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View Full Version : Vernon Wells Traded to Angels for Mike Napoli



TheNext44
01-21-2011, 06:34 PM
WOW! Never saw that coming.
http://mobile.twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/28592137373224961

UKFlounder
01-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Well, the Angels found a way to spend some money after losing out on Crawford and Beltre.

reds44
01-21-2011, 07:12 PM
Wow is right.

reds1869
01-21-2011, 07:21 PM
:eek:

What a crazy, out of the blue deal.

blumj
01-21-2011, 07:41 PM
Apparently it's Wells and cash for Napoli and Juan Rivera. I'm guessing it's a rather large amount of cash.

OnBaseMachine
01-21-2011, 07:43 PM
I thought this was pretty funny.

Love how the Wells trade includes a Napoli physical, as if Jays would walk away. Doctor: "He has no legs." Jays: "Yeah, we're OK with that."

http://twitter.com/DownGoesBrown

blumj
01-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Halos Heaven showing 1202 comments.

Now 1304.

kaldaniels
01-22-2011, 12:39 AM
Just sayin', but don't underestimate the possible impact the Jays ridding themselves of a 86 MM could have on the Reds franchise over the next 3 years.

Tom Servo
01-22-2011, 12:40 AM
Are the Angels on Angel Dust?

reds44
01-22-2011, 12:41 AM
If Votto were to bail for Canada, I would hate him forever*. I'm just going to come out and say it right now.

*Unless he wins a World Series on his way out. In which case hate would be a strong word. I don't think there's anyway we would allow him to walk if we win a World Series, though.

Razor Shines
01-22-2011, 12:56 AM
Just sayin', but don't underestimate the possible impact the Jays ridding themselves of a 86 MM could have on the Reds franchise over the next 3 years.

Also my first thought.

edabbs44
01-22-2011, 01:19 AM
Just sayin', but don't underestimate the possible impact the Jays ridding themselves of a 86 MM could have on the Reds franchise over the next 3 years.

Good point, I mentioned the Wells/Votto relationship in another thread and this only feeds more.

lollipopcurve
01-22-2011, 08:00 AM
If Votto were to bail for Canada, I would hate him forever*. I'm just going to come out and say it right now.

Come on. His dad died, leaving his mom alone with 3 (2?) young siblings. If he were to feel he needs to get back to support his family, most folks would find that commendable.


don't underestimate the possible impact the Jays ridding themselves of a 86 MM could have on the Reds franchise over the next 3 years.

Definitely gives rise to legitimate speculation.

TheNext44
01-22-2011, 12:01 PM
Just sayin', but don't underestimate the possible impact the Jays ridding themselves of a 86 MM could have on the Reds franchise over the next 3 years.

Wells' contract ends after 2014, which means there would be only one year in which the Jays would have had to deal with him and a Votto contract. Surely, if they want Votto then, and still had Wells, they could have worked something out.

If anything, this just shows that the Jays don't feel like they can compete with a big, long term, $20M+ contract on the books.

kaldaniels
01-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Wells' contract ends after 2014, which means there would be only one year in which the Jays would have had to deal with him and a Votto contract. Surely, if they want Votto then, and still had Wells, they could have worked something out.

If anything, this just shows that the Jays don't feel like they can compete with a big, long term, $20M+ contract on the books.

How soon we forget negotiating windows for LTC vis a vis midseason trades.

Razor Shines
01-22-2011, 12:48 PM
Wells' contract ends after 2014, which means there would be only one year in which the Jays would have had to deal with him and a Votto contract. Surely, if they want Votto then, and still had Wells, they could have worked something out.

If anything, this just shows that the Jays don't feel like they can compete with a big, long term, $20M+ contract on the books.

Or maybe just not one with a guy who is a .800 - .850 opser.

kaldaniels
01-22-2011, 12:52 PM
Simple point is...it just became a heck of a lot feasable for the Jays to make a run at Votto should they choose.

PuffyPig
01-22-2011, 01:36 PM
Simple point is...it just became a heck of a lot feasable for the Jays to make a run at Votto should they choose.

Wells would haev had only one more year left on his contract when Votto's was done.

TheNext44
01-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Or maybe just not one with a guy who is a .800 - .850 opser.

Precisely.

But it should be noted that when Wells signed his contract, he was probably a better candidate for a long term $20M+ a season contract than Votto will be when his current contract is up in 2014.

Again, the question is not whether a team like the Reds can afford a $20M+ a season player, but is Votto that player.

redsfandan
01-22-2011, 04:41 PM
Precisely.

But it should be noted that when Wells signed his contract, he was probably a better candidate for a long term $20M+ a season contract than Votto will be when his current contract is up in 2014.

Again, the question is not whether a team like the Reds can afford a $20M+ a season player, but is Votto that player.

