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texasdave
01-06-2011, 02:49 PM
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/06/report-edgar-renteria-signs-a-one-year-3-million-deal-with-the-reds/

From MLBTraderumors: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/


The Reds have agreed to sign Edgar Renteria, according to Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago.com. The deal could be worth as much as $3MM with an incentive package, according to Levine. The team could announce the agreement today. Agents Jeffrey Lane and Barry Meister represent the 2010 World Series MVP.

SidneySlicker
01-06-2011, 02:55 PM
Not sure how much he has in the tank. When are the going to address this position for the future instead of one year bandaids?

Hondo
01-06-2011, 02:57 PM
BDSM just had a Heart Attack

texasdave
01-06-2011, 02:59 PM
Walt must be grinning now looking at his checklist.

Left-handed reliever...Dontrelle Willis......CHECK
Left-field platoon partner...Jeremy Hermida....CHECK
Shortstop......Edgar Renteria....CHECK

They aren't paying Renteria 3 million plus incentives to ride the pines.
Paul Janish go sit in the corner again.

Sweet.

davereds24
01-06-2011, 03:07 PM
Walt must be grinning now looking at his checklist.

Left-handed reliever...Dontrelle Willis......CHECK
Left-field platoon partner...Jeremy Hermida....CHECK
Shortstop......Edgar Renteria....CHECK

They aren't paying Renteria 3 million plus incentives to ride the pines.
Paul Janish go sit in the corner again.

Sweet.

It's 3 mil with incentives, not plus incentives.

He only started 62 games last year. I highly doubt he's an everyday starter. Probably 50/50 or 60/40 if one of them gets hot.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 03:11 PM
It's 3 mil with incentives, not plus incentives.

He only started 62 games last year. I highly doubt he's an everyday starter. Probably 50/50 or 60/40 if one of them gets hot.

Well if he makes 3 Million...

The Reds should have taken that 3 Million, the 3 Million given to Hernadez, and the 1 Million given to Cairo and put it towards a true difference maker...

These moves are more of the, making a move to make a move, as some of you have been telling me the Reds Shouldn't do... When I talk about the Reds paying BJ Upton 4-5 Million, or the Reds making the Trade for Greinke instead for 13.5 Million...

I mean, who would you rather have

Cairo, Renteria, and Hernadez for 7 Million

or

Greinke for 13.5 Million


Paying only 6.5 Million more???? Plus I understand another 1.2 Million to replace the 3 Mentioned players...

PhatHead
01-06-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't like this signing at all. Money could have been better spent.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 03:16 PM
I just puked, this is by far the dumbest thing Walt could do. He overpays for a AARP player, and now gives Dusty a reason for not playing Janish. So now we have this HUGE FREAKIN BLACK HOLE on the right side of the infield. Watch folks as our pitchers implode due to excessive basehits to the right side. OMG a right side of the field of Gomes/Rolen and now Edgar...yep that is winning baseball.

3 million dollars...folks we have another lottery winner

Hondo
01-06-2011, 03:17 PM
I don't like this signing at all. Money could have been better spent.

Exactley. Read my previous post.

Pony Boy
01-06-2011, 03:20 PM
Well if he makes 3 Million...

The Reds should have taken that 3 Million, the 3 Million given to Hernadez, and the 1 Million given to Cairo and put it towards a true difference maker...


If he makes $3 million it probably means that he had a heck of a year.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 03:22 PM
If he makes $3 million it probably means that he had a heck of a year.

Probably, Might, Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda

I would rather go with a Long Term fix...

Kingspoint
01-06-2011, 03:29 PM
What a stupid signing.

The impact on stupidity that Dusty Baker has on this team never ceases to amaze me.

Renteria is just another, in a long line of jokes, that Dusty Baker likes to throw out there every game in order to sabotage a perfectly hopeful season.

757690
01-06-2011, 03:29 PM
Nice move.

I love Janish, but I think he needs a veteran backup. Renteria can still field and be a fine backup to SS and 2B. I doubt he sees much regular playing time unless someone is hurt, which is the main reason why this is a good signing. It provides depth.

Kingspoint
01-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Nice move.

I love Janish, but I think he needs a veteran backup. Renteria can still field and be a fine backup to SS and 2B. I doubt he sees much regular playing time unless someone is hurt, which is the main reason why this is a good signing. It provides depth.

A veteran backup?

You know that Janish will be the backup.

Renteria will be Baker's new favorite player.

SeeinRed
01-06-2011, 03:34 PM
Paying only 6.5 Million more???? Plus I understand another 1.2 Million to replace the 3 Mentioned players...

And then there is also the fact that the Reds would've had to give up more talent in the trade for Greinke. You didn't add that into the equation.

So, use that money to help with depth at multiple positions, or create more holes in your roster AND almost double that amount for one starting pitcher.... Makes perfect sense to me.:rolleyes:

I really can't wait for the season to start so we don't have all the free time to hear this argument anymore.

Pony Boy
01-06-2011, 03:36 PM
Probably, Might, Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda

I would rather go with a Long Term fix...

Sorry, but there is no long-term fix at SS that can reasonably be acquired this offseason. Hopefully, the long-term fix is Billy Hamilton and he is years away. Until then Walt is smart to try to solidify the position as best he can.

I don't love Renteria. My initial thought when Renteria's name first came up a this offseason was hell no, but I think we will look back on this move by Walt as a good one.

-He is cheap. Yes, $3 million (if he hits incentives) is cheap.
-It is a 1-year deal.
-He gives us another vet infield option besides Cairo.
-He is a clutch hitter that can hit good pitching.
-We desperately need another SS.
-He had an excellent, AS-caliber season as recently as 2007.

I don't get the complaints about this move.

Vottomatic
01-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Yawn.

Bob and Walt are boring the crud out of me.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Nice move.

I love Janish, but I think he needs a veteran backup. Renteria can still field and be a fine backup to SS and 2B. I doubt he sees much regular playing time unless someone is hurt, which is the main reason why this is a good signing. It provides depth.

How many "backups" do you know make 3+ million a season? He can't play the field, he can't hit...so how is this a good signing?

Hondo
01-06-2011, 03:41 PM
Sorry, but there is no long-term fix at SS that can reasonably be acquired this offseason. Hopefully, the long-term fix is Billy Hamilton and he is years away. Until then Walt is smart to try to solidify the position as best he can.

I don't love Renteria. My initial thought when Renteria's name first came up a this offseason was hell no, but I think we will look back on this move by Walt as a good one.

-He is cheap. Yes, $3 million (if he hits incentives) is cheap.
-It is a 1-year deal.
-He gives us another vet infield option besides Cairo.
-He is a clutch hitter that can hit good pitching.
-We desperately need another SS.
-He had an excellent, AS-caliber season as recently as 2007.

I don't get the complaints about this move.


Reasonably? That is the exact problem with the front office...

This is about trying to win a world series, not trying to reasonably find affordable window dressing for your house...

Hondo
01-06-2011, 03:42 PM
How many "backups" do you know make 3+ million a season? He can't play the field, he can't hit...so how is this a good signing?

You know he's not the back up right?

I would actually rather have had Janish be the starter than Renteria signed...

brm7675
01-06-2011, 03:44 PM
You know he's not the back up right?

I would actually rather have had Janish be the starter than Renteria signed...

But Hondo...that is what Walt said and you know Dusty, he will play janish..;)

757690
01-06-2011, 03:49 PM
How many "backups" do you know make 3+ million a season? He can't play the field, he can't hit...so how is this a good signing?

He can play the field, better than Cabrera did last season when the Reds won the division.

He is getting a deal worth up to $3M in incentives, which means that only if he starts enough games, he will get $3M.

757690
01-06-2011, 03:51 PM
Reasonably? That is the exact problem with the front office...

This is about trying to win a world series, not trying to reasonably find affordable window dressing for your house...

Championship teams are the ones that get the most value out of every position. Reasonableness is probably the most important quality in a GM these days.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 03:51 PM
He can play the field, better than Cabrera did last season when the Reds won the division.

He is getting a deal worth up to $3M in incentives, which means that only if he starts enough games, he will get $3M.

Wow we go from bad SS to slightly bad SS...wow now there is an improvement. He will start every game, he will play every night and on Sunday. This is a very very very very very x 100 day in Cincy as the Mighty Walt has struke out...:thumbdown

brm7675
01-06-2011, 03:53 PM
Championship teams are the ones that get the most value out of every position. Reasonableness is probably the most important quality in a GM these days.

Right now someone needs to wake Walt up and remind him this is not the late 90's early 00's and that there is no rule in MLB that teams have to have X number of senior players on their roster. I am just guessing here but I wonder if Walt thinks that since he lost a senior player in Arthur that he had to add one....

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Great signing. He's not the best option out there, but it's a lot better than we had.

BLark = HOF
01-06-2011, 03:59 PM
You guys need to relax on the $3 mil. It's based on incentives. Meaning if he does earn the $3 mil he had a pretty good reason. Plus he is the back up, so he probably won't be able to earn that $3 mil cuz the won't play enough to get those incentives. The guy is a good clutch hitter. I like the move a lot. Like one of the previous post says, there is no possible long-term solution the Reds could have aquired this off-season. Renteria is not going to make or break out team. He is just apart of it. Relax guys, Walt knows what he is doing. Just have confidence.

Stray
01-06-2011, 03:59 PM
I like the signing. We're not bringing him in to start 150 games or anything. Expecting that and production from Janish was a stretch as well. Another player that has been in big games and brings experience to the club is a good thing. We could have done better, but we're better off now than we were with Janish being the only option.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Championship teams are the ones that get the most value out of every position. Reasonableness is probably the most important quality in a GM these days.

I don't think we're on the same page here...

Yes. Signing players to a reasonable salary is important, but what would you rather have, Renteria at 3 Million, Hernadez at 3 Million, and Cairo at 1 Million, or one good piece that will really help the team for that 7 Million to 10 Million?

DocRed
01-06-2011, 04:01 PM
I like the signing...at worst he is a quality backup with experience, who has playoff experience. I also don't believe $3million is too much for a quality backup SS, and again that is with incentives.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Right now someone needs to wake Walt up and remind him this is not the late 90's early 00's and that there is no rule in MLB that teams have to have X number of senior players on their roster. I am just guessing here but I wonder if Walt thinks that since he lost a senior player in Arthur that he had to add one....

Listen. If you keep adding young player to the team and develop them, you're never going to win. Tell me how 2001-2009 worked out when we were getting young players and "developing" them. Renteria was a great signing who has had consistent hitting his whole career and has won two gold gloves. His defense has slipped since he has won them, but he can still get the job done.

757690
01-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Wow we go from bad SS to slightly bad SS...wow now there is an improvement. He will start every game, he will play every night and on Sunday. This is a very very very very very x 100 day in Cincy as the Mighty Walt has struke out...:thumbdown

Well see, but every indication is that Renteria will be the middle inf backup. I think that is what took so long to sign him. He was hoping for an offer with more playing time, but didn't get it.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:03 PM
I don't think we're on the same page here...

Yes. Signing players to a reasonable salary is important, but what would you rather have, Renteria at 3 Million, Hernadez at 3 Million, and Cairo at 1 Million, or one good piece that will really help the team for that 7 Million to 10 Million?

