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brm7675
12-31-2010, 03:28 PM
I am continually amazed at why Walt has no faith in young players. I mean i fully understand that unless forced, Dusty has zero faith in young players and will sacrifice wins in order to play the 'senior' players. But i was hoping that Walt would see the long term benefit in going young over adding injury riddled AARP members to the Reds. I mean how can adding someone like Scott P. and Edgar R. to the Reds make them a better team when it's clear Dusty will see them as "senior leadership' and give each way way way to much playing time and thus reduce the chances of winning. What is it with AARP guys?

Hondo
12-31-2010, 03:58 PM
Well I agree on one point, adding a Podsednik or a Renteria is a waste of Payroll IMO that could be used to make more of an upgrade if given a little more payroll flexability...

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:11 PM
Well I agree on one point, adding a Podsednik or a Renteria is a waste of Payroll IMO that could be used to make more of an upgrade if given a little more payroll flexability...

I just can't figure out how anyone with the baseball knowledge of Walt would think A) That Dusty wouldn't play these guys all the time B) At their age and abilities they would in any way increase the talent of this team.

It just baffles me....:confused:

757690
12-31-2010, 04:18 PM
I just can't figure out how anyone with the baseball knowledge of Walt would think A) That Dusty wouldn't play these guys all the time B) At their age and abilities they would in any way increase the talent of this team.

It just baffles me....:confused:

Dusty has been quoted as saying that he's committed to Janish at SS.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101213&content_id=16313178&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

The reason why they brought in Cabrera was because they wanted Janish to have one year backing up SS before giving him the starting role. The reason why Cabrera was not brought back was because he wants to start and the Reds told him that he would be backing up Janish. It seems like that is one of the reasons why Renteria has not signed yet, he's hoping to get a starting job somewhere. If he doesn't, he'll probably sign with the Reds as Janish's backup.

Hondo
12-31-2010, 04:23 PM
Dusty has been quoted as saying that he's committed to Janish at SS.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101213&content_id=16313178&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

The reason why they brought in Cabrera was because they wanted Janish to have one year backing up SS before giving him the starting role. The reason why Cabrera was not brought back was because he wants to start and the Reds told him that he would be backing up Janish. It seems like that is one of the reasons why Renteria has not signed yet, he's hoping to get a starting job somewhere. If he doesn't, he'll probably sign with the Reds as Janish's backup.

Dusty was quoted as saying "Yeah, I think so..."

So there ya go! I dn't think Janish has any business being a Starting SS but we shall see... If he hits .300 and has 160-180 Hits then I will concede.

I don't think if he hits .260- (5-10 HR) - 50 RBI will be good enough IMO and I doubt he can sustain even a .250 Batting Average or a .320 OBP over a full season of 140-150 Starts

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:24 PM
Dusty has been quoted as saying that he's committed to Janish at SS.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101213&content_id=16313178&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

The reason why they brought in Cabrera was because they wanted Janish to have one year backing up SS before giving him the starting role. The reason why Cabrera was not brought back was because he wants to start and the Reds told him that he would be backing up Janish. It seems like that is one of the reasons why Renteria has not signed yet, he's hoping to get a starting job somewhere. If he doesn't, he'll probably sign with the Reds as Janish's backup.

If you believe that I have some sweeeeet land swamp land to sell you. Doesn't has zero faith in young players and only plays them when there is no other options or they have produced SO far above expectations he can't not play them. Trust me if the Reds were to sign Edgar, he would see 70-80% of the playing time unless he was hurt.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:29 PM
Dusty was quoted as saying "Yeah, I think so..."

So there ya go! I dn't think Janish has any business being a Starting SS but we shall see... If he hits .300 and has 160-180 Hits then I will concede.

I don't think if he hits .260- (5-10 HR) - 50 RBI will be good enough IMO and I doubt he can sustain even a .250 Batting Average or a .320 OBP over a full season of 140-150 Starts


how many ML short stops are hitting .300? What SS out there do you think we could get that could surpass .260/10HR/50 RBI's?

Hillsdale87
12-31-2010, 04:34 PM
What is your opposition to bringing in Podsednik? The only guy he'd be taking time away from is Gomes, who's not exactly young, and was horrible for the entire 2nd half last year. Podsednik would provide more speed, a higher OBP, and much better defense. I would love to have him if he could be signed for a reasonable price.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:41 PM
What is your opposition to bringing in Podsednik? The only guy he'd be taking time away from is Gomes, who's not exactly young, and was horrible for the entire 2nd half last year. Podsednik would provide more speed, a higher OBP, and much better defense. I would love to have him if he could be signed for a reasonable price.

He's old, he's horrible and he would take playing time from heisey, not Gomes.

Hondo
12-31-2010, 04:44 PM
how many ML short stops are hitting .300? What SS out there do you think we could get that could surpass .260/10HR/50 RBI's?

Well it is Impossible but the Team Should have traded for Jose Reyes from the METS... Payroll should be a Non Issue to Add one Marquee player after the Playoff apperance last year and added Revenue from the Playoff Games...

I don't care about the 80 Million Payroll... Team shouldnt have resigned Hernadez for 3 Million, and should have made Cairo keep his 500,000 salary instead of Giving him a 100% raise...

The Ownership owes it to Cincinnati the Community to Improve the Team after the Playoff Push of 2010... The fans in Cincy will only go to the Park if the Team is Winning...

Old NDN
12-31-2010, 04:50 PM
If the Reds are determined to go old, I would try to convince Edmonds to come back, play him a couple of games a week, pinch hit. He seemed to really connect with the young OF, especially Bruce, in the short time he was here. If Cabrera hasn't found a starting spot yet, he may be agreeable in coming back to play behind Janish. I'd rather have these two than Renteria or Pods.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:53 PM
Well it is Impossible but the Team Should have traded for Jose Reyes from the METS... Payroll should be a Non Issue to Add one Marquee player after the Playoff apperance last year and added Revenue from the Playoff Games...

I don't care about the 80 Million Payroll... Team shouldnt have resigned Hernadez for 3 Million, and should have made Cairo keep his 500,000 salary instead of Giving him a 100% raise...