That's an opinion that you and some others share. And it's also an opinion that I, and some others, don't share. We can just leave it at that.

traderumor
01-22-2011, 06:30 PM
I'm sure the Jays are doing all their planning around taking a run at Joey Votto in 2014. :rolleyes:

kaldaniels
01-22-2011, 08:15 PM
I'm sure the Jays are doing all their planning around taking a run at Joey Votto in 2014. :rolleyes:

No one EVER said that is the reason why this move was made. Simply acknowledging an (possible) unintended consequence of this deal.

Is that worthy of an eyeroll back...nah, I'll pass.

traderumor
01-22-2011, 08:23 PM
No one EVER said that is the reason why this move was made. Simply acknowledging an (possible) unintended consequence of this deal.

Is that worthy of an eyeroll back...nah, I'll pass.Sort of like trying to call a puzzle connect the dots with only one dot. I'll pass on such idle speculation, I guess.

kaldaniels
01-22-2011, 08:30 PM
Sort of like trying to call a puzzle connect the dots with only one dot. I'll pass on such idle speculation, I guess.

Is there a metaphor out there for someone jumping into a thread and completely misrepresenting what has been said, with an eyeroll to boot?

Red in Chicago
01-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Time to move on boys. You're ruining the thread.

Spitball
01-22-2011, 11:39 PM
I thought this was pretty funny.

Love how the Wells trade includes a Napoli physical, as if Jays would walk away. Doctor: "He has no legs." Jays: "Yeah, we're OK with that."


Right! Pretty dang funny! :laugh:

traderumor
01-23-2011, 08:27 AM
Is there a metaphor out there for someone jumping into a thread and completely misrepresenting what has been said, with an eyeroll to boot?I don't think it misrepresents what you are trying to say at all, which is that three years down the road, this trade may open the door for the Jays to make a play for Votto in FA. If I read that as a Jays fan, I'd say, "gee, thanks for the hope. We might make a play for a guy who may or may not be a star in three years, so no Vernon Wells now is a good thing."

Also, I'd say that making any connection at all is inaccurate. That trade was made as a baseball move today and has absolutely nothing to do with Joey Votto happening to be from Toronto originally. It's not good logic to even try to make the connection.

I apologize for the eyeroll and I'm sorry that offended you, it could have been said with less sarcasm, but I will stand by my reason for posting. And mods, that is why I am responding, that will be my final word on this line of discussion.

Mario-Rijo
01-23-2011, 08:32 AM
It should give them plenty of room to potentially throw away some dough on Jose Bautista in the future.

blumj
01-23-2011, 09:16 AM
The next time someone says, "we should trade X," and someone else says, "we can't trade X, nobody would want X," the first person just has to say, "Vernon Wells". Millions of message board arguments ended just like that.

Jpup
01-23-2011, 09:31 AM
The next time someone says, "we should trade X," and someone else says, "we can't trade X, nobody would want X," the first person just has to say, "Vernon Wells". Millions of message board arguments ended just like that.

Did the guy not hit 30 plus homers last year? Yes, he's overpaid, but he's still a pretty good player.

mth123
01-23-2011, 11:11 AM
Did the guy not hit 30 plus homers last year? Yes, he's overpaid, but he's still a pretty good player.

Agreed. It surely makes the Angels more expensive, but they dealt away two guys that they really weren't wanting to play anyway and got a 30 HR bat for the middle of the order and improved the defense in one of the OF corners. Wells is not a plus defender in CF anymore, but he's a far better defensive choice as a corner OF than Juan Rivera or Bobby Abreu. The Angels had the money burning a hole in their pocket after not being able to sign anybody this off-season, so at least for 2011, this deal works for them (and added about $11 Million to the payroll which is probably less than if they had made a big signing). This deal may look awful in 2013 or so, but some of the things I've read about it killing their chances immediately just aren't true. As a matter of fact, I'd say they should be the favorite in the AL West in 2011 at this point unless Texas can add a TOR starter.

camisadelgolf
01-23-2011, 12:43 PM
The next time someone says, "we should trade X," and someone else says, "we can't trade X, nobody would want X," the first person just has to say, "Vernon Wells". Millions of message board arguments ended just like that.
Do you think the Angels would have any interest in Cordero?

TheNext44
01-23-2011, 03:34 PM
Agreed. It surely makes the Angels more expensive, but they dealt away two guys that they really weren't wanting to play anyway and got a 30 HR bat for the middle of the order and improved the defense in one of the OF corners. Wells is not a plus defender in CF anymore, but he's a far better defensive choice as a corner OF than Juan Rivera or Bobby Abreu. The Angels had the money burning a hole in their pocket after not being able to sign anybody this off-season, so at least for 2011, this deal works for them (and added about $11 Million to the payroll which is probably less than if they had made a big signing). This deal may look awful in 2013 or so, but some of the things I've read about it killing their chances immediately just aren't true. As a matter of fact, I'd say they should be the favorite in the AL West in 2011 at this point unless Texas can add a TOR starter.

excellent point.