Name one player in the league who will sign for 7-10 million at SS who will help the team more than Renteria?..You can't? Exactly.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:04 PM
Great signing. He's not the best option out there, but it's a lot better than we had.

You joking right?

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:06 PM
You joking right?

I'm 100% serious. Who would you rather have? Jose Reyes? Good luck getting him.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:06 PM
You guys need to relax on the $3 mil. It's based on incentives. Meaning if he does earn the $3 mil he had a pretty good reason. Plus he is the back up, so he probably won't be able to earn that $3 mil cuz the won't play enough to get those incentives. The guy is a good clutch hitter. I like the move a lot. Like one of the previous post says, there is no possible long-term solution the Reds could have aquired this off-season. Renteria is not going to make or break out team. He is just apart of it. Relax guys, Walt knows what he is doing. Just have confidence.

He won't be the backup. Please stop saying that, he is, will be and already penciled in as your everyday SS and right now leadoff hitter. How do i know this...SIMPLE LOOK AT LAST SEASON. Dusty hates Janish, all he needs is a warm body and he will play him at SS over janish. The only thing we can hope is that Edgar has an injury in ST and is DL for the season, becasue if not, he will see 140+ games and 500+ ABs.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:07 PM
He won't be the backup. Please stop saying that, he is, will be and already penciled in as your everyday SS and right now leadoff hitter. How do i know this...SIMPLE LOOK AT LAST SEASON. Dusty hates Janish, all he needs is a warm body and he will play him at SS over janish. The only thing we can hope is that Edgar has an injury in ST and is DL for the season, becasue if not, he will see 140+ games and 500+ ABs.

With the offensive numbers Renteria puts up, I'll be 100% happy if Renteria gets 500+ ABs a year.

757690
01-06-2011, 04:08 PM
I don't think we're on the same page here...

Yes. Signing players to a reasonable salary is important, but what would you rather have, Renteria at 3 Million, Hernadez at 3 Million, and Cairo at 1 Million, or one good piece that will really help the team for that 7 Million to 10 Million?

But if you get that one good piece, you have to live with Miller starting around 60-80 games at catcher, and having Cozart be the backup SS, when he is not ready and needs another season to develop. How much better would that one good piece be than what the Reds already have? Would it offset those loses?

Hondo
01-06-2011, 04:08 PM
He won't be the backup. Please stop saying that, he is, will be and already penciled in as your everyday SS and right now leadoff hitter. How do i know this...SIMPLE LOOK AT LAST SEASON. Dusty hates Janish, all he needs is a warm body and he will play him at SS over janish. The only thing we can hope is that Edgar has an injury in ST and is DL for the season, becasue if not, he will see 140+ games and 500+ ABs.

He hasn't played 140 games in 3 years

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Listen. If you keep adding young player to the team and develop them, you're never going to win. Tell me how 2001-2009 worked out when we were getting young players and "developing" them. Renteria was a great signing who has had consistent hitting his whole career and has won two gold gloves. His defense has slipped since he has won them, but he can still get the job done.

If your younger players suck, then you are right, but we have good young talent and there is the difference. What in his past 3 years tells you that Edgar is any better then any of the young talent we have on the roster/farm system now? You even admit his defense has slipped, so now we have two declining fielders on the left side of the infield and a horrible fielding LF, yep that screams winning.

Stray
01-06-2011, 04:09 PM
He won't be the backup. Please stop saying that, he is, will be and already penciled in as your everyday SS and right now leadoff hitter. How do i know this...SIMPLE LOOK AT LAST SEASON. Dusty hates Janish, all he needs is a warm body and he will play him at SS over janish. The only thing we can hope is that Edgar has an injury in ST and is DL for the season, becasue if not, he will see 140+ games and 500+ ABs.

What makes you think Renteria could even play as many games as you're 'assuming' Dusty will pencil him in for? He's come here as a backup, and all of the Dusty hating aside, that is what he's going to be.

Adding depth to that position makes the team better. Going into 2011 with Janish being your only real option would not have been smart.

It's an incentive based deal, so assuming he even makes that 3 million dollars then it will be money well spent. I don't understand the negative reactions to this....

Hondo
01-06-2011, 04:10 PM
But if you get that one good piece, you have to live with Miller starting around 60-80 games at catcher, and having Cozart be the backup SS, when he is not ready and needs another season to develop. How much better would that one good piece be than what the Reds already have? Would it offset those loses?

I honestly think the Reds would be able to add another vetran Catcher for 500,000 closert to ST... I would just as soon see Hanigan get 125ish starts and have another Vetran Catcher be his back up playing 1/4 of the Games...

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Well see, but every indication is that Renteria will be the middle inf backup. I think that is what took so long to sign him. He was hoping for an offer with more playing time, but didn't get it.

You don't pay 3 million dollars for a backup middle infielder. Dusty doesn't use vets as backups, he starts them.

757690
01-06-2011, 04:10 PM
He won't be the backup. Please stop saying that, he is, will be and already penciled in as your everyday SS and right now leadoff hitter. How do i know this...SIMPLE LOOK AT LAST SEASON. Dusty hates Janish, all he needs is a warm body and he will play him at SS over janish. The only thing we can hope is that Edgar has an injury in ST and is DL for the season, becasue if not, he will see 140+ games and 500+ ABs.

Dusty was quoted as saying that they brought in Cabrera last season because they felt that Janish needed on season as backup before he was ready to start everyday.

Janish will start the season as the Reds SS barring injury. Renteria will be his backup. Period.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 04:11 PM
What makes you think Renteria could even play as many games as you're 'assuming' Dusty will pencil him in for? He's come here as a backup, and all of the Dusty hating aside, that is what he's going to be.

Adding depth to that position makes the team better. Going into 2011 with Janish being your only real option would not have been smart.

It's an incentive based deal, so assuming he even makes that 3 million dollars then it will be money well spent. I don't understand the negative reactions to this....

I don't have a problem with the depth move but this isn't depth, this is Wal't Big Off Season given his Payroll restraints, where as I think the Payroll should be closer to 90-95 Million like the Astros, Brewers, and Cardinals...

Stray
01-06-2011, 04:13 PM
You don't pay 3 million dollars for a backup middle infielder. Dusty doesn't use vets as backups, he starts them.

Give me a break. Dusty has played a lot of young players. Renteria can no longer be an everyday SS so he signed an incentive based deal to split time/be a backup here in Cincy.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:13 PM
If your younger players suck, then you are right, but we have good young talent and there is the difference. What in his past 3 years tells you that Edgar is any better then any of the young talent we have on the roster/farm system now? You even admit his defense has slipped, so now we have two declining fielders on the left side of the infield and a horrible fielding LF, yep that screams winning.

How many times will a young prospect be able to out preform a previous silver slugger/gold glove/WS MVP winner?

Stray
01-06-2011, 04:15 PM
I don't have a problem with the depth move but this isn't depth, this is Wal't Big Off Season given his Payroll restraints, where as I think the Payroll should be closer to 90-95 Million like the Astros, Brewers, and Cardinals...

He's come here as a backup that will likely get a decent amount of playing time in an offense friendly ballpark. The team was already contenders before this move so we're not going to ask him to do more than fill his role.

It's pretty simple to me. We're a better team right now than we were before. I like it.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:16 PM
I'll put it this way. Janish and Renteria basically played the same amount of time last year. Their stats are very similar, with Renteria doing a little bit better both offensively AND defensively. With this being said...who would you rather take? The young guy or the experienced guy who has proved himself?

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:19 PM
I'll put it this way. Janish and Renteria basically played the same amount of time last year. Their stats are very similar, with Renteria doing a little bit better both offensively AND defensively. With this being said...who would you rather take? The young guy or the experienced guy who has proved himself?

In this case I take Janish everyday and twice on Sunday. Renteria is washed up and has done nothing but decline over the previous seasons. People want to a brief outburst in the WS as proof he can still bring it, well to those people where was he in the NL playoffs? How much did he bring against the Braves and phillies? He is washed up, why can't people see this?

bounty37h
01-06-2011, 04:20 PM
Exactley. Read my previous post.

The world is crashing, BRM7575 and Hondo are in agreement ;)
For the record, I strongly agree with both on this one.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:22 PM
How many times will a young prospect be able to out preform a previous silver slugger/gold glove/WS MVP winner?

Can you please list the dates of that Silver Slugger award and gold glove? Also what does WS MVP show? I mean really he got hot for what like 4 games? Or was it he had 1 great game and the others sucked and no other player for the Giants really shined or wait? Could it be he hit the winning 3 run homerun and thus was given the "WS MVP" award

Biff Pocoroba
01-06-2011, 04:23 PM
should I assume that the same people who are railing about this move by Walt were railing about the Scott Rolen trade and signing Cairo?

We brought in another veteran that has been there, done that. His pay will reflect his role on the team - be it as an everyday player, a platoon or an occasional pinch hitter.

I don't understand the alarm.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Can you please list the dates of that Silver Slugger award and gold glove? Also what does WS MVP show? I mean really he got hot for what like 4 games? Or was it he had 1 great game and the others sucked and no other player for the Giants really shined or wait? Could it be he hit the winning 3 run homerun and thus was given the "WS MVP" award

2000, 2002, 2003 Silver Slugger
2002, 2003 Gold Glove

Now before you say, "that was a long time ago". Look at his stats for those years. Look at his stats last year. He was statistically on pace to do better last year than he did in the years in which he won those awards.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:26 PM
should I assume that the same people who are railing about this move by Walt were railing about the Scott Rolen trade and signing Cairo?

We brought in another veteran that has been there, done that. His pay will reflect his role on the team - be it as an everyday player, a platoon or an occasional pinch hitter.

I don't understand the alarm.

A) Rolen still had skills when he was brought in.
B) Cairo has never been anything but a backup, Edgar is a starter
C) Edgar has no skills at this point that is better then what the Reds already have, why waste limited resources?

brm7675
01-06-2011, 04:27 PM
2000, 2002, 2003 Silver Slugger
2002, 2003 Gold Glove

Now before you say, "that was a long time ago". Look at his stats for those years. Look at his stats last year. He was statistically on pace to do better last year than he did in the years in which he won those awards.

Wow 7 years ago...Did he do better? you are pointing to stats that are over 7 years old? Talk about a reach...;)

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:28 PM
C) Edgar has no skills at this point that is better then what the Reds already have, why waste limited resources?

Which explains why Janish's year was worse than what Renteria has ever done.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 04:30 PM
Wow 7 years ago...Did he do better? you are pointing to stats that are over 7 years old? Talk about a reach...;)

How many Silver Sluggers has Janish won? How about Gold Gloves? How do Janish's stats compare to Renterias? If you look at it on paper, Renteria is all over a better player than Janish at this point. In a couple of year, it's a whole different story. But in 2011, Renteria is a better option than Janish.

DannyB
01-06-2011, 04:34 PM
I know one thing.
I wouldn't plan on many Sunday games.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 04:34 PM
How many Silver Sluggers has Janish won? How about Gold Gloves? How do Janish's stats compare to Renterias? If you look at it on paper, Renteria is all over a better player than Janish at this point. In a couple of year, it's a whole different story. But in 2011, Renteria is a better option than Janish.

