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View Full Version : Is Drew Stubbs the next CarGo???



icehole3
01-18-2011, 11:51 AM
a lot of Reds fans didnt like Stubbs for years, I felt he was about as close to Eric Davis as anyone in the Reds farm system, Im glad he's getting some props these days

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110117&content_id=16448146&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb


Drew Stubbs, CF, Reds: Cincinnati already got cozy with Jay Bruce this winter and just locked in reigning MVP Joey Votto. In Stubbs, they might have another young player who might one day be deemed worthy of a long-term investment, if his 2010 is any indication.

TRF
01-18-2011, 01:01 PM
I'd love it if he becomes Eric Davis. I was the guy most down on Stubbs, mostly because I thought the Reds had mis-managed him. He's not a leadoff hitter, he likely never be a leadoff hitter. I can see a .260 .340 .480 line for several years to come. I'd never bat him higher than 6th if I could help it.

icehole3
01-18-2011, 01:10 PM
I'd love it if he becomes Eric Davis. I was the guy most down on Stubbs, mostly because I thought the Reds had mis-managed him. He's not a leadoff hitter, he likely never be a leadoff hitter. I can see a .260 .340 .480 line for several years to come. I'd never bat him higher than 6th if I could help it.

I think he could develop into a good solid number 3 batter

TRF
01-18-2011, 01:12 PM
I think he could develop into a good solid number 3 batter

maybe. but the Reds have a better one in place for the next three years, and his replacement (Bruce) should he walk after that.

15fan
01-18-2011, 01:20 PM
I think Drew Stubbs' ceiling is more Reggie Sanders than Eric Davis.

A solid cog in a contender.

But definitely not a lead horse.

icehole3
01-18-2011, 01:22 PM
maybe. but the Reds have a better one in place for the next three years, and his replacement (Bruce) should he walk after that.

thats true, Im just saying he's can do what ED did, if he cuts down on the K's

Redsfan320
01-18-2011, 01:37 PM
maybe. but the Reds have a better one in place for the next three years, and his replacement (Bruce) should he walk after that.

I want Bruce batting clean up for a very long time. I wouldn't mind Stubbs-Bruce 3-4 in the post-Votto era though. Someone like Sappelt, LaMarre etc., leading off in LF, with Valika maybe batting 2nd at 2B, or Cozart if he moves there, or Hamilton; with Cisco maybe batting 5th at 3B. Just some speculation for 2014-.

320

Edd Roush
01-18-2011, 02:08 PM
I want Bruce batting clean up for a very long time. I wouldn't mind Stubbs-Bruce 3-4 in the post-Votto era though. Someone like Sappelt, LaMarre etc., leading off in LF, with Valika maybe batting 2nd at 2B, or Cozart if he moves there, or Hamilton; with Cisco maybe batting 5th at 3B. Just some speculation for 2014-.

320

Valaika needs to learn how to take a walk before we start talking about him as a potential 2 hole hitter.

Redsfan320
01-18-2011, 02:14 PM
Valaika needs to learn how to take a walk before we start talking about him as a potential 2 hole hitter.

Fair enough. I listed several other MIs who very well could be ML ready by then, we'll just see what happens.

320

dfs
01-18-2011, 03:32 PM
I think he could develop into a good solid number 3 batter

Well....sure he could. and Paul Janish could turn into ...well Barry Larkin would be a stretch.

It's not that Stubbs couldn't develop along the lines that you propose, it just that such development would be VERY unusual. Drew Stubbs, as he plays, is a decent enough player to help a team. If he gets a little better then he becomes a minor star.

Comparing Stubbs to Eric Davis sets everybody up for the same type of disappointment that many folks in cincy felt when Eric Davis was compared to Willy Mays. Davis was a great player who got booed because folks were disappointed that he wasn't Mays.

Joseph
01-18-2011, 04:35 PM
Eric Davis was my favorite player as a kid. If Stubbs gets into the ballpark of Eric Davis hitting potential, I'll be thrilled, but I dont' see it. I still think Stubbs is an excellent piece of the puzzle for a contending team. I happen to think he's a little more Andy Van Slyke but maybe thats just me being foolish.

Raisor
01-18-2011, 07:38 PM
thats true, Im just saying he's can do what ED did, if he cuts down on the K's


In ED's best season, 1987, he struck out 134 times in 129 games.

If Stubbs can put up a 991 OPS, I could care less how much he K's.

wheels
01-18-2011, 08:56 PM
In ED's best season, 1987, he struck out 134 times in 129 games.