While contracts and payroll are important, they only really matter if they affect your ability to acquire players you need. Considering that that Angels were not been to acquire what they need up to this point, I don't see how acquiring Wells and his contract hurts them this season. I don't know what their obligations are in 2014, but they have time and a big enough payroll to work things out.

PuffyPig
01-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Did the guy not hit 30 plus homers last year? Yes, he's overpaid, but he's still a pretty good player.

Over the last 4 years his OPS is 776, with an OPS+ of 105.

With an average WAR of 1.9.

He just had his best season in his last 4, his 3rd best ever, and at the age of 32 it may well be all downhill from here.

His most similiar comparison player is Aubrey Huff.

That's a lot for $85M for the next 4 years.

jojo
01-23-2011, 07:18 PM
Simple point is...it just became a heck of a lot feasable for the Jays to make a run at Votto should they choose.

Maybe it's bad news for Cincy but wouldn't this make cards fans even more nervous?

Ron Madden
01-23-2011, 07:27 PM
I'm not sure if it means anything or not but Votto lives in Florida now doesn't he?

TheNext44
01-23-2011, 08:25 PM
Over the last 4 years his OPS is 776, with an OPS+ of 105.

With an average WAR of 1.9.

He just had his best season in his last 4, his 3rd best ever, and at the age of 32 it may well be all downhill from here.

His most similiar comparison player is Aubrey Huff.

That's a lot for $85M for the next 4 years.

He suffered a wrist and then a hamstring injury in 08 and 09. When he's healthy, he's around a .850 OPS, 4 win player. Age is a factor, as is injury risk, but using his last three years as his baseline underestimates his talent
level.

jojo
01-23-2011, 08:36 PM
He suffered a wrist and then a hamstring injury in 08 and 09. When he's healthy, he's around a .850 OPS, 4 win player. Age is a factor, as is injury risk, but using his last three years as his baseline underestimates his talent
level.

He's unlikely to even be worth his contract in year one of Anaheim's control and it's very possible Napoli out produces Wells.

Very bad trade for the Angels. Great trade for their AL west rivals.

TheNext44
01-23-2011, 10:02 PM
He's unlikely to even be worth his contract in year one of Anaheim's control and it's very possible Napoli out produces Wells.

Very bad trade for the Angels. Great trade for their AL west rivals.

Napoli is a part time player with little defensive value. He's a nice platoon partner against lefites either at 1B or DH, and if in that role, he might be able to put up a similar OPS as Wells does playing above average LF everyday for the Angels. But I can't see a situation where Napoli proves more production for the Jays than Wells does for the Angels.

Most importantly, Napoli wasn't wanted in LA, and wasn't going to be used. Wells, on the other hand, fills a big need for the Angels.

I don't see it as a great trade, but I definitely don't see it as a very bad trade.

PuffyPig
01-23-2011, 10:18 PM
He suffered a wrist and then a hamstring injury in 08 and 09. When he's healthy, he's around a .850 OPS, 4 win player. Age is a factor, as is injury risk, but using his last three years as his baseline underestimates his talent
level.

I used his last 4 years.

He's been a 4 WAR twice in his career (3.4 next highest), has been at 2.5 or above three times in his 9 year career, so using that as a baseline is just plain inaccurate.

redsfandan
01-24-2011, 07:07 AM
Napoli is a part time player with little defensive value. He's a nice platoon partner against lefites either at 1B or DH, and if in that role, he might be able to put up a similar OPS as Wells does playing above average LF everyday for the Angels. But I can't see a situation where Napoli proves more production for the Jays than Wells does for the Angels.

Most importantly, Napoli wasn't wanted in LA, and wasn't going to be used. Wells, on the other hand, fills a big need for the Angels.

I don't see it as a great trade, but I definitely don't see it as a very bad trade.

Mike Scioscia, is that really you?

Scrap Irony
01-24-2011, 09:05 PM
Wells might receive a prety substantial LF bump, due to being so much better than other LF defensively. (I'm assuming he can play LF like he plays CF and that Hunter will shade to RF.)

IF he does that, he might get more than 4.0 WAR this season.

But I doubt he gets more than that. And he'll need to average that to make sense of the trade

Ick.

blumj
01-25-2011, 05:06 PM
And the Jays trade Napoli to the Rangers for Frank Francisco and cash.


http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=6058127

mth123
01-25-2011, 05:13 PM
And the Jays trade Napoli to the Rangers for Frank Francisco and cash.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=6058127

That seems like a good deal for both teams. The Jays had a glut at 1B/DH with Napoli, EdE and Adam Lind and really didn't need to pay Napoli $6 Million or so. The Rangers can probably use him as a 1B/DH. FRank Francisco is an arb case that Texas didn't really want back and now the Jays have him and can probably use him as a decent middle innings guy.

RedsManRick
01-25-2011, 05:26 PM
Neftali Feliz can get comfortable closing. Fransisco is a nice add for the Jays. Their bullpen is going to be real solid.