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View Full Version : Cardinals WILL be tough



Wheelhouse
01-10-2011, 02:36 PM
For these reasons:

1) They have some poorly performing ex-Reds off their roster like Fleepy and LaRue while adding two guys with a quality, professional approach, who are great in the clubhouse: Berkman and Theriot. What was evident about the Cards last year is that they played well against good teams and lousy against bad teams. This is symptom of bad approach/clubhouse which the Cards seem to have dealt with.

2) Theriot is an improvement over Ryan--Ryan was too young, pushing limited ability in a lineup that was struggling. Not a good combo.

3) They have tremendous starting pitching.

4) The presence of Berkman, though not what he once was by any stretch, will deepen the Cards' Pujols/Holliday lineup, and release some pressure on the younger guys like Rasmus. Berkman could be the move that clicks the lineup right.

The arguments that Pujols is prone to injury and the corner OF defense is lousy are very valid. A prolonged injury to Pujols could sink them immediately. Berkman being just a joke in the OF, or an injury to Rasmus, who will be picking up the OF defense slack, could sink them too. But I don't expect them to be anywhere near as bad as they were last year...

TRF
01-10-2011, 02:53 PM
For these reasons:

1) They have some poorly performing ex-Reds off their roster like Fleepy and LaRue while adding two guys with a quality, professional approach, who are great in the clubhouse: Berkman and Theriot. What was evident about the Cards last year is that they played well against good teams and lousy against bad teams. This is symptom of bad approach/clubhouse which the Cards seem to have dealt with.

improving your team improves your team. Theriot is not an improvement. Berkman better be channeling his 2004 self, because RF is gonna be fun to watch.


2) Theriot is an improvement over Ryan--Ryan was too young, pushing limited ability in a lineup that was struggling. Not a good combo.

Theriot has the range of a pregnant llama in a forest fire.


3) They have tremendous starting pitching.

They had it last year too.


4) The presence of Berkman, though not what he once was by any stretch, will deepen the Cards' Pujols/Holliday lineup, and release some pressure on the younger guys like Rasmus. Berkman could be the move that clicks the lineup right.

You are right. I can almost see Berkman starting over Rasmus. TLR is a genius that way.


The arguments that Pujols is prone to injury and the corner OF defense is lousy are very valid. A prolonged injury to Pujols could sink them immediately. Berkman being just a joke in the OF, or an injury to Rasmus, who will be picking up the OF defense slack, could sink them too. But I don't expect them to be anywhere near as bad as they were last year...

They won 86 games. that is by no definition "bad". Now, their reaction to that? heh. that was bad.

fearofpopvol1
01-10-2011, 03:50 PM
improving your team improves your team. Theriot is not an improvement. Berkman better be channeling his 2004 self, because RF is gonna be fun to watch.

Theriot has the range of a pregnant llama in a forest fire.



Theriot has pretty much been a positive defender in the field every year of his career except for 2010. He's not as good with the glove as Ryan, but his bat is much better than Ryan's. This is a net gain for the Cards.

TRF
01-10-2011, 05:11 PM
well Ryan is a career .658 OPS guy to Theriot's .704. But Theriot has been in a tailspin the last 2 seasons and is 2 years older. If these are his peak years... ouch.

Defensively, Theriot reminds me of Ryan Freel, lots of dirt on the uniform.

PuffyPig
01-10-2011, 05:16 PM
Theriot has pretty much been a positive defender in the field every year of his career except for 2010. He's not as good with the glove as Ryan, but his bat is much better than Ryan's. This is a net gain for the Cards.

Theriot was absolutely a horrible hitter last year. Probably the worst power hitter in baseball.

I'd take Ryan any day of the week and, of course, twice on Sunday.

kbrake
01-10-2011, 05:20 PM
I think everyone in the Central got better except for the Cards. I really don't understand some of the moves they made. Berkman in RF makes no sense to me and it was already said will be fun to watch. I'd be amazed if Garcia doesn't struggle to match last seasons numbers. Wainwright, Pujols, Rasmus, Holliday will be beast like usual but it wasn't enough in 2010 and I have no idea why it would be enough in 2011.