If Stubbs can put up a 991 OPS, I could care less how much he K's.

Thank you thank you thank you.

I will say that he's got a better chance than anyone I've seen to match Eric defensively. He's also got Eric around as an instructor.

I'd have him rooming with Davis if that were possible.

Either way, Stubbs has got an impressive skill set, and I expect improvements in all of them. It will be a matter of how hard he works. If he gets consumed like Joey Votto, we're looking at a perennial All Star. Not an MVP, but definitely top three at his position.

We shall see.

Mario-Rijo
01-19-2011, 01:44 AM
CarGo, nah different kind of animal but Davis could be an eventual comp. Just not sure about CarGo being as good as he seems in Colorado, needs to prove he can do that outside of Coors. But I don't think he'll ever be a legit #3 hitter, doesn't make enough contact. But fortunately he doesn't have to be for him to be a success, play GG defense and hit 20+ bombs plus steal 30+ bases. I still see him alot like Mike Cameron (with better wheels) and putting Mike Cameron in the #3 hole means you aren't a very good team. I think at best he is either a #1,#2 or #5 hitter and right now profiles best at the top or #6. Putting Mike Cameron #6 in your lineup probably means you have a pretty solid lineup.

Based on what we have I think this is the best chance for a great future lineup:

#1 - Hamilton SS
#2 - Heisey LF
#3 - Votto 1B
#4 - Bruce RF
#5 - Stubbs CF
#6 - Frazier 3B
#7 - Mesoraco C
#8 - Cozart 2B

Grandal/Fluery C
Sappelt OF
Perez OF
Negron MIF
Soto CIF

With others like Yorman, LaMarre, Arias, Gregorious, Duran, Puckett, Torreyes (and future picks) hopefully on the cusp. I see guys like Alonso, Francisco, Valaika & Janish gone sometime in the not too distant future.

But Stubbs hitting 5th because I see him and Mes and Frazier possibly all in a similar light, if Frazier and Mes reach what I think they can they are potentially all #6 type hitters.

icehole3
01-19-2011, 04:46 AM
these Mike Cameron arguments are the same arguments that were used when guys had no faith in Stubbs ability and were labeling him a bust while he was in the minors and posters were upset that the Reds drafted him instead of Lincecum, right now to compare him to Cameron is to say he cant improve and he'll stay where he is at in his career and never get better, well we know he can get better because he has and unless a horrible event occurs he should continue to improve. Looking at the stats he's not to far from Davis, I didnt compare him to WIllie Mays, those Mays numbers are Hall of Fame numbers, I compare him to Davis because he can reach those numbers with a little more improvement, look at Stubbs numbers and then look at Davis' numbers again, he can get there, if you want to be fair to Stubbs. Calling him Cameron means he's gonna regress

mth123
01-19-2011, 06:51 AM
these Mike Cameron arguments are the same arguments that were used when guys had no faith in Stubbs ability and were labeling him a bust while he was in the minors and posters were upset that the Reds drafted him instead of Lincecum, right now to compare him to Cameron is to say he cant improve and he'll stay where he is at in his career and never get better, well we know he can get better because he has and unless a horrible event occurs he should continue to improve. Looking at the stats he's not to far from Davis, I didnt compare him to WIllie Mays, those Mays numbers are Hall of Fame numbers, I compare him to Davis because he can reach those numbers with a little more improvement, look at Stubbs numbers and then look at Davis' numbers again, he can get there, if you want to be fair to Stubbs. Calling him Cameron means he's gonna regress

If Stubbs has a career like Mike Cameron, that's a huge success story. You seem to act like its an insult. Stubbs would need to improve his OBP to reach Cameron's level. Its not a regression.

I think Cameron is a pretty good comp. Maybe Torii Hunter (a little more pop than Cameron) with a few more walks if he can improve his contact rates. Remember that Davis played in an era where offense was harder to come by and even though the raw numbers between Hunter and Davis are similar, Davis is far better (Davis career OPS+ is 125 versus 108 for Hunter and 106 for Cameron). Becoming Hunter with more walks would make Stubbs an OPS+ bat of over 110. That's pretty good, but I don't picture Stubbs ever becoming the centerpiece of a line-up the way Davis was. Stubbs can be a very good player who is a core contributer of a team (like Hunter and Cameron), but I just don't ever see him being "the guy" that the entire line-up is built around the way Davis was. Votto and Bruce both have that type of bat, but its hard for me to see that with Stubbs.