The Ownership owes it to Cincinnati the Community to Improve the Team after the Playoff Push of 2010... The fans in Cincy will only go to the Park if the Team is Winning...

Why would you want an overpriced player coming off back to back seasons marred with injuries who won't be back the following season and gosh knows what amount of young talent we would have had to parted with. I am all for adding a "marquee" player...Jose Reyes isn't that. It's interesting how eager you are to spend others monies. With the younger players improving, why don't you believe they will not get better?

brm7675
12-31-2010, 04:54 PM
If the Reds are determined to go old, I would try to convince Edmonds to come back, play him a couple of games a week, pinch hit. He seemed to really connect with the young OF, especially Bruce, in the short time he was here. If Cabrera hasn't found a starting spot yet, he may be agreeable in coming back to play behind Janish. I'd rather have these two than Renteria or Pods.

Edmonds' body can't go anymore, you could see that last year, sure bring him back as a coach, but not a rostered player. IF you bring Cabrera back he will see the majority of playing time over Janish which hurts, not helps your team.

Hondo
12-31-2010, 04:57 PM
If the Reds are determined to go old, I would try to convince Edmonds to come back, play him a couple of games a week, pinch hit. He seemed to really connect with the young OF, especially Bruce, in the short time he was here. If Cabrera hasn't found a starting spot yet, he may be agreeable in coming back to play behind Janish. I'd rather have these two than Renteria or Pods.

Agreed.

webbbj
12-31-2010, 07:08 PM
i dont see any problems w/ bringing in podsednik but a definite no to renteria. if podsednik takes away from heiseys playing time then oh well. podsednik is an upgrade over gomes and heisey wasnt starting anyway.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 07:29 PM
i dont see any problems w/ bringing in podsednik but a definite no to renteria. if podsednik takes away from heiseys playing time then oh well. podsednik is an upgrade over gomes and heisey wasnt starting anyway.

The "upgrade" that podsednik brings is so marginal that it wouldn't be worth the money. Yes he would be slightly better in the field, but even at his worse at least Gomes does bring some potential of power...again if you upgrade then upgrade and this addition would not be an upgrade overall.:thumbdown

webbbj
12-31-2010, 08:19 PM
The "upgrade" that podsednik brings is so marginal that it wouldn't be worth the money. Yes he would be slightly better in the field, but even at his worse at least Gomes does bring some potential of power...again if you upgrade then upgrade and this addition would not be an upgrade overall.:thumbdown


but isnt what the reds want is a leadoff hitter? everyone here seems to agree that answer isnt on the team. and pdsednik provided a better OBP than any of our current leadoffs and we want BP in the 2 or 6 hole aswell.

it gets gomes defense out, it gets out of the 6 hole and brings a leadoff

pods
BP
JV
JB
Rolen
Drew
Hanigan
Janish

or i could see hanigan at 2 and BP at 6 and Drew at 7 to provide more power at the middle bottom of the lineup.

really id like to just of never signed gomes and had Pods and Heisey at left. but that cant happen. theres nothing wrong w/ depth either. hopefully if we get pods, him and heisey prove worthy to be ahead of Gomes and we trade Gomes at the deadline to an AL team for some low level ML.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 08:25 PM
but isnt what the reds want is a leadoff hitter? everyone here seems to agree that answer isnt on the team. and pdsednik provided a better OBP than any of our current leadoffs and we want BP in the 2 or 6 hole aswell.

it gets gomes defense out, it gets out of the 6 hole and brings a leadoff

pods
BP
JV
JB
Rolen
Drew
Hanigan
Janish

or i could see hanigan at 2 and BP at 6 and Drew at 7 to provide more power at the middle bottom of the lineup.

really id like to just of never signed gomes and had Pods and Heisey at left. but that cant happen. theres nothing wrong w/ depth either. hopefully if we get pods, him and heisey prove worthy to be ahead of Gomes and we trade Gomes at the deadline to an AL team for some low level ML.

I believe both Phillips and or Stubbs could match or do better then anything Senior Pods can bring to this team...

Hondo
12-31-2010, 08:28 PM
I believe both Phillips and or Stubbs could match or do better then anything Senior Pods can bring to this team...

Quit talking about Phillips in the Lead Off position. Stats back this up Bro.

Phillips in Lead off .251
Phillips in 2nd hole .306


Stubbs could be the only one on the current team I would consider Leading off...

But really the team needs a lead off hitter and not Podsenik... Don't want him unless he is taking Nix Bench spot... And Nix was a Supuerb Defender... Pods is not.

Quatitos
12-31-2010, 08:41 PM
Edmonds' body can't go anymore, you could see that last year, sure bring him back as a coach, but not a rostered player. IF you bring Cabrera back he will see the majority of playing time over Janish which hurts, not helps your team.
Actually Edmonds wouldn't be that bad of an addition if used in about the same role as Nix was last season. When he was healthy he was performing rather well, unfortunately we didn't see much of that in a reds uniform. I can't imagine, if he still wanted to play, that he would sign for more than he did last year which was $850k.

Its interesting because you could almost count on him not to finish the season. So if you assume he would succumb to injuries during the season then you can either trade for someone at the trade deadline or bring up whoever is tearing the cover off the ball in AAA. His salary wouldn't be painful to eat as long as he didn't break down in the first month or two and would.

Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be ideal, but it would be someone that if signed would more than likely be the #5 outfielder and not take time away from heisey because of his risk of injury. I would still prefer it if the Reds could grab Fred Lewis with the money left over from losing Rhodes.

brm7675
12-31-2010, 08:43 PM
Quit talking about Phillips in the Lead Off position. Stats back this up Bro.

Phillips in Lead off .251
Phillips in 2nd hole .306


Stubbs could be the only one on the current team I would consider Leading off...

But really the team needs a lead off hitter and not Podsenik... Don't want him unless he is taking Nix Bench spot... And Nix was a Supuerb Defender... Pods is not.

