PDA

View Full Version : 10 Most Lopsided Trades in the Reds' Favor



Bob Borkowski
01-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Just up on the Cincinnati Enquirer page (John Fay)

He chooses these 10 deals:


Brandon Phillips

Bronson Arroyo

Danny Jackson

Tom Seaver

The Nov-'71 trade with Houston (Morgan and all)

Bob Purkey

Bucky Walters

Eppa Rixey

Edd Roush

Heinie Groh



I mentioned in the Comments section that the Gus Bell deal has to be part of the list somewhere. The Danny Jackson deal was a good one but not great. He had one stupendous season ('88) but otherwise just OK. I'd drop that trade from the list. Bell was with the Reds for 9 seasons and was SOLID.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/01/14/10-most-lopsided-trades-in-the-reds-favor/#more-9977

RFS62
01-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Bob.... how could you possibly leave out the deal where we stole Milt Pappas for that washed up "old for 30" Robinson dude.

We really showed them.

HokieRed
01-14-2011, 11:06 PM
Got to have George Foster for Frank Duffy on that list.

PuffyPig
01-14-2011, 11:57 PM
Got to have George Foster for Frank Duffy on that list.

That may be #2 on the list, after the Morgan et al theft.

How about Granger and Tolan for Pinson? Granger was turned into Tom Hall, and Tolan for Clay Kirby for a little more value.

westofyou
01-15-2011, 12:06 AM
Lombardi:
March 14, 1932: Traded by the Brooklyn Dodgers with Wally Gilbert and Babe Herman to the Cincinnati Reds for Tony Cuccinello, Joe Stripp and Clyde Sukeforth.

mth123
01-15-2011, 12:44 AM
Not high profile, but getting Fred Norman for Gene Locklear stabilized the Reds rotation and provided solid innings for a lot of years.

camisadelgolf
01-15-2011, 12:54 AM
Josh Hamilton, 2010's AL MVP, for only $50k?

corkedbat
01-15-2011, 02:05 AM
Yeah, the Foster Duffy deal and the Morgan mega deal might be there among the all-time deals in MLB history too.

Giving up a little needed MI (and I believe there was another warm body) for a young corner OF who turned out to have monstrous power was amazing. It really put the finishing touches on the BRM allowing Rose to move to third base. Don't know whether it was dumb luck or sheer brilliance, but knowing Bob Howsam, I'd lean heavily toward the latter.

3B Pete Rose
RF Ken Griffey
2B Joe Morgan
1B Tony Perez
CA Johnny Bench
RF George Foster
SS Davey Concepcion
CF Cesar Geronimo

That may have been as perfectly balanced a lineup as there has been in my lifetime - especially before free agancy really took off.

Speed at the top, power throughout and decent solid OBP as well. Not to mention that all four of their core defenders up the middle Bench, Morgan, Concepcion and Geronimo won four gold gloves 1974-77.

I get kind of disgusted sometimes by the gulf in baseball between the haves and havenots. I think about how fortunate I was though to have been able to enjoy the 1975 & 76 season and it takes some of the sting away.

When you go back an look at the difference between the statistics then and now its a little mind-blowing - even the oft-forgotten pitching - Staff ERAs sub 3.50 both years, six starters winning 10 games or better both seasons, shutdown relievers from top to bottom - Mercy!

RedsBaron
01-15-2011, 08:05 AM
That may be #2 on the list, after the Morgan et al theft.

How about Granger and Tolan for Pinson? Granger was turned into Tom Hall, and Tolan for Clay Kirby for a little more value.

Granger and Tolan were great additions for a couple of seasons, 1969-70, just on their own. Take that duo away from the Reds and the 1970 NO pennant would have been more difficult to nail down. Tolan hit .316 with 16 HRs and a league leading 57 stolen bases, while Granger was the NL Fireman of the Year. Howsam then flipped them for Hall and Kirby.
Howsam's trades for Clay Carroll and for Alex Johnson were also good pickups.
Best ever trade was the acquisition of Morgan, Billingham, Geronimo, et al. Second best ever trade was acquring Foster.

membengal
01-15-2011, 09:27 AM
I've always enjoyed that Wayne krenchicki turned into Norm Charlton.