I agree, this would have been a great move 7 years ago...

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
01-06-2011, 04:39 PM
A) Rolen still had skills when he was brought in.
B) Cairo has never been anything but a backup, Edgar is a starter
C) Edgar has no skills at this point that is better then what the Reds already have, why waste limited resources?This comment has absolutely no merit what so ever. What do the Reds already have? I'll give you that Janish has a better glove, but throwing out assumptions that Edgar can't out hit Janish is just foolish. The only basis you have for your statement is pure projection of Janish's numbers from last year, and without researching I would still say Edgar projects better than Janish. I'll take a guy that was a starter for a world series team that had a much worse offensive team than does the team in Cincy 10 days a week. I don't see ER starting 160 games this year, but I do believe that he can be counted on undoubtably more than you can bank on Janish at this point.

Red in Atl
01-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Hmm. We just signed last years WS MVP to an incentive laden contract to back up our "Quasi Rookie" shortstop.

THE SKY IS FALLING, RUN FOR THE HILLS, IT'S AN INVASION.

This site just bores the crap out of me sometimes.

New York Red
01-06-2011, 05:32 PM
I like the signing...at worst he is a quality backup with experience, who has playoff experience. I also don't believe $3million is too much for a quality backup SS, and again that is with incentives.
I agree. If he receives the incentives, then that means he performed at a pretty high level. And even if he's only a part-time/back-up/platoon etc. player, we could've done a lot worse.

Brisco
01-06-2011, 05:36 PM
Hmm. We just signed last years WS MVP to an incentive laden contract to back up our "Quasi Rookie" shortstop.

THE SKY IS FALLING, RUN FOR THE HILLS, IT'S AN INVASION.

This site just bores the crap out of me sometimes.

:thumbup:

New York Red
01-06-2011, 05:36 PM
I'll put it this way. Janish and Renteria basically played the same amount of time last year. Their stats are very similar, with Renteria doing a little bit better both offensively AND defensively. With this being said...who would you rather take? The young guy or the experienced guy who has proved himself?
I think it's at least debatable as to whether or not Janish has proven himself yet. In the meantime, I'll take a guy of Renteria's caliber (and playoff experience) until the verdict is reached on Janish.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 05:38 PM
I think it's at least debatable as to whether or not Janish has proven himself yet. In the meantime, I'll take a guy of Renteria's caliber (and playoff experience) until the verdict is reached on Janish.

I'm saying that Renteria has proven himself and Janish hasn't. Janish was (maybe) average at best last year when you compare him to other MLB SS.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-06-2011, 05:39 PM
funny, a great upgrade. No wait he is always on the DL with a hammy. I don't know men or ladies. I am not really confident about this. But I trust walt and his ability to do his job.

But my feeling is that every play that Paul doesn't get is another step back in his on the field grooming.

well I guess I might as well go and pay the Giants owner a visit and see if I can trade for Renteria as a handcough. I hate to take on his 8 million contract but I guess I will look to move Jamey Carroll or something. How pathetic. I had just traded for Janish

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 05:57 PM
Funny. Reds prospect Chris Denorfia.."GREAT PICK UP, THE GUY'S GOING TO BE GREAT." $1M Wasted. Reds prospect Homer Bailey.."THIS GUY CAN DEVELOP INTO AN ACE" $4+m Wasted. Reds prospect Ryan Freel.."LOOK HOW AGGRESSIVE THIS GUY IS, A FUTURE TEAM LEADER". $10+M wasted.

Scott Rolen 2009 trade.."THIS GUY IS ALL WASHED UP". $7M invested that lead us to a playoff appearance.

Miguel Cairo 2010..."TOO OLD TO CONSISTENTLY PREFORM". $500K for one of the best backups in the league.

This is how most have reacted to the pickups over the past decade or so. Look at what the expensive "prospects" we have picked up that have done very little for the organization compared to the "AARP" veterans that we have picked up at discounted rates who have lead us to our first playoff appearance in over a decade. Stop complaining.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 05:58 PM
Hmm. We just signed last years WS MVP to an incentive laden contract to back up our "Quasi Rookie" shortstop.

THE SKY IS FALLING, RUN FOR THE HILLS, IT'S AN INVASION.

This site just bores the crap out of me sometimes.

If the above statement was true, then you would be right, but the above statement is wrong. We just signed last years washed up SS to a contract to be the opening day SS and leadoff hitter and THAT is the problem.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 06:02 PM
All those applauding this move, I ask you this, if Edgar is such a great find and a great player and such, why didn't the Giants resign him? I mean come on, he was thier WS MVP and all and yet they didn't need to keep him? That is the difference between a winning franchise and a losing franchise...

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 06:10 PM
All those applauding this move, I ask you this, if Edgar is such a great find and a great player and such, why didn't the Giants resign him? I mean come on, he was thier WS MVP and all and yet they didn't need to keep him? That is the difference between a winning franchise and a losing franchise...

Because his contact extension would have cost the Giants $10.5M. He just isn't worth the price. It isn't because the Giants didn't want him back. The Giants even offered him a buyout, but it wasn't enough for Renteria. So the difference between the WS Champ and the Reds is that someone offered more money for the dude. Or am I missing something?

Hondo
01-06-2011, 06:16 PM
All those applauding this move, I ask you this, if Edgar is such a great find and a great player and such, why didn't the Giants resign him? I mean come on, he was thier WS MVP and all and yet they didn't need to keep him? That is the difference between a winning franchise and a losing franchise...

He felt disrespected because they only offered him 1 million...

brm7675
01-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Lets see we sign a player with a 116 wRC+ against LH pitching last season and a 6.9 UZR and people are applauding that out of what will be the every day Reds SS? Uggggg

brm7675
01-06-2011, 06:25 PM
Because his contact extension would have cost the Giants $10.5M. He just isn't worth the price. It isn't because the Giants didn't want him back. The Giants even offered him a buyout, but it wasn't enough for Renteria. So the difference between the WS Champ and the Reds is that someone offered more money for the dude. Or am I missing something?

Your missing alot, they could have resigned him after releasing him for less, teams do that, but they knew he was not an everyday player (Unlike Dusty and Walt) and not worth more then a million, and yet the Reds gave him 3 times that? How is that smart?

Jack Burton
01-06-2011, 07:07 PM
Nooooooooooooo!

This is a disgusting move, Walt you freakin idiot!

Guy is a washed up bum.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 07:08 PM
Guy is a washed up bum.

I would be happy if he was that good....;)

Jack Burton
01-06-2011, 07:10 PM
This move just sickens me. We had to deal w/ that rat Cabrera last season and now we have this bum.....

NeilHamburger
01-06-2011, 07:11 PM
If healthy I think he hits .280 with a .340 OBP. I really don't see all the fuss over this. And if he's not healthy that just means Paul starts all year.

People act like he's 40. He just turned 34 in August. He's like 3 or 4 years older then Dunn.

Plus, if he has one more good year in him (like his great 07 year) it immediatly makes this a very very good offense.

brm7675
01-06-2011, 07:19 PM
If healthy I think he hits .280 with a .340 OBP. I really don't see all the fuss over this. And if he's not healthy that just means Paul starts all year.

People act like he's 40. He just turned 34 in August. He's like 3 or 4 years older then Dunn.

Plus, if he has one more good year in him (like his great 07 year) it immediatly makes this a very very good offense.

The fuss is HE ISN'T ANY GOOD.... and he will be the everyday short stop no matter what his numbers are because that is how Dusty rolls...

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 07:24 PM
The fuss is HE ISN'T ANY GOOD.... and he will be the everyday short stop no matter what his numbers are because that is how Dusty rolls...

If healthy, Renteria is going to produce. It's that simple.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 07:27 PM
The problem is that a swinging door SS the last few years is ridiculous... This team wasted Millions on Alex Gonzalez instead of signing a guy like Renteria for an extra 4 Million a year...

This move would have been awesome to get him after his stint in Boston but this move is many years too late...

And yes I would have rather traded pieces for Jose Reyes to fill the SS and Lead off bill...

Oh, and if you people don't think Renteria is not going to be the Starter. You are sadley mistaken...

He will be given every opportunity to Start. There is no reason to even debate it.

NeilHamburger
01-06-2011, 07:34 PM
The fuss is HE ISN'T ANY GOOD.... and he will be the everyday short stop no matter what his numbers are because that is how Dusty rolls...

HE IS GOOD. See how annoying that is, quit acting like you're 10.

Jack Burton
01-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Oh, and if you people don't think Renteria is not going to be the Starter. You are sadley mistaken...

He will be given every opportunity to Start. There is no reason to even debate it.
That's why this sucks so bad. You can't give dusty pieces like this.

NeilHamburger
01-06-2011, 07:47 PM
Bill James projections for 2011:


This was for Edgar playing in SF, so the updated stats will feature a slight bump up for Edgar.

Bill James 2011 Projection:
.232/.308/.335, 4 HR and 26 RBI for Janish
.274/.333/.381, 7 HR and 49 RBI for Renteria

mattfeet
01-06-2011, 07:57 PM
I like it, personally. Bunch of you people are getting your panties wadded waaaaaaaaay too tight.

-Matt

brm7675
01-06-2011, 07:59 PM
Bill James projections for 2011:


This was for Edgar playing in SF, so the updated stats will feature a slight bump up for Edgar.

Bill James 2011 Projection:
.232/.308/.335, 4 HR and 26 RBI for Janish
.274/.333/.381, 7 HR and 49 RBI for Renteria

And his additional offense won't make up for the Reds having a black hole on the left side of the field...

malcontent
01-06-2011, 08:03 PM
Bill James projections for 2011:


This was for Edgar playing in SF, so the updated stats will feature a slight bump up for Edgar.

Bill James 2011 Projection:
.232/.308/.335, 4 HR and 26 RBI for Janish
.274/.333/.381, 7 HR and 49 RBI for Renteria

And James likes Janish, so I've read.

I like this signing.

Now just sign Lewis and we're good.

RedsLvr
01-06-2011, 08:07 PM
And yes I would have rather traded pieces for Jose Reyes to fill the SS and Lead off bill...

Reyes = Just as injury prone as Renteria + a virus in the clubhouse. Good choice.

BEETTLEBUG
01-06-2011, 08:18 PM
Ok he is not Janish they stuck it to him again I wanted Janish but I think ER will be good.

So stop crying people.

Trace's Daddy
01-06-2011, 08:19 PM
Nooooooooooooo!

This is a disgusting move, Walt you freakin idiot!

Guy is a washed up bum.

Yes, the 2010 World Series Most Valuable Player = washed up bum.
Some people need to stop spazzing. Is your life THAT tied up in a baseball team? Geez

DocRed
01-06-2011, 08:22 PM
Yes, the 2010 World Series Most Valuable Player = washed up bum.
Some people need to stop spazzing. Is your life THAT tied up in a baseball team? Geez

LOL exactly...what a bum

jwertz
01-06-2011, 08:25 PM
Only one thing is certain, Walt is the best in the business. I trust him to make the right decision. So if he feels this is a good value signing then I will have to agree. I guess we will see. I have noticed that most every post is to either extreme. He is either a bum, or the final piece. I say take a chill pill, we will see how he has performed come June/July.
Also, what is with all of the rude, and snotty behaviour lately. This website is almost unbearable to read. Are all of you twelve, it is near impossible to find a single thread that doesn't include some name calling, or someone talking down to someone else. It's old.