If he becomes any of that, he'll be a multiple time all star and a central figue on a very good team and a huge success for the Reds in spite of passing on Lincecum to take him.

Dan
01-19-2011, 08:03 AM
I like the Reggie Sanders comp. I think that's probably the best one.

Also think that Stubbs' best slot in the lineup would be the #2 hole, after a burner (which the Reds currently lack) leading off. With a big time base stealer on first, Stubbs would see a lot more fastballs and that would go a long way toward cutting down on his Ks and getting his numbers up.

cincrazy
01-19-2011, 08:41 AM
I like Stubbs' chances of having a pretty good career. However, I don't know how much better he's going to get. It's not like he's 21, 22 years old. What he is now may be what he is period, with maybe a few minor improvements. I'm more than ok with that. I just hope the backlash isn't too harsh when he doesn't turn into what people expect.

cincrazy
01-19-2011, 08:45 AM
these Mike Cameron arguments are the same arguments that were used when guys had no faith in Stubbs ability and were labeling him a bust while he was in the minors and posters were upset that the Reds drafted him instead of Lincecum, right now to compare him to Cameron is to say he cant improve and he'll stay where he is at in his career and never get better, well we know he can get better because he has and unless a horrible event occurs he should continue to improve. Looking at the stats he's not to far from Davis, I didnt compare him to WIllie Mays, those Mays numbers are Hall of Fame numbers, I compare him to Davis because he can reach those numbers with a little more improvement, look at Stubbs numbers and then look at Davis' numbers again, he can get there, if you want to be fair to Stubbs. Calling him Cameron means he's gonna regress

I would be absolutely thrilled if Drew Stubbs had the career of Mike Cameron. I think you're forgetting how fantastic Cameron was in Seattle, even Cincinnati before then. One of the best center fielders of his era, and a pretty darn good bat to boot. If anything I think it's a sign of respect that people are comparing Stubbs to Cameron.

Let's be honest, he could just as easily struggle next year as take a next step forward. I expect him to stay around where he's at or to improve slightly, but I could also see him hitting .235-.240 and striking out a ton, drawing the boos of the hometown faithful. Let's be honest, SOMEONE has to be the scapegoat if the Reds don't make the playoffs this year. I hope it's not Stubbs (or anyone for that matter), but he's a pretty good candidate.

bucksfan2
01-19-2011, 09:15 AM
I would be absolutely thrilled if Drew Stubbs had the career of Mike Cameron. I think you're forgetting how fantastic Cameron was in Seattle, even Cincinnati before then. One of the best center fielders of his era, and a pretty darn good bat to boot. If anything I think it's a sign of respect that people are comparing Stubbs to Cameron.

Let's be honest, he could just as easily struggle next year as take a next step forward. I expect him to stay around where he's at or to improve slightly, but I could also see him hitting .235-.240 and striking out a ton, drawing the boos of the hometown faithful. Let's be honest, SOMEONE has to be the scapegoat if the Reds don't make the playoffs this year. I hope it's not Stubbs (or anyone for that matter), but he's a pretty good candidate.

Roids. Its hard to judge how good of a player Cameron actually was because of his steroid suspension.

redsfandan
01-19-2011, 09:24 AM
What Mike Cameron accomplished in the majors through the age of 25:

Mike Cameron Batting Stats for Years 1995 to 1998
Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1995-1998 296 945 824 121 189 36 8 23 100 50 14 96 224 .229 .315 .376 .691 82


What Drew Stubbs accomplished in the majors through the age of 25:

Drew Stubbs Batting Stats for Years 2009 to 2010
Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
2009-2010 192 779 694 118 179 24 7 30 94 40 10 70 217 .258 .328 .442 .770 105


What Torii Hunter accomplished in the majors through the age of 25:

Torii Hunter Batting Stats for Years 1997 to 2001
Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1997-2001 389 1402 1301 178 343 64 14 41 173 23 16 75 271 .264 .310 .429 .739 87


What Reggie Sanders accomplished in the majors through the age of 25:

Reggie Sanders Batting Stats for Years 1991 to 1993
Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1991-1993 263 1041 921 158 248 42 10 33 122 44 18 99 225 .269 .343 .444 .787 113


What Eric Davis accomplished in the majors through the age of 25:

Eric Davis Batting Stats for Years 1984 to 1987
Year G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1984-1987 374 1380 1185 276 323 51 11 82 219 156 22 183 321 .273 .369 .542 .911 142

Stubbs has had a really good start to his career and just might end up being better than Cameron, Hunter, and Sanders when it's all over. Based on those stats it looks like it's possible to me. But, Davis was something special. As good as Stubbs is now, as good as we hope he'll become, we could only wish he was another Eric Davis.

cincrazy
01-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Roids. Its hard to judge how good of a player Cameron actually was because of his steroid suspension.

