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Hondo
12-15-2010, 07:30 PM
QUOTE

Werth's deal could help with recruiting going forward. Boras said he heard from other clients via phone or e-mail after Werth's contract was done.

"When Jayson signed, the first thing they all asked me: 'Oh, so Washington's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?' All those things. In the player community, when you gain that kind of street credit, you have taken a huge step, as far as what players will look at your organization and how they'll look at it differently."

QUOTE

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5923404

Besides the Reds signing Jayson Werth, (which is the misconception I think many of you here will zero in on - NOT THE CASE), I would like the Reds to do something, something that says...

"Oh, so Cincinnati's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?"

Whether it be Trading for Grienke or Reyes, or Swapping Cordero for Nick Swisher, or Acquiring Matt Garza from the Rays for Yonder Alonso...

I wish the Reds would not be standing pat... The Time to Win is now.

SeeinRed
12-15-2010, 07:49 PM
QUOTE

Werth's deal could help with recruiting going forward. Boras said he heard from other clients via phone or e-mail after Werth's contract was done.

"When Jayson signed, the first thing they all asked me: 'Oh, so Washington's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?' All those things. In the player community, when you gain that kind of street credit, you have taken a huge step, as far as what players will look at your organization and how they'll look at it differently."

QUOTE

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5923404 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5923404)

Besides the Reds signing Jayson Werth, (which is the misconception I think many of you here will zero in on - NOT THE CASE), I would like the Reds to do something, something that says...

"Oh, so Cincinnati's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?"

Whether it be Trading for Grienke or Reyes, or Swapping Cordero for Nick Swisher, or Acquiring Matt Garza from the Rays for Yonder Alonso...

I wish the Reds would not be standing pat... The Time to Win is now.

First, I'd take anything Boras says with a grain of salt. The Nationals are setting themselves up for a disasterous future with contracts like that and I don't want to be in the same breath as them when it comes to contract talks right now.

I honestly don't think the Reds have to do anything. The Reds should be starting the season in much better shape than they have been in a long time. Sure, a hammer for an ace would look good, and another bat would help, or maybe even a leadoff hitter who plays LF or SS, but none of it is worth mortgaging the future for. I'm sure Walt's shopping list looked a lot like most of us would like, but the player/deal hasn't been out there that can put the Reds over the top without either giving up a ton of talent or money.

I for one really like the strategy of not jumping on a trade or player just because you think you need it. Walt is very patient. Sure you could end up with an ace when you trade talent, but you could just as easily wind up with a Bedard type deal.

As an aside, I really think a lot of fans have an unrealistic idea in their head of what a trade should look like. Prospects are tricky to predict, but so are pitchers. There are no guaruntees that Greinke would be the ace that a lot on this board think he will. In fact, it is far from certain. In the end, I'm not sure the price is worth the risk. Winning now is a fine strategy, but I'd much rather be winning for the next 5 years. The Reds are set up to do just that.

For those who are upset with the Reds standing pat, I say be patient. You never know what will happen. The season hasn't even begun.

Hondo
12-15-2010, 09:44 PM
First, I'd take anything Boras says with a grain of salt. The Nationals are setting themselves up for a disasterous future with contracts like that and I don't want to be in the same breath as them when it comes to contract talks right now.

I honestly don't think the Reds have to do anything. The Reds should be starting the season in much better shape than they have been in a long time. Sure, a hammer for an ace would look good, and another bat would help, or maybe even a leadoff hitter who plays LF or SS, but none of it is worth mortgaging the future for. I'm sure Walt's shopping list looked a lot like most of us would like, but the player/deal hasn't been out there that can put the Reds over the top without either giving up a ton of talent or money.

I for one really like the strategy of not jumping on a trade or player just because you think you need it. Walt is very patient. Sure you could end up with an ace when you trade talent, but you could just as easily wind up with a Bedard type deal.