MikeS21
01-15-2011, 11:01 AM
Didn't the Reds get Bronson Arroyo in return for Willy Mo Pena?

Reds got Sean Casey and gave up Mark Portugal.

Edd Roush
01-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Didn't the Reds get Bronson Arroyo in return for Willy Mo Pena?

Reds got Sean Casey and gave up Mark Portugal.

We traded our ace the day before Opening Day (Dave Burba) for Sean Casey. That trade was good for the Reds, but not a top ten steal IMO.

Bob Borkowski
01-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Fay has now expanded the list of trades to 15. The names added are:


John Franco

George Foster

Joey Jay

Gus Bell

Ernie Lombardi


Are there still some glaring omissions?

WebScorpion
01-15-2011, 01:28 PM
December 9th, 1977 - The A's and Reds announce a deal that will send P Vida Blue to Cincinnati for OF Dave Revering and $1.75 million cash. Adding a Cy Young award winning pitcher to the two-time World Champion Reds lineup proves to be just too much. Commissioner Bowie Kuhn voids the deal less than 2 months later... I was looking forward to that 3rd championship. :angry:

Oh yeah, Blue went on to pitch 258 innings of 1.17 WHIP ball for the Giants and the Reds finished 2.5 games behind the Dodgers in 1978.

westofyou
01-15-2011, 01:30 PM
Are there still some glaring omissions?

Derringer:

Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals with Sparky Adams and Allyn Stout to the Cincinnati Reds for Leo Durocher, Dutch Henry and Jack Ogden.

Bob Borkowski
01-15-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm enjoying this thread. It's lots of fun thinking about the players acquired by us for a song...lots of great memories. :)

The hard part will be looking at the list Fay will be coming up with next - the trades that backfired on the Reds. Players involved such as , oh I don't know, maybe Christy Mathewson and Frank Robinson! Oh my laundry! :all_cohol

westofyou
01-15-2011, 02:22 PM
the trades that backfired on the Reds

Adcock trade
Sauer Trade
Getting Frank Thomas
Harper for Culver
Flood trade
Osteen trade

George Anderson
01-15-2011, 02:30 PM
- the trades that backfired on the Reds.

Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly.
Hal McRae for Roger Nelson and Richie Scheinblum.

RedsBaron
01-15-2011, 03:45 PM
The Reds traded Ross Grimsley to the Orioles after 1973 for Merv Rettenmund. In 1974 Grimsley won 18 games for the O's while Rettenmund was terrible. Put Grimsley on the '74 Reds and perhaps they catch LA in the NL West.
In June of 1977 the Reds traded Mike Caldwell for nothing much. In 1978 Caldwell won 22 games for the Brewers while Grimsley won 20 for the Expos, and both pitchers had good ERAs. The Reds got nothing from either trade. If both Grimsley and Caldwell had been on the 1978 staff the Reds would have returned to the World Series that year, Sparky would not have been fired, there would have been world peace, etc.

westofyou
01-15-2011, 04:07 PM
The Reds traded Ross Grimsley to the Orioles after 1973 for Merv Rettenmund. In 1974 Grimsley won 18 games for the O's while Rettenmund was terrible. Put Grimsley on the '74 Reds and perhaps they catch LA in the NL West.
In June of 1977 the Reds traded Mike Caldwell for nothing much. In 1978 Caldwell won 22 games for the Brewers while Grimsley won 20 for the Expos, and both pitchers had good ERAs. The Reds got nothing from either trade. If both Grimsley and Caldwell had been on the 1978 staff the Reds would have returned to the World Series that year, Sparky would not have been fired, there would have been world peace, etc.

Both learned the spitter from George Bamberger however, that's what extended their careers. Grimsley forced the hand of the Reds when he and Sparky butted heads, he was definitely "new school" and a junkballer in a fastball league. Apparently once while getting bombed in Baltimore Bamberger came to the mound and asked him if he had ever thought of cheating to get the pitch in, Grimsley apparently said no, and Bamberger replied, maybe you should.