Hondo
01-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Only one thing is certain, Walt is the best in the business. I trust him to make the right decision. So if he feels this is a good value signing then I will have to agree. I guess we will see. I have noticed that most every post is to either extreme. He is either a bum, or the final piece. I say take a chill pill, we will see how he has performed come June/July.
Also, what is with all of the rude, and snotty behaviour lately. This website is almost unbearable to read. Are all of you twelve, it is near impossible to find a single thread that doesn't include some name calling, or someone talking down to someone else. It's old.

Show me where the Rainbow and Unicorn section is and I will gladley post there...

Sports is emotional and so is Debate... The reason most people here get so emotional is because the Reds to me are like an extension of my life...

You kind of live vicariously through the team so yeah it gets emotional...

Eric the Red
01-06-2011, 08:57 PM
I'll go on record saying that I like the move. The only way Janish does not get the majority (100 or so) of starts at shortstop for the Reds in 2011 is if his numbers are what Bill James projects are Renteria plays well.

Walt knows what he's doing as his track record proves.

MikeThierry
01-06-2011, 09:39 PM
This is a great move if Edgar doesn't become an every day player. He has always been clutch from his game winning hit in the WS against the Indians to this past post season. He is a winner on every level and an excellent clubhouse guy. He is a guy I wanted the Cards to go after as a utility player. Good depth move.

AintlifeGrande
01-06-2011, 09:40 PM
I guess Mike and I are only one here who approve of the signing.Veterans seem to carry their own here when healthy.

MikeThierry
01-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Aint, just seeing him play in St. Louis on our championship team, he is a club house guy and a guy that knows how to win. He has won a WS with 3 different teams. You just don't find those guys laying around. I think there are intangibles here that people just looking at his stats are missing. I know that saber heads think that there is no such thing as a clutch hitter or no intangibles in baseball. I'll take my chances with a guy who has proven to win rather than what any WAR stat will tell me. He is only 34 so there is some stuff left in the tank.

Again, if he doesn't play on an every day basis, this is a good signing.

Revering4Blue
01-06-2011, 09:50 PM
Pure speculation, but interesting.


Renteria shouldn't be a major league regular anymore, so he projects to be the backup to Paul Janish at shortstop and Brandon Phillips at second base.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2227

MikeThierry
01-06-2011, 09:56 PM
I made an error in my previous post. He has been to the WS with three different teams and won it with 2 of them.

Pony Boy
01-06-2011, 10:24 PM
Reasonably? That is the exact problem with the front office...

This is about trying to win a world series, not trying to reasonably find affordable window dressing for your house...


Your right, Walt should go to unreasonable lengths to get a SS of the future. How about we trade Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Chapman for Starlin Castro?

jwertz
01-06-2011, 11:24 PM
Show me where the Rainbow and Unicorn section is and I will gladley post there...

Sports is emotional and so is Debate... The reason most people here get so emotional is because the Reds to me are like an extension of my life...

You kind of live vicariously through the team so yeah it gets emotional...

I have no reason to live vicariously through anything or anyone. The fact that you consider any sports team an extension of your life is cause for alarm. I want no arguement, I just want to talk about baseball. And your comment about the "rainbow and unicorn section" would've been funny had you not followed it up with an indictment on your quality of life. I am just tired of all crude, immature behaviour. Don't take it personal, and don't make it personal.

LeDoux
01-07-2011, 01:01 AM
So... when is Renteria booblehead night?

BAKER12
01-07-2011, 01:12 AM
I like it, gives us flexibility and about the same SS situation as last year. Renteria is a solid ballplayer and is a winner. Great fit with Rolen on the left side. Not gonna win a gold glove, but the dude is clutch and we are gonna be chasing a pennant again 2011.

brm7675
01-07-2011, 10:43 AM
Only one thing is certain, Walt is the best in the business. I trust him to make the right decision. So if he feels this is a good value signing then I will have to agree. I guess we will see. I have noticed that most every post is to either extreme. He is either a bum, or the final piece. I say take a chill pill, we will see how he has performed come June/July.
Also, what is with all of the rude, and snotty behaviour lately. This website is almost unbearable to read. Are all of you twelve, it is near impossible to find a single thread that doesn't include some name calling, or someone talking down to someone else. It's old.

How is "Walt the best in the business"?

Old NDN
01-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Aint, just seeing him play in St. Louis on our championship team, he is a club house guy and a guy that knows how to win. He has won a WS with 3 different teams. You just don't find those guys laying around. I think there are intangibles here that people just looking at his stats are missing. I know that saber heads think that there is no such thing as a clutch hitter or no intangibles in baseball. I'll take my chances with a guy who has proven to win rather than what any WAR stat will tell me. He is only 34 so there is some stuff left in the tank.

Again, if he doesn't play on an every day basis, this is a good signing.

Why did the Cards let him go?

Hondo
01-07-2011, 12:36 PM
Your right, Walt should go to unreasonable lengths to get a SS of the future. How about we trade Votto, Bruce, Cueto and Chapman for Starlin Castro?

I think you're not making a point here.

If the Reds take all the money from the Hernadez, Cairo, and Renteria contracts, thats 7 Million... Alls I am saying is put together a package of minor Leaguers and bring in a Reyes from the Mets...

And oh by the way... I guess Greinke cost the Brewers Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Corey Hart huh? :rolleyes:

Hondo
01-07-2011, 12:37 PM
I have no reason to live vicariously through anything or anyone. The fact that you consider any sports team an extension of your life is cause for alarm. I want no arguement, I just want to talk about baseball. And your comment about the "rainbow and unicorn section" would've been funny had you not followed it up with an indictment on your quality of life. I am just tired of all crude, immature behaviour. Don't take it personal, and don't make it personal.

I guess I am just a Die Hard fan...

brm7675
01-07-2011, 01:01 PM
I think you're not making a point here.

If the Reds take all the money from the Hernadez, Cairo, and Renteria contracts, thats 7 Million... Alls I am saying is put together a package of minor Leaguers and bring in a Reyes from the Mets...

And oh by the way... I guess Greinke cost the Brewers Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Corey Hart huh? :rolleyes:

how do you know it would just take minor leaguers to get Reyes? Personally i think the Mets would want some combination of say Wood and another pitcher and maybe Yonder and still another B level player which is just to much to give up. I would much rather go with Janish this year and then next year see what Cozart brings to the table.

mroby85
01-07-2011, 01:19 PM
I guess I am just a Die Hard fan...

I think most legit fans are like you. It's more the fairweather fans that use phrases like "its just a game." If it's not important to you, there isn't really a point in following it.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 01:56 PM
From Rotoworld w/ Rotoworld comments:

Edgar Renteria told reporters Thursday that he will be the full-time shortstop in Cincinnati this season.

He's certainly being paid like one. According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, Renteria will make $2.1 million in guaranteed salary this season and can earn another $900,000 through performance-based incentives. Now the question becomes: what will the Reds do with the slick-fielding Paul Janish?

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 01:59 PM
I can only hope Renteria's age and blubber lead to so many injuries that he rarely sees the field.

This is the kind of signing you make in late August for a pennant chase, not one you make in January.

This has Baker written all over it. Walt's just not this stupid. Baker, as we all know, is this stupid, as he proves it with the REDS every single season.

This is why Dusty Baker is a horrible manager and never should have been retained.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Sorry, but there is no long-term fix at SS that can reasonably be acquired this offseason. Hopefully, the long-term fix is Billy Hamilton and he is years away. Until then Walt is smart to try to solidify the position as best he can.

I don't love Renteria. My initial thought when Renteria's name first came up a this offseason was hell no, but I think we will look back on this move by Walt as a good one.

-He is cheap. Yes, $3 million (if he hits incentives) is cheap.
-It is a 1-year deal.
-He gives us another vet infield option besides Cairo.
-He is a clutch hitter that can hit good pitching.
-We desperately need another SS.
-He had an excellent, AS-caliber season as recently as 2007.

I don't get the complaints about this move.

And Pigs will fly in Cincinnati (real ones).

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:02 PM
I like the signing...at worst he is a quality backup with experience, who has playoff experience. I also don't believe $3million is too much for a quality backup SS, and again that is with incentives.

Wrong.

At worst, he's a horrible starter, even worse than Orlando Cabrera.

Hondo
01-07-2011, 02:02 PM
I can only hope Renteria's age and blubber lead to so many injuries that he rarely sees the field.

This is the kind of signing you make in late August for a pennant chase, not one you make in January.

This has Baker written all over it. Walt's just not this stupid. Baker, as we all know, is this stupid, as he proves it with the REDS every single season.

This is why Dusty Baker is a horrible manager and never should have been retained.

Thats why I said the 2.1 Million at least to Renteria, the 3 Million to Hernandez, and the 1 Million to Cairo could have been used to have an actual upgrade... This team needs a Lead Off Hitter whether it be left field or ShortStop...

That is what the Team needed to allocate funds for...

jwertz
01-07-2011, 02:02 PM
I think most legit fans are like you. It's more the fairweather fans that use phrases like "its just a game." If it's not important to you, there isn't really a point in following it.

Because I don't want to read a bunch of bickering, and live and die with the team I am not a legitimate fan? You can debate and discuss wthout being so petulant. I can be a "die hard" fan without becoming so obsessed that I feel I live vicariously through the team or players. Either way it's not worth the arguement.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:03 PM
Listen. If you keep adding young player to the team and develop them, you're never going to win. Tell me how 2001-2009 worked out when we were getting young players and "developing" them. Renteria was a great signing who has had consistent hitting his whole career and has won two gold gloves. His defense has slipped since he has won them, but he can still get the job done.

No he can't still get the job done.

Why don't we get Ted Williams to bat 4th?

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:04 PM
Walt must be grinning now looking at his checklist.

Left-handed reliever...Dontrelle Willis......CHECK
Left-field platoon partner...Jeremy Hermida....CHECK
Shortstop......Edgar Renteria....CHECK

They aren't paying Renteria 3 million plus incentives to ride the pines.
Paul Janish go sit in the corner again.

Sweet.

It's very sad, isn't it?

Hondo
01-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Because I don't want to read a bunch of bickering, and live and die with the team I am not a legitimate fan? You can debate and discuss wthout being so petulant. I can be a "die hard" fan without becoming so obsessed that I feel I live vicariously through the team or players. Either way it's not worth the arguement.

This is a debate forum... Not a Tree Hugger oh the world is great we should all hold hands forum...

We are all debating...

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:10 PM
Every season you pray and you hope that Dusty Baker's twisted mind won't have enough influence to force the REDS to sign some has-been ex-Baker buddy to play a vital Defensive position or to bat in a vital position.

Yet, every year it happens.

That's another 5-6 wins we can throw right out the window that we aren't going to have because of Dusty Baker.