I believe you are looking at BA, and you also have to take into account he was hurt for a long portion last year which impacted on his hitting. You many not like him in LO, but I do and I think Dusty will again use him there.

Quatitos
12-31-2010, 09:10 PM
I believe you are looking at BA, and you also have to take into account he was hurt for a long portion last year which impacted on his hitting. You many not like him in LO, but I do and I think Dusty will again use him there.


Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB SH BAbip tOPS+ sOPS+
Batting 1st 72 72 338 315 41 79 11 5 8 33 18 42 .251 .302 .394 .695 124 0 .268 83 95
Batting 2nd 46 46 203 180 35 55 15 0 5 9 15 22 .306 .364 .472 .836 85 5 .325 119 128

I prefer Brandon in the second spot, because I think in general Brandon has a tendency to try and do too much whether it is the leadoff spot or the cleanup spot. I'm sure we are all too familiar with the swings where brandon ends up on his knee falling over from overswinging. I think the number 2 spot is ideal for him because the tasks there are simple, move the guy in front of you over and get on base. He also will rarely be up with 2 outs, which his career splits are a very bad .662 OPS vs 1 (.806) and 0 (.773) outs. It is my opinion that he feels the pressure there less and can stay on his game more instead of trying to play beyond himself.

If you are also right about him being hurt most of the time when he was in the leadoff spot I am sure that he can do a decent job in the spot compared to what he showed last year, but I would still think the 2 spot fits him better. I would also prefer Stubbs gets the first chance at the job (assuming no upgrades are made at other positions) but I think Brandon should probably get a crack at it if Drew fails to perfom.

PeteRoseBelongs
12-31-2010, 10:12 PM
Dusty was quoted as saying "Yeah, I think so..."

So there ya go! I dn't think Janish has any business being a Starting SS but we shall see... If he hits .300 and has 160-180 Hits then I will concede.

I don't think if he hits .260- (5-10 HR) - 50 RBI will be good enough IMO and I doubt he can sustain even a .250 Batting Average or a .320 OBP over a full season of 140-150 Starts

I did some checking. Of the shortstops that played in 100 games last year which was 44, only 10 hit over .280. The average appears to be around .260. Which Janish was at which was .260. Janish only got 200 at bats last season. Hard to develop an opinion on 200 at bats and He had 56 less at bats than he did in 2009 and hit almost 40 pts higher. His OPS was almost 136 pts higher and his fielding percentage was .984 and the only player better was Derek Jeter.

roby
01-01-2011, 01:33 AM
how many ML short stops are hitting .300? What SS out there do you think we could get that could surpass .260/10HR/50 RBI's?

I would be tickled to death if Janish put up those numbers this year. I certainly would be surprised if he is even close.

Quatitos
01-01-2011, 02:21 AM
I would be tickled to death if Janish put up those numbers this year. I certainly would be surprised if he is even close.

Which part is laughable, if you were to extrapolate his stats from the last season to a whole season (600 PA for arguments sake) he would end up with 13 HR and 65 RBI. I think we can all agree that is probably a bit too optimistic, but I don't see how 10 HR and 50 RBI would be out of the realistic realm of expectation. Let me compare some of his stats last season to his minor league stats since he doesn't have much to compare in terms of major league data beside 1 mediocre

As far as power goes, his ISO last season (SLG - BA) was 125, about in line with his minor league career ISO of 120. For homeruns he posted a 2.2% HR% vs his minor league 1.6% so 10 HR over a whole season would be just about in line with his minor league numbers. He has also been on a strengthening routine for his hitting so seeing this kind of increase in his HR% would not be too hard to imagine either.

When you also consider who would be batting in front of him he will probably be receiving a fair amount of chances with runners on. In all likelihood you will see the catching tandem (.375 OBP last season) batting in the 7 spot, Gomes or Stubbs (.330-.340 OBP) in the 6 spot, and Rolen/Bruce (both ~.350 obp) in the 4/5 spot.

As for BA, well I could understand skepticism about him being able to maintain a .260, but I don't think he will perform much farther below that. I would think .260 is attainable since he hit that well for his career minor league average and I believe .240 would be a feasible floor which he averaged in AA and AAA and that is probably a better comparison than his overall minors average. Combine that with him having had enough ABs to adjust to major league pitching and I think those stats are clearly possible from him, but obviously not guaranteed.

Pete4prez
01-01-2011, 11:06 AM
Dusty and Walt like the vets!

roby
01-01-2011, 12:43 PM
Which part is laughable, if you were to extrapolate his stats from the last season to a whole season (600 PA for arguments sake) he would end up with 13 HR and 65 RBI. I think we can all agree that is probably a bit too optimistic, but I don't see how 10 HR and 50 RBI would be out of the realistic realm of expectation. Let me compare some of his stats last season to his minor league stats since he doesn't have much to compare in terms of major league data beside 1 mediocre

As far as power goes, his ISO last season (SLG - BA) was 125, about in line with his minor league career ISO of 120. For homeruns he posted a 2.2% HR% vs his minor league 1.6% so 10 HR over a whole season would be just about in line with his minor league numbers. He has also been on a strengthening routine for his hitting so seeing this kind of increase in his HR% would not be too hard to imagine either.

When you also consider who would be batting in front of him he will probably be receiving a fair amount of chances with runners on. In all likelihood you will see the catching tandem (.375 OBP last season) batting in the 7 spot, Gomes or Stubbs (.330-.340 OBP) in the 6 spot, and Rolen/Bruce (both ~.350 obp) in the 4/5 spot.

As for BA, well I could understand skepticism about him being able to maintain a .260, but I don't think he will perform much farther below that. I would think .260 is attainable since he hit that well for his career minor league average and I believe .240 would be a feasible floor which he averaged in AA and AAA and that is probably a better comparison than his overall minors average. Combine that with him having had enough ABs to adjust to major league pitching and I think those stats are clearly possible from him, but obviously not guaranteed.

I didn't say laughable. I said tickled...as in extremely happy. I think you are being a little too optimistic with Janish. You are projecting out a career year for him, and i think he will break down offensively if he plays every day. He is pretty weak and his bat speed tends to slow with p[laying time. I hope you are right, but I'm afraid everyone will be dissapointed if Janish is the every day SS.