PuffyPig
01-10-2011, 05:55 PM
1) What was evident about the Cards last year is that they played well against good teams and lousy against bad teams. This is symptom of bad approach/clubhouse which the Cards seem to have dealt with.




Likely more randomness/small sample size.

Teams that play lousy against lousy teams are usually less than stellar.

Go figure.

RedsManRick
01-10-2011, 06:11 PM
I think you have understated the defensive changes. Brendan Ryan is one of the best defensive SS in baseball. Theriot is league aveage at best -- good hands, poor range.

Berkman last had a good defensive year in the OF in 2003.

The Cards pitchers will be suffering from the decline.

All that said, I don't think anybody was under the impression they'd be a walk in the park.

fearofpopvol1
01-10-2011, 06:18 PM
Theriot was absolutely a horrible hitter last year. Probably the worst power hitter in baseball.

I'd take Ryan any day of the week and, of course, twice on Sunday.

Power hitter? Since when was Theriot a power hitter? I've never heard anyone refer to Theriot as a power hitter. There is no doubt he had a crappy year last year, but as a player he's been a bit better than league average for his career.

Also, Ryan OPS'ed .573 last year, which might qualify him to be a decent AA player.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2011, 06:25 PM
Power hitter? Since when was Theriot a power hitter? I've never heard anyone refer to Theriot as a power hitter. There is no doubt he had a crappy year last year, but as a player he's been a bit better than league average for his career.

Also, Ryan OPS'ed .573 last year, which might qualify him to be a decent AA player.

I beleive he meant one of the worst hitters in respect to power.

The Operator
01-10-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm still worried about The Cards, but not because of any additions they've made this offseason.

I'm more concerned about the things that affected us last season: Carpenter and his son, Wainwright, Garcia, Pujols, Holliday, Molina.

Theriot is a 2B playing SS and Berkman is a DH playing RF. Their bats might be better than what they replaced but the Cardinals defense just got a lot worse. And with The Cardinals pitch to contact philosophy, well I'll be interested to see how that works out.

kaldaniels
01-10-2011, 06:30 PM
I'm not sold on Garcia...albeit I'm not sold on Mike Leake either.

PuffyPig
01-10-2011, 06:46 PM
I'm not sold on Garcia...albeit I'm not sold on Mike Leake either.

Garcia is their 3rd starter. Leake is likely starting in the minors.

PuffyPig
01-10-2011, 06:50 PM
I beleive he meant one of the worst hitters in respect to power.



Yes I did.

19 Xtra base hits in 640 PA.

That is beyond bad.

kaldaniels
01-10-2011, 06:53 PM
Garcia is their 3rd starter. Leake is likely starting in the minors.

I know. I said that in order to show I'm evenhandedly hard to please.

fearofpopvol1
01-10-2011, 06:58 PM
Yes I did.

19 Xtra base hits in 640 PA.

That is beyond bad.

Ryan has had 5.6% of his PAs go for XBH while Theriot has had 4.6% go for XBH. Color me unexcited by Ryan's power.

GADawg
01-10-2011, 07:13 PM
my hope for '11 is that the Reds repeat(of course) but in a heated race coming in a close 2nd is that Chris Carpenter comes crashing down to earth and becomes very mediocre.

Homer Bailey
01-10-2011, 07:20 PM
my hope for '11 is that the Reds repeat(of course) but in a heated race coming in a close 2nd is that Chris Carpenter comes crashing down to earth and becomes very mediocre.

I got this one guys...


But how will explaint that to his son?

Scrap Irony
01-10-2011, 07:26 PM
Carpenter will be 36 most of next season and has a pretty extreme injury history.

Garcia could be susceptible to the Verducci Effect, as his jump in innings was massive in 2010.