When will the REDS just get rid of this no-good Manager.

We're loaded with talent and Baker wants to hand a key position to one of his boys, one of his buddies.

Rick Sweet is 10 times the Manager Dusty Baker is.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:11 PM
Because I don't want to read a bunch of bickering, and live and die with the team I am not a legitimate fan? You can debate and discuss wthout being so petulant. I can be a "die hard" fan without becoming so obsessed that I feel I live vicariously through the team or players. Either way it's not worth the arguement.

If you're going to claim to be holier than thou, at least learn how to spell.

Redszone does the spell-check for you to make it easy.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 02:21 PM
If Renteria is so dang good, then why would the Giants, who know him better than anyone and would have the most loyalty towards him, only make their highest offer to him for $1 million and not include any performance incentives?

It's because he's old, blubbery, and he just isn't any good.

markymark69
01-07-2011, 02:40 PM
I like the signing. We're not bringing him in to start 150 games or anything. Expecting that and production from Janish was a stretch as well. Another player that has been in big games and brings experience to the club is a good thing. We could have done better, but we're better off now than we were with Janish being the only option.

I agree only in the sense if he is indeed a back-up, which according to the most recent comments made by Jocketty he will be. The fact that some people on this board are ready to coronate Janish as the next shortstop in Reds history - it's not a bad idea to have someone to push Janish, if Janish is good enough (as many on here think) he will get the bulk of the playing time.

I'm not thrilled about it, but we did not have a back-up at shortstop. If he does play, let's hope he plays well. Walt is gambling here, let's hope that it's not snake eyes.

Hondo
01-07-2011, 02:42 PM
I agree only in the sense if he is indeed a back-up, which according to the most recent comments made by Jocketty he will be. The fact that some people on this board are ready to coronate Janish as the next shortstop in Reds history - it's not a bad idea to have someone to push Janish, if Janish is good enough (as many on here think) he will get the bulk of the playing time.

I'm not thrilled about it, but we did not have a back-up at shortstop. If he does play, let's hope he plays well. Walt is gambling here, let's hope that it's not snake eyes.

Renteria is quoted as saying he will be the full time starter in Cincinnati.

Also, the Reds aren't going to pay 2.1 Million for a back up to Janish.

markymark69
01-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Renteria is quoted as saying he will be the full time starter in Cincinnati.

Also, the Reds aren't going to pay 2.1 Million for a back up to Janish.

The Reds haven't said that they have even signed him - check out the website and Mark Sheldon's blog. Just because Renteria says he's the starter doesn't make it so.

You may very well be right, Renteria may be the starter, offensively I think he can match Janish's out-put, defense is another story. I still trust Walt's track record.

Again, as I stated, I'm not thrilled about this signing if he is the starter, if he is back-up (which I still think will be the case) I'm okay with it.

Vottomatic
01-07-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm becoming less and less enthusiastic about next season as Walt and Bob continue to bore the crap out of me with signings that neither hurt nor IMPROVE the club.

Hondo
01-07-2011, 02:56 PM
The Reds haven't said that they have even signed him - check out the website and Mark Sheldon's blog. Just because Renteria says he's the starter doesn't make it so.

You may very well be right, Renteria may be the starter, offensively I think he can match Janish's out-put, defense is another story. I still trust Walt's track record.

Again, as I stated, I'm not thrilled about this signing if he is the starter, if he is back-up (which I still think will be the case) I'm okay with it.

Ok man, if you think the Reds front office payroll issues gave the green light for a 2.1 Million Bench Player... More Power to you! :all_cohol

:fineprint

brm7675
01-07-2011, 03:01 PM
If Walt doesn't have "it" to stand up to Dusty and tell him "No we are not gonig to bring in a washed up" SS for you to run out there everyday and hurt this teams chances of winning, then Walt needs to go. With this move I have lost all respect for Walt, it is really time for him to BE SHOWN THE DOOR.

Hondo
01-07-2011, 03:02 PM
If Walt doesn't have "it" to stand up to Dusty and tell him "No we are not gonig to bring in a washed up" SS for you to run out there everyday and hurt this teams chances of winning, then Walt needs to go. With this move I have lost all respect for Walt, it is really time for him to BE SHOWN THE DOOR.

I think this is all Walt dude... Rolen, Renteria... Cardinals 2000-2004 Left Side of the Infield...

markymark69
01-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Ok man, if you think the Reds front office payroll issues gave the green light for a 2.1 Million Bench Player... More Power to you! :all_cohol

:fineprint

Miguel Cairo made more money than Votto last year (this year will be a different story), or at least on par and what was he? A back-up - and a good one.

A few years back, Hatteberg made more money than Votto and what was he? A back-up. My guess is when Barry Larkin first came up and started playing - who was his back-up? - Dave Concepcion - I guarantee you Concepcion made more money.

It has happened before - besides Janish is not such a stud that this move will "cripple" the team if Renteria is the starter.

mroby85
01-07-2011, 03:21 PM
If Walt doesn't have "it" to stand up to Dusty and tell him "No we are not gonig to bring in a washed up" SS for you to run out there everyday and hurt this teams chances of winning, then Walt needs to go. With this move I have lost all respect for Walt, it is really time for him to BE SHOWN THE DOOR.

This has to be a joke... They just had their 1st playoff berth in 15 years, and you think they should show the GM the door? Scott Rolen was a big part of that run, and they wouldn't have made it without him. Walt is doing fine, considering the amount of money he is "allowed" to spend. Do you think Edgar Renteria over Paul Janish is going to hurt this teams chances of winning? seriously??

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:23 PM
If Walt doesn't have "it" to stand up to Dusty and tell him "No we are not gonig to bring in a washed up" SS for you to run out there everyday and hurt this teams chances of winning, then Walt needs to go. With this move I have lost all respect for Walt, it is really time for him to BE SHOWN THE DOOR.

I agree with that. Though I'd rather see Walt give Castellini an ultimatum that either "I'm in charge and not Baker, or I'm out of here, and you can find some other patsy to do Baker's bidding."

Hondo
01-07-2011, 03:24 PM
Miguel Cairo made more money than Votto last year (this year will be a different story), or at least on par and what was he? A back-up - and a good one.

A few years back, Hatteberg made more money than Votto and what was he? A back-up. My guess is when Barry Larkin first came up and started playing - who was his back-up? - Dave Concepcion - I guarantee you Concepcion made more money.

It has happened before - besides Janish is not such a stud that this move will "cripple" the team if Renteria is the starter.

Ok, you stay over there. I will be right here in literalville...

Given the Payrol Constraints... The Reds Ownership would not pay a bench player 2.1 Million to be a part time role, bench player...

You don't have to compare and contrast league minimum salaries for me...

Red in Atl
01-07-2011, 03:25 PM
If the above statement was true, then you would be right, but the above statement is wrong. We just signed last years washed up SS to a contract to be the opening day SS and leadoff hitter and THAT is the problem.

Sorry Dusty. I didn't mean to step on your toes or put words in your mouth. :rolleyes:

You know folks there's a thing called performance. If ER comes in and plays hard during ST and beats out Janish, then he will be the starting SS. If PJ comes in and beats out ER, then the opposite will be true. And none of your projections, name calling, history rewriting, etc. will mean anything.

ER is a VERY successful veteran player. He signed a very reasonable contract for a player of his level. Heck he's even younger than Cabrera. He can give guidance, advise and lead by example. He's won two WS with his last at bat.

You guys act like we just signed Juan Castro to a $20 million dollar contract. Give it a rest already.

TeamSelig
01-07-2011, 03:26 PM
The only thing that I don't like about this deal is that Renteria plays well vs LHP.... well, so does Janish. So we have two SS that can't hit RHP very well.

Renteria

794 OPS (vs LHP)
671 OPS (vs RHP)

Janish

838 OPS (vs LHP)
667 OPS (vs RHP

If we are going to have a high 600s OPS player in the lineup vs RHP... I'd rather it be Janish (along with his glove)

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Ok, you stay over there. I will be right here in literalville...

Given the Payrol Constraints... The Reds Ownership would not pay a bench player 2.1 Million to be a part time role, bench player...

You don't have to compare and contrast league minimum salaries for me...

....nevermind the fact that Renteria stated out loud to everyone that he was told that he's the new shortstop. You know it was Baker who told him that, too.

In espanol: "Hey big buddy,....I got you a starting job. And, I got them to double what the Giants were offering you, and triple the salary with some easy to reach incentives. We'll party later at my house. Hasta luega!"

markymark69
01-07-2011, 03:27 PM
Ok, you stay over there. I will be right here in literalville...

Given the Payrol Constraints... The Reds Ownership would not pay a bench player 2.1 Million to be a part time role, bench player...

You don't have to compare and contrast league minimum salaries for me...

I understand your point perfectly. You made the blanket statement I didn't. Chances are you're probably right. But if you think that Renteria is going to play 150 games, you're the one that is mistaken.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:27 PM
The only thing that I don't like about this deal is that Renteria plays well vs LHP.... well, so does Janish. So we have two SS that can't hit RHP very well.

Renteria

794 OPS (vs LHP)
671 OPS (vs RHP)

Janish

838 OPS (vs LHP)
667 OPS (vs RHP

If we are going to have a high 600s OPS player in the lineup vs RHP... I'd rather it be Janish (along with his glove)

Janish could play better defense if he put the glove on the other hand.

Hondo
01-07-2011, 03:27 PM
....nevermind the fact that Renteria stated out loud to everyone that he was told that he's the new shortstop. You know it was Baker who told him that, too.

In espanol: "Hey big buddy,....I got you a starting job. And, I got them to double what the Giants were offering you, and triple the salary with some easy to reach incentives. We'll party later at my house. Hasta luega!"

I replied to you in the other thread. I think this is all Walt and not Dusty... Walt has history with Renteria in St. Louis from 1999-2004

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:29 PM
If ER comes in and plays hard during ST and beats out Janish, then he will be the starting SS. If PJ comes in and beats out ER, then the opposite will be true.

That's not how it works in Dusty's world. The Veteran-who-can't-hit-or-field always gets the job over the younger-player-who-can-hit-and-field-better.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:31 PM
Yes, the 2010 World Series Most Valuable Player = washed up bum.
Some people need to stop spazzing. Is your life THAT tied up in a baseball team? Geez

There's a Bucky Dent in every World Series.

Having a "couple" of good at-bats in the World Series does not equate to next season's performance.

And, obviously you have nothing better to do than to post on here today about something that's really not huge news, as you say. Glad you've got your priorities straight.

defender
01-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Thats why I said the 2.1 Million at least to Renteria, the 3 Million to Hernandez, and the 1 Million to Cairo could have been used to have an actual upgrade... This team needs a Lead Off Hitter whether it be left field or ShortStop...

That is what the Team needed to allocate funds for...

If there was a 100% sure thing upgrade for 7 mil, I am sure Walt would do it. Everybody from Reyes to Damon to Greinke has question marks. At this point, it looks like the plan is to hope for improvement from all the young players and sign cheap FAs to make sure there are no gaping holes.