Pony Boy
01-01-2011, 01:42 PM
Dusty was quoted as saying "Yeah, I think so..."

So there ya go! I dn't think Janish has any business being a Starting SS but we shall see... If he hits .300 and has 160-180 Hits then I will concede.

I don't think if he hits .260- (5-10 HR) - 50 RBI will be good enough IMO and I doubt he can sustain even a .250 Batting Average or a .320 OBP over a full season of 140-150 Starts

The funny thing is you just pretty much described Ozzie's Smith's 1983 season (50 RBIs, .321 OBP). Except Ozzie hit well shy of .260 and didnt come close to 5-10 HRs. And Ozzie was an All-Star and received MVP votes that year.

Quatitos
01-01-2011, 03:37 PM
I didn't say laughable. I said tickled...as in extremely happy.
Sorry, I somehow got laughable into my head, excuse the mistake :).

I think you are being a little too optimistic with Janish. You are projecting out a career year for him, and i think he will break down offensively if he plays every day. He is pretty weak and his bat speed tends to slow with p[laying time. I hope you are right, but I'm afraid everyone will be dissapointed if Janish is the every day SS.

Actually I am only projecting a career year in terms of counting stats, which makes sense since he will be getting about 2 and a half to 3 times as many PA's. I actually predicted lower rate stats for him because I think he might not be able to keep up what he did last year. I predicted a lower HR% and a lower RBI/PA at what I believe would be a reasonable decline from last year since he would be playing almost every day for a whole year. Both rates would be below league average with HR% average being 2.6% and I think Janish would maintain atleast a 1.6%. AB/RBI is right around 10.5 with what I said and the league average was 7.9 last year.

I also said you might see him maintain the .260, but I don't think he would go back below a .240 average. I mean which one of these things don't you really see happening? As for his bat speed slowing down with playing time what are you basing this off of? I know people have said his performance dropped when he was playing every day, but the only thing that really dropped during that stretch when cabrera was out was his OBP by about 10 points.

markymark69
01-01-2011, 11:58 PM
Yeah, You're absolutely right - neither of them have any faith in Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Wood, Bailey, Ondrusek, Jordan Smith, Leake. Come on - this is just another one of your weak arguments. You're talking about two players who haven't proven that they can play everyday in Heisey and Janish - imo.

From what I have read, Renteria, if he signs will back-up Janish - who in my opinion, has not proven he can hit MLB pitching every day. Maybe he can, I hope he does - but excuse me if I'm still skeptical.

As far as Podsednik - he would be taking away playing time from Gomes, not Heisey. Heisey is another one that has not proven that he can play everyday and he is not going to platoon with Gomes, because you do not normally platoon two right-handed players. Heisey would be more of a back-up in both left and right field, just like last year. He was a pretty good pinch-hitter last season, which is a good thing to have. So Podsednik likely would not take much playing time from him, if any at all.

Although I'm not excited about Podsednik and I think he'll end up being a Red, but if he produces what he did last year - I could live with that in a limited role. You could put Heisey in as a defensive replacement at the end of the game for Podsednik or Gomes - again something that a team needs to have.

The bottom line - both players (Renteria and Podsednik) would be back-ups from what I understand - so what's the big deal?

I would think that we would trust Walt by now - but I guess that's too much to ask for the Redzone regulars.

Hondo
01-02-2011, 03:30 PM
Yeah, You're absolutely right - neither of them have any faith in Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Wood, Bailey, Ondrusek, Jordan Smith, Leake. Come on - this is just another one of your weak arguments. You're talking about two players who haven't proven that they can play everyday in Heisey and Janish - imo.

From what I have read, Renteria, if he signs will back-up Janish - who in my opinion, has not proven he can hit MLB pitching every day. Maybe he can, I hope he does - but excuse me if I'm still skeptical.

As far as Podsednik - he would be taking away playing time from Gomes, not Heisey. Heisey is another one that has not proven that he can play everyday and he is not going to platoon with Gomes, because you do not normally platoon two right-handed players. Heisey would be more of a back-up in both left and right field, just like last year. He was a pretty good pinch-hitter last season, which is a good thing to have. So Podsednik likely would not take much playing time from him, if any at all.

Although I'm not excited about Podsednik and I think he'll end up being a Red, but if he produces what he did last year - I could live with that in a limited role. You could put Heisey in as a defensive replacement at the end of the game for Podsednik or Gomes - again something that a team needs to have.

The bottom line - both players (Renteria and Podsednik) would be back-ups from what I understand - so what's the big deal?

I would think that we would trust Walt by now - but I guess that's too much to ask for the Redzone regulars.

Alls I wanted was the Ownership and FO to Improve one Weakness on the Team based on the 2010 Success...

They haven't done anything. That is what is sooo frustrating...

markymark69
01-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Alls I wanted was the Ownership and FO to Improve one Weakness on the Team based on the 2010 Success...

They haven't done anything. That is what is sooo frustrating...

I agree with you Hondo, but that wasn't what the thread was about.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Alls I wanted was the Ownership and FO to Improve one Weakness on the Team based on the 2010 Success...

They haven't done anything. That is what is sooo frustrating...

What is the rush?

brm7675
01-03-2011, 12:25 PM
You're talking about two players who haven't proven that they can play everyday in Heisey and Janish - imo.

From what I have read, Renteria, if he signs will back-up Janish - who in my opinion, has not proven he can hit MLB pitching every day. Maybe he can, I hope he does - but excuse me if I'm still skeptical.

As far as Podsednik - he would be taking away playing time from Gomes, not Heisey. Heisey is another one that has not proven that he can play everyday and he is not going to platoon with Gomes, because you do not normally platoon two right-handed players. Heisey would be more of a back-up in both left and right field, just like last year. He was a pretty good pinch-hitter last season, which is a good thing to have. So Podsednik likely would not take much playing time from him, if any at all.