I'm not talking about his steroid usage, I'm talking about his body of work, his stat line. If Stubbs can produce that, I'm happy. It's not an argument of how good Cameron may or may not have been without steroids, but rather how good Stubbs can be. I think he can be very good. And IMO, Mike Cameron was a very good major leaguer. Roids or no.

icehole3
01-19-2011, 10:54 AM
Stubbs has had a really good start to his career and just might end up being better than Cameron, Hunter, and Sanders when it's all over. Based on those stats it looks like it's possible to me. But, Davis was something special. As good as Stubbs is now, as good as we hope he'll become, we could only wish he was another Eric Davis.

thats what Im trying to say, IMO he's already at some of those guys and if he can get better he can reach Davis, Im trying to be positive about his career, some posters think he'll never get any better, Im sure they dont say those things about Bruce, thanks for making my point more clear

TRF
01-19-2011, 01:06 PM
I'd be pretty happy if he turns into Reggie Sanders, the last Red compared to Eric Davis.

Hoosier Red
01-19-2011, 04:19 PM
thats what Im trying to say, IMO he's already at some of those guys and if he can get better he can reach Davis, Im trying to be positive about his career, some posters think he'll never get any better, Im sure they dont say those things about Bruce, thanks for making my point more clear

I think you're taking the other posters critique too hard. No one is saying that Stubbs can't get better, or that this is all we can expect, but rather pointing out that it's rare for a player to get significantly better once they hit their late 20's. That's sort of the peak of production for most non steroid using players. That doesn't mean that he's now 26, he'll flame out in two or three years, it simply means that he's not likely to be a lot better than what he is right now.

And to reach Eric David level production, he'd have to get a lot better.


I agree with those who see Reggie Sanders as the best offensive comp. In my opinion Reggie Sanders offense with gold glove center field defense is a pretty fantastic player.

redsfandan
01-20-2011, 06:01 AM
thats what Im trying to say, IMO he's already at some of those guys and if he can get better he can reach Davis, Im trying to be positive about his career, some posters think he'll never get any better, Im sure they dont say those things about Bruce, thanks for making my point more clear

Except that's not what I said. Stubbs becoming another Cameron, Hunter, or Sanders is one thing. And, sure, he could end up better than them. But, I don't think anyone should get their hopes up that he'll be another Davis. I just don't think that'll happen.

icehole3
01-20-2011, 06:50 AM
Except that's not what I said. Stubbs becoming another Cameron, Hunter, or Sanders is one thing. And, sure, he could end up better than them. But, I don't think anyone should get their hopes up that he'll be another Davis. I just don't think that'll happen.

so youre backing off what you said, you said that he can become better than them not just like them, no faith, it's OK

jojo
01-20-2011, 07:27 AM
these Mike Cameron arguments are the same arguments that were used when guys had no faith in Stubbs ability and were labeling him a bust while he was in the minors and posters were upset that the Reds drafted him instead of Lincecum, right now to compare him to Cameron is to say he cant improve and he'll stay where he is at in his career and never get better, well we know he can get better because he has and unless a horrible event occurs he should continue to improve. Looking at the stats he's not to far from Davis, I didnt compare him to WIllie Mays, those Mays numbers are Hall of Fame numbers, I compare him to Davis because he can reach those numbers with a little more improvement, look at Stubbs numbers and then look at Davis' numbers again, he can get there, if you want to be fair to Stubbs. Calling him Cameron means he's gonna regress

Comparing Stubbs to Mike Cameron is high praise. Lets hope Stubbs becomes Mike Cameron.

redsfandan
01-20-2011, 07:39 AM
so youre backing off what you said, you said that he can become better than them not just like them, no faith, it's OK

What the heck are you reading? In both posts I said that, Imo, Stubbs could be better than all of them except Davis. I tried to rephrase it in my 2nd post cuz apparently it wasn't clear enough. But, I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

YES, I think Stubbs can be as good OR better than Cameron, Hunter, and Sanders.

NO, I don't think he'll be as good as Davis.

icehole3
01-20-2011, 08:28 AM
What the heck are you reading? In both posts I said that, Imo, Stubbs could be better than all of them except Davis. I tried to rephrase it in my 2nd post cuz apparently it wasn't clear enough. But, I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

YES, I think Stubbs can be as good OR better than Cameron, Hunter, and Sanders.