Last year, a lot fell into place, but it turned out the Reds did not have an elite #1 starter. Walt tried to get Cliff Lee. I think Walt will be more willing to make a bold move mid season, if there is a more defined need and a more defined solution.

Kingspoint
01-07-2011, 03:32 PM
I replied to you in the other thread. I think this is all Walt and not Dusty... Walt has history with Renteria in St. Louis from 1999-2004

Rolen does not equal Renteria.

This is about Dusty, not Walt.

You may be right. It just leans more to Dusty though to me.

Red in Atl
01-07-2011, 04:10 PM
That's not how it works in Dusty's world. The Veteran-who-can't-hit-or-field always gets the job over the younger-player-who-can-hit-and-field-better.

That's not what I said. Read my quote again. The player who beats out the competition wins the spot.

I would trust Dusty and Walt's opinion over the majority of people on here everyday and twice on Sunday.

bounty37h
01-07-2011, 04:12 PM
There's a Bucky Dent in every World Series.

Having a "couple" of good at-bats in the World Series does not equate to next season's performance.

And, obviously you have nothing better to do than to post on here today about something that's really not huge news, as you say. Glad you've got your priorities straight.

Not to nitpick (sp?), but dont you have like 300 posts in this thread alone, so you dont have much going on either? And have a the most animated opinion for something you are saying isnt even big news? Maybe you guys should get together for lunch and discuss it all in person with your extra time ;)

Hondo
01-07-2011, 06:54 PM
QUOTE

"I feel happy for the opportunity to keep playing shortstop full time. That was the main reason to accept the offer from the Reds," Renteria told ESPNdeportes.com.

QUOTE

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5998970

Uh, yeah playing full time ShortStop is pretty plain and simple...

brm7675
01-07-2011, 06:59 PM
That's not what I said. Read my quote again. The player who beats out the competition wins the spot.

I would trust Dusty and Walt's opinion over the majority of people on here everyday and twice on Sunday.

Walt maybe but Dusty? Really? this is the manager that played Orlando over Janish last season, gave more starts to Hernandez over Hannigan, played Phillips when he was hurt and coulnd't produce, kept pitchers in to long costing us games and the No. 1 seed in teh playoffs and so on....you trust that?

Hondo
01-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Walt maybe but Dusty? Really? this is the manager that played Orlando over Janish last season, gave more starts to Hernandez over Hannigan, played Phillips when he was hurt and coulnd't produce, kept pitchers in to long costing us games and the No. 1 seed in teh playoffs and so on....you trust that?

He also filled out the Lineup Card every game...

MikeThierry
01-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Why did the Cards let him go?

He left for Boston to get more money.



I think everyone should just relax a bit here. You guys have enough young talent to be competitive in this division. Walt knows what he is doing.

Quatitos
01-07-2011, 08:12 PM
He left for Boston to get more money.



I think everyone should just relax a bit here. You guys have enough young talent to be competitive in this division. Walt knows what he is doing.

I have to admit I find it funny to read through this and one of the people more optimistic about the teams abilities is the cardinals fan :)

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Mutaman
01-07-2011, 08:37 PM
Walt maybe but Dusty? Really? this is the manager that played Orlando over Janish last season, gave more starts to Hernandez over Hannigan, played Phillips when he was hurt and coulnd't produce, kept pitchers in to long costing us games and the No. 1 seed in teh playoffs and so on....you trust that?

When did he keep pitchers in too long costing us games?

MikeThierry
01-07-2011, 08:41 PM
I have to admit I find it funny to read through this and one of the people more optimistic about the teams abilities is the cardinals fan

LOL you are right, I am optimistic about the future of the Reds. I just look at their team and they are loaded with pitching depth (which is at least 75% of the struggle most teams find themselves in on any given off season in my opinion) and they have young players at other positions. I think they will be fine if they have a couple of old guys that know how to win in their lineup. Really, could Rentauria be any worse than Orlando Cabrera? Besides, I like Janish and he could work out well if the Rentauria experiment is a failure.

I got bashed in here and on other boards because I wasn't all up in arms and didn't criticize management about the Lance Berkman deal for the Cardinals. Berkman could be a disaster in right field. However I can see the upside of having him in the lineup with Pujols and Holliday. If it doesn't work out, John Jay and Allen Craig are promising talents that could fill out nicely. That platoon was the original plan to begin with before Berkman.

The point is, if Rentauria fails, I don't think its going to put you guys in the poor house at that position. You have contingency plans if it fails. I just think theoretically it could work out.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-07-2011, 08:46 PM
and he made the statement today that he expects to be an everyday shortstop for the Reds. mmmm, did someone tell him that he is a backup? if not this may be a problem in the clubhouse. Just saying, time will tell all

Jack Burton
01-08-2011, 11:05 AM
And we thought Cabrera was bad last season.....

I'm guessing this will be worse.

Red in Atl
01-08-2011, 01:17 PM
Walt maybe but Dusty? Really? this is the manager that played Orlando over Janish last season, gave more starts to Hernandez over Hannigan, played Phillips when he was hurt and coulnd't produce, kept pitchers in to long costing us games and the No. 1 seed in teh playoffs and so on....you trust that?

Did I stutter? ;)

PeteRoseBelongs
01-08-2011, 02:05 PM
I know that Baker made the statement after ER's but I say where there is smoke there is fire. I don't think a vet like ER would say he expects to be a regular if he hasn't been told that he would receive the bulk of the playing time. Maybe I am wrong about the guy but ER through all of his injuries I don't recall him being a cancer or ever making a statement that could be taken the wrong way. I think he really thinks that he is going to be a regular.

Time tells all but I have a feeling that ER will be at short far more than Paul

Oxblood
01-09-2011, 01:21 PM
You can take it to the bank that Duhsty was behind this. You can take it to the bank that Renteria gets more playing time than Janish.

Guy had a few lucky hits in the ws, stupid signing.

OGB
01-10-2011, 06:25 PM
Well if he makes 3 Million...

The Reds should have taken that 3 Million, the 3 Million given to Hernadez, and the 1 Million given to Cairo and put it towards a true difference maker...

These moves are more of the, making a move to make a move, as some of you have been telling me the Reds Shouldn't do... When I talk about the Reds paying BJ Upton 4-5 Million, or the Reds making the Trade for Greinke instead for 13.5 Million...

I mean, who would you rather have

Cairo, Renteria, and Hernadez for 7 Million

or

Greinke for 13.5 Million


Paying only 6.5 Million more???? Plus I understand another 1.2 Million to replace the 3 Mentioned players...

I've kind of agreed with your stance on adding a proven impact player this offseason, but I have to completely disagree here. A baseball season is really long and injuries can quickly derail any team's journey to the postseason. The Reds could use some depth and they're getting it in the form of proven veterans--in Renteria's case, one of the best playoff performers of the past 2 decades.
I think the Reds are going to be better because of the improvement of the young players already on the roster, but if guys go down for an extended period of time, I don't want to have to rely on players like Valaika, Francisco, Mesoraco, etc. to contribute. Simply consider where this team would have been last year without the contribution they got from Cairo when Rolen or Votto couldn't play.
Greinke's in Milwaukee, get over it. If the Reds can add cheap bits and pieces that can help, I'm all for it.

OGB
01-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Lets see we sign a player with a 116 wRC+ against LH pitching last season and a 6.9 UZR and people are applauding that out of what will be the every day Reds SS? Uggggg

You keep saying this.

I'll bet you right now that (injuries aside) Janish is the Opening Day shortstop. Loser doesn't post on this site for a month.


Edited to add: I also want to go on the record as saying that Janish won't just be the Opening Day starter, but also that he'll get the majority of the starts, 100+.

brm7675
01-10-2011, 06:47 PM
You keep saying this.

I'll bet you right now that (injuries aside) Janish is the Opening Day shortstop. Loser doesn't post on this site for a month.


Edited to add: I also want to go on the record as saying that Janish won't just be the Opening Day starter, but also that he'll get the majority of the starts, 100+.

I really hope your right, but history begs to differ with you on this call.

Quatitos
01-10-2011, 08:42 PM
Per Mark Sheldon: (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110110&content_id=16415940&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin&partnerId=rss_cin)


Since Renteria agreed to terms on a deal with the Reds on Thursday, there had been a lot of speculation about the status of Janish at shortstop. When the club gets to camp, he will still be the regular shortstop.

"I called Janish on Saturday to make sure he knew that," Jocketty said.

Oxblood
01-10-2011, 08:58 PM
Meet your new Cincinnati Reds starting SS

Quatitos
01-10-2011, 09:04 PM
Meet your new Cincinnati Reds backup middle infielderFixed that for you :rolleyes:

sean
01-11-2011, 01:10 PM
Good lord, this thread.

With this signing, we're clearly going to win only 30 games, get swept by the Pirates and lose Chapman, Wood, and Leake to Tommy John. More than likely the team will get moved to Montreal and Cincinnati will become home only to a soon-to-be defunct Outdoor Basketball Team starring Melvin Levett.

This signing is not one to make or break the season. This signing does not mean we should be showing Walt the door, as some previously said. Is ER the future? Of course not. Does he bring some intangibles to the clubhouse which could help our predominantly young roster? Of course he does.

I've never seen so many hyperbolic statements regarding such a small piece of this puzzle in my life. You say that this is what being a die-hard fan is about but you're not even using logic. It's just "BUT HE'S GOING TO STATRAND IT WILL BE A BLACKHOLEEEE!! GAAHH FIRE DUSTY." There is more to being a die-hard fan than just being pessimistic and negative towards your team.

It will work or it won't. We'll win the World Series or we won't. But I'm confident in saying that whether we do or not, the Edgar Renteria signing is not going to be the x-factor that decides it.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 01:13 PM
Good lord, this thread.

With this signing, we're clearly going to win only 30 games, get swept by the Pirates and lose Chapman, Wood, and Leake to Tommy John. More than likely the team will get moved to Montreal and Cincinnati will become home only to a soon-to-be defunct Outdoor Basketball Team starring Melvin Levett.

This signing is not one to make or break the season. This signing does not mean we should be showing Walt the door, as some previously said. Is ER the future? Of course not. Does he bring some intangibles to the clubhouse which could help our predominantly young roster? Of course he does.

I've never seen so many hyperbolic statements regarding such a small piece of this puzzle in my life. You say that this is what being a die-hard fan is about but you're not even using logic. It's just "BUT HE'S GOING TO STATRAND IT WILL BE A BLACKHOLEEEE!! GAAHH FIRE DUSTY." There is more to being a die-hard fan than just being pessimistic and negative towards your team.

It will work or it won't. We'll win the World Series or we won't. But I'm confident in saying that whether we do or not, the Edgar Renteria signing is not going to be the x-factor that decides it.

I think you would be better at reading Fay, McCoy, and Sheldon rather than read a Posting Board where people Debate. Just my opinion.

brm7675
01-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Good lord, this thread.

This signing is not one to make or break the season. This signing does not mean we should be showing Walt the door, as some previously said. Is ER the future? Of course not. Does he bring some intangibles to the clubhouse which could help our predominantly young roster? Of course he does.

.