As an aside, I really think a lot of fans have an unrealistic idea in their head of what a trade should look like. Prospects are tricky to predict, but so are pitchers. There are no guaruntees that Greinke would be the ace that a lot on this board think he will. In fact, it is far from certain. In the end, I'm not sure the price is worth the risk. Winning now is a fine strategy, but I'd much rather be winning for the next 5 years. The Reds are set up to do just that.

For those who are upset with the Reds standing pat, I say be patient. You never know what will happen. The season hasn't even begun.

Back in 1993, the Reds had the opportunity to Trade for 1B Fred McGriff. San Diego wanted 1B prospect Tim Costo & RHP prospect John Roper. Jim Bowden refused to give up the Reds 2 prospects.

John Schuerholz, then GM of the Atlanta Braves traded for Vince Moore, Donnie Elliott and Melvin Nieves to San Diego for the All-Star 1B McGriff...

McGriff went on to hit .310-19-55 the rest of the 1993 Season with the Braves to win another pennant and further change the landscape of the National League...

I am all for trading "prospects"

Vottomatic
12-15-2010, 10:37 PM
Boras is a tool. When he opens his mouth, I close my ears for fear of having my intelligence insulted.

The Nationals overpaid big time and that WILL go down as one of the worst contracts ever.

I think the Reds are only going to step up for something big or something small. Not something dumb. Greinke? If it is fair. Reyes? If it is fair.

The Reds aren't going to overpay anymore, which rules out alot of these deals after a stupid deal like Werth's happens.

SeeinRed
12-15-2010, 11:30 PM
Back in 1993, the Reds had the opportunity to Trade for 1B Fred McGriff. San Diego wanted 1B prospect Tim Costo & RHP prospect John Roper. Jim Bowden refused to give up the Reds 2 prospects.

John Schuerholz, then GM of the Atlanta Braves traded for Vince Moore, Donnie Elliott and Melvin Nieves to San Diego for the All-Star 1B McGriff...

McGriff went on to hit .310-19-55 the rest of the 1993 Season with the Braves to win another pennant and further change the landscape of the National League...

I am all for trading "prospects"

Many wanted to trade Votto for Bedard. It doesn't always work out like McGriff. The problem with pulling things from the past is that hindsight is 20/20. Trying to project players and prospects isn't. In this case, I'd much rather take my chances on the prospects. The risk just isn't worth the prospects to me at the moment, especially when considering the starting staff is pretty deep. You may not have the ace everyone is looking for, but I don't think Greinke guarantees that either.

Right now, at least IMO, there are no players with the right price tags. When/if they appear, I'll be singing a different tune. For now, a trade for the sake of a trade is the last thing Jocketty should be looking for. He stood pat for the most part last year and it worked pretty well if you ask me.

SeeinRed
12-15-2010, 11:34 PM
Boras is a tool. When he opens his mouth, I close my ears for fear of having my intelligence insulted.

The Nationals overpaid big time and that WILL go down as one of the worst contracts ever.

I think the Reds are only going to step up for something big or something small. Not something dumb. Greinke? If it is fair. Reyes? If it is fair.

The Reds aren't going to overpay anymore, which rules out alot of these deals after a stupid deal like Werth's happens.

Could not agree more. Right now the market is all outta whack. The Reds are content, however that doesn't mean they won't look to improve if it is reasonable. At current prices in dollars and prospects, it just isn't worth it.

terminator
12-15-2010, 11:50 PM
QUOTE
"Oh, so Cincinnati's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?"


Unlike Washington, the Reds don't need to show players that they want to "win now," because they just made the playoffs and have a good team returning next year. I'd love improvements at SS and LF, but keeping intact a team that won 91 games isn't too shabby, especially when a lot of those guys are young and still have a lot of upside (Bruce, Stubbs, Bailey, Cueto, Chapman). Also, getting Volquez back will hopefully be the same as adding an ace to the rotation. Replacing Harang with Volquez should be a huge upgrade. Even if they stand pat, I think it will be addition by lack of subtraction.

