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brm7675
01-05-2011, 04:55 PM
People keep saying the Reds don't have an 'ACE" pitcher presently on staff, so my question is what qualifications does it take to be termed an "ACE"?

Hondo
01-05-2011, 04:59 PM
People keep saying the Reds don't have an 'ACE" pitcher presently on staff, so my question is what qualifications does it take to be termed an "ACE"?

Have a three year-four year span of dominance under your belt...

brm7675
01-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Have a three year-four year span of dominance under your belt...

What do you consider "dominance"?

bounty37h
01-05-2011, 05:34 PM
IMO, its someone you feel comfortable throwing out against any team, any starter, any time of season, under any circumstance and feel 100% confident you will get the win. For example, I think Cueto has the arm to be an ace, but has not shown (IMO again) being able to dig down deeper when he needs to for that something extra, or to bounce back from a bad pitch and get the next one.
Another way, if you know the opposing pitcher/manager see's an ace starting against them and it makes them want to throw up and chalk up a loss before the N.A is sung.

Hondo
01-05-2011, 05:39 PM
What do you consider "dominance"?

Tim Lincecum, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roy Halladay, CC Sabethia

brm7675
01-05-2011, 05:56 PM
Tim Lincecum, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roy Halladay, CC Sabethia

Okay, so how many "Ace's" would you say are in the show right now. Of the four you listed, 2 are no longer playing.

Hondo
01-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Okay, so how many "Ace's" would you say are in the show right now. Of the four you listed, 2 are no longer playing.

I don't care. I just want One on the Team.

brm7675
01-05-2011, 06:08 PM
I don't care. I just want One on the Team.

Well gee sure, but with what 32 teams and maybe only 5-6 true Aces, the odds are not that great and to have one you must have the budget to support his worth, we don't.

wlf WV
01-05-2011, 06:16 PM
We had one year of one lately with Aaron Harang,half a year with Volquez. I thought he would be TOR(Harang),I was wrong again. We have several possibles,none established,but there's not many staffs I would swap with.A few, not many.

brm7675
01-05-2011, 06:46 PM
We had one year of one lately with Aaron Harang,half a year with Volquez. I thought he would be TOR(Harang),I was wrong again. We have several possibles,none established,but there's not many staffs I would swap with.A few, not many.

Looking at starting rotations in all of MLB there is only 1 that I think is better then the Reds and that is Philly. I would say SF is close, but they don't have the depth. Outside of that there is no other teams in MLB that I would trade staff with right now..

Hondo
01-05-2011, 06:54 PM
Looking at starting rotations in all of MLB there is only 1 that I think is better then the Reds and that is Philly. I would say SF is close, but they don't have the depth. Outside of that there is no other teams in MLB that I would trade staff with right now..

San Fransisco really doesn't have Depth?

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgartner, and Zito - and they have no depth?

You really have No idea what you are talking about do you?

brm7675
01-05-2011, 06:56 PM
San Fransisco really doesn't have Depth?

Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgartner, and Zito - and they have no depth?

You really have No idea what you are talking about do you?

Zito? Your joking right? He is so good they left him off the playoff roster:p:
Sanchez is okay, but nothing better then what we have and Bumgartner I would say is equal to either Wood or Leake. There top two are very very good, but depth wise, nope give me the Reds.

Hondo
01-05-2011, 07:09 PM
Zito? Your joking right? He is so good they left him off the playoff roster:p:
Sanchez is okay, but nothing better then what we have and Bumgartner I would say is equal to either Wood or Leake. There top two are very very good, but depth wise, nope give me the Reds.

Yes because in a 7 Game Series with the off days, you would go with Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, and Bumgartner... and keep an extra pinch hitter or a reliever...

But here is the whole point to your argument, depth...

Zito out of the 4/5 hole last year for S.F. won 9 Games, pitched 199 Innings, and had a 4.15 ERA along with 150K

That out of your 4-5 guy is pretty good depth...

brm7675
01-05-2011, 07:22 PM
Yes because in a 7 Game Series with the off days, you would go with Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, and Bumgartner... and keep an extra pinch hitter or a reliever...

But here is the whole point to your argument, depth...

Zito out of the 4/5 hole last year for S.F. won 9 Games, pitched 199 Innings, and had a 4.15 ERA along with 150K

That out of your 4-5 guy is pretty good depth...

pretty good is right, but depth wise i still stick with the Reds. I will take our 4-5 guys over their 4-5 guys anyday. The giants have a better 1-2 punch right now (although Lincecum did show some issues last season) but 3-4-5 I go with Reds, PLUS you add in we do have a 6th option in either Bailey or Leake and possibly a 7th option with chapman at some point.

Hondo
01-05-2011, 07:44 PM
pretty good is right, but depth wise i still stick with the Reds. I will take our 4-5 guys over their 4-5 guys anyday. The giants have a better 1-2 punch right now (although Lincecum did show some issues last season) but 3-4-5 I go with Reds, PLUS you add in we do have a 6th option in either Bailey or Leake and possibly a 7th option with chapman at some point.

