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View Full Version : Mark Sheldon writes: Chapman to the pen 'for sure'



Will M
12-24-2010, 12:22 AM
I thought that this deserved its own thread. Sheldon states the following in an article describing how the Reds will replace Rhodes "In 15 relief appearances for the Reds after his Aug. 31 promotion, Chapman was 2-2 with a 2.03 ERA. In 13 1/3 innings, the 22-year-old left-hander had five walks and 19 strikeouts. The club was leaning toward having him back in the bullpen again before eventually making him a starter. This should cinch a bullpen role, for sure."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101223&content_id=16365998&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

I don't know about 'for sure' but I'll bet money Chapman is in the bullpen for 2011.

Superdude
12-24-2010, 02:00 AM
:( Not sure if this means anything or not, but it sure looks like Chapman's going to the pen based on everything we've heard.

Scrap Irony
12-24-2010, 02:07 AM
That would be a good move if Cordero is dealt. (Keep hoping for that Beltran for Cordero deal to be announced.) Otherwise, it seems as if Cincinnati is leaving a lot of potential help in a fairly minor role, as Chapman is, at best, going to end up an 8th inning set-up man or two-inning middle reliever, a la Logan Ondrusek.

OnBaseMachine
12-24-2010, 04:05 AM
Chapman needs to be given every opportunity possible during spring training to win a spot in the starting rotation, IMO.

kpresidente
12-24-2010, 04:18 AM
Pedro Martinez started his career in the bullpen, too.

TheNext44
12-24-2010, 04:49 AM
This is pure conjecture by Sheldon.

He claims "The Reds" have wanted to keep Chapman in the pen, but IIRC, Jocketty has been quoted very recently saying that Chapman will start ST as a starter. It only was Baker who expressed that he wanted Chapman for the pen.

Maybe Sheldon knows something that he has not reported, but I'm not convinced he's right on this.

mth123
12-24-2010, 05:14 AM
Starting out in the pen is a fine way to break in, but most guys who do that have logged the necessary innings to transition back to starter. Chapman really doesn't have the inning base to go out there and pitch even 150 innings and to get it he needs a full year starting in AAA. Adding him to the big league team was a good win now move in 2010 and he performed well, but cutting short his 2010 season in the rotation at AAA has set back his preparation time. The Reds have created a Joba situation here. Chapman is an asset to the big league team right now in a relief role, but to be the foundation player he was inteneded to be, the rotation is where he belongs and to get there he needs to start. From here it looks exactly as it looked at the end of 2010. Chapman's role in 2011 is as the successor to Rhodes as late inning lefty with a transition to closer when Cordero leaves. 2012 may just see Chapman settle in as a 9th inning intimidator with guys like Joseph, Valiquette and maybe Mace Thurman ready to be the set-up lefty group.

Chapman is on a pretty good path to becoming an even more valuable late inning arm. Its a bit of a tough spot for the Reds. He's really the only guy available for the job in 2011 and it doesn't look like the team has the cash to bring in somebody else even if they were inclined to back Chapman up a bit and let him start in AAA. He can be the leader of a fairly economical pen for the next several years by just keeping him on this path. Its a tough choice to make but money seems to be dictating the relief route IMO. There are worse things than juicing the crowd up every night by the possibility of a guy coming into a close game throwing 100 MPH and shutting the door. The 100 MPH hype would probably be a thing of the past with Chapman as a starter.

Redhook
12-24-2010, 09:14 AM
Chapman really doesn't have the inning base to go out there and pitch even 150 innings and to get it he needs a full year starting in AAA.

Chapman may achieve 150 this year out of the pen with Dusty at the helm. :D

BTW, good post.

Reds4Life
12-24-2010, 09:42 AM
Chapman needs to be given every opportunity possible during spring training to win a spot in the starting rotation, IMO.

I agree. You don't sign a guy like Chapman, and pay him a lot of money, and then use him out of the pen. If he's ready to be a starter, find a spot for him in the rotation. You can find pen fodder on the FA market for a respectable price, 100mph+ throwing leftys you can't.

icehole3
12-24-2010, 10:37 AM
I agree. You don't sign a guy like Chapman, and pay him a lot of money, and then use him out of the pen. If he's ready to be a starter, find a spot for him in the rotation. You can find pen fodder on the FA market for a respectable price, 100mph+ throwing leftys you can't.

I agree 100%, until I hear Walt say he's in the bullpen Im figuring Chapman has a shot at the starting rotation and no one can convince me he's going into the bullpen

Eric_the_Red
12-24-2010, 11:00 AM
Until Chapman shows he can get ML hitters out while pitching with runners on base, then I'm fine with him in the bullpen. Pitching in relief for a couple years worked for this guy named Johan Santana too, in addition to Pedro.

Ghosts of 1990
12-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Stuff is pretty fluid until April and can change at the professional level in sports. Nothing would surprise me at this point for things to be anounced and change several times from there.

VR
12-24-2010, 05:30 PM
I want Chapman in a much higher leverage role than as the 7th/8th inning reliever. Either make him the closer, or nurse him into starting.

pahster
12-25-2010, 03:54 PM
Until Chapman shows he can get ML hitters out while pitching with runners on base, then I'm fine with him in the bullpen. Pitching in relief for a couple years worked for this guy named Johan Santana too, in addition to Pedro.

Those guys had already built up the number of innings they were able to pitch. Chapman hasn't done that yet and indeed didn't get to last year because of the move to the bullpen.

TheNext44
12-25-2010, 05:24 PM
How much did he pitch in Cuba. Was he a starter or reliever there?

Oxilon
12-25-2010, 06:40 PM
IIRC, he wasn't pitching that well as a starter in Louisville last year until he was moved to the pen. I want to see him in the rotation as much as the next guy, but I'd rather he be successful in some function than not successful at starting pitching.

mth123
12-25-2010, 07:50 PM
How much did he pitch in Cuba. Was he a starter or reliever there?

Understand that there is no way of knowing how reliable the stats are, but IIRC his seasonal high was 119 IP.

Phhhl
12-26-2010, 01:58 AM
The Reds need to leverage this weapon as best they can to win ballgames right now. They are paying him like a big league pitcher, so the time for development is a ship that has almost already sailed. Who wouldn't love to see Aroldis become a premier top of the rotation starter next season? Is that realistic? Maybe, maybe not. If not, I still do not want a guy who throws harder than any pitcher ever to play the game getting his outs in Louisville at any point in 2011.

With the starting rotation the Reds can run out there even without Chapman as part of it, the more they can do to shorten ballgames the better. The 1990 Reds are proof positive. Chapman, Masset, Bray, Ondrusek and Cordero could easily be one of the best bullpens in the majors in 2011, and just as important as anyone's starting staff when all is said and done. To make a blanket statement to the effect that Chapman has to start to justify the money they are paying him is short sighted. The only important thing is to utilize his salary to convert as many major league victories as he can possibly own.