Although I'm not excited about Podsednik and I think he'll end up being a Red, but if he produces what he did last year - I could live with that in a limited role. You could put Heisey in as a defensive replacement at the end of the game for Podsednik or Gomes - again something that a team needs to have.

The bottom line - both players (Renteria and Podsednik) would be back-ups from what I understand - so what's the big deal?

I would think that we would trust Walt by now - but I guess that's too much to ask for the Redzone regulars.

If you really believe that Dusty would use both Renteria and Podsednik as back ups, then you have not been watching how Dusty manages. If either are the team they will be the every day player at their position with Janish seeing playing time once a month and Gomes pinch hitting and Heisey giving Stubbs/Bruce days off.

markymark69
01-03-2011, 04:26 PM
If you really believe that Dusty would use both Renteria and Podsednik as back ups, then you have not been watching how Dusty manages. If either are the team they will be the every day player at their position with Janish seeing playing time once a month and Gomes pinch hitting and Heisey giving Stubbs/Bruce days off.

Podsednik I can't say - Renteria has only been mentioned at a back-up in all the things that I have read.

If they come in as starters I would tend to agree with you, but that is not what you said in your post - you said they have no faith in young players - that is not true - maybe they don't have faith in Gomes/Heisey or Janish (I'm not sure I do either), but to make a blanket statement, which is way I read your comments - is off base imo.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Podsednik I can't say - Renteria has only been mentioned at a back-up in all the things that I have read.

If they come in as starters I would tend to agree with you, but that is not what you said in your post - you said they have no faith in young players - that is not true - maybe they don't have faith in Gomes/Heisey or Janish (I'm not sure I do either), but to make a blanket statement, which is way I read your comments - is off base imo.

Dusty has ZERO faith in young players. They "only" way Dusty will go with a younger player is if there is zero other options. Look at CF, last year at SS, the catcher position, who we have signed and traded for. How many games were lost last year because Dusty refused to rest his senior players and it either resulted in them getting hurt or being unable to play when needed? Rolen played way to many games at 3rd last season and it showed come Oct. lets not even discuss the stupidity of SS. Why did Heisey see more pine time then Gomes? When Phillips was hurt and could't produce, Dusty kept sticking him out there instead of giving the younger guys playing time. Dusty wouldn't play one young player at all if he has older player options.

markymark69
01-03-2011, 05:06 PM
Dusty has ZERO faith in young players. They "only" way Dusty will go with a younger player is if there is zero other options. Look at CF, last year at SS, the catcher position, who we have signed and traded for. How many games were lost last year because Dusty refused to rest his senior players and it either resulted in them getting hurt or being unable to play when needed? Rolen played way to many games at 3rd last season and it showed come Oct. lets not even discuss the stupidity of SS. Why did Heisey see more pine time then Gomes? When Phillips was hurt and could't produce, Dusty kept sticking him out there instead of giving the younger guys playing time. Dusty wouldn't play one young player at all if he has older player options.

Who played ahead of Stubbs? Cabrera was brought in to start so he was going to get every chance (not saying its right, but that's the way it is). - Hanigan (who is not young) played as much as Hernandez did.

Who would have you have played ahead of Phillips? Valaika? Come on now. Phillips is not exactly a codger either. He is actually younger than Hanigan.

Gomes had a good first half, that's why he played more - Baker probably stayed with him too long, but when Heisey got his chance to play regularly for a stretch he did not play that well. He found a niche as a pinch-hitter, which every team needs to have. Not every young player can be a starter and not every young player deserves a chance to start.

I'm not denying that Dusty likes veteran's, I just don't think your argument has much merit when nearly half the line-up is filled with young players - Stubbs, Bruce, Votto, Phillips is under 30 and Hanigan (again who is not young) spilt time.

You're bothered because Heisey and Janish didn't play every day. If that's all you have to have to gripe about - you don't have much of an argument. Janish is going to get his chance this year and I hope he does well, but I think we'll see that he's closer to Juan Castro than Barry Larkin.

When and if Podsednik and Renteria become Reds then worry about it. Until then don't sweat the small stuff.

Hondo
01-03-2011, 05:07 PM
Who played ahead of Stubbs? Cabrera was brought in to start so he was going to get every chance (not saying its right, but that's the way it is). - Hanigan (who is not young) played as much as Hernandez did.

Who would have you have played ahead of Phillips? Valaika? Come on now. Phillips is not exactly a codger either. He is actually younger than Hanigan.

Gomes had a good first half, that's why he played more - Baker probably stayed with him too long, but when Heisey got his chance to play regularly for a stretch he did not play that well. He found a niche as a pinch-hitter, which every team needs to have. Not every young player can be a starter and not every young player deserves a chance to start.

I'm not denying that Dusty likes veteran's, I just don't think your argument has much merit when nearly half the line-up is filled with young players - Stubbs, Bruce, Votto, Phillips is under 30 and Hanigan (again who is not young) spilt time.

You're bothered because Heisey and Janish didn't play every day. If that's all you have to have to gripe about - you don't have much of an argument. Janish is going to get his chance this year and I hope he does well, but I think we'll see that he's closer to Juan Castro than Barry Larkin.

When and if Podsednik and Renteria become Reds then worry about it. Until then don't sweat the small stuff.

You have just insulted Mister Juan Castro sir!

;)

brm7675
01-03-2011, 05:23 PM
Who played ahead of Stubbs? Cabrera was brought in to start so he was going to get every chance (not saying its right, but that's the way it is). - Hanigan (who is not young) played as much as Hernandez did.

Who would have you have played ahead of Phillips? Valaika? Come on now. Phillips is not exactly a codger either. He is actually younger than Hanigan.

Gomes had a good first half, that's why he played more - Baker probably stayed with him too long, but when Heisey got his chance to play regularly for a stretch he did not play that well. He found a niche as a pinch-hitter, which every team needs to have. Not every young player can be a starter and not every young player deserves a chance to start.

I'm not denying that Dusty likes veteran's, I just don't think your argument has much merit when nearly half the line-up is filled with young players - Stubbs, Bruce, Votto, Phillips is under 30 and Hanigan (again who is not young) spilt time.