I thinkthe Reds have the potential to have a better staff...

Think about this... If the Reds would have drafted Lincecum instead of Stubbs where would this team be????

brm7675
01-05-2011, 08:11 PM
I thinkthe Reds have the potential to have a better staff...

Think about this... If the Reds would have drafted Lincecum instead of Stubbs where would this team be????

Same place, the career span of Stubbs I believe will be longer and mean more to the Reds.

Nathan
01-05-2011, 09:32 PM
Looking at starting rotations in all of MLB there is only 1 that I think is better then the Reds and that is Philly. I would say SF is close, but they don't have the depth. Outside of that there is no other teams in MLB that I would trade staff with right now..

Tampa? Boston?

MikeThierry
01-05-2011, 09:35 PM
I think to qualify as an ace you have to not only have pin point accuracy but that intangible "it" factor. An ace intimidates their opponents. Obviously low ERA is an important factor. I think Cueto does have the potential be an ace but he is too wild to be put in this factor. Plus he doesn't have that fear factor yet.

MikeThierry
01-05-2011, 09:38 PM
Another thing an Ace must have is one or two signature pitches. This pitch must be so good that batters strike out even when they know its coming. Wainwright is a perfect example of this. When batters are in a 0-2 count, they know the nasty curve is coming but 99% of the time they either wiff at it or hit a weak ground ball.

Cant Touch This
01-06-2011, 09:46 AM
Another thing an Ace must have is one or two signature pitches. This pitch must be so good that batters strike out even when they know its coming. Wainwright is a perfect example of this. When batters are in a 0-2 count, they know the nasty curve is coming but 99% of the time they either wiff at it or hit a weak ground ball.

Mike Scott and his split-finger fastball support this theory.

In another thread, I wrote a long, rambling explanation as to why I hope the Reds front office exercises patience with our core of young pitchers. The following starting (or potential starting) pitchers have thrown fewer than 400 innings in their entire MLB careers:

Volquez, Bailey, Leake, Wood, Chapman. Cueto has thrown 531.

The point is, any single one of those guys has the potential to earn that "ace" label. Outside of Tom Seaver and Roger Clemens, it's hard to find a pitcher who was "ace" dominant in his first few seasons or 500 innings of major league service. This list includes Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Pedro Martinez, and Randy Johnson.

Personally, I'm giddy with excitement over what this pitching staff can do. I think the term depth should reflect more than the top 3 pitchers in a rotation. Major injuries happen every year, so it's the teams that have quality arms behind the top 3 starters that can survive those injuries. The Reds could theoretically lose two of those SPs for the year and still trot a quality arm to the mound every game. They're 6 deep at SP...7 if you throw Chapman into an emergency role.

Now that's deep.

It would be foolish and biased to not give the edge to Philadelphia in terms of quality starting pitching right out of the gate this year. As mentioned on this thread, there are only a handful of aces in the league right now and the Phillies have two of them, followed by a couple of quality arms behind them. Now, who are their 5-7 pitchers? My feeling is the Reds are deeper at SP, but the Phils are proven.

I like the SF rotation, but I would not trade the Reds rotation for it. Not a chance.

UPRedsFan
01-06-2011, 10:42 AM
Here's a way to look at it.

If you rank the starting rotations by year....

Based on 2010 performance obviously the Phils and Giants as currently staffed, and maybe the Brewers are ahead of the Reds.

2011- arguable because you don't know about injuries and how much the Reds depth will give them a competitive advantage. You might still predict the Phils and Giants to perform better. But no team has 7 starters as talented as the Reds.

2012 - No doubt, the Reds staff is the one I want. The Giants are fairly young too, but again they don't go 6 or 7 deep. The Phils will be depleted somewhat (will Oswalt and Lee still be as effective?).

2013 - Still the Reds. I wouldn't trade staffs with anyone in baseball as you look to 2012 and 2013.

UPRedsFan
01-06-2011, 10:45 AM
Regarding the definition of an ACE, it's someone who can dominate the other team.

We've seen Wood do it. We've seen Volquez do it. We've seen Cueto do it.

We've seen Chapman do it in relief.

Those are my 4 candidates

MikeThierry
01-06-2011, 10:13 PM
I still think the Cards starting rotation is better in 2011 than the Reds. Now down the road you are right, the Reds look really good and the Cards will fade unless Shelby Miller becomes the phenom we think he will be. Even with all of the problems had last year in the 4 and 5 spot in the rotation, the Cards starting rotation had one of the top ERA's in baseball. I still think the Reds need to find an Ace before you can put them ahead of the Phillies, Giants, Cardinals, Brewers, and Padres.

There is one caviot to this whole Ace talk and that is the Padres. Their ballpark allows them to get away from having a true lock down ace. That said, Matt Latos is on his way to Acedom.