I don't see a wrong way of approaching Chapman in 2011, other than to demote him for "seasoning" to Louisville. The Reds are paying him like a major leaguer, so they need to utilize him like a major leaguer. His presence is costing them 6 mil that could be allocated to other areas of need, so to treat him like a kid drafted out of high school and years away from arbitration is laughable. He clearly needs to be a key contributor if the Reds are to repeat as NL Central champs in 2011, no matter how he is utilized. A compelling argument could be made for multiple roles based on his phenomenal talent, with a measurable amount of time at the outset of the 2011 season to ease his way into his ultimate role.

I don't think he has anything to prove at all at lower levels.

mth123
12-26-2010, 04:52 AM
The Reds need to leverage this weapon as best they can to win ballgames right now. They are paying him like a big league pitcher, so the time for development is a ship that has almost already sailed. Who wouldn't love to see Aroldis become a premier top of the rotation starter next season? Is that realistic? Maybe, maybe not. If not, I still do not want a guy who throws harder than any pitcher ever to play the game getting his outs in Louisville at any point in 2011.

With the starting rotation the Reds can run out there even without Chapman as part of it, the more they can do to shorten ballgames the better. The 1990 Reds are proof positive. Chapman, Masset, Bray, Ondrusek and Cordero could easily be one of the best bullpens in the majors in 2011, and just as important as anyone's starting staff when all is said and done. To make a blanket statement to the effect that Chapman has to start to justify the money they are paying him is short sighted. The only important thing is to utilize his salary to convert as many major league victories as he can possibly own.

I don't see a wrong way of approaching Chapman in 2011, other than to demote him for "seasoning" to Louisville. The Reds are paying him like a major leaguer, so they need to utilize him like a major leaguer. His presence is costing them 6 mil that could be allocated to other areas of need, so to treat him like a kid drafted out of high school and years away from arbitration is laughable. He clearly needs to be a key contributor if the Reds are to repeat as NL Central champs in 2011, no matter how he is utilized. A compelling argument could be made for multiple roles based on his phenomenal talent, with a measurable amount of time at the outset of the 2011 season to ease his way into his ultimate role.

I don't think he has anything to prove at all at lower levels.

Chapman will make $2.25 Million on 2011. $1 Million in Salary and $1.25 in a signing bonus installment payable in November 2011.

From a dollars standpoint, delaying when Chapman qualifies for arb will actually save the Reds some money ($8 to $10 Million I'd guess). If Chapman spends say 4 to 5 months starting at AAA followed by a late season call to the major league pen, not only will he be positioned to be a full-time starter in 2012, but it will prevent arbitration after 2013. If Chapman stays in the big leagues from here on out, his 2014 Salary guarantee of $3 Million converts to a signing bonus and the Reds will have to go to arb with him (an award likley to be $8 to $10 Million if Chapman has spent a couple years closing). Four + months in AAA would probably prevent Chapman from qualifying, his $3 Million guarantee would remain intact and the arb process avoided. Making Chapman a starter in AAA for four months not only might be bettter long term for Chapman in the rotation, but better for the team financially in the long term.

Short term, the Reds are probably better off using Chapman as the late inning lefty in 2011 with a transition to closer in 2012 while utilizing the money earmarked for the Rhodes slot in 2011 and the Cordero savings in 2012 to improve the team elsewhere. Since, I think that 2011 and 2012 is the Reds best opportunity to win, I'd vote for Chapman in the pen and to worry about 2013 and beyond later.

Eric_the_Red
12-26-2010, 08:08 AM
Those guys had already built up the number of innings they were able to pitch. Chapman hasn't done that yet and indeed didn't get to last year because of the move to the bullpen.

Really?

Johan Santana's IP:
Minors
97: 80.2
98: 93.1
99: 160.1
ML
00: 86
01: 43.2
02: 157 (48.2 minors/108.1 ML)
03: 158.1

Last year Chapman pitched a combined 109 innings. I would handle him exactly the way the Twins handled Santana, and pray for similar results.

Let's look at Santana's G/GS splits in his first few years with the Twins:
00: 30/5
01: 15/4
02: 27/14
03: 45/18

Starting in 2004, Santana was a full-time starter. I'm not saying move Chapman from the bullpen to starting for 4 years, but I don't see why a year or two would hurt, especially given the depth of starting talent the team has.

Let him be a spot starter when injuries come up. Instead of bringing up a starter from the minors, bring up someone to take his place in the bullpen temporarily.

Also, if used properly, Chapman could have a much bigger role on the team pitching in innings 6-8 than Cordero does in the 9th.

mth123
12-26-2010, 08:22 AM
Really?

Johan Santana's IP:
Minors
97: 80.2
98: 93.1
99: 160.1
ML
00: 86
01: 43.2
02: 157 (48.2 minors/108.1 ML)
03: 158.1

Last year Chapman pitched a combined 109 innings. I would handle him exactly the way the Twins handled Santana, and pray for similar results.

Let's look at Santana's G/GS splits in his first few years with the Twins:
00: 30/5
01: 15/4
02: 27/14
03: 45/18

Starting in 2004, Santana was a full-time starter. I'm not saying move Chapman from the bullpen to starting for 4 years, but I don't see why a year or two would hurt, especially given the depth of starting talent the team has.

Let him be a spot starter when injuries come up. Instead of bringing up a starter from the minors, bring up someone to take his place in the bullpen temporarily.

Also, if used properly, Chapman could have a much bigger role on the team pitching in innings 6-8 than Cordero does in the 9th.

Santana had that season of 160 innings in the minors. Chapman needs a year like that first.

Eric_the_Red
12-26-2010, 08:30 AM
Santana had that season of 160 innings in the minors. Chapman needs a year like that first.

I'm not sure what point you are arguing. I'm saying to start him in the pen. Are you saying he needs to pitch more innings before going to the bullpen? Not sure I follow you.

Last year Chapman pitched more innings than Santana did in four of his first five professional years.

mth123
12-26-2010, 08:49 AM
I'm not sure what point you are arguing. I'm saying to start him in the pen. Are you saying he needs to pitch more innings before going to the bullpen? Not sure I follow you.

Last year Chapman pitched more innings than Santana did in four of his first five professional years.

No. He's ready for the pen right now. But if he ever is going to be in the rotation, its going to be difficult to move him in w/o a season like that under his belt. This seems very similar to the situation that the Yankees are in with Joba. He was so good, he was promoted before getting his inning base under him and every attempt to move him to the rotation since has met with mixed results. The potential for injury is increased as well.