I would disagree. This signing shows a lack of understanding of your manager and his traits to play agging vets over quality younger players. This signing places a black hole on the left side of our infield and increases the chances of losses. He brings zero to this team at this point. This was, is and will be a bad signing and the only hope we have is that he is physically unable to play this season...

sean
01-11-2011, 03:40 PM
I think you would be better at reading Fay, McCoy, and Sheldon rather than read a Posting Board where people Debate. Just my opinion.

But you aren't debating. You're simply saying the same things over and over and over.

When people ask you questions or use logic in an attempt at a debate you go back to the same rhetoric you've been saying all along.

People reference similar numbers between ER and PJ, you ignore it. You completely ignore any possibility that ER may play well. You're being pessimistic, hyperbolic, and close minded. That isn't a debate. That's you trying to force your point of view while ignoring the ideas of anybody else.

sean
01-11-2011, 03:44 PM
I would disagree. This signing shows a lack of understanding of your manager and his traits to play agging vets over quality younger players. This signing places a black hole on the left side of our infield and increases the chances of losses. He brings zero to this team at this point. This was, is and will be a bad signing and the only hope we have is that he is physically unable to play this season...

Alright man. It's all doom and gloom. You're right.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 04:28 PM
But you aren't debating. You're simply saying the same things over and over and over.

When people ask you questions or use logic in an attempt at a debate you go back to the same rhetoric you've been saying all along.

People reference similar numbers between ER and PJ, you ignore it. You completely ignore any possibility that ER may play well. You're being pessimistic, hyperbolic, and close minded. That isn't a debate. That's you trying to force your point of view while ignoring the ideas of anybody else.

Did you go here for your response?

http://thesaurus.com/

There are no similar numbers between Janish and Renteria...

Renteria if healthy will be the starting SS based on his track record. Janish besides last seasons 200 exact AB's has never performed well at the major league level and at 28 he is what he is... A defensive bench player... If you had read many of my previous posts you would have seen similar statements.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Alright man. It's all doom and gloom. You're right.

And another thing. Use common sense.

This team always talks about Payroll Payroll Payroll Budget Budget Budget

So why would they sign a Back up SS to a 2.1 Million Dollar Deal...

That's why it's so difficult to get behind this Front Office and Ownership...

That is why ER will be given every and I mean every chance to be the Starter.

schmidty622
01-11-2011, 04:37 PM
I would disagree. This signing shows a lack of understanding of your manager and his traits to play agging vets over quality younger players. This signing places a black hole on the left side of our infield and increases the chances of losses. He brings zero to this team at this point. This was, is and will be a bad signing and the only hope we have is that he is physically unable to play this season...

Paul Janish is not a quality player.

If used correctly (primarily against Lefties, who he has always destroyed) Renteria will be valuable to the Reds.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 05:19 PM
Paul Janish is not a quality player.

If used correctly (primarily against Lefties, who he has always destroyed) Renteria will be valuable to the Reds.

How do you make that clear to these people?

He hit .260 over 200 AB's over 2 sub par part time years in 08 & 09 and people think his .260 over 200 AB's is going to be the norm...

There is absoultely No History on Janish Side, None!

PeteRoseBelongs
01-11-2011, 05:27 PM
it seems to me that most of you think that if you don't hit 280 to 300 that you suck as a hitter. The average batting average of major league shortstops last season is .260. But thats right he is not capable of being a major league shortstop.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 05:30 PM
it seems to me that most of you think that if you don't hit 280 to 300 that you suck as a hitter. The average batting average of major league shortstops last season is .260. But thats right he is not capable of being a major league shortstop.

You're not getting the jist of the point sir.

Janish is 28. He isn't going to be developing into anything more than he already is... 300 isn't even a stat for AB's that would change this players career course.

I am talking about logging 500-550 AB's for consecutive Seasons to even get a glimpse of what a player can do...

Janish is a great glove and piece off the bench, he just isn't a starter.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-11-2011, 07:09 PM
don't patronize me. You have no idea if that guy is a every day player. You don't know because he has never been given the chance to be one. He was told he would have a shot this year then our leadership screwed him over with the Renteria signing.

Hondo
01-11-2011, 09:10 PM
don't patronize me. You have no idea if that guy is a every day player. You don't know because he has never been given the chance to be one. He was told he would have a shot this year then our leadership screwed him over with the Renteria signing.

I am not "Treating you with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority."

I am telling you that Janish is not a starter, and the reason OC was signed last year and the reason ER was signed this year tells you everything anyone would ever need to know about this organization's assessment of one Paul Janish, which his name is prenounced "Yawn-ish" and ya know, what...

That's funny because seeing him on the Lineup card for the opposing Manger creates just that, a Yawn!

Janish isn't capable of carrying the load of an everyday player no matter what position he plays... He carries a good glove and thats about it... His Career stats and year after year of production back up my statements about him...

If you saw him on another team, and we have OC or Cabrera as a Starter last year, this year, or next: and you were comparing the Reds position by position, you would go with whatever the Reds have versus Paul Janish...

I may have a Love Affair with Greinke, but at least he has a History of 30+ Starts and 200 + Innings and a Cy Young and ERA title in his tool belt...

Janish has 200 AB's exactley as a 27 year old bench player... He doesn't have a track record and some how, you people get on the Paul Janish Band wagon and have some sort of Love Love relationship wanting him to be something he's not and never going to be...

I like Janish, just on the Bench...

Quatitos
01-11-2011, 10:01 PM
don't patronize me. You have no idea if that guy is a every day player. You don't know because he has never been given the chance to be one. He was told he would have a shot this year then our leadership screwed him over with the Renteria signing.

Just an fyi, Walt has said that Janish is still the starter going into spring training, so he has not been screwed over. If anything renteria will probablt push him a bit harder than if we had gone with bringing cozart or someone similar in as the backup. Janish still has the confidence of Dusty and Walt behind him, but he will also have renteria pushing him for playing time if he can't put up starter numbers. Hopefully the confidence combined with competition can bring the best out of him.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Hondo
01-11-2011, 10:05 PM
Just an fyi, Walt has said that Janish is still the starter going into spring training, so he has not been screwed over. If anything renteria will probablt push him a bit harder than if we had gone with bringing cozart or someone similar in as the backup. Janish still has the confidence of Dusty and Walt behind him, but he will also have renteria pushing him for playing time if he can't put up starter numbers. Hopefully the confidence combined with competition can bring the best out of him.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Wish I had a DROID2 to use Tapatalk

Stray
01-11-2011, 10:23 PM
I read that they're going to try to work in Renteria some time at 3rd. If he's able to field that position well he could be a very nice addition to the team. Janish can play a lot of games, but Rolen will need a lot of off days this year. Having Renteria able to backup that side of the infield would go a long way for us.

Oxblood
01-11-2011, 10:55 PM
Renteria???

What, Neifi Perez wasn't available?

Quatitos
01-11-2011, 11:31 PM
How do you make that clear to these people?

He hit .260 over 200 AB's over 2 sub par part time years in 08 & 09 and people think his .260 over 200 AB's is going to be the norm...

There is absoultely No History on Janish Side, None!

There isn't much history against him either. You can't throw away 228 PA that don't favor your conclusion for the 381 PA that do support your conclusion. Your honestly saying that the most recent 38% of his career doesn't matter, its the first 62% that is really telling.

Well if you want to look at early career numbers, he had a career line of .261/.351/.382 in the minors.

At the AAA he has shown the ability to improve as he gets used to the pitching level. In his first 227 PA in 07 at AAA he put up a .221/.278/.317 line and the next season in 365 PA he put up a .252/.324/.387 line. He only spent one season at AA so its hard to see how he performed as he got used to pitching at that level. In A ball, he went from a .245/.346/.385 line in 254 PA in 05 to a .398/.435/.612 in 108 PA at A in 06 and a .278/.355/.421 line in 393 PA at A+ in 393 PA. Now none of these numbers are overly impressive, but they show an ability to improve once he gets used to that level of pitching.

Since he has now been exposed to about a full season of PA over the past 3 seasons, and has improved each season, this also lends credibility to his ability to improve with the more exposure he gets. I don't know what you expect, but its is entirely possible that Janish can put up similar numbers to last season.

But I guess if you want to just ignore whatever history doesn't fit your opinion, then you can draw whatever conclusion you want.

I have stated my opinion of what performance I could see Janish having here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2310701&postcount=25). I wonder what you actually expect him to put up if given a starter's amount of PA (pretend that Walt and Dusty will keep their word that Janish is still the starter).

You state he doesn't have a track record, then go on to say that he will never be a starter in the majors. I wonder how you can back up that statement while saying he has no track record. Janish has had 2 extended attempts at being a starter, one was a failure while the other was a success. The most recent attempt was the success even, showing that he has been able to adjust to the majors. I guess you could say he has never put in a whole season at SS in the majors, but how can you damn him as never being able to do it if he is not given the chance? I could understand being doubtful about him being a starter, but saying he can't be before given the chance is not very open minded.

Quatitos
01-11-2011, 11:32 PM
Wish I had a DROID2 to use Tapatalk

It is very nice for getting some quick comments in :p:

PeteRoseBelongs
01-12-2011, 10:17 AM
I read that they're going to try to work in Renteria some time at 3rd. If he's able to field that position well he could be a very nice addition to the team. Janish can play a lot of games, but Rolen will need a lot of off days this year. Having Renteria able to backup that side of the infield would go a long way for us.

and if they give him time at third then that takes away critical time from Juan Francisco. He needs to get every opportunity at third. How in the world is a person supposed to get experience if he can't get an opportunity? It just doesn't make sence to me.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-12-2011, 10:23 AM
There isn't much history against him either. You can't throw away 228 PA that don't favor your conclusion for the 381 PA that do support your conclusion. Your honestly saying that the most recent 38% of his career doesn't matter, its the first 62% that is really telling.

Well if you want to look at early career numbers, he had a career line of .261/.351/.382 in the minors.

At the AAA he has shown the ability to improve as he gets used to the pitching level. In his first 227 PA in 07 at AAA he put up a .221/.278/.317 line and the next season in 365 PA he put up a .252/.324/.387 line. He only spent one season at AA so its hard to see how he performed as he got used to pitching at that level. In A ball, he went from a .245/.346/.385 line in 254 PA in 05 to a .398/.435/.612 in 108 PA at A in 06 and a .278/.355/.421 line in 393 PA at A+ in 393 PA. Now none of these numbers are overly impressive, but they show an ability to improve once he gets used to that level of pitching.

Since he has now been exposed to about a full season of PA over the past 3 seasons, and has improved each season, this also lends credibility to his ability to improve with the more exposure he gets. I don't know what you expect, but its is entirely possible that Janish can put up similar numbers to last season.

But I guess if you want to just ignore whatever history doesn't fit your opinion, then you can draw whatever conclusion you want.

I have stated my opinion of what performance I could see Janish having here (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2310701&postcount=25). I wonder what you actually expect him to put up if given a starter's amount of PA (pretend that Walt and Dusty will keep their word that Janish is still the starter).