When Caldwell was a Brewer he was crediting his new found 'sinker' as his success that year, one of the other team managers replied, "So that's what they're calling it now."

Maybe the Reds need Bamberger more than Grimsley and Caldwell.

Chip R
01-15-2011, 04:27 PM
December 9th, 1977 - The A's and Reds announce a deal that will send P Vida Blue to Cincinnati for OF Dave Revering and $1.75 million cash. Adding a Cy Young award winning pitcher to the two-time World Champion Reds lineup proves to be just too much. Commissioner Bowie Kuhn voids the deal less than 2 months later... I was looking forward to that 3rd championship. :angry:

Oh yeah, Blue went on to pitch 258 innings of 1.17 WHIP ball for the Giants and the Reds finished 2.5 games behind the Dodgers in 1978.

:bang::bang::bang::bang:

HokieRed
01-15-2011, 07:24 PM
Among the bad ones, Perez for Fryman has to rank high.

PuffyPig
01-16-2011, 11:51 AM
Among the bad ones, Perez for Fryman has to rank high.

We also got Dale Murray, who was (at the time) a reliever in the Scott Sullivan mold.

It should have been a good trade, as the paramters were well thought out.

Instead of allowing the BRM to get old and run down, trade its oldest (Rose was actually older but he doesn't count) component for some decent pitching depth, when we had the multi-talented Driessen in the wings chomping to play.

Driessen had decent (if unacceptional) power, but was a high average, slick fielding firstbaseman who could draw walks and steal 30 bases.

But he regressed somewhat in all phases of his game, and the Reds underestimated Perez' influence on the rest of the team.

The trade was the first dismantling of the BGM and, as such, was a horrible trade. But I remember understanding it and liking it at the time.

FWIW, Driessen actually outhit Perez in the first year following the trade, .843 OPS to .816. In the next 3 years, they were pretty similar.

But it's one case where I think you need to look beyond the numbers, as every member of the BRM will tell you.

VR
01-16-2011, 12:11 PM
Adcock trade
Sauer Trade
Getting Frank Thomas
Harper for Culver
Flood trade
Osteen trade

Non-Reds fans would add Hamilton to that list.

westofyou
01-16-2011, 12:26 PM
Non-Reds fans would add Hamilton to that list.

Jury still out there

HokieRed
01-16-2011, 01:07 PM
We also got Dale Murray, who was (at the time) a reliever in the Scott Sullivan mold.

It should have been a good trade, as the paramters were well thought out.

Instead of allowing the BRM to get old and run down, trade its oldest (Rose was actually older but he doesn't count) component for some decent pitching depth, when we had the multi-talented Driessen in the wings chomping to play.

Driessen had decent (if unacceptional) power, but was a high average, slick fielding firstbaseman who could draw walks and steal 30 bases.

But he regressed somewhat in all phases of his game, and the Reds underestimated Perez' influence on the rest of the team.

The trade was the first dismantling of the BGM and, as such, was a horrible trade. But I remember understanding it and liking it at the time.

FWIW, Driessen actually outhit Perez in the first year following the trade, .843 OPS to .816. In the next 3 years, they were pretty similar.

But it's one case where I think you need to look beyond the numbers, as every member of the BRM will tell you.

Unlike you, Puffy, I hated the trade from Day One. I remembered the Robinson trade all too well.

Tony Cloninger
01-16-2011, 01:12 PM
Gary Nolan got mono during ST and then hurt his toe and then his arm again...as the year went on...plus he was a Jerry K client....so he went out with Eastwick and the rest on June 15. That whole year was a mess.....FA made everyone ask for their share...and it looked like the players were not feeling the FO was being loyal. From the Perez trade down to new contracts.

Joe Horner replaces Caldwell in the bullpen? Terrible bench that year as well. I think the average of the reserves was a combined barely .200 with 0 pop really.

westofyou
01-16-2011, 02:03 PM
We also got Dale Murray, who was (at the time) a reliever in the Scott Sullivan mold.

It should have been a good trade, as the paramters were well thought out.

Instead of allowing the BRM to get old and run down, trade its oldest (Rose was actually older but he doesn't count) component for some decent pitching depth, when we had the multi-talented Driessen in the wings chomping to play.