NO, I don't think he'll be as good as Davis.

I said what you said too and youre then posting thats not what you said, are you saying it or not, see now Im really confused forget it

redsfandan
01-20-2011, 08:36 AM
I said what you said too and youre then posting thats not what you said, are you saying it or not, see now Im really confused forget it
What I highlighted in bold is the part that I disagreed with you about:

thats what Im trying to say, IMO he's already at some of those guys and if he can get better he can reach Davis, Im trying to be positive about his career, some posters think he'll never get any better, Im sure they dont say those things about Bruce, thanks for making my point more clear

TRF
01-20-2011, 09:21 AM
Davis was a freak of nature. Drew Stubbs is no Eric Davis. Davis was faster and a better base stealer. Davis had more power, a lightning whip of a bat. Davis could take a walk, and as good a defender as Stubbs is, Davis was much better. The only thing that kept Davis from reaching those Mays comparisons was health. The lacerated kidney in the WS was just one of his many health problems.

Reggie Sanders, the heir apparent to Eric Davis had a very good career. Excellent defender, good power, could steal a base. I'll take that from Stubbs.

Scrap Irony
01-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Davis was not faster than Drew Stubbs.

Everything else is spot on.

No way Stubbs becomes ED. IF he approaches Reggie's numbers, he's been a great player for the Reds.

If he hits Cameron, he's been a phenomenal choice as a draft pick, despite who was picked behind him.

camisadelgolf
01-20-2011, 11:04 AM
Davis was not faster than Drew Stubbs.

Everything else is spot on.

No way Stubbs becomes ED. IF he approaches Reggie's numbers, he's been a great player for the Reds.

If he hits Cameron, he's been a phenomenal choice as a draft pick, despite who was picked behind him.
Oh, you mean that guy whose fastball has declined noticeably over the past few years? Based mostly on Lincecum, many people have already called Stubbs a bust. Five years from now, it wouldn't shock me at all to see that Stubbs is thriving with Lincecum struggling to stay on a roster. I'm not necessarily predicting that, but it really wouldn't be a surprise at all.

dfs
01-20-2011, 11:08 AM
The only thing that kept Davis from reaching those Mays comparisons was health.

That and that little thing called batting average. Davis' best years would have been a down year for Willie at the same age and the difference was batting average. Davis peaked at 293. Willie was regularly around 320.


The only thing that kept Davis from reaching those Mays comparisons was health. The lacerated kidney in the WS was just one of his many health problems.
Davis had trouble staying in the lineup long before that injury.
Of course the cancer didn't help.

Davis is one of my favorite players (As is Stubbs) but I think it's important to recognize where they stand talent wise, not just where I wish they stood.

If Stubbs is to Davis as Davis was to Mays, we'll still have a darned good player in centerfield for the next 4 years.

Redsfan320
01-20-2011, 11:09 AM
MODS: Please edit THREAD TITLE so that it reads "Is Drew Stubbs the next Eric Davis?" THANKS

'twould be far more accurate considering where the thread has gone.

320

TRF
01-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Oh, you mean that guy whose fastball has declined noticeably over the past few years? Based mostly on Lincecum, many people have already called Stubbs a bust. Five years from now, it wouldn't shock me at all to see that Stubbs is thriving with Lincecum struggling to stay on a roster. I'm not necessarily predicting that, but it really wouldn't be a surprise at all.

Are you talking about the guy that has won 2 Cy young awards and has a WS ring? That guy?

Stubbs would have to win 2 MVP awards and a WS ring to compare. Lincecum is about 4 months older and has done all that. He's had a whole career of success packed in just under 4 seasons.

Is it an unfair comparison? maybe. And maybe he will be struggling 5 years from now. And Stubbs would have to see a monster spike in his numbers to achieve the success Lincecum has.

bucksfan2
01-20-2011, 02:43 PM
Are you talking about the guy that has won 2 Cy young awards and has a WS ring? That guy?

Stubbs would have to win 2 MVP awards and a WS ring to compare. Lincecum is about 4 months older and has done all that. He's had a whole career of success packed in just under 4 seasons.

Is it an unfair comparison? maybe. And maybe he will be struggling 5 years from now. And Stubbs would have to see a monster spike in his numbers to achieve the success Lincecum has.