Hondo
12-16-2010, 03:12 PM
Many wanted to trade Votto for Bedard. It doesn't always work out like McGriff. The problem with pulling things from the past is that hindsight is 20/20. Trying to project players and prospects isn't. In this case, I'd much rather take my chances on the prospects. The risk just isn't worth the prospects to me at the moment, especially when considering the starting staff is pretty deep. You may not have the ace everyone is looking for, but I don't think Greinke guarantees that either.

Right now, at least IMO, there are no players with the right price tags. When/if they appear, I'll be singing a different tune. For now, a trade for the sake of a trade is the last thing Jocketty should be looking for. He stood pat for the most part last year and it worked pretty well if you ask me.

I wouldn't have wanted to trade Votto for Bedard, but there is a big Difference...

Costo & Roper were minor league prospects... Votto had been called up and hit well, like .321 and was just like Larry Walker II without the wheels...

So I could see the hesitation in trading Votto...

Prospects like Roper & Costo are like Cozart, Frazier, etc...

Minor League prospects.

DaytonFlyer
12-16-2010, 03:24 PM
Boras' statements about stepping up are more like he got phone calls from his clients to see if Boras could get the Nats to overpay for THEM too.

SeeinRed
12-16-2010, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't have wanted to trade Votto for Bedard, but there is a big Difference...

Costo & Roper were minor league prospects... Votto had been called up and hit well, like .321 and was just like Larry Walker II without the wheels...

So I could see the hesitation in trading Votto...

Prospects like Roper & Costo are like Cozart, Frazier, etc...

Minor League prospects.

Cozart and Frazier aren't going to net the player you would likely want so it still renders the original example invalid. The point that I was making was that fan perception rarely plays into what makes a successful trade. Just because you or I would like to see a certain trade made to make us feel better, it doesn't mean that it will turn out for the best. It is up to Walt to determine what deals would work out for the Reds. He has determined so far that the trades that have been discussed have not met the criteria which he judges such things, and honestly I agree.

There is another way I look at this also. The Reds are in a very good position for a trade with the amount of quality prospects they have. Come the trading deadline, it could really play into their favor. Why overypay now, for what could be available for less at the trade deadline. Why give up the upperhand in negotiations by being hasty? There really is no reason for a trade just for the sake of it at this point. So, the Phillies have four aces. Yeah there are pieces that could look decent in the lineup. But why pay the outrages prices in money and talent that these pieces bring just to keep up with the Joneses in the offseason. If a team in the NL Central makes a substantial move, I could see it putting more pressure on the Reds to make a move. That hasn't happened.

This is why fans don't make trades. It makes for fun discussion for us, but it really doesn't serve a practical practice for teams in the Reds' position.

Hondo
12-16-2010, 04:42 PM
Cozart and Frazier aren't going to net the player you would likely want so it still renders the original example invalid. The point that I was making was that fan perception rarely plays into what makes a successful trade. Just because you or I would like to see a certain trade made to make us feel better, it doesn't mean that it will turn out for the best. It is up to Walt to determine what deals would work out for the Reds. He has determined so far that the trades that have been discussed have not met the criteria which he judges such things, and honestly I agree.

There is another way I look at this also. The Reds are in a very good position for a trade with the amount of quality prospects they have. Come the trading deadline, it could really play into their favor. Why overypay now, for what could be available for less at the trade deadline. Why give up the upperhand in negotiations by being hasty? There really is no reason for a trade just for the sake of it at this point. So, the Phillies have four aces. Yeah there are pieces that could look decent in the lineup. But why pay the outrages prices in money and talent that these pieces bring just to keep up with the Joneses in the offseason. If a team in the NL Central makes a substantial move, I could see it putting more pressure on the Reds to make a move. That hasn't happened.

This is why fans don't make trades. It makes for fun discussion for us, but it really doesn't serve a practical practice for teams in the Reds' position.

I wasn't trying to imply that Cozart and Frazier are "Jay Bruce, Desmond Jennings, Andrew Muclutchen" type prospects...