I've reached the point of just leaving Chapman in the pen. He saves some cash this year by taking Rhodes spot (that can be used to add other pieces) and next year he would seem like a logical choice to move in for Cordero (saving a lot more cash). Since I think that 2011 and 2012 are the team's best shots at winning (While Rolen and Phillips are still around, Arroyo is still decent and the Votto/Bruce/Cueto/Stubbs/Wood/Bailey core is still affordable). By 2013, I'm guessing that the Reds will be breaking this team up and I'd like to see a run at the World Series before then. Leaving Chapman in the pen instead of backing him up for a move to the rotation seems to fit going for it over the next 2 or 3 years.

pahster
12-26-2010, 08:51 AM
Really?

Johan Santana's IP:
Minors
97: 80.2
98: 93.1
99: 160.1
ML
00: 86
01: 43.2
02: 157 (48.2 minors/108.1 ML)
03: 158.1


Really. Look at his 1999 season.


I'm not sure what point you are arguing. I'm saying to start him in the pen. Are you saying he needs to pitch more innings before going to the bullpen? Not sure I follow you.

Last year Chapman pitched more innings than Santana did in four of his first five professional years.

I won't speak for mth, but I'm saying that if the organization wants Chapman to be a starting pitcher, having him spend most of the year in the bullpen isn't going to help him become a starter. He needs to increase the number of innings he's able to pitch and throwing a couple of innings a week isn't going to help in that regard.

Eric_the_Red
12-26-2010, 11:35 AM
I won't speak for mth, but I'm saying that if the organization wants Chapman to be a starting pitcher, having him spend most of the year in the bullpen isn't going to help him become a starter. He needs to increase the number of innings he's able to pitch and throwing a couple of innings a week isn't going to help in that regard.

I think if Chapman goes to the pen and is used for multiple innings in relief, plus the occasional spot start, his innings will increase.

My biggest gripe would be if he is pitching in relief in Louisville again. He needs to face ML hitters. I just don't know that he is ready to face them for 5-6 innings every fifth day yet.

edabbs44
01-03-2011, 09:52 PM
"I would think so, yeah," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. "The plans are to keep Chapman in the bullpen right now. We'll take a long look at Dontrelle Willis also."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110103&content_id=16385142&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

reds44
01-04-2011, 01:13 AM
How many lefties do you need in a bullpen? If Chapman is the closer and Bray and Willis are in the pen, okay. You're going to have three situational lefties, though? Doesn't that seem like a bit of overkill?

I actually like Chapman in the pen. I just want him to be the closer.

Slyder
01-04-2011, 01:25 AM
Starting out in the pen is a fine way to break in, but most guys who do that have logged the necessary innings to transition back to starter. Chapman really doesn't have the inning base to go out there and pitch even 150 innings and to get it he needs a full year starting in AAA. Adding him to the big league team was a good win now move in 2010 and he performed well, but cutting short his 2010 season in the rotation at AAA has set back his preparation time. The Reds have created a Joba situation here. Chapman is an asset to the big league team right now in a relief role, but to be the foundation player he was inteneded to be, the rotation is where he belongs and to get there he needs to start. From here it looks exactly as it looked at the end of 2010. Chapman's role in 2011 is as the successor to Rhodes as late inning lefty with a transition to closer when Cordero leaves. 2012 may just see Chapman settle in as a 9th inning intimidator with guys like Joseph, Valiquette and maybe Mace Thurman ready to be the set-up lefty group.

Chapman is on a pretty good path to becoming an even more valuable late inning arm. Its a bit of a tough spot for the Reds. He's really the only guy available for the job in 2011 and it doesn't look like the team has the cash to bring in somebody else even if they were inclined to back Chapman up a bit and let him start in AAA. He can be the leader of a fairly economical pen for the next several years by just keeping him on this path. Its a tough choice to make but money seems to be dictating the relief route IMO. There are worse things than juicing the crowd up every night by the possibility of a guy coming into a close game throwing 100 MPH and shutting the door. The 100 MPH hype would probably be a thing of the past with Chapman as a starter.

All I will say is that closers don't matter if you don't have the starters to get the game to them. Chapman needs to start and build the innings up. After AAA season is over if the Reds are still in it bring him up and help down the stretch.

I don't like limiting his value to being strictly a closer when he could possibly be an absolute devastating ace. If he fails as a major league starter THEN you Gagne/Wood him. Its not like we have him for the minimum until he hits arby.

Will M
01-04-2011, 08:01 AM
The 2011 team is better with Chapman in the pen. I suspect he would only have given us ~150 innings as a starter. Plus we already have six viable starters. Now, assuming he develops, by 2013 the team would be better with Chapman as a TOR starter than as a closer. I personally don't mind having Chapman go to the pen for 2011 but I understand why others do.

A seven man pen is Cordero, Chapman (L), Massett, Bray (L), Ondrusek plus two others. We have lots & lots of real pitchers vying for those last two spots. IMO the bullpen will be a bright spot for 2011.

redsfandan
01-04-2011, 11:10 AM
I want Chapman in a much higher leverage role than as the 7th/8th inning reliever. Either make him the closer, or nurse him into starting.
Closing would be the higher leverage role? Are ya sure?

Chapman needs to be given every opportunity possible during spring training to win a spot in the starting rotation, IMO.
I wouldn't get your hopes up. He hasn't done enough as a starter so far and he would need at least a couple of the other starters to fall by the wayside for him to see time as starter for the Reds. Besides, he needs time as a starter in the minors first before he can be counted as a starter in the bigs. For now, he can make improvements in the Reds bullpen and he'll be able to help the Reds more in 2011 in that role. I'm ok with that as long as it's not permanent.

Scrap Irony
01-04-2011, 11:18 AM
How many lefties do you need in a bullpen? If Chapman is the closer and Bray and Willis are in the pen, okay. You're going to have three situational lefties, though? Doesn't that seem like a bit of overkill?

I actually like Chapman in the pen. I just want him to be the closer.

Disagree. If Chapman is used as THE high-leverage arm in the pen (and perhaps used for multiple innings with rest between), then it's possible he becomes a Mike Marshall type impact middle reliever, circa 1972. Obviously, that would be a best-case scenario; however, he could stem a lot of bleeding by coming into games in middle and late situations and being as effective as last season.

Few teams in baseball-- perhaps none-- would have that large a middle relief hammer (and used, almost by accident). (According to sabermetrics and modern baseball analysis.)

Caveat Emperor
01-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Chapman in the bullpen is a waste of team talent and team financial resources. If they think his future in the majors is as a bullpen pitcher, they need to trade him now to get quality prospects for areas of greater organizational need (MI and CI) and/or to free up his money to fix team holes elsewhere.

If he's not a bullpen pitcher, you're wasting valuable time in his development cycle by allowing him to continue pitching in that role. Bullpen pitchers usually focus on 2 pitches, and unless you want to turn the kid into a fastball-slider only guy, he needs to be on the mound as a starter refining his change up and/or curveball.

Walt doesn't make a lot of dumb decisions -- this would be an extraordinarily dumb one, IMO.

Scrap Irony
01-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Starters began in the bullpen for almost 100 years of baseball history.