IMO its unfortunate that Stubbs and Lincecum are still being brought up in the same conversation today. Anytime a team can take a draft pick and turn them into a bonified MLB starter its a good thing. It appears as if the Reds have found their answer to the CF for the next 5 years. It is very difficult to be upset with that draft pick.

TRF
01-20-2011, 02:54 PM
IMO its unfortunate that Stubbs and Lincecum are still being brought up in the same conversation today. Anytime a team can take a draft pick and turn them into a bonified MLB starter its a good thing. It appears as if the Reds have found their answer to the CF for the next 5 years. It is very difficult to be upset with that draft pick.

I didn't bring him up. I get credited with it a lot, but that argument of Lincecum and a declining fastball is kinda lame.

camisadelgolf
01-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Are you talking about the guy that has won 2 Cy young awards and has a WS ring? That guy?

Stubbs would have to win 2 MVP awards and a WS ring to compare. Lincecum is about 4 months older and has done all that. He's had a whole career of success packed in just under 4 seasons.

Is it an unfair comparison? maybe. And maybe he will be struggling 5 years from now. And Stubbs would have to see a monster spike in his numbers to achieve the success Lincecum has.
Maybe? Dave Stieb, who had 53 WAR in his career, never won a Cy Young nor a World Series. On the other hand, Mark Davis and his 6.6 career WAR won a Cy Young, so I guess that means he had a better career than Stieb did.

Listen, I'm not trying to take anything away from Lincecum. What he has done is amazing. And if he continues with production anywhere near what he's done, he's a sure-fire Hall of Famer. But as we know, those are few and far between. When the wheels fall off for a pitcher, they tend to fall off completely (see: Dontrelle Willis). If Stubbs can maintain reasonable contact, there's no reason to think he won't be a very good player for several years to come. Granted, he will almost definitely never have a prime as good as Lincecum's, but if trends continue the way they have the past couple years--and I'm not saying they will--we'll be talking about how the Reds were much better off for having drafted Stubbs over Lincecum.

dfs
01-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Oh, you mean that guy whose fastball has declined noticeably over the past few years? Based mostly on Lincecum, many people have already called Stubbs a bust. Five years from now, it wouldn't shock me at all to see that Stubbs is thriving with Lincecum struggling to stay on a roster. I'm not necessarily predicting that, but it really wouldn't be a surprise at all.

Dontrelle Willis once ruled the world too.

Funny things happen.

camisadelgolf
01-20-2011, 02:59 PM
Dontrelle Willis once ruled the world too.

Funny things happen.
That's eerie. You posted that within seconds of my mention of Willis above.

Blitz Dorsey
01-20-2011, 04:26 PM
There is no way Stubbs is going to be anywhere near as good as Eric Davis or Carlos Gonzalez IMO. Not even close. I would love to be wrong.

icehole3
01-21-2011, 03:40 AM
here we go

The Operator
01-21-2011, 05:32 AM
Oh, you mean that guy whose fastball has declined noticeably over the past few years? His velocity has decreased, but that didn't stop him from dominating this year's postseason. Lincecum's delivery is so deceptive that he can probably get away with losing some velocity. It's definitely something for The Giants to keep an eye on, but it appears that he worked through his slump and has made due just fine with the loss of mph.

That being said, I'm a big Stubbs supporter. He's who The Reds drafted, he's got big talent and he's really putting it together.

jojo
01-21-2011, 05:54 AM
If the Reds would've had Lincecum last year, they wouldve won their division....
:cool:

bucksfan2
01-21-2011, 08:34 AM
There is no way Stubbs is going to be anywhere near as good as Eric Davis or Carlos Gonzalez IMO. Not even close. I would love to be wrong.

Stubbs may never approach the potential that Davis had, but............

During the prime of Davis career he never was able to stay healthy enough to play more than 135 games. He rounded out a very nice career after a one year hiatus with good seasons in Cincy and Baltimore but again he was unable to stay healthy enough to play more than 135 games.

This is not meant to take Davis to task. He was a great talent who had stretches of being one of the best in the game. Unfortunately for him injuries hurt his career and in reality those injuries are an issue. I don't think Stubbs will ever approach the the torrid stretches that Davis went on, but he may be a more durable player and have better longevity.

icehole3
01-21-2011, 09:56 AM
Stubbs may never approach the potential that Davis had, but............

During the prime of Davis career he never was able to stay healthy enough to play more than 135 games. He rounded out a very nice career after a one year hiatus with good seasons in Cincy and Baltimore but again he was unable to stay healthy enough to play more than 135 games.