That said, St. Louis should hit when everyone's healthy. Schumaker should hit better and Theriot should hit better than Ryan as well. Freese could really shine as the sixth hitter in that lineup. (Behind Rasmus, Pujols, Halladay, and Berkman, he could very well knock in 120 runs with a mediocre year. He could very well go 300/20/120 with little problem. As a sixth place hitter.)

But, defensively, only catcher and perhaps 1B are above league average.

It'll be interesting to see anyway.

hebroncougar
01-10-2011, 08:07 PM
Put the ball in play..........watch it fall. Their OF defense will be absolutely atrocious. Garcia regresses, Carpenter ages........Cards finish third. Behind the Reds and Milwaukee.

PuffyPig
01-11-2011, 06:56 AM
Ryan has had 5.6% of his PAs go for XBH while Theriot has had 4.6% go for XBH. Color me unexcited by Ryan's power.

Considering that Theriot's claim to fame over Ryan is that he carries a much better stick, being about 22% BEHIND Ryan in XBH is nothing to crow about.

PuffyPig
01-11-2011, 07:12 AM
Freese could really shine as the sixth hitter in that lineup. (Behind Rasmus, Pujols, Halladay, and Berkman, he could very well knock in 120 runs with a mediocre year. He could very well go 300/20/120 with little problem. As a sixth place hitter.)



Name one hitter in the history of baseball that has ever knocked in 120 runs in a season batting 6th with a mediocre year?

Firstly, hitting behind Pujols, Holliday and Brkman will likely leavefew guys on base, as they may well be cleaned up by the time he gets to bat.

Secondly, Joey Votto knocked in 113 runs hitting third in the NL's best lineup with 37 HR's and a .324 BA. And you expect Freese to knock in 120 runs hitting 6th with a mediocre year? Which would be more than any player in the NL got last year.

Thirdly, Freese is coming off of a very serious injury and his health is questionable. Plus he's had very little success in the majors, and at age 28 isn't likely to pull a Ludwick. FWIW, Scot Rolen got more than 110 RBI's once in his career. And he was batting cleanup.

Even FCB wouldn't make such an outlandish claim about a team he so dearly loves.

fearofpopvol1
01-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Considering that Theriot's claim to fame over Ryan is that he carries a much better stick, being about 22% BEHIND Ryan in XBH is nothing to crow about.

Theriot's career OPS is 50 points higher.

PuffyPig
01-11-2011, 02:19 PM
Theriot's career OPS is 50 points higher.


Not a lot when Ryan carries a superb glove and Theriot's range is very below average. And Theriot's worse year with the stick was last year, and he's seldolm hit much outside of Wrigley Field. Ryan is also young enough that he might just get better.

I'd take Ryan over Theriot any day of the week, and the fact that he's about half his cost is nothing to sneeze at either.

fearofpopvol1
01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
Not a lot when Ryan carries a superb glove and Theriot's range is very below average. And Theriot's worse year with the stick was last year, and he's seldolm hit much outside of Wrigley Field. Ryan is also young enough that he might just get better.

I'd take Ryan over Theriot any day of the week, and the fact that he's about half his cost is nothing to sneeze at either.

Ryan is really not that much younger than Theriot. Theriot's defense over his career has been at least league average, maybe a tick above. And his stick, for the position, has also been at least a tick above average.

Even with Ryan's superior glove last year, he was still only 1 WAR. Better than Theriot last year, for sure.

Ryan has a good 2009 to his name and that's about it.

Reds1
01-11-2011, 03:06 PM
Yes, the Cardinals always seem to put a quality team out there, but depth is still an issue. I'm more worried about the Brewers after their off season. The Cubs will be around too. The central (except for Pitt) should be a nice division this year. Pitt has those scrapy guys and will get hot and cold - lets just hope we get more of the cold when we play them.

edabbs44
01-11-2011, 03:58 PM
Yes I did.

19 Xtra base hits in 640 PA.

That is beyond bad.

4th worst in SLG with 500 or more PAs.

Izturis, Andrus and Figgins beat him out.