As a bullpen member, he can learn at the major league level. (And has the talent and stuff to do so.) Chapman can develop a third pitch in the pen, if needed or in side sessions with coaches. In short, if he's amenable to work, he can both help the club and work toward being a starter next season.

gonelong
01-04-2011, 01:18 PM
Walt doesn't make a lot of dumb decisions -- this would be an extraordinarily dumb one, IMO.

Walt's had some success with staring guys out in the pen and then moving them into the rotation. It wouldn't bother me to see him work out of the pen.

As a starter, the guy has a short shelf life. Anybody that throws that hard is a high injury risk IMO.

GL

Ron Madden
01-04-2011, 01:33 PM
I think Chapman needs to be stretched out, he needs to build up his IP to be an effective starter.

mdccclxix
01-04-2011, 01:47 PM
What's it take to stretch a guy out mid season? Say there's a spot for him in July, can he make the switch to starter?

Caveat Emperor
01-04-2011, 01:51 PM
Starters began in the bullpen for almost 100 years of baseball history.

History, meet free agency and limited payrolls for small market teams. The Reds are paying Chapman starter money for the next 5 years; he needs to deliver value AS a starter for the contract to be worthwhile.

And, Chapman did begin in the bullpen. The time is now to slot him into his future role (starter), or trade him while his value is sky-high.

westofyou
01-04-2011, 01:54 PM
History, meet free agency and limited payrolls for small market teams.

And, Chapman did begin in the bullpen. The time is now to slot him into his future role (starter), or trade him while his value is sky-high.

Why the urgency?

The team could use an impact arm in the BP, they are deep at the starter position and Chapman is an asset.

Why the urgency?

Nothing is written in stone anyway, but the assumption that he has to start or be traded is one that seems lacks any faith in the process.

Caveat Emperor
01-04-2011, 02:02 PM
Why the urgency?

The team could use an impact arm in the BP, they are deep at the starter position and Chapman is an asset.

Why the urgency?

Nothing is written in stone anyway, but the assumption that he has to start or be traded is one that seems lacks any faith in the process.

Using Chapman as an "impact arm" in the bullpen is like using a sack full of diamonds to prop up the short leg on the kitchen table.

If he's #1 starter material, he should be groomed to be a #1 starter -- not being a two-pitch pitcher one inning at a time every few nights. The Reds have him under club control for 6 years of service time, 5 years of actual time at cost-certainty. Why waste that time pitching him as a setup guy then re-training him to pitch as a starter? That seems like a lot of wasted motion and time.

And, what I said was "If they think his future in the majors is as a bullpen pitcher, they need to trade him now." That's true. Mine value out of him from a team that thinks he can start. The Reds don't have the budget to pay a setup guy starter money.

TheNext44
01-04-2011, 02:07 PM
Why the urgency?

The team could use an impact arm in the BP, they are deep at the starter position and Chapman is an asset.

Why the urgency?

Nothing is written in stone anyway, but the assumption that he has to start or be traded is one that seems lacks any faith in the process.

My fear is that if is reliever this year, he will be a reliever his whole career, or at best, lose 2012 to build up his endurance as a starter.

I just can't see him relieve this year, and start next year, when he never has had a full year of starting under his belt. If he tries it, I think the Reds risk losing him to injury at a very young age.

edabbs44
01-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Using Chapman as an "impact arm" in the bullpen is like using a sack full of diamonds to prop up the short leg on the kitchen table.

If he's #1 starter material, he should be groomed to be a #1 starter -- not being a two-pitch pitcher one inning at a time every few nights. The Reds have him under club control for 6 years of service time, 5 years of actual time at cost-certainty. Why waste that time pitching him as a setup guy then re-training him to pitch as a starter? That seems like a lot of wasted motion and time.

And, what I said was "If they think his future in the majors is as a bullpen pitcher, they need to trade him now." That's true. Mine value out of him from a team that thinks he can start. The Reds don't have the budget to pay a setup guy starter money.

Is he really being paid starter money? Maybe #3 starter money.

And if he stays in the bullpen, he will be the closer in 2012. He won't be setting up. And he'll be making half what Cordero makes.

Caveat Emperor
01-04-2011, 02:14 PM
Is he really being paid starter money? Maybe #3 starter money.

And if he stays in the bullpen, he will be the closer in 2012. He won't be setting up. And he'll be making half what Cordero makes.

Half of what Cordero makes is still too much money for this team to pay a closer, IMO.

westofyou
01-04-2011, 02:18 PM
I think he'll eventually end up in the rotation, but let's not pretend that he doesn't have a few control issues currently and that needs to be worked out.

Couple him with Bailey and Volquez and that's 3 guys with the possibility of a 1.35 whip in the rotation.

As for his salary, if he's not affordable by any of your standards than that's really something that has more to do with your construct of what a team is, not the Reds. Personally I can't wring my hands over what sort of salary value is derived from a player, I can't control that.

edabbs44
01-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Half of what Cordero makes is still too much money for this team to pay a closer, IMO.

If the team is legit and Chapman is dominant as a reliever/closer, then $6MM is fine by me. But the other thing to remember is that the contract is structured weird. There are some short-term deferrals built in along with a signing bonus. So his number year by year is a bit smaller.

This has become somewhat more commonplace as of late. Texas is dealing with the same thing, with an equally as electric youngster.

mth123
01-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Regarding Chapman's cost, he'll make a salary of $1 Million in 2011. He'll get an installment payment of $1.5 Million on his signing bonus in November. After his contract ends, he gets $1.25 Million each November from 2014 through 2020, so its possible the Reds are making a payment toward funding that, but his total cost in 2011 is $3.5 Million tops I'm guessing. More likely, it's less than that.

dougdirt
01-05-2011, 12:59 AM
I still can't believe the Reds would be this short sighted. If Chapman stays in the bullpen this year, then he is only able to throw 155 innings in 2012 and then 185 in 2013 IF they ever make the move to starter. It simply does not make sense to take a guy with this talent and put it in the bullpen at this stage. If he is 25/26 and still can't cut it as a starter, by all means, go for it. But at this point? It wastes his talent and ultimately either sets back his full time starter date or risks his injury if the team just decides to let him throw a full starters workload at some point without building up to it over the two years he should get to do so given that his most IP in a season is 125.

TheNext44
01-05-2011, 02:04 AM
I still can't believe the Reds would be this short sighted. If Chapman stays in the bullpen this year, then he is only able to throw 155 innings in 2012 and then 185 in 2013 IF they ever make the move to starter. It simply does not make sense to take a guy with this talent and put it in the bullpen at this stage. If he is 25/26 and still can't cut it as a starter, by all means, go for it. But at this point? It wastes his talent and ultimately either sets back his full time starter date or risks his injury if the team just decides to let him throw a full starters workload at some point without building up to it over the two years he should get to do so given that his most IP in a season is 125.