You're bothered because Heisey and Janish didn't play every day. If that's all you have to have to gripe about - you don't have much of an argument. Janish is going to get his chance this year and I hope he does well, but I think we'll see that he's closer to Juan Castro than Barry Larkin.

When and if Podsednik and Renteria become Reds then worry about it. Until then don't sweat the small stuff.

Last season Stubbs did go from day one, look the previous season at WHOM Dusty went with and stunted the play of Stubbs that season. I believe Hernandez saw more game action over Hannigan and I said Dusty chose to go with the older vet Phillips over Valiaka when Phillips was hurt and shouldn't have been playing at all. No Gomes did not have a good first half, the numbers don't support that. He had a great April, a very good May and was horrible after that, below Vorp horrible. Again the young players were played only because Dusty had no other options, where there were he played the vet.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 05:27 PM
You're bothered because Heisey and Janish didn't play every day. If that's all you have to have to gripe about - you don't have much of an argument. Janish is going to get his chance this year and I hope he does well, but I think we'll see that he's closer to Juan Castro than Barry Larkin.

When and if Podsednik and Renteria become Reds then worry about it. Until then don't sweat the small stuff.

Again unlike some here, i don't care if janish can or can't hit, his abilities in the field are what I am after. When you have a declining rapidily 3rd basemen you must have a far superior talent in the field to his left or you are looking at a black hole in that area. Whatever Janish does at the plate is allllllll gravy. Heisey has not been given any kind of fair chance to show what he can or can't do. Put him out there and let him go for a full season and lets see. We know he can handle it in the field, lets see over 400+ AB's how he does at the plate.

Just the thought that Walt is even considering Podsednik or Renteria should scare the heck out of any breathing Reds fan.....:eek:

Hondo
01-03-2011, 05:30 PM
Again unlike some here, i don't care if janish can or can't hit, his abilities in the field are what I am after. When you have a declining rapidily 3rd basemen you must have a far superior talent in the field to his left or you are looking at a black hole in that area. Whatever Janish does at the plate is allllllll gravy. Heisey has not been given any kind of fair chance to show what he can or can't do. Put him out there and let him go for a full season and lets see. We know he can handle it in the field, lets see over 400+ AB's how he does at the plate.

Just the thought that Walt is even considering Podsednik or Renteria should scare the heck out of any breathing Reds fan.....:eek:

Yeah I agree on Renteria and Pods, it will take atleast 4-5 Million for both of them when they could use that kind of Money and add a little more to it and add a more productive player...

markymark69
01-03-2011, 05:38 PM
Last season Stubbs did go from day one, look the previous season at WHOM Dusty went with and stunted the play of Stubbs that season. I believe Hernandez saw more game action over Hannigan and I said Dusty chose to go with the older vet Phillips over Valiaka when Phillips was hurt and shouldn't have been playing at all. No Gomes did not have a good first half, the numbers don't support that. He had a great April, a very good May and was horrible after that, below Vorp horrible. Again the young players were played only because Dusty had no other options, where there were he played the vet.

Who really cares what he did two years ago? But since you since you went back there - he played Votto over Hatteberg when Votto first came up. He has played Bruce from day one even when many on this board felt like Bruce should have been sent down (two years ago) and even early this past year.

Hanigan is not young so you can't use him - the difference between he and Hernandez was marginal.

Oh, excuse me, I thought April and May were in the first half of the season.

Again, just because a player is young doesn't mean he has to start. Heisey is fine where he's at.

Again, when Pods and Renteria sign then it will be an issue until then - it means nothing.

AintlifeGrande
01-03-2011, 06:21 PM
Pods a waste of money?I don't call 35 stolen base's last season a waste.A nice one year deal and we could land him.And I wish people would put the Dusty ''loves veterans,hates young players''myth to rest.You think he would have played Stubbs and Bruce so much when they were slumping last season if he loved vet's so much.And he was not begging Walt to go out and find some cheap vet pitching free agents neither when the young pitching was struggling.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 06:24 PM
Yeah I agree on Renteria and Pods, it will take atleast 4-5 Million for both of them when they could use that kind of Money and add a little more to it and add a more productive player...

Who on the FA market as of right now is there? The talent market is thin this year, I just don't see us adding a "major" bat this offseason. I think they will probably waste monies and sigh the two guys above and we will regret it from day one and after both have sucked dry 400+ AB's over the upcoming season.:thumbdown

brm7675
01-03-2011, 06:27 PM
Who really cares what he did two years ago? But since you since you went back there - he played Votto over Hatteberg when Votto first came up. He has played Bruce from day one even when many on this board felt like Bruce should have been sent down (two years ago) and even early this past year.

Hanigan is not young so you can't use him - the difference between he and Hernandez was marginal.

Oh, excuse me, I thought April and May were in the first half of the season.

Again, just because a player is young doesn't mean he has to start. Heisey is fine where he's at.

Again, when Pods and Renteria sign then it will be an issue until then - it means nothing.

I think if you look back, while a nice player, Dusty favored Hatts over Votto way to long and it cost the team. No the first 2 months of the season ARE NOT the first half. the first half is April/May/June till mid july.

Hannigan is young and better but Hernandez is the "well traveled" experience vet who see's more playing time except when he is hurt. How do you know what a young player can or can not do if he doesn't play everyday? You don't learn and mature rusting away on the bench. So...you really don't see the Reds adding Pods or Renteria?

brm7675
01-03-2011, 06:29 PM
Pods a waste of money?I don't call 35 stolen base's last season a waste.A nice one year deal and we could land him.And I wish people would put the Dusty ''loves veterans,hates young players''myth to rest.You think he would have played Stubbs and Bruce so much when they were slumping last season if he loved vet's so much.And he was not begging Walt to go out and find some cheap vet pitching free agents neither when the young pitching was struggling.

He had no option in either RF or CF. When Edmonds got here, WHAM he goes right in and plays the like 3 days before he goes on the DL. When given an option, Dusty goes with age over youth every day and on Sunday. Yes signing Pods is a waste of money, Play Heisey, you will get between 18-25 SB with him, more power, better conditioned athlete and chepaer.