But I think you over pay at the Trade Deadline when all kinds of other teams could be in a position to be in the playoffs... I mean, the Brewers are looking into trading for Greinke, if the Brewers trade for Greinke, I will be even more upset...

I would hope the Reds trade Volquez and some prospects for Greinke...

SeeinRed
12-16-2010, 05:32 PM
I wasn't trying to imply that Cozart and Frazier are "Jay Bruce, Desmond Jennings, Andrew Muclutchen" type prospects...

But I think you over pay at the Trade Deadline when all kinds of other teams could be in a position to be in the playoffs... I mean, the Brewers are looking into trading for Greinke, if the Brewers trade for Greinke, I will be even more upset...

I would hope the Reds trade Volquez and some prospects for Greinke...


I don't know that the prices could be higher than they are now, and honestly if they are that high at the deadline I still don't make a trade for Greinke. I've heard the Brewers are supposedly in on Greinke, but that doesn't really change my mind on him right now. That may put pressure on Walt to do something, but even then it won't be on the scale of a Greinke trade, nor do I think it should be at the moment.

Come the trade deadline, if the Reds feel they need to make a move, they will be in a very good position. There aren't many teams with the ability to offer so many quality ML ready starting pitchers which is always a hot commodity come July. No need to jump now when waiting could pay off big time. I think that is exactly what Walt is thinking right now.

Then there is always the chance that one of the young starters fills the ace role next year. Cueto has improved every season, Homer has the ability, Volquez has the stuff to do it and then there is Chapman. Obviously, none are guaranteed to fill that role and it is a risky proposition, but if they do you have the chance to make a move for another need at the deadline instead. Those pieces aren't available right now, but may be come July.

It all comes down to the fact that the Reds don't have to do anything at the moment and are comfortable with what they have right now. The price just isn't right for now.

As for Volquez and prospects for Greinke, I don't do it. Just my opinion, but Volquez's value is low coming off surgery and there is no guarantee the Royals would even like Volquez in the trade. They may want Cueto instead. They may ask for a combination of starters. That is simply too much for Greinke when depth will probably prove much more valuable than anything throughout the season. I'm happy with the starters as they are right now. They may not be great, but there is very little fall off from front to back.

Hondo
12-16-2010, 05:56 PM
I don't know that the prices could be higher than they are now, and honestly if they are that high at the deadline I still don't make a trade for Greinke. I've heard the Brewers are supposedly in on Greinke, but that doesn't really change my mind on him right now. That may put pressure on Walt to do something, but even then it won't be on the scale of a Greinke trade, nor do I think it should be at the moment.

Come the trade deadline, if the Reds feel they need to make a move, they will be in a very good position. There aren't many teams with the ability to offer so many quality ML ready starting pitchers which is always a hot commodity come July. No need to jump now when waiting could pay off big time. I think that is exactly what Walt is thinking right now.

Then there is always the chance that one of the young starters fills the ace role next year. Cueto has improved every season, Homer has the ability, Volquez has the stuff to do it and then there is Chapman. Obviously, none are guaranteed to fill that role and it is a risky proposition, but if they do you have the chance to make a move for another need at the deadline instead. Those pieces aren't available right now, but may be come July.

It all comes down to the fact that the Reds don't have to do anything at the moment and are comfortable with what they have right now. The price just isn't right for now.

As for Volquez and prospects for Greinke, I don't do it. Just my opinion, but Volquez's value is low coming off surgery and there is no guarantee the Royals would even like Volquez in the trade. They may want Cueto instead. They may ask for a combination of starters. That is simply too much for Greinke when depth will probably prove much more valuable than anything throughout the season. I'm happy with the starters as they are right now. They may not be great, but there is very little fall off from front to back.

Well, Cy Young winners who are 27 and have a track record of throwing 200+ Innings aren't always available...