I agree with you about the stupidity of this move. But maybe they plan on making him the 5th starter and limiting his innings as a starter in 2012 and 2013? The downside to that is if he's lights out as a starter and there's temptation to pitch him more often.

Ron Madden
01-05-2011, 03:23 AM
I agree with you about the stupidity of this move. But maybe they plan on making him the 5th starter and limiting his innings as a starter in 2012 and 2013? The downside to that is if he's lights out as a starter and there's temptation to pitch him more often.

It doesn't matter if he's a 5th starter or a number 1 or 2. he needs to accumulate more IP.

Starting Pitchers need their IP to be stretched out. Sure there have been plenty of guys who began their big league careers in the bullpen and were later moved to the starting rotation but most of the ones that stayed healthy had built up more IP in collage and the minor leagues than they did in the bullpen.

mth123
01-05-2011, 04:12 AM
If winning in 2011 is the goal, Chapman is more likely to be a key contributor taking over for Rhodes than as a starter. He's not really prepared to start and that 100 MPH stuff would become 95 to 98 if he has to go through a line-up 3 times. His secondary stuff is a work in progress and even with his fastball, I wonder how successful he could be without other stuff to complement it. Add the lack of an inning base and he's not likely to be a real viable starter in 2011.

Its possible he's just one of those guys where none of that matters, but if we're trying to maximize 2011, we know he can be an impact guy in the 8th inning. We tend to minimize the importance of middle relievers, but guys who can routinely shut the door in game situations make a bigger impact on the the team's record the raw stats may indicate. I'd guess that the Reds would have finsihed back in the pack without the job that Arthur Rhodes did in 2010.

Ron Madden
01-05-2011, 04:30 AM
If winning in 2011 is the goal, Chapman is more likely to be a key contributor taking over for Rhodes than as a starter. He's not really prepared to start and that 100 MPH stuff would become 95 to 98 if he has to go through a line-up 3 times. His secondary stuff is a work in progress and even with his fastball, I wonder how successful he could be without other stuff to complement it. Add the lack of an inning base and he's not likley to be a real viable starter in 2011.

Its possible he's just one of those guys where none of that matters, but if we're trying to maximize 2011, we know he can be an impact guy in the 8th inning. We tend to minimize the importance of middle relievers, but guys who can routinely shut the door in game situations make a bigger impact on the the team's record the raw stats may indicate. I'd guess that the Reds would have finsihed back in the pack without the job that Arthur Rhodes did in 2010.


I understand what you're saying but doesn't that go against the grain of what the Reds and most of the members here have been preaching?

We've been told the goal is to be competitive for years to come and the plan is not to mortgage the future for short term gain.

I'm sorry but I believe this could very well be mortgaging the future of both Aroldis Chapman and the Cincinnati Reds for short term gain.

JMHO.

mth123
01-05-2011, 06:22 AM
I understand what you're saying but doesn't that go against the grain of what the Reds and most of the members here have been preaching?

We've been told the goal is to be competitive for years to come and the plan is not to mortgage the future for short term gain.

I'm sorry but I believe this could very well be mortgaging the future of both Aroldis Chapman and the Cincinnati Reds for short term gain.

JMHO.

This path was set last season when Chapman was moved to the pen in AAA. I was against it then, but it did help the team and I do see some logic.

One possibility is that the Reds know that their best opportunity is when all the core kids are still cheap enough to stay together and Rolen and Phillips are still on board and productive. That is 2011 and 2012, so they are gettting the most from Chapman during that period that they can. After that, Chapman will be in his mid-20s and he can make that inning jump with much less risk to his arm and can make the move to the rotation. 2013 will likely see a retooled and hopefully still competitive team. At that point Rolen and Phillips will likely be gone, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez and Votto will all be in their walk years and while some may be exteneded, others are probably shipped off to get replacements. The Reds have a lot of depth in their pipeline, but I don't think they have the type of talent to fill these main contributor vacancies from within. Chapman probably rises to the top of the rotation at that point, Bruce and probably Stubbs are still on board and kids like Mesoraco and hopefully by then Hamilton and Y-Rod will become part of the core. Maybe not, but it could happen. In that scenario, Chapman is maximized as a key contributor in the pen with the current group and after that still becomes the TOR arm that the reds intended for the next generation of the team.

Chip R
01-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Starters began in the bullpen for almost 100 years of baseball history.

As a bullpen member, he can learn at the major league level. (And has the talent and stuff to do so.) Chapman can develop a third pitch in the pen, if needed or in side sessions with coaches. In short, if he's amenable to work, he can both help the club and work toward being a starter next season.


You have a good point but usually those starters weren't LOOGIES or short relievers. They were long men who came in and pitched for 3-4 innings. They didn't have much pressure on them because their team was usually behind by several runs. Back in the old days when they had 4 man rotations, they would sometimes spot start when their team needed a 5th starter.

If Chapman is going to be used in those high leverage situations like he was last year, it's going to be fastball and slider and that's all she wrote. They aren't going to trust him using a change up in a game that means something. They gave Mike Leake 140 IP last year and he had no professional experience whatsoever.

Scrap Irony
01-05-2011, 11:14 AM
So he'll learn a third pitch on the side. Not a big deal. That's what guys did for years before Chapman. I fail to see how it's damaging his future.

As a reliever, he could come in as a high leverage reliever and stay in for a couple innings. He could also spot start, as needed. (Though I'd likely to that with the loser of the fifth starter spot between Bailey, Leake, and Wood.) Think of it like this: Bailey starts against San Francisco, but struggles to find his release point and leaves the game in the fifth, with one out and two on. Aubrey Huff is up to bat. Baker could bring in any number of relievers. If he calls on Chapman, the kid could parlay that high-leverage situation into not only the rest of the fifth inning, but also the sixth and perhaps the seventh, alowing Baker the opportunity to use only one set-up guy, Chapman, and the closer.

Chapman gets 2.2 IP and, if you like, can throw his third pitch after getting out of the fifth.

If used like this, he could very well log between 120-150 innings in 2011, making him a safe bet to go up to 150-180 innings next season (2012) as a fifth starter, then the magical 200 inning mark in 2013.

I realize the downside to this is that he could perhaps dominate earlier than expected and be wasted as a dominant reliever rather than as a dominant starter. But the relief role actually protects Chapman from possible overuse and allows him to get his feet wet in a way that would also benefit the Reds major league team and make Chapman a difference-maker, impact player this season.

Mario-Rijo
01-05-2011, 01:09 PM
I understand what you're saying but doesn't that go against the grain of what the Reds and most of the members here have been preaching?

We've been told the goal is to be competitive for years to come and the plan is not to mortgage the future for short term gain.

I'm sorry but I believe this could very well be mortgaging the future of both Aroldis Chapman and the Cincinnati Reds for short term gain.

JMHO.

