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traderumor
12-31-2010, 10:18 AM
I replay seasons on Strat-O-Matic using actual lineups. Am currently playing 1954 and get to May 4 & 5, Philadelphia @ St. Louis. Because I play all the games, there is some time lag between games for any two teams. Robin Roberts comes up as the starter on May 5, which puzzled me because I could have swore he just completed the prior game on about 150 pitches (Strat does an estimated pitch count). So I go to the actual boxes and see that Roberts left the game after only 2 innings on May 4, faced 12 batters, so they brought him back the next day and he pitched a complete game!

Now, trust me, I do not condone that and get all Nolan Ryan on you to start talking about how tough the old timers were, but I was just thinking about what the media and internet would do with a manager that made such a decision in today's game. Obviously, Roberts was a different animal, pitching effectively until he was 39, but still, that had to be one sore arm after the game on May 5th.

Bob Borkowski
12-31-2010, 10:38 AM
Robin Roberts was a hoss, no doubt about it. He often pitched with only 2 days rest between starts.

Big Klu
12-31-2010, 11:33 AM
Try this one on for size--Walter Johnson pitched 30 scoreless innings and three complete-game shutouts over Labor Day Weekend in 1908 at New York!


Friday, September 4: Johnson pitched a five-hit shutout as Washington defeated New York, 3-0.

Saturday, September 5: Johnson then turned around and pitched a three-hit shutout the very next day, as Washington beat New York, 6-0.

Monday, September 7: New York state law prohibited sporting events on Sunday, so both clubs had September 6 off. But they played a Labor Day doubleheader on Monday. Johnson pitched a two-hit shutout in Game 1, as Washington won, 4-0. Johnson also started Game 2, pitching three shutout innings before leaving the game after being hit by a pitch. Washington completed the sweep by winning Game 2, 9-3. Tom Hughes got the win in relief.

Redsfan320
12-31-2010, 12:20 PM
@ Big Klu- wow. Was he the "pitcher" on the team, as in "you're the first baseman, you're our second baseman, you're the pitcher...?"

320

BCubb2003
12-31-2010, 01:00 PM
That's because relief pitchers back then were wimps. Now they're finally worth something. You can thank Sparky Anderson for that.

westofyou
12-31-2010, 01:08 PM
@ Big Klu- wow. Was he the "pitcher" on the team, as in "you're the first baseman, you're our second baseman, you're the pitcher...?"

320

Back in that day teams often leveraged starters at a higher rate, saving the top guys for the top clubs and often doubling up in some instances. In the case of the 08 Nats Johnson was second on the team in starts and IP, Tom Hughs was first with 43 games appeared in (31 as a starter) Johnson was in 36 (30 as a starter) together they threw 38% of the teams innings.

In 1908 Ed Walsh appeared in 69 games, started 49 games had 42 complete games, 6 saves and finished 15 games as a reliever, he pitched 464 innings, 33.8% of the teams innings.

IslandRed
12-31-2010, 05:35 PM
The attitude about starting pitchers back then was the same as how we're used to thinking about quarterbacks -- if a guy started a game, he was expected to finish it, barring unusual circumstances. That meant a pitcher had to pace himself. Now, with power-filled lineups and power-arm-filled bullpens, the starter generally goes max effort until he's out of gas.

RedsBaron
12-31-2010, 06:33 PM
MY favorite display of two starting pitchers who refused to come out is a 1963 duel between Juan Marichal and Warren Spahn. Marichal won the game 1-0 when Willie Mays hit a home run off of Spahn in the bottom of the 16th inning.
Marichal repeatedly begged Giants manager Alvin Dark to leave him in the game, arguing that if the 42 year old Spahn could keep pitching then the 25 year old Marichal could do so. In the end Marichal had a 16 inning shutout while Spahn took the loss after pitching 15 shutout innings.
I'd love to know what the pitch counts were for that game.

westofyou
12-31-2010, 07:03 PM
MY favorite display of two starting pitchers who refused to come out is a 1963 duel between Juan Marichal and Warren Spahn. Marichal won the game 1-0 when Willie Mays hit a home run off of Spahn in the bottom of the 16th inning.
Marichal repeatedly begged Giants manager Alvin Dark to leave him in the game, arguing that if the 42 year old Spahn could keep pitching then the 25 year old Marichal could do so. In the end Marichal had a 16 inning shutout while Spahn took the loss after pitching 15 shutout innings.
I'd love to know what the pitch counts were for that game.

Spahn knew he couldn't Mays out, walked him twice in that game.



PITCHING

Milwaukee Braves IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Spahn L(11-4) 15.1 9 1 1 1 2 1 56

IBB: Spahn (2,Mays).

San Francisco Giants IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Marichal W(13-3) 16 8 0 0 4 10 0 59

Homer Bailey
01-01-2011, 05:29 AM
Spahn knew he couldn't Mays out, walked him twice in that game.



PITCHING

Milwaukee Braves IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Spahn L(11-4) 15.1 9 1 1 1 2 1 56

IBB: Spahn (2,Mays).

San Francisco Giants IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Marichal W(13-3) 16 8 0 0 4 10 0 59



Both guys were clearly BABIP lucky.

RedsBaron
01-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Spahn knew he couldn't Mays out, walked him twice in that game.



PITCHING

Milwaukee Braves IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Spahn L(11-4) 15.1 9 1 1 1 2 1 56

IBB: Spahn (2,Mays).

San Francisco Giants IP H R ER BB SO HR BFP
Marichal W(13-3) 16 8 0 0 4 10 0 59



Spahn gave up Mays's very first major league HR back in 1951.
Giving up 9 and 8 hits doesn't sound that impressive for a nine inning game; for a 15 or 16 inning game it isn't bad.
Did Spahn and Marichal collapse after this marathon? Probably not. Spahn went 12-3 the rest of the season to finish 23-7 with a league leading 22 complete games, while Marichal went 12-5 the rest of the way to finish at 25-8, tying for the league lead in wins, along with 321 innings pitched. Neither was the Cy Young winner though, losing that honor to someone named Koufax.

BCubb2003
01-01-2011, 12:48 PM
I wonder what happened to Sain and the rain?

westofyou
01-01-2011, 01:40 PM
I wonder what happened to Sain and the rain?

Sain was way gone by then, (but you knew that!) he was older than Spahn and threw more junk then anything, The Braves had SEVEN guys with 13 or more starts that year, that's kind of scary.

Spitball
01-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Spahn, like many top starters years ago, would come out of the pen four or five times a year. I believe Dizzy Dean would pitch in relief between starts even more often than that.

Bob Borkowski
01-01-2011, 02:22 PM
Birdie Tebbetts would often use his starters (Brooks Lawrence, for example) in relief in-between starts. The thinking was that this would replace their normal throwing on the sidelines.

westofyou
01-01-2011, 02:44 PM
Spahn, like many top starters years ago, would come out of the pen four or five times a year. I believe Dizzy Dean would pitch in relief between starts even more often than that.Correct, he would appear about 15 times a year in relief, and he often complained about it too. the depression era roster was at 23 men then, often the stars incurred the workload. the cubs in the series in the 35 series seriously leaned on the starters, bringing all but one into the game as a reliever.

RedsBaron
01-01-2011, 03:56 PM
In 1934 when Dizzy Dean won 30 games, four of those wins came in relief. He also had seven saves (those saves were awarded retrospectively).