Driessen had decent (if unacceptional) power, but was a high average, slick fielding firstbaseman who could draw walks and steal 30 bases.

But he regressed somewhat in all phases of his game, and the Reds underestimated Perez' influence on the rest of the team.

The trade was the first dismantling of the BGM and, as such, was a horrible trade. But I remember understanding it and liking it at the time.

FWIW, Driessen actually outhit Perez in the first year following the trade, .843 OPS to .816. In the next 3 years, they were pretty similar.

But it's one case where I think you need to look beyond the numbers, as every member of the BRM will tell you.
Both reds were Jerry Kapstein clients, that was a part of it.

VR
01-16-2011, 02:58 PM
Jury still out there

For Reds fans....yes. On the surface for the baseball world, no.

Benihana
01-17-2011, 07:41 PM
As much as I like him as a guy, Dave Parker for Jose Rijo (and Tim Birtsas) worked out quite nicely. Ditto for Van Snider for Hal Morris (and Lou Pinella?)

REDREAD
01-18-2011, 11:00 AM
Non-Reds fans would add Hamilton to that list.

I would too. (Add Hamilton to the backfire list)

Ted Power wasn't a top 15 pickup, but it's simliar to Franco.. Got a closer for nothing. Not saying that Power was as good as Franco.

Hopefully, in a couple more years, Rolen will be added to the top 15 list :)
Right now, I think it's at least a top 40 trade, in terms of relevance.
I guess I value trades like Rolen (and Neagle/Vaughn) higher than most fans, because those moves made the team relevant.

In contrast, Franco did not really make the team relevant, as the rest of the team was not very good.



For Reds fans....yes. On the surface for the baseball world, no.


Yep, no offense to anyone, but some Reds' fans are still in denial.
Sure, it's possible that somehow Volquez will become the ace we hope he will be and Hamilton will fall off the face of the earth. Is it likely? No.

Sea Ray
01-18-2011, 04:34 PM
A backfire list would have to include Jim Bowden's biggest blunder:

leaving Trevor Hoffman unprotected in the expansion draft. Now they're discussing him as a Hall of Famer. How many Hall of Famers were left unprotected? Bowden's in some rare company there

George Anderson
01-18-2011, 05:33 PM
A backfire list would have to include Jim Bowden's biggest blunder:

leaving Trevor Hoffman unprotected in the expansion draft. Now they're discussing him as a Hall of Famer. How many Hall of Famers were left unprotected? Bowden's in some rare company there

What was the background on this blunder???

Did Jimbo just think Hoffman wasn't very good?

westofyou
01-18-2011, 05:41 PM
What was the background on this blunder???

Did Jimbo just think Hoffman wasn't very good?

Background is simple, Hoffman was a converted position player, he had 2 years in the ML as a reliever and the hope was that that would keep him from being coveted. But he was picked in the 4th round, before the man who was their closer that year (Bryan Harvey)

It was gamble... but not as large a loss as the Reds passing on buying Babe Ruth in 1914, keeping Ken Williams in 1916, not keeping Johnny Mize for 50 K in 1935 or maybe even losing George Mquinn in 1936.

Sea Ray
01-18-2011, 06:02 PM
What was the background on this blunder???

Did Jimbo just think Hoffman wasn't very good?

As I recall, it went like this:

Bowden was down to protecting Hoffman or 1B Tim Costo. He decided to go with Costo probably for two reasons. One, Bowden always loved big, slugging first basemen and two, the Reds had a lot invested in Costo due to their trading top minor league prospect Reggie Jefferson for him in 1991.

Now, this whole situation exemplifies Jim Bowden. When the choice comes down to a 1B or a pitcher, common sense says you go with the pitcher as 1B are much easier to come by. Bowden never got that. He drooled over power hitters.

He was an idiot for erring with the 1B and letting the pitching prospect go regardless of what happened thereafter.

TheNext44
01-18-2011, 08:36 PM
As I recall, it went like this:

Bowden was down to protecting Hoffman or 1B Tim Costo. He decided to go with Costo probably for two reasons. One, Bowden always loved big, slugging first basemen and two, the Reds had a lot invested in Costo due to their trading top minor league prospect Reggie Jefferson for him in 1991.