The guy had a 2.16 ERA in 2009 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE

I would think if this player is available and the Reds & whatever team he is on Match up, the trigger would be pulled...

Watch, the Cardinals, Brewers, Braves, Nationals, and Giants are all probably looking to acquire him. I would think if the Reds Trade for Greinke, the fans would come out to the Ball Park and Revenue would be up even higher than it already will be off of last years success...

Jack Burton
12-16-2010, 06:29 PM
I remember when dunn signed there, at his presser he said it wasn't about the money but about going to a team who he thought had a chance to win. Terrible press conference, he was stumbling over every word. He must not be a good liar.

SeeinRed
12-16-2010, 06:39 PM
Well, Cy Young winners who are 27 and have a track record of throwing 200+ Innings aren't always available...

The guy had a 2.16 ERA in 2009 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE

I would think if this player is available and the Reds & whatever team he is on Match up, the trigger would be pulled...

Watch, the Cardinals, Brewers, Braves, Nationals, and Giants are all probably looking to acquire him. I would think if the Reds Trade for Greinke, the fans would come out to the Ball Park and Revenue would be up even higher than it already will be off of last years success...


If you are looking to trade for him based on one year then thats where the difference in value comes in. He is a very good pitcher, but is very unlikely to post those 2009 stats in 2011. He would be the ace on the Reds staff, but that doesn't mean you go all out for him. It has to be done within reason and real world restraints. Of all the perspective suitors out there, there is no reason to get wrapped up in who is and who isn't in these rumors. Greinke will either end up staying in KC, or will end up somewhere else. If he can be had for reasonable cost, then I would be thrilled to have him. If he can't, I see no reason to fret about where he goes.

The feeling that the Reds should do whatever it takes to get him, whether to improve their team or keep him from a rival, is not how you build a team. Thats how you make bad deals and contracts. The Yankees can do that, the Reds can't. Fans get way too involved in what they deem "gestures" from their favorite team. These gestures mean little without a good base of talent and actual structure building for the future.

The Reds are doing all the right things to show they are building a sustainable model of success. Signing Bruce is the type of gesture that says they want to win. It shows they want to invest in the right pieces for the future as well as the present. I'd much rather be in the playoffs for the next 5-7 years with the chance to win the WS than have to blow things up in three years after contracts get out of control and players decline because you want to win it all the next two years.

As for the possibility of him landing on another team in the NL, the Brewers are trying to figure out how to get back to winning and the Cardinals are forced to think about possibly going on without Pujols. None of the other teams really matter to me. They are not focusing on sustaining success, just trying to have some before things could blow up on them.

The original premise of the thread was what would you like to see the Reds do to give the gesture that they will do what it takes to win. Obviously, it is all subject to opinion, and I definately see where you are coming from, but I just don't think they need to show me anything. The Reds have been working hard to become a world class organization in all ways. that include on and off the field. There is little arguing that they are lightyears beyond the Lindner era, and that effort shows me all I need to see. I have little doubt they are trying to build not just a winning team in any certain year, but a winning franchise. As a fan, I could not ask for anything more except that they do not give up on the future to win it all now.

bounty37h
12-17-2010, 12:01 PM
QUOTE

Werth's deal could help with recruiting going forward. Boras said he heard from other clients via phone or e-mail after Werth's contract was done.

"When Jayson signed, the first thing they all asked me: 'Oh, so Washington's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?' All those things. In the player community, when you gain that kind of street credit, you have taken a huge step, as far as what players will look at your organization and how they'll look at it differently."

QUOTE

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5923404

Besides the Reds signing Jayson Werth, (which is the misconception I think many of you here will zero in on - NOT THE CASE), I would like the Reds to do something, something that says...

"Oh, so Cincinnati's stepping up? They're taking those steps? They're looking to win now?"

Whether it be Trading for Grienke or Reyes, or Swapping Cordero for Nick Swisher, or Acquiring Matt Garza from the Rays for Yonder Alonso...

I wish the Reds would not be standing pat... The Time to Win is now.