Cha-Ching! :thumbup:

TheNext44
01-05-2011, 01:36 PM
It doesn't matter if he's a 5th starter or a number 1 or 2. he needs to accumulate more IP.

Starting Pitchers need their IP to be stretched out. Sure there have been plenty of guys who began their big league careers in the bullpen and were later moved to the starting rotation but most of the ones that stayed healthy had built up more IP in collage and the minor leagues than they did in the bullpen.

I'm just wondering if the plan is to stretch him out in the majors as a fifth starter?

Fifth starters usually only pitch around 150 innings a season. If Chapman were the team's fifth starter, they would just limit his innings and shut him down late in the year if he was pitching too much.

Caveat Emperor
01-05-2011, 01:54 PM
So he'll learn a third pitch on the side. Not a big deal. That's what guys did for years before Chapman. I fail to see how it's damaging his future.

Every year of service time he burns being wasted as a mid-inning guy is one less year of service time the Reds can have him for as a potentially dominant starter.

And yes, I absolutely view using a potential ace as a mid-inning guy as a waste of everyone's time. If you need a better bullpen, go acqurie bullpen help.

REDREAD
01-05-2011, 02:44 PM
History, meet free agency and limited payrolls for small market teams. The Reds are paying Chapman starter money for the next 5 years; he needs to deliver value AS a starter for the contract to be worthwhile.

And, Chapman did begin in the bullpen. The time is now to slot him into his future role (starter), or trade him while his value is sky-high.

Considering how much money we had to pay Cordero, I don't necessarily think that Chapman in the bullpen is a waste. There's been some setup man that are paid 6 million/year.

The question is this.. Are we better off with Leake in the rotation and Chapman in the pen OR are we better off with someone else in the pen and one of Chapman/Leake in the minors?

I think too much emphasis is put into these formulas that say Chapman only pitched X innings last year, so his innings are capped the following year.
He could be in the bullpen all year this season, and still work on his secondary pitches, and prepare himself to be a starter next year.

Also, it's not a given that he will become a true #1 starter. It's really not a given that he'd be one of the top 5 starters next year.

Superdude
01-05-2011, 04:15 PM
Now that Chapman's likely to be airing it out all year long, what's everyone prediction for his top speed at the end of the year? I'm calling 105.4

Will M
01-14-2011, 03:16 AM
I believe the NL Central may be a tight three team race this year. In light of this I was thinking about what a bullpen with Chapman versus a bullpen without Chapman might mean for the Reds.

Bullpen A:
1) Cordero
2) Massett
3) Chapman (L)
4) Ondrusek
5) Bray (L)
6) & 7) choose two between guys like Burton, Lecure, Willis (L), Herrera (L), Maloney (L), Arredondo, Fisher, Smith, etc.

Bullpen B:
1) Cordero
2) Massett
3) Bray (L)
4) Ondrusek
5) 6) & 7) choose three between guys like Burton, Lecure, Willis (L), Herrera (L), Maloney (L), Arredondo, Fisher, Smith, etc. One will be a 2nd lefty.

Bullpen A is much better than bullpen B. Its interesting to see just how well things get by adding a star player. By adding Chapman you add another late inning reliever, send Bray from a setup role to middle relief & send the 8th best reliever to AAA. In fact Chapman might close some games if Dusty found the wisdon of not pitching Cordero three games in a row. I like Bray but as a middle reliever. The idea of him being a setup man in 2011 doesn't have me doing cartwheels. Plus bullpen B will rely on one of the 3rd tier lefties stepping up. Bullpen A could be one of the best in the league whereas bullpen B looks shaky.

I was thinking of how many wins bullpen A might mean over bullpen B over the course of a 162 game season. (Now if Chapman starts in AAA I would expect him to join the Reds pen sometime late in the season like he did this year. So maybe its 162 games of bullpen A vs 120 games of bullpen B & 42 games of bullpen A.) Could it be worth 3 wins? What if those wins are against our key opponents? 91-71 with Chapman striking out Fielder or Rasmus in a key game could mean a trip back to the postseason. 88-74 with Bray giving up a big hit to Fielder or Rasmus in a key game could mean 2nd place.

Ron Madden
01-14-2011, 03:45 AM
I believe the NL Central may be a tight three team race this year. In light of this I was thinking about what a bullpen with Chapman versus a bullpen without Chapman might mean for the Reds.

Bullpen A:
1) Cordero
2) Massett
3) Chapman (L)
4) Ondrusek
5) Bray (L)
6) & 7) choose two between guys like Burton, Lecure, Willis (L), Herrera (L), Maloney (L), Arredondo, Fisher, Smith, etc.

Bullpen B:
1) Cordero
2) Massett
3) Bray (L)
4) Ondrusek
5) 6) & 7) choose three between guys like Burton, Lecure, Willis (L), Herrera (L), Maloney (L), Arredondo, Fisher, Smith, etc. One will be a 2nd lefty.

Bullpen A is much better than bullpen B. Its interesting to see just how well things get by adding a star player. By adding Chapman you add another late inning reliever, send Bray from a setup role to middle relief & send the 8th best reliever to AAA. In fact Chapman might close some games if Dusty found the wisdon of not pitching Cordero three games in a row. I like Bray but as a middle reliever. The idea of him being a setup man in 2011 doesn't have me doing cartwheels. Plus bullpen B will rely on one of the 3rd tier lefties stepping up. Bullpen A could be one of the best in the league whereas bullpen B looks shaky.

I was thinking of how many wins bullpen A might mean over bullpen B over the course of a 162 game season. (Now if Chapman starts in AAA I would expect him to join the Reds pen sometime late in the season like he did this year. So maybe its 162 games of bullpen A vs 120 games of bullpen B & 42 games of bullpen A.) Could it be worth 3 wins? What if those wins are against our key opponents? 91-71 with Chapman striking out Fielder or Rasmus in a key game could mean a trip back to the postseason. 88-74 with Bray giving up a big hit to Fielder or Rasmus in a key game could mean 2nd place.


It's difficult to predict the production of a Bullpen.

Relief Pitchers are a funny breed, most are very volatile from one season to the next. So much depends on the IP of the Starting staff and just how each member of the Pen is used by their Manager.

Degenerate39
01-14-2011, 02:03 PM
I personally hope to see Chapmania in the rotation. Pitch 7 innings, bring in Danny Ray for the 8th, pray for rain in the 9th. Danny Ray would benefit the most of having Chapman in the rotation. Could you imagine seeing 95+ heat all game then seeing 60's and 70's?

RFS62
01-14-2011, 04:41 PM
Using Chapman as an "impact arm" in the bullpen is like using a sack full of diamonds to prop up the short leg on the kitchen table.


But those diamonds aren't yet polished. They have a lot more work to be done on them before they reach their full potential.