Now, this whole situation exemplifies Jim Bowden. When the choice comes down to a 1B or a pitcher, common sense says you go with the pitcher as 1B are much easier to come by. Bowden never got that. He drooled over power hitters.

He was an idiot for erring with the 1B and letting the pitching prospect go regardless of what happened thereafter.

It was even worst than that. He also protected Tim Pugh, who basically had a good month of September the season earlier. Pugh was the 90's version of Sam Lecure. Even if he had reached his potential, he would have been a very replaceable player. IIRC, pretty much the entire development department demanded Hoffman be protected, but Bowden was more interested in protecting MLB ready players. I know I was upset when Hoffman wasn't protected.

westofyou
01-18-2011, 09:09 PM
It was even worst than that. He also protected Tim Pugh, who basically had a good month of September the season earlier. Pugh was the 90's version of Sam Lecure. Even if he had reached his potential, he would have been a very replaceable player. IIRC, pretty much the entire development department demanded Hoffman be protected, but Bowden was more interested in protecting MLB ready players. I know I was upset when Hoffman wasn't protected.

Let's also note that Bowden was on the job about 6 weeks by the time the draft occurred, he had also just traded O'Neil, chances are he was covering his bets that a RELIEF pitcher in the minors wouldn't amount to much.

As bets go that's not hitting on 15 as far as I can see.

Sea Ray
01-19-2011, 02:03 PM
Let's also note that Bowden was on the job about 6 weeks by the time the draft occurred, he had also just traded O'Neil, chances are he was covering his bets that a RELIEF pitcher in the minors wouldn't amount to much.

As bets go that's not hitting on 15 as far as I can see.

As bets go, he lost bigtime

TheNext44
01-19-2011, 05:50 PM
Let's also note that Bowden was on the job about 6 weeks by the time the draft occurred, he had also just traded O'Neil, chances are he was covering his bets that a RELIEF pitcher in the minors wouldn't amount to much.

As bets go that's not hitting on 15 as far as I can see.


Hoffman had put up dominating numbers in his first two seasons as a pitcher, averaging over 10 K's per 9 innings, and raking up over 30 saves. He was a top 100 prospect in the majors and considered a future closer, which at that time was probably even a more valuable community than now, especially for the Reds, whose team was built around a strong bullpen and who lacked any closer prospects besides Hoffman at the time.

This wasn't like leaving a future Ondrusek unprotected.

westofyou
01-19-2011, 06:03 PM
Hoffman had put up dominating numbers in his first two seasons as a pitcher, averaging over 10 K's per 9 innings, and raking up over 30 saves. He was a top 100 prospect in the majors and considered a future closer, which at that time was probably even a more valuable community than now, especially for the Reds, whose team was built around a strong bullpen and who lacked any closer prospects besides Hoffman at the time.

This wasn't like leaving a future Ondrusek unprotected.

All true, at the time the Reds were great at producing BP arms and they had 2 relievers with over 25 saves, chances are they felt they were safer there at the time than they really were. My take was that they kept Costo because they had ended up losing Jefferson for him on an earlier move that was lambasted... plus Costo had just hit 28 dingers in AA that year.

Big Klu
01-19-2011, 11:26 PM
All true, at the time the Reds were great at producing BP arms and they had 2 relievers with over 25 saves, chances are they felt they were safer there at the time than they really were. My take was that they kept Costo because they had ended up losing Jefferson for him on an earlier move that was lambasted... plus Costo had just hit 28 dingers in AA that year.