AintlifeGrande
01-03-2011, 06:39 PM
He had no option in either RF or CF. When Edmonds got here, WHAM he goes right in and plays the like 3 days before he goes on the DL. When given an option, Dusty goes with age over youth every day and on Sunday. Yes signing Pods is a waste of money, Play Heisey, you will get between 18-25 SB with him, more power, better conditioned athlete and chepaer.

Can Heisey lead off?He aint fast enough.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 06:52 PM
Can Heisey lead off?He aint fast enough.

What does fast have to do with anything? I say put Hannigan at leadoff, he gets on, phillips drives him over and Votto Drives him in. Fast is way overrated...:)

Hondo
01-03-2011, 07:23 PM
What does fast have to do with anything? I say put Hannigan at leadoff, he gets on, phillips drives him over and Votto Drives him in. Fast is way overrated...:)

Fast over rated?

Speed Never Slumps sir...

brm7675
01-03-2011, 07:34 PM
Fast over rated?

Speed Never Slumps sir...

It does when it's on the bench. Give me a slow OB guy over a fast NOT on base guy any day. Willie T. was fast...yep that helped. Stubbs is fast, but if he can't get on base what good is it. You don't plate runs if you don't get on base.

Hondo
01-03-2011, 07:36 PM
It does when it's on the bench. Give me a slow OB guy over a fast NOT on base guy any day. Willie T. was fast...yep that helped. Stubbs is fast, but if he can't get on base what good is it. You don't plate runs if you don't get on base.

If your plan for a lead off hitter is Hanigan...

This conversation will not continue...

brm7675
01-03-2011, 07:42 PM
If your plan for a lead off hitter is Hanigan...

This conversation will not continue...

Yea we would hate to ahve someone in the leadoff position who actually has a good obp....

markymark69
01-03-2011, 08:41 PM
I think if you look back, while a nice player, Dusty favored Hatts over Votto way to long and it cost the team. No the first 2 months of the season ARE NOT the first half. the first half is April/May/June till mid july.

Hannigan is young and better but Hernandez is the "well traveled" experience vet who see's more playing time except when he is hurt. How do you know what a young player can or can not do if he doesn't play everyday? You don't learn and mature rusting away on the bench. So...you really don't see the Reds adding Pods or Renteria?

brm - you are wrong again. Hatteberg played 34 games and had 52 AB's in 2008 - mostly as a pinch-hitter. Votto 151 games, 526 AB's - how did that cost the team? Do some research.

I did not say that April and May are the first half, but it's a part of the first half, taken on the whole, which most people do, and not just part - that helped him have a good first half and it was because of what he did in April and May that caused him to stay in the line-up. Again, how did it hurt the team - oh wait I know, they would have 92 games instead of 91.

Hanigan is 29 and will be 30 in August - that by baseball players standards is not what most consider young. Again, Hernandez and Hanigan for the most part split time - remember Hanigan did break his hand and was on the DL for a while. Did all the extra time that Hernandez played really hurt the team? I don't think so.

Let me say I'm not a fan of adding Pods and Renteria, but if they sign, I believe that they will be back-ups, part-time players.

You like young players, we all understand that. But your point that Dusty does not play young guys is just not true. Again, you're mad because Heisey and Janish didn't play, this team won 91 games and made the playoffs for the first time in 15 years and you're whining about two guys who didn't play much, what are you their agent or something?

Walt and Dusty know what they're doing - I'll will trust them. Just because you say playing the vet and sitting a young guy hurts the team doesn't make it so. It worked pretty well last year.

For the third time - when and if Pods and/or Renteria become Reds then and only then will be it an issue. It's not right now.

brm7675
01-03-2011, 08:45 PM
brm - you are wrong again. Hatteberg played 34 games and had 52 AB's in 2008 - mostly as a pinch-hitter. Votto 151 games, 526 AB's - how did that cost the team? Do some research.

I did not say that April and May are the first half, but it's a part of the first half, taken on the whole, which most people do, and not just part - that helped him have a good first half and it was because of what he did in April and May that caused him to stay in the line-up. Again, how did it hurt the team - oh wait I know, they would have 92 games instead of 91.

Hanigan is 29 and will be 30 in August - that by baseball players standards is not what most consider young. Again, Hernandez and Hanigan for the most part split time - remember Hanigan did break his hand and was on the DL for a while. Did all the extra time that Hernandez played really hurt the team? I don't think so.

Let me say I'm not a fan of adding Pods and Renteria, but if they sign, I believe that they will be back-ups, part-time players.

You like young players, we all understand that. But your point that Dusty does not play young guys is just not true. Again, you're mad because Heisey and Janish didn't play, this team won 91 games and made the playoffs for the first time in 15 years and you're whining about two guys who didn't play much, what are you their agent or something?

Walt and Dusty know what they're doing - I'll will trust them. Just because you say playing the vet and sitting a young guy hurts the team doesn't make it so. It worked pretty well last year.

For the third time - when and if Pods and/or Renteria become Reds then and only then will be it an issue. It's not right now.

Why are they even being considered? Doesn't it bother you that neither are GM nor manager has any faith in their farm system? The purpose of signing players is to improve your team, neither of these guys do that, and to even consider it shows you something that should scare all Reds Fans...

Also trust me on this if one or both signed, both will see at least 350-400 AB's this coming season which is way to many.

Hondo
01-03-2011, 10:56 PM
Why are they even being considered? Doesn't it bother you that neither are GM nor manager has any faith in their farm system? The purpose of signing players is to improve your team, neither of these guys do that, and to even consider it shows you something that should scare all Reds Fans...

Also trust me on this if one or both signed, both will see at least 350-400 AB's this coming season which is way to many.

Trust him

Good Enough for me! :D

markymark69
01-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Why are they even being considered? Doesn't it bother you that neither are GM nor manager has any faith in their farm system? The purpose of signing players is to improve your team, neither of these guys do that, and to even consider it shows you something that should scare all Reds Fans...