I have no problem with any of this. And another thing which I really believe plays into the equation is the fact that from the bullpen, he has the potential to pitch every night. In other words, if you're the ticket buying public, you could reasonably expect to see him any time you go to a game, not just every fifth day. I think it adds a buzz to ticket sales which will be measurable.




I think he'll eventually end up in the rotation, but let's not pretend that he doesn't have a few control issues currently and that needs to be worked out.

Couple him with Bailey and Volquez and that's 3 guys with the possibility of a 1.35 whip in the rotation.

As for his salary, if he's not affordable by any of your standards than that's really something that has more to do with your construct of what a team is, not the Reds. Personally I can't wring my hands over what sort of salary value is derived from a player, I can't control that.


Yep.

I(heart)Freel
01-14-2011, 09:50 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again: the plan for Chapman is to start in the pen, then go down to the minors for a bit to stretch out and become a starter. This does two things. One, they can carefully watch his innings in a situation that doesn't impact the pennant race. And two, they can say "getting Chapman in the second half is like trading for an ace." This will appease the masses/media when there is no ace to be had. At least not affordably. After last year, I don't think the Reds will be satisfied to start a playoff series without a hammer to throw against another NL hammer.

WebScorpion
01-15-2011, 01:06 PM
I agree with the people that are saying keep grooming him as a starter. I do realize he can gain a bit of an edge in getting ML hitters out by pitching from the bullpen, and of course, the short-term goals of the organization are met by having his heat in the 'pen for 2011 and maybe beyond, but if he's going to realize his maximum potential (a ML Ace) he needs to pitch more innings, get used to a starters routine and workload, and practice his third pitch. That's what the minor leagues are for...
What's not being mentioned here is what I believe to be the true driving force, butts in the seats. I think Castellini and Jocketty saw last season how many tickets can be sold by Chapmania and they feel that may be the best business move. The deciding factor will be his ability to sell tickets, and that will keep him in the Major Leagues whether he's in the bullpen or rotation.
Personally, I think it's the wrong move. I think he should be developed like all the other starting pitchers...coddle him...let him develop slowly into a TOR starter. He should be at the front of the AAA rotation until he's pitching so well you cannot keep him down. Make him knock down the door like everyone else. Well, everyone else except Bailey. :dunno:

Homer Bailey
01-15-2011, 01:11 PM
I personally hope to see Chapmania in the rotation. Pitch 7 innings, bring in Danny Ray for the 8th, pray for rain in the 9th. Danny Ray would benefit the most of having Chapman in the rotation. Could you imagine seeing 95+ heat all game then seeing 60's and 70's?

I don't buy this at all.

The guys that were facing Chapman would not be the same guys that would be facing DRH.

Caveman Techie
01-15-2011, 02:02 PM
I don't buy this at all.

The guys that were facing Chapman would not be the same guys that would be facing DRH.

How so? I could see maybe one pinch hitter, but the opposing team isn't going to replace everyone.

Homer Bailey
01-16-2011, 02:38 PM
How so? I could see maybe one pinch hitter, but the opposing team isn't going to replace everyone.

Chapman faces lets say the 1-2-3-4 hitters, then DRH faces 5-6-7-8? If they go back to back innings they aren't going to face the same hitters.

Edit: Ignore this. I misread the original post.

dougdirt
01-16-2011, 02:46 PM
Chapman faces lets say the 1-2-3-4 hitters, then DRH faces 5-6-7-8? If they go back to back innings they aren't going to face the same hitters.

If Chapman goes 7 innings, he is going to face everyone several times.

Homer Bailey
01-16-2011, 03:04 PM
If Chapman goes 7 innings, he is going to face everyone several times.

I completely misread it. I thought he meant Chapman pitches the 7th, DRH the 8th. My fault.

Caveat Emperor
01-17-2011, 03:27 AM
But those diamonds aren't yet polished. They have a lot more work to be done on them before they reach their full potential.

What are the odds they reach their potential as a 1 inning guy using 2 pitches (fastball / slider) at a time?

I want to see if Chapman can be the next Randy Johnson, not the next Joel Zumaya

OnBaseMachine
02-03-2011, 04:22 PM
From SI, it's refreshing to hear the Reds still plan on making Chapman a starter long-term.



Jocketty says that Aroldis Chapman, the Cuban pitcher who spent most of last season in the minors as a starter, will pitch out of the bullpen this season with plans to make him a starter long-term.

"We think if he pitches one more year in the bullpen, it will help him get acclimated to pitching in Cincinnati,'' Jocketty said.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/mel_antonen/02/03/young.pitchers/index.html#ixzz1CvvDV5eC

RED VAN HOT
02-03-2011, 05:19 PM
That raises the question I have wanted to ask those more familiar with developing pitchers. If Chapman pitches out of the pen, what opportunity does he have for developing/polishing pitches other than fastball and slider? In most cases relievers have little margin for error and experimentation in games. Does he work on those other pitches while warming up?

RFS62
02-03-2011, 06:40 PM
From SI, it's refreshing to hear the Reds still plan on making Chapman a starter long-term.







They've never said anything different, have they?

Raisor
02-03-2011, 06:48 PM
They've never said anything different, have they?


Shouldn't you be on AstrosZone now?

----
Bavasi

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87516


There was talk after last season that flame-throwing Aroldis Chapman would be part of the starting rotation this season, but Bavasi says it probably won’t happen - and may never happen.

“A decision has not been made, but I think it is going to be impossible to get him out of the bullpen,” said Bavasi. “You build your pitching staff from the back to the front - if we can shut you down in the eighth and ninth innings, you aren’t going to beat us.

“Aroldis is killing people out of the bullpen and we’re OK with with what we have for starters,” Bavasi added. “And Arolidis is not going to be able to throw 105 miles an hour as a starter.”

RFS62
02-03-2011, 07:14 PM
Shouldn't you be on AstrosZone now?



Never.

Sounds like that was Bavasi's opinion and not a final decision from Walt. I'm still fine with using him another year out of the pen.

OnBaseMachine
02-05-2011, 10:26 PM
The Spanish version of MLB.com has an article up on Mario Soto and his work with Chapman, Cueto, and Volquez, so if you speak Spanish, enjoy. :) I tried translating it through Google but it's just as confusing. From what I can gather, Soto has been working Chapman on the changeup...


Soto has already helped Cueto and Volquez to develop good speed changes. How does the former pitcher to Chapman in this regard?

"Work on his changeup, which is at 70, 80 percent," said Soto. "This is what you need is time."

http://mlb.mlb.com/es/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110205&content_id=16582848&vkey=news_mlb_es&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

RFS62
02-06-2011, 09:27 AM
The Spanish version of MLB.com has an article up on Mario Soto and his work with Chapman, Cueto, and Volquez, so if you speak Spanish, enjoy. :) I tried translating it through Google but it's just as confusing. From what I can gather, Soto has been working Chapman on the changeup...



http://mlb.mlb.com/es/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110205&content_id=16582848&vkey=news_mlb_es&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


Holy Cow!!! Man, that is music to my ears.