This is not meant to take Davis to task. He was a great talent who had stretches of being one of the best in the game. Unfortunately for him injuries hurt his career and in reality those injuries are an issue. I don't think Stubbs will ever approach the the torrid stretches that Davis went on, but he may be a more durable player and have better longevity.

well said, if you take all the emotion out of it and if you look hard at Davis' numbers he had 3 seasons where he was really really good, and a few more very good years and thats about it, he never hit for avg as good as Cargo, but his other numbers were up there, now Stubbs if he plays like Aug-Sept Stubbs could reach those heights

Blitz Dorsey
01-21-2011, 01:03 PM
well said, if you take all the emotion out of it and if you look hard at Davis' numbers he had 3 seasons where he was really really good, and a few more very good years and thats about it, he never hit for avg as good as Cargo, but his other numbers were up there, now Stubbs if he plays like Aug-Sept Stubbs could reach those heights

If you take the emotion out of it, you would realize comparing Stubbs to one of the best players to ever play for the Reds (Davis) and one of the top players currently playing in MLB (Gonzalez) is extremely optimistic to be kind. Say what you want about Davis, he was a superstar when healthy. He had a gift from God in terms of his quick wrists, which allowed him to be a good/great hitter despite some flaws in his stance and approach. Stubbs, on the other hand, has terrible mechanics at the plate and doesn't have the bat speed of ED. Again, I would love to be wrong, but Stubbs will never approach the greatness of ED.

If you were a fan of any team but the Reds, would you really think Drew Stubbs might have a chance to be as good as Carlos Gonzalez? Let's take the emotion out of it for a second and really analyze it. Don't forget Stubbs' minor league numbers were nothing to write home about (or even e-mail home about). That said, I hope Drew Stubbs goes on to be a NL MVP and Hall of Famer. I just don't see it though. He needs to fix some serious flaws in his swing. Plus, he's not as good of a CF as Eric Davis -- it's not even close. Stubbs has problems almost every time there is a ball near the wall. Davis excelled in those defensive situations. Ah, ED was a great defensive outfielder in addition to his accomplishments at the plate.

Homer Bailey
01-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Stubbs has problems almost every time there is a ball near the wall.

Just not true.

icehole3
01-21-2011, 04:17 PM
If you take the emotion out of it, you would realize comparing Stubbs to one of the best players to ever play for the Reds (Davis) and one of the top players currently playing in MLB (Gonzalez) is extremely optimistic to be kind. Say what you want about Davis, he was a superstar when healthy. He had a gift from God in terms of his quick wrists, which allowed him to be a good/great hitter despite some flaws in his stance and approach. Stubbs, on the other hand, has terrible mechanics at the plate and doesn't have the bat speed of ED. Again, I would love to be wrong, but Stubbs will never approach the greatness of ED.

If you were a fan of any team but the Reds, would you really think Drew Stubbs might have a chance to be as good as Carlos Gonzalez? Let's take the emotion out of it for a second and really analyze it. Don't forget Stubbs' minor league numbers were nothing to write home about (or even e-mail home about). That said, I hope Drew Stubbs goes on to be a NL MVP and Hall of Famer. I just don't see it though. He needs to fix some serious flaws in his swing. Plus, he's not as good of a CF as Eric Davis -- it's not even close. Stubbs has problems almost every time there is a ball near the wall. Davis excelled in those defensive situations. Ah, ED was a great defensive outfielder in addition to his accomplishments at the plate.

I didnt write the article so its more than what I think about Stubbs, its some baseball writer speaking highly of the kid, maybe he has fixed some of his flaws, I mentioned the Aug/Sept Stubbs not the pre-allstar game Stubbs. I like the kid you dont we'll never agree, I get it

redsfandan
01-21-2011, 06:08 PM
I didnt write the article so its more than what I think about Stubbs, its some baseball writer speaking highly of the kid, maybe he has fixed some of his flaws, I mentioned the Aug/Sept Stubbs not the pre-allstar game Stubbs. I like the kid you dont we'll never agree, I get it
I think it's unrealistic to expect that Stubbs. I think he can improve but not THAT much.

OnBaseMachine
01-22-2011, 12:24 PM
I think it's probably unfair to compare Stubbs (or anyone) to Eric Davis because ED was a Hall of Fame talent, and if not for injuries he would probably be in Cooperstown. Reggie Sanders and Mike Cameron are more favorable comparisons, IMO. Reggie was mostly a right fielder (1165 G in RF, 385 in LF, and 210 in CF) but offensively, they have similar skill sets. Both have great speed, above average power, the ability to draw a walk, and the propensity to strike out a lot. I'm a fan of the Cameron comparisons though - Cameron's career triple slash line of .250/.340/.447 - .787 is in line with what I think Stubbs will be. Like Cameron, I think we'll see Stubbs put up some 25-30 HR, .825ish OPS seasons and make a few All-Star teams and be generally underrated like Cameron has been (and Reggie too).

