think you need to part with one of the young guns to get another team to move. I wouldn't want to trade Wood due to his left-handedness and I think Cueto is simply too valuable. The main trade pieces are probably the usual Homer Bailey and Leake.

To be honest, though, I think the Reds are probably best off standing pat with what they have. Even dealing Bailey or Leake for a guy like Ellsbury would seem to be a loss for the Reds and I'm not into losing value in trades. It's nice to have 7 pitchers that can perform in The Show and it shouldn't be given away lightly. Sign a backup SS, platoon Heisey with Gomes, start Janish at SS, and try to get Stubbs going at lead-off with Brandon Phillips as option #2 if that goes wrong.

Hondo
12-12-2010, 08:07 PM
The Mariners wanted to get rid of Cliff Lee? The Rangers wanted to get rid of Smoak and Ackley? The Red Sox wanted to part with three of their top ten prospects? If you want an impact player, you need to give up an impact player or someone that has a high chance of turning into an impact player that doesn't have a bunch of risk labels attached to him. Volquez has too much risk for any team to part with a solid lead-off hitter.

I think you need to part with one of the young guns to get another team to move. I wouldn't want to trade Wood due to his left-handedness and I think Cueto is simply too valuable. The main trade pieces are probably the usual Homer Bailey and Leake.

To be honest, though, I think the Reds are probably best off standing pat with what they have. Even dealing Bailey or Leake for a guy like Ellsbury would seem to be a loss for the Reds and I'm not into losing value in trades. It's nice to have 7 pitchers that can perform in The Show and it shouldn't be given away lightly. Sign a backup SS, platoon Heisey with Gomes, start Janish at SS, and try to get Stubbs going at lead-off with Brandon Phillips as option #2 if that goes wrong.

You're making my point exactley...

Just because I want to trade EV, doesn't mean some other team does not see value in him...

The Reds have a strength in starting pitching, they have a weakness at SS and Defense in Left Field.

So Edinson being my least favorite out of Wood, Leake, Cueto etc...

Thats who I would trade out of the rest of them...

joshua
12-12-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm all for holding off trading any pitching. Next year should tell us ALOT about these guys. Everyone here seems to have a diffrent pick on who they think is going to break out and be an ace, best to wait it out and be more sure of what we have than gamble.

lonewolf371
12-12-2010, 09:39 PM
You're making my point exactley...

Just because I want to trade EV, doesn't mean some other team does not see value in him...

The Reds have a strength in starting pitching, they have a weakness at SS and Defense in Left Field.

So Edinson being my least favorite out of Wood, Leake, Cueto etc...

Thats who I would trade out of the rest of them...
I'm telling you that Volquez wouldn't get you what you want. Maybe you could trade Volquez and get a 1-2 WAR lead-off with a .315 OBP, but you're not going to get Jose Reyes without adding a lot more.

bounty37h
12-13-2010, 12:57 PM
I dont question his talents, i do question his mental ability to dig down deep, stay level headed, etc. I dont have anything to back it up, just observations. I first noticed it when he didn't get an all star bid a few season ago, he seemed to pout and never get back on track in his head that season. I am sure he has grown since then, but I just dont see that mental side of it that could take him to the next level as a complete dominant pitcher who can mentally pitch a great game when his arm isnt working with him on given days.

mckbearcat48
12-14-2010, 06:36 PM
Cueto's a great arm, no doubt. I had my little rant against him before the playoffs, but that was not for baseball reasons. The kid is talented, and he's a guy that could be a #2
(maybe 1) on a pretty good staff. There are worse pitchers that could fill that role.

BTW, anyone in the market for a slightly used totally ineffective Kyle Lohse?

foxfire123
12-14-2010, 06:43 PM
BTW, anyone in the market for a slightly used totally ineffective Kyle Lohse?

Had him. got rid of him. don't want him back. Sorry. :)

Been telling Cards fans for a couple years now he's overrated.

mckbearcat48
12-14-2010, 06:44 PM
Had him. got rid of him. don't want him back. Sorry. :)

Been telling Cards fans for a couple years now he's overrated.

There are some Cards fans that are a little slow to take a hint. But everybody needs a 12M 5th starter, right?

Old NDN
12-14-2010, 06:47 PM
I dont question his talents, i do question his mental ability to dig down deep, stay level headed, etc. I dont have anything to back it up, just observations. I first noticed it when he didn't get an all star bid a few season ago, he seemed to pout and never get back on track in his head that season. I am sure he has grown since then, but I just dont see that mental side of it that could take him to the next level as a complete dominant pitcher who can mentally pitch a great game when his arm isnt working with him on given days.

I agree. I have commented before about perception of an attitude or nonchalance. Ditto for Volquez. They both have great arms. I just don't see the killer attitude from either one of them. lol. Boy, I hope they prove me wrong. Maybe a haircut would help! lol.

Hondo
12-14-2010, 07:47 PM
I agree. I have commented before about perception of an attitude or nonchalance. Ditto for Volquez. They both have great arms. I just don't see the killer attitude from either one of them. lol. Boy, I hope they prove me wrong. Maybe a haircut would help! lol.

Ditto on EV's Haircut. He looks ridiculous out there with his Hat Awkwardly placed also.

Vottomatic
12-14-2010, 07:51 PM
Ditto on EV's Haircut. He looks ridiculous out there with his Hat Awkwardly placed also.

Absolutely. We need to sign a few male models, that look good, to pitch for us. Let's scout the next Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue shoot.

Hondo
12-14-2010, 08:54 PM
Absolutely. We need to sign a few male models, that look good, to pitch for us. Let's scout the next Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue shoot.

That was obviously what I was saying...

:rolleyes:

Girevik
12-15-2010, 09:40 AM
Absolutely. We need to sign a few male models, that look good, to pitch for us. Let's scout the next Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue shoot.

I TOTALLY disagree. If we're going after a people who look good but can't get anyone out, they sould ABSOLOUTLY target female models.

smixsell
12-15-2010, 07:45 PM
There was a start last year against the Royals that really showed to me that Cueto was developing in terms of mental toughness.

He started off the game BRUTALLY. The old Cueto would have completely caved in, but he picked himself off the mat, and though the final statline was bad, he kept us in the game, which I believe we won (without looking at the boxscore).

He's made nice progress, as he's taking the game more seriously and honing his craft.

If it was against the Royals we didn't win, as they swept us last year. I do remember a game like the one you decsribed, but it was against somebody else.

I agree that Johnny made some important strides last year, and I personally rate him to continue to improve to ace, or near ace, stauts over the next few years. (I also like his love for the game, it shows all the time and tends to be contagious)

tbball10
12-15-2010, 10:33 PM
i thought we took the saturday game vs the royals and then greinke laid the hammer on us on sunday

Hondo
12-16-2010, 03:14 PM
i thought we took the saturday game vs the royals and then greinke laid the hammer on us on sunday

Did somebody say "Greinke"?