I am calling total BS on Boras' comments that other players want to go to Washington now, think they are stepping up, etc. They have been around long enough to know the games being played by Washington, as well as the sliminess of Boras.

Hondo
12-17-2010, 01:53 PM
If you are looking to trade for him based on one year then thats where the difference in value comes in. He is a very good pitcher, but is very unlikely to post those 2009 stats in 2011. He would be the ace on the Reds staff, but that doesn't mean you go all out for him. It has to be done within reason and real world restraints. Of all the perspective suitors out there, there is no reason to get wrapped up in who is and who isn't in these rumors. Greinke will either end up staying in KC, or will end up somewhere else. If he can be had for reasonable cost, then I would be thrilled to have him. If he can't, I see no reason to fret about where he goes.

The feeling that the Reds should do whatever it takes to get him, whether to improve their team or keep him from a rival, is not how you build a team. Thats how you make bad deals and contracts. The Yankees can do that, the Reds can't. Fans get way too involved in what they deem "gestures" from their favorite team. These gestures mean little without a good base of talent and actual structure building for the future.

The Reds are doing all the right things to show they are building a sustainable model of success. Signing Bruce is the type of gesture that says they want to win. It shows they want to invest in the right pieces for the future as well as the present. I'd much rather be in the playoffs for the next 5-7 years with the chance to win the WS than have to blow things up in three years after contracts get out of control and players decline because you want to win it all the next two years.

As for the possibility of him landing on another team in the NL, the Brewers are trying to figure out how to get back to winning and the Cardinals are forced to think about possibly going on without Pujols. None of the other teams really matter to me. They are not focusing on sustaining success, just trying to have some before things could blow up on them.

The original premise of the thread was what would you like to see the Reds do to give the gesture that they will do what it takes to win. Obviously, it is all subject to opinion, and I definately see where you are coming from, but I just don't think they need to show me anything. The Reds have been working hard to become a world class organization in all ways. that include on and off the field. There is little arguing that they are lightyears beyond the Lindner era, and that effort shows me all I need to see. I have little doubt they are trying to build not just a winning team in any certain year, but a winning franchise. As a fan, I could not ask for anything more except that they do not give up on the future to win it all now.

My point is he posted a 2.16 ERA in the AMERICAN LEAGUE, as the Reds play in the "National League" I would think he could win some ERA titles over for the Reds, albeit maybe not at 2.16 ERA but the point is valid that his ERA could be much better in the NATIONAL LEAGUE...

Also, the Reds are at least 1 Starting Pitcher away from being solid in the Rotation, and they Need a Lead Off Hitter... I would be fine with Gomes in Left if they can have a defensive replacement for him in late Innings and improve the SS position...

Janish splits are terrible versus "right handed pitching"; he is a utility player and a defensive speacialist IMO...

So here come my MAIN point of the POST:

If the Reds were 1 player or 2 players away from being SOLID... 1/2 players away from really putting them over the top...

Wouldn't you want and expect them to address the "Needs" or the "Weakness" of the team?

I want them to. They had playoff games and the only team more depressing in the off season is the Texas Rangers... And thats because they put all theit eggs in one "Cliff Lee" Basket...

Hondo
12-17-2010, 02:02 PM
I am calling total BS on Boras' comments that other players want to go to Washington now, think they are stepping up, etc. They have been around long enough to know the games being played by Washington, as well as the sliminess of Boras.

I believe that other of his clients could have said those remarks in conversation. Just like his clients probably were wowed when Cliff Lee signed with the Phillies, they probably said something to Boras like, wow I didn't see that coming? or Woah, that Rotation in Philadelphia is going to be hard to beat? and 'Oh the Phillies are going for it all for REAL this year?'

I KNOW THAT BORAS IS NOT CLIFF LEE's AGENT.

My post is regarding coversation between Boras & his clients...

All of the people here that don't like Boras is probably because the Reds cannot afford any of his Clients in their Prime Free Agent Years...