You state he doesn't have a track record, then go on to say that he will never be a starter in the majors. I wonder how you can back up that statement while saying he has no track record. Janish has had 2 extended attempts at being a starter, one was a failure while the other was a success. The most recent attempt was the success even, showing that he has been able to adjust to the majors. I guess you could say he has never put in a whole season at SS in the majors, but how can you damn him as never being able to do it if he is not given the chance? I could understand being doubtful about him being a starter, but saying he can't be before given the chance is not very open minded.

thank god someone is actually showing something other than to say he can't do. I am not saying that I love Janish. I am just saying that he deserves a chance to play regular. How can say he can't do something when he hasn't truly been given a chance to play. The steroid era is over. We grew accustomed to SS hitting 40 homers so that is what we measure it against. If he gets a solid chance and he fails he fails. No harm. If he gets a chance and he holds up his end are you going to say your sorry and that you were wrong? I believe that the only way we are going to know is if he is given a chance one way or the other. You can not base your opionion on less than 300 at bats in a career. That is just ignorant.

Stray
01-12-2011, 11:56 AM
and if they give him time at third then that takes away critical time from Juan Francisco. He needs to get every opportunity at third. How in the world is a person supposed to get experience if he can't get an opportunity? It just doesn't make sence to me.

I'm not sure where thinking like this comes from but I've never understood it. What in the heck has Juan Fransisco done in his career that entitles him to getting some time at 3rd? Is anyone even sure that he is our long term plan at this point?

He has a decent bat and an average glove. I like him getting PH at bats, but in a season where we're built to win NOW, J. Fransisco doesn't deserve any time behind Rolen. If he earns it then that is a different story. Saying he deserves it at this point and having a proven player 'take' his time away from him makes zero sense.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-12-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm not sure where thinking like this comes from but I've never understood it. What in the heck has Juan Fransisco done in his career that entitles him to getting some time at 3rd? Is anyone even sure that he is our long term plan at this point? How is he supposed to earn it if he isn't given a chance.

He has a decent bat and an average glove. I like him getting PH at bats, but in a season where we're built to win NOW, J. Fransisco doesn't deserve any time behind Rolen. If he earns it then that is a different story. Saying he deserves it at this point and having a proven player 'take' his time away from him makes zero sense.

seriously, really??? he has nothing left to prove in AAA. If the Reds have zero intent to give him a shot then trade him. Damnit, you guys all of you sound like a broken record. Your so hell bent on players like Renteria and Podsednik and now Lewis. You know what if any of those players meant a crap to there former teams then they would have been kept by there former teams.

If we as an organization are going to continue to get even better then players like Francisco have to be given a chance. If rolen plays 79 to 100 games this year then you give a player like Francisco a chance to play behind him and get some damn experience. Jesus H christ you people can't see past your own noses.

We all want the same thing here. We want a winner on the field. As a Reds fan I have been hearing about the youth movement for 10 years. I want to see more of these younger guys get a shot. If they don't fit the long term plan then you get them experience and increase some kind of value for them. I am sick of hearing about Grienke and some of these others. We have talent in our system lets see what they can do.

Stray
01-12-2011, 02:32 PM
seriously, really??? he has nothing left to prove in AAA. If the Reds have zero intent to give him a shot then trade him. Damnit, you guys all of you sound like a broken record. Your so hell bent on players like Renteria and Podsednik and now Lewis. You know what if any of those players meant a crap to there former teams then they would have been kept by there former teams.

If we as an organization are going to continue to get even better then players like Francisco have to be given a chance. If rolen plays 79 to 100 games this year then you give a player like Francisco a chance to play behind him and get some damn experience. Jesus H christ you people can't see past your own noses.

We all want the same thing here. We want a winner on the field. As a Reds fan I have been hearing about the youth movement for 10 years. I want to see more of these younger guys get a shot. If they don't fit the long term plan then you get them experience and increase some kind of value for them. I am sick of hearing about Grienke and some of these others. We have talent in our system lets see what they can do.

I never said I wanted Podsednik. I would have hated if we signed him. You're missing my point though.

Fransisco has proven himself at AAA yes, but that does not translate to "He has earned a spot on the team and 50 starts at 3rd". Depth is good, experience is good, talent is good. Why should we trade Fransisco just to trade him? Do we owe it to him for him to start? Can you explain that thinking please?

He's earned a chance to win the backup job, that is all he's earned in my book. Adding Renteria just added more depth to that side of the infield and if JF cannot produce better than Renteria he should NOT get backup starts over him. It's that simple. We don't owe it to him, he gets paid like any other player. I'm a fan of winning your spot on the team, especially when it comes to bench and role guys, they should always have to earn them in ST. That is how I'm sure JF's role will be decided.

PeteRoseBelongs
01-12-2011, 02:54 PM
I never said I wanted Podsednik. I would have hated if we signed him. You're missing my point though.

Fransisco has proven himself at AAA yes, but that does not translate to "He has earned a spot on the team and 50 starts at 3rd". Depth is good, experience is good, talent is good. Why should we trade Fransisco just to trade him? Do we owe it to him for him to start? Can you explain that thinking please?

He's earned a chance to win the backup job, that is all he's earned in my book. Adding Renteria just added more depth to that side of the infield and if JF cannot produce better than Renteria he should NOT get backup starts over him. It's that simple. We don't owe it to him, he gets paid like any other player. I'm a fan of winning your spot on the team, especially when it comes to bench and role guys, they should always have to earn them in ST. That is how I'm sure JF's role will be decided.

what I have said is that he should be the back up and play 2 or 3 days a week. Having Rolen there only helps him. I have said religiously that if you do that for him then you help prolong Scott and you give Juan much needed experience and the ability to ask questions of one of the great fielding third baseman in the game. I see nothing wrong with that. Just because I say he deserves a chance doesn't mean nor have I said that he should start. Just give him a chance and help prolong Scott at the same time.

Stray
01-12-2011, 03:22 PM
what I have said is that he should be the back up and play 2 or 3 days a week. Having Rolen there only helps him. I have said religiously that if you do that for him then you help prolong Scott and you give Juan much needed experience and the ability to ask questions of one of the great fielding third baseman in the game. I see nothing wrong with that. Just because I say he deserves a chance doesn't mean nor have I said that he should start. Just give him a chance and help prolong Scott at the same time.

Then we agree somewhat. I also think Scott needs to get a LOT of games off this season. We saw his decline at the end of last season and it wasn't pretty. For us to get where we want he needs to be somewhat fresh at the end of the year.

The way in which he gets those days off I don't care. If Renteria proves to be an able backup at 3rd, and is a better option than JF than Renteria should get those starts, or vice versa. That's not to see JF won't get his playing time, because I'm confident he will. Renteria and Rolen are both old guys who could very well spend some time on the DL for whatever reason.

It works out well either way. Fransisco is a lefty and Renteria is a right handed bat. It gives Dusty some extra options which is good, and the backup at 3rd will be getting a lot more playing time than any other infield backup position this season.

Hondo
01-12-2011, 04:15 PM
thank god someone is actually showing something other than to say he can't do. I am not saying that I love Janish. I am just saying that he deserves a chance to play regular. How can say he can't do something when he hasn't truly been given a chance to play. The steroid era is over. We grew accustomed to SS hitting 40 homers so that is what we measure it against. If he gets a solid chance and he fails he fails. No harm. If he gets a chance and he holds up his end are you going to say your sorry and that you were wrong? I believe that the only way we are going to know is if he is given a chance one way or the other. You can not base your opionion on less than 300 at bats in a career. That is just ignorant.

It isn't Ignorant...

He left out the fact that those years 2007-2008 Janish was 24 & 25 years old where even if some of the players are older 25+ they are hitting at a AAAA level and Janish's production isn't even where players 21-22-23 years of age are...

That tells you more than anything about the Player...

brm7675
01-12-2011, 05:18 PM
It isn't Ignorant...

He left out the fact that those years 2007-2008 Janish was 24 & 25 years old where even if some of the players are older 25+ they are hitting at a AAAA level and Janish's production isn't even where players 21-22-23 years of age are...

That tells you more than anything about the Player...

To me with Janish it is all about the glove. What he brings to the field is way more important then his lack of hitting. With ole man Rolen at 3rd we MUST have a SS with great range, a great glove and a superior arm, all of which Janish has. So what if he hits .220 and only hits 5-10 HR and drives in fewer then 50, the runs he will save at SS will more then make up for those hitting nmbers...

PeteRoseBelongs
01-12-2011, 05:45 PM
To me with Janish it is all about the glove. What he brings to the field is way more important then his lack of hitting. With ole man Rolen at 3rd we MUST have a SS with great range, a great glove and a superior arm, all of which Janish has. So what if he hits .220 and only hits 5-10 HR and drives in fewer then 50, the runs he will save at SS will more then make up for those hitting nmbers...

he won't hit .220 but I see where your going. He has adapted very well to pitching the more he see it at every level. His track record says that. The average mlb shortstop hits .260 so if he hits that then he is right there with the rest of them. Just hit him 7 or 8. If he gives us solid play up the middle and saves us runs with that play then I would love to have that too. Yes in the long haul your numbers say you are what you are. Saying that his numbers indicate he will be a .260 to .265 hitter which is right there with the rest of the SS in the game.

757690
01-12-2011, 06:12 PM
It isn't Ignorant...

He left out the fact that those years 2007-2008 Janish was 24 & 25 years old where even if some of the players are older 25+ they are hitting at a AAAA level and Janish's production isn't even where players 21-22-23 years of age are...

That tells you more than anything about the Player...

What tells me the most about a player is what he has done lately. Not what he did 4 years ago.

Last season, Janish was a 1 WAR player in only 228 AB's. That translates to a 2.8 WAR over a full season. Even if you believe that he will wear down over a full season, and cut his WAR by a third, he would be a 1.9 WAR player over a full season. While that is not ideal, it put him right in the middle of all the starting SS last season. For the record, 2.8 would put him in the top 10.

I also don't buy this "wearing down" rhetoric. Janish is 6''1' and 195 pounds. He was a pitcher at Rice as well as the team's SS. He is probably one of the team's best all around athletes. He is not the 98 pound weakling that you make him out to be.

Paul Janish has shown that he can be a decent, average starting SS in the majors if given the chance. I'm looking forward to him getting that chance in 2010.

DocRed
01-13-2011, 01:55 PM
Did Paul Janish dump your sister or something?

Seņor Rojo
01-16-2011, 12:02 AM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/01/15/janish-appreciates-calls-from-jocketty-baker/

Renteria provides Janish with the opportunity to learn from someone who has a lot of experience. Jim Edmonds's arrival in Cincinnati was the beginning of Bruce greatly improving from his slump. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I like the thought of having veterans on the team, who can mentor the less experienced players. Janish's batting statistically improved last season with him playing along with Cabrera. If nothing else, a little competition (no matter how meager) never hurt anyone.

RoundingThird
01-20-2011, 07:46 AM
For a variety of reasons, I ended up watching the Giants quite a bit last season and Renteria (when he actually was healthy enough to play) looked very very old, and really like a shell of the player he used to be. But You gotta give the guy credit for an awesome world series. Maybe if his playing time, AB's, and health is managed the right way he can again provide some offense in spurts this season. I think it might actually be a good low-risk signing unless we try to put him into a long-term starting role which he clearly is not capable of at this point of his career.