If I recall correctly, Bob Quinn inadvertently designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment. (Jefferson was one of the Reds' top minor-league hitting prospects at the time, and someone they were considering moving Hal Morris to LF to make room for at 1B.) The Indians could have had him for nothing, but their GM (either Hank Peters or John Hart--I'm not sure which one was in charge at the time) decided to work out a deal with the Reds as a courtesy, and the Reds received Tim Costo.

camisadelgolf
01-19-2011, 11:38 PM
If I recall correctly, Bob Quinn inadvertently designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment. (Jefferson was one of the Reds' top minor-league hitting prospects at the time, and someone they were considering moving Hal Morris to LF to make room for at 1B.) The Indians could have had him for nothing, but their GM (either Hank Peters or John Hart--I'm not sure which one was in charge at the time) decided to work out a deal with the Reds as a courtesy, and the Reds received Tim Costo.
I never knew about that. I just looked it up, and it's one of the most hilarious baseball transactions I've ever seen.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-06-28/sports/1991179185_1_assignment-list-jefferson-trade

If baseball did videos of front-office bloopers, the trade of prospects between Cincinnati and Cleveland a couple of weeks ago might lead this season's highlight film.

It all started when the Reds designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment rather than put him on the disabled list.

westofyou
01-19-2011, 11:38 PM
If I recall correctly, Bob Quinn inadvertently designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment. (Jefferson was one of the Reds' top minor-league hitting prospects at the time, and someone they were considering moving Hal Morris to LF to make room for at 1B.) The Indians could have had him for nothing, but their GM (either Hank Peters or John Hart--I'm not sure which one was in charge at the time) decided to work out a deal with the Reds as a courtesy, and the Reds received Tim Costo.

Yep, that's what happened, also at the time Spring training magazine (http://springtrainingmagazine.com/top1991-92.html#1992) had Costo listed as the #26 prospect in the ML and Hoffman was listed at #84

HokieRed
01-19-2011, 11:49 PM
If I recall correctly, Bob Quinn inadvertently designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment. (Jefferson was one of the Reds' top minor-league hitting prospects at the time, and someone they were considering moving Hal Morris to LF to make room for at 1B.) The Indians could have had him for nothing, but their GM (either Hank Peters or John Hart--I'm not sure which one was in charge at the time) decided to work out a deal with the Reds as a courtesy, and the Reds received Tim Costo.

I sort of remember, too, (and correct me if I'm wrong) that a name mentioned for possible trade before Costo was settled on was none other than Jim Thome.

camisadelgolf
01-19-2011, 11:49 PM
Yep, that's what happened, also at the time Spring training magazine (http://springtrainingmagazine.com/top1991-92.html#1992) had Costo listed as the #26 prospect in the ML and Hoffman was listed at #84
Cost was #14 in '91.

11. Mo Vaughn
12. Reggie Sanders
13. Jeff Bagwell
14. Tim Costo

Sea Ray
01-20-2011, 08:23 AM
Cost was #14 in '91.

11. Mo Vaughn
12. Reggie Sanders
13. Jeff Bagwell
14. Tim Costo

Kinda goes to show what you can do with rankings...

Sea Ray
01-20-2011, 08:28 AM
Yep, that's what happened, also at the time Spring training magazine (http://springtrainingmagazine.com/top1991-92.html#1992) had Costo listed as the #26 prospect in the ML and Hoffman was listed at #84

Having a top 100 prospect in your system is rare. Most teams only have a few. Why in the world would you leave any top 100 prospect unprotected in an expansion draft? You only have to leave three on your 40 man unprotected and that includes utility players and overpaid veterans. If these expansion teams got a top 100 prospect from every team they'd be tickled pink

Sea Ray
01-20-2011, 08:31 AM
If I recall correctly, Bob Quinn inadvertently designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment. (Jefferson was one of the Reds' top minor-league hitting prospects at the time, and someone they were considering moving Hal Morris to LF to make room for at 1B.) The Indians could have had him for nothing, but their GM (either Hank Peters or John Hart--I'm not sure which one was in charge at the time) decided to work out a deal with the Reds as a courtesy, and the Reds received Tim Costo.

That is correct however I don't know that it was charity that led to Costo being offered. My guess is the Indians didn't think he'd survive the waiver claims in order to get to them

Big Klu
01-20-2011, 08:41 AM
Cost was #14 in '91.

11. Mo Vaughn
12. Reggie Sanders
13. Jeff Bagwell
14. Tim Costo

Three of these kids belong together,
Three of these kids are kind of the same.
But one of these kids is doing his own thing.
Now it's time to play our game--
It's time to play our game.