Mario-Rijo
01-22-2011, 07:44 PM
A couple of things. The thread asks the question, can Stubbs be the next CarGo? I think Stubbs is already more valuable than CarGo would be to most teams outside of Coors. Perhaps that is a bit premature to suggest but until I see CarGo do something significant outside of Coors then I won't think nearly as much of him as his overall numbers would suggest I should.

Second as for comparing him to E.D. well again it's just too soon. He does have some similarities. He has 50 stolen base capabilities, he has 30 HR capabilities, does he have .275/.280 bat consistently thru his prime years to supplement his ability to draw a walk? Will his lack of skill to consistently make contact hurt his ability to hit for power? When you hit .250 with 22 HR's you are closer to Mike Cameron even if you have the ability to hit 30 HR's. Incidentally Mike Cameron had the pop to hit 30 as well but rarely did because he couldn't make consistent contact.

The difference, E.D. had 40 HR ability, 80 Stolen base ability, hit .270 & .850ish OPS consistently. Cameron hit .250, 40 stolen base ability, 30 HR ability and OPS .780ish. It won't get alot of traction here but that .20 difference in BA is a big deal along with a slightly more than subtle difference in power and speed. Stubbs IMO is alot more like Cameron (bat wise) with the possible exception of Stolen Bases where I think Stubbs is more like E.D. but again ya gotta get on base (hitting and walking) more to prove it.

Ron Madden
01-29-2011, 06:36 AM
From Hal McCoy FSO.

http://www.foxsportsohio.com/01/28/11/Reds-find-huge-potential-in-Drew-Stubbs/landing_reds.html?blockID=399571&feedID=3800

WebScorpion
01-29-2011, 01:41 PM
I think Drew Stubbs will develop into Drew Stubbs. :D He's got a unique blend of speed and power, but he'll never have the batting eye, quick hands, or all out heart of Eric Davis or Rickey Henderson. I don't see him ever being a top tier leadoff hitter...he may develop into a passable leadoff, but never elite. He will be a massively important cog in the New Red Machine though. Batting 6th or 7th and running down every fly ball in the center of the outfield, he can be a serious force. I'm not too worried about who he will be like, I'm just enjoying watching him develop into the best Drew Stubbs he can be. I really love to watch him run the bases...if we could get Joe Morgan or Barry Larkin to teach him to read pitchers he could be devastating. :thumbup:

Mario-Rijo
01-30-2011, 08:33 AM
I think Drew Stubbs will develop into Drew Stubbs. :D He's got a unique blend of speed and power, but he'll never have the batting eye, quick hands, or all out heart of Eric Davis or Rickey Henderson. I don't see him ever being a top tier leadoff hitter...he may develop into a passable leadoff, but never elite. He will be a massively important cog in the New Red Machine though. Batting 6th or 7th and running down every fly ball in the center of the outfield, he can be a serious force. I'm not too worried about who he will be like, I'm just enjoying watching him develop into the best Drew Stubbs he can be. I really love to watch him run the bases...if we could get Joe Morgan or Barry Larkin to teach him to read pitchers he could be devastating. :thumbup:

If he continues to have seasons (at the plate) like last year he is fine by me.

There was a time I would have let the strikeouts bother me and if he didn't have much else going for him it still would but he is plenty good enough in many ways to be an asset. However I do not like to give up on a guy improving his ability, I am never ok with "he is what he is". Just yesterday I seen a piece about Jeter re-tooling his swing after an abysmal season last year, good players are always working to improve or adapt. As long as it's obvious that he stays working on all his warts as best he can and remains an asset I would love for him to stay a Red for good. One thing he needs to work on is taking flyballs/linedrives near the wall and if he clears up that fear a little his glove will be as complete and good as anyone in baseball. Then all he has to work on (if he can improve it at all, not sure) is tweaking his offense a bit here and there. If he improves the former I will give him the benefit of the doubt on improving the latter.

WVRedsFan
01-30-2011, 07:33 PM
In ED's best season, 1987, he struck out 134 times in 129 games.

If Stubbs can put up a 991 OPS, I could care less how much he K's.+1

An out is an out.