Also trust me on this if one or both signed, both will see at least 350-400 AB's this coming season which is way to many.

For the last time - if they sign then it will be an issue. Not until then. The fact that they are looking really doesn't matter. I can look at a cadillac, but until I buy it, its not mine.

Let me reiterrate - I hope this doesn't happen - the fact that they are looking does not prove your point. I'm stating what I believe will happen if they sign. They will be back-ups. You believe they will play alot - we'll agree to disagree. All this is is speculation and spit in the wind until they sign. It means nothing at this point.

brm7675
01-04-2011, 03:31 PM
For the last time - if they sign then it will be an issue. Not until then. The fact that they are looking really doesn't matter. I can look at a cadillac, but until I buy it, its not mine.

Let me reiterrate - I hope this doesn't happen - the fact that they are looking does not prove your point. I'm stating what I believe will happen if they sign. They will be back-ups. You believe they will play alot - we'll agree to disagree. All this is is speculation and spit in the wind until they sign. It means nothing at this point.

No history with Dusty shows us he will play them, that is what is scary:eek:

markymark69
01-04-2011, 04:28 PM
No history with Dusty shows us he will play them, that is what is scary:eek:

At this point - THEY ARE NOT ON THE TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! Why make it an issue when it not an issue?

brm7675
01-04-2011, 04:37 PM
At this point - THEY ARE NOT ON THE TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! Why make it an issue when it not an issue?

no they are not, but just having Walt even Consider either one is down right sickening. To think that either one of these guys bring anything to the table that we don't already have and would take away playing time from younger talent is NOT what i want to see from my GM...do you?

Hondo
01-04-2011, 04:39 PM
no they are not, but just having Walt even Consider either one is down right sickening. To think that either one of these guys bring anything to the table that we don't already have and would take away playing time from younger talent is NOT what i want to see from my GM...do you?

Hey, Bdsm! I have a Gold Fish!

markymark69
01-04-2011, 04:42 PM
no they are not, but just having Walt even Consider either one is down right sickening. To think that either one of these guys bring anything to the table that we don't already have and would take away playing time from younger talent is NOT what i want to see from my GM...do you?

Just because a player is young doesn't mean he's good and the same holds true for veteran players. Walt and Dusty are doing good some things, get on board with it and stop whining about every little thing they do or even think about doing?

Both guys have other suitors, so those teams must be idiotic too. Beat a different drum please.

brm7675
01-04-2011, 04:46 PM
Just because a player is young doesn't mean he's good and the same holds true for a veteran players. Walt and Dusty are doing good some things, get on board with it and stop whining about every little they do or even think about doing?

Both guys have other suitors, so they must be idiotic too. Beat a different drum please.

We KNOW the old guys are not good, we do know that the young players have a higher chance of producing, so why not give them the shot? Sorry it is inexcuseable to sit back and allow our GM and manager to possibly ruin what could be a very good thing. Let the other teams have them, and yes the Reds are not the lone stupid team in baseball...See Philly, Washington, TX and SD as other off season examples of stupidity in baseball.

markymark69
01-04-2011, 05:03 PM
We KNOW the old guys are not good, we do know that the young players have a higher chance of producing, so why not give them the shot? Sorry it is inexcuseable to sit back and allow our GM and manager to possibly ruin what could be a very good thing. Let the other teams have them, and yes the Reds are not the lone stupid team in baseball...See Philly, Washington, TX and SD as other off season examples of stupidity in baseball.

What do you not understand about Janish will get his shot? - Walt and Dusty have both indicated this. Right now Janish does not have a back-up - a veteran back-up at shortstop is not a bad idea. It's not going to ruin the team if Renteria comes in. If the World Champion Giants are considering bringing back Renteria and according to reports they are - I guess it makes them morons too.

I don't know what they think of Heisey, perhaps they feel he's not ready to play everyday - I agree with that - will he be eventually, who knows. I believe they like him or they would have traded by now.

Gomes will be the predominant leftfielder this season imo no matter who else is on the roster. Even if Pods or Hermida or Renteria would play a lot no one can really can say for sure if that will cost the Reds games, no more than saying playing Janish and Heisey will help them win.

For a guy that claims to be a Reds fan you do an awful lot of whining about stuff that doesn't really matter. They went to the playoffs last year and are set up to be good for a while and both Walt and Dusty had a lot to do with that. They obviously know what they're doing.

Enjoy it.

Lockdwn11
01-04-2011, 05:07 PM
You have to understand who you are dealing with. Go check out BRM post history and you will find that 99% is all Dusty bashing. You can't talk baseball with the guy because he isn't here to talk baseball he's here to bash Dusty.

brm7675
01-04-2011, 06:45 PM
You have to understand who you are dealing with. Go check out BRM post history and you will find that 99% is all Dusty bashing. You can't talk baseball with the guy because he isn't here to talk baseball he's here to bash Dusty.

I am bashing Walt on this one, to even consider bringing in either one of these old guys when you have younger, cheaper and better talent ALREADY ON THE TEAM is just stupid. You want a back up SS, go with what you have and see what they can do...

Hondo
01-04-2011, 07:01 PM
I am bashing Walt on this one, to even consider bringing in either one of these old guys when you have younger, cheaper and better talent ALREADY ON THE TEAM is just stupid. You want a back up SS, go with what you have and see what they can do...

I think they are going with Royce Clayton instead of Renteria...

NeilHamburger
01-04-2011, 08:12 PM
Fun Fact: The google ad at the top of the page for me is about going to the AARP official site.

brm7675
01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
I think they are going with Royce Clayton instead of Renteria...

Been there done that stunk with that...Go Paul...

Hondo
01-05-2011, 02:07 PM
Been there done that stunk with that...Go Paul...

That was obvious Sarcasm dude

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Well step one of the Walt's plan to help the "senior" sect of major league FA has happened, so how long till the other shoe drops...ugg I have lost all respect for Walt. I am unsure if he is capable of building a franchise...it may be time..

SHOW WALT THE DOOR....