Can you imagine Chapman with a good changeup?

lollipopcurve
02-06-2011, 11:29 AM
The Spanish version of MLB.com has an article up on Mario Soto and his work with Chapman, Cueto, and Volquez, so if you speak Spanish, enjoy. I tried translating it through Google but it's just as confusing. From what I can gather, Soto has been working Chapman on the changeup...

Soto also points out that Chapman's cultural adjustment is ongoing. He mentions the importance of Chapman learning English, a work in progress.

He has a lot of praise for how much conditioning work Cueto has done this offseason.

OnBaseMachine
02-15-2011, 09:38 PM
From Fanhouse:


"I think we can be very good," Price said. "I don't even need to explain why; it's there in the black and white numbers. So we don't have to push Chapman. We don't need to stockpile innings on him at this stage of his career.

"But down the road will he start? I think he will."


http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2011/02/15/aroldis-chapman-has-future-in-reds-rotation-but-bullpen-awaits/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

edabbs44
02-16-2011, 07:31 AM
Sounds perfectly logical and reasonable to me.

_Sir_Charles_
02-16-2011, 10:33 AM
My question is what's it going to take for Mario to get a pitching coach job? For my money, the Reds should do what they can to get Soto to take a job as a minor league pitching coach in the lower minors. To give our young pitchers more time to develop the change (among other pitches). He seems to be obviously interested in teaching...time to make the offer official IMO.

REDREAD
02-16-2011, 12:40 PM
My question is what's it going to take for Mario to get a pitching coach job? For my money, the Reds should do what they can to get Soto to take a job as a minor league pitching coach in the lower minors. To give our young pitchers more time to develop the change (among other pitches). He seems to be obviously interested in teaching...time to make the offer official IMO.

I think Mario has turned down a full time job in the past (or at least said he would not be interested if offered).. I think he prefers the part time work instead. No link, and I might be remembering wrong.

_Sir_Charles_
02-16-2011, 12:45 PM
I think Mario has turned down a full time job in the past (or at least said he would not be interested if offered).. I think he prefers the part time work instead. No link, and I might be remembering wrong.

Hmmm...interesting. I didn't know that. Any clue when this was or for what position?

medford
02-16-2011, 01:27 PM
My question is what's it going to take for Mario to get a pitching coach job? For my money, the Reds should do what they can to get Soto to take a job as a minor league pitching coach in the lower minors. To give our young pitchers more time to develop the change (among other pitches). He seems to be obviously interested in teaching...time to make the offer official IMO.

Mario has spent extended periods w/ Louisville at the start of the season in years past, as well as brief periods during the middle of the season, IIRC. However, I think he's always preferred to go back to the Dominican to make sure his business interests down there are taken care of. I don't think he wants a full time pitching coach gig.

which raises a question/opportunity in my head. I assume Cueto & Volquez spend most, if not all of their offseason back home. Can Chapman spend the winters in the Dominican, or does his defection status affect the amount of places he can move to? Anyways, could Mario set up a "pitching camp" to help refine the techniques of Cueto, Volquez Chapman in the offseason, as well as invite every promising 15 year old pitcher on the island and perhaps use their exposure to a couple of top level reds to entice them to sign FA contracts when their 16?

anyways, remember back approx. 1 year ago when Pitchers & catchers reported and the 1st workout? Not only the freshness of the new spring training complex, but all of C.Trent's video of Chapman and the excitement around his spring training workout debut. I doubt there's ever been as much buzz as their was last time for the first pitching workout of the year.

OnBaseMachine
02-17-2011, 12:19 PM
From John Fay - Bryan Price on Chapman:


Price said Chapman will continue to work on the his change-up but not use it much in games — if it at all. As a reliever, the fastball and slider are enough.

“With the role that he’s currently holding, he’s not going to use his change-up a great deal,” Price said. “However, we’re going to stay familiar with it and continue to use in the spring and when he’s warming up because in the future we see him in the rotation.”



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/02/17/price-on-chapman-we-have-to-let-it-unfold/

Will M
03-26-2011, 12:54 AM
Dave Cameron of Fangraphs writes about Neftali Feliz staying as the Rangers closer this year. It seems that there are similar issues with Chapman & Feliz. Here is the article:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/neftali-feliz-will-close-world-will-not-en/

edabbs44
03-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Dave Cameron of Fangraphs writes about Neftali Feliz staying as the Rangers closer this year. It seems that there are similar issues with Chapman & Feliz. Here is the article:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/neftali-feliz-will-close-world-will-not-en/

Interesting.

OnBaseMachine
04-13-2011, 12:20 PM
Just wanted to bump this thread and comment on how much Chapman impressed me last night. Chapman "only" topped out at 98 mph on the radar gun and mostly sit in the mid-90's with his fastball but IMO, that was one of his best appearances yet. That was one of the most impressive innings I've ever seen from a Major League pitcher. He hit his spot on almost every pitch. That breaking ball to strike out Headley was unfair. The 1-1 slider he threw to Hawpe had so much break on it, Hawpe sort of stepped back like it was going to hit him and then took an ugly swing at it. That was a lot of fun to watch.

Here's a clip of his inning for those of you who missed it.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=13736027

Caveat Emperor
04-13-2011, 01:13 PM
So much for the argument that Chapman needs to be in the bullpen because his results will suffer if he can't throw 100+ MPH.

Homer Bailey
04-13-2011, 01:16 PM
So much for the argument that Chapman needs to be in the bullpen because his results will suffer if he can't throw 100+ MPH.

Really? Because of one inning?

Like you, I eventually want to see him starting, but let's not act like that one inning proves anything.

HokieRed
04-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I am just delighted to see the talk coming out of Price, nicely posted by OBM, about Chapman's future in the rotation. That's where it belongs, I've thought all along.

11larkin11
04-13-2011, 04:26 PM
Really? Because of one inning?

Like you, I eventually want to see him starting, but let's not act like that one inning proves anything.

Does 3 innings prove something?

Homer Bailey
04-13-2011, 04:44 PM
Does 3 innings prove something?

Has he had 3 innings throwing "low" velocity? (i.e. 93-95, which is where he was sitting last night, per the gun). When I've watched him he's been sitting much closer to 100.

And to answer your question, no I don't think 3 innings proves anything at all, really.

edabbs44
05-01-2011, 09:52 PM
Neftali Feliz has said that he does not want to be a starter ever again. Interesting.


"The team has told me that next year I would still have the chance to start, but I don't want to do it anymore,'' Feliz said. "This year my arm didn't feel good after they moved me from the rotation back to closing, so I don't want to go through that again and risk the same thing happening.''



http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2011/05/rangers-neftali-feliz-im-through-with-starting/1

I have always considered his and Chapman's situations similar so this is something to think about.