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Razor Shines
03-04-2011, 05:12 PM
I don't know if I agree that Palmer had, as it was put, the power to reign in the malcontents. As the quarterback, he's supposed to be the leader, but being a leader means the people who are supposed to follow you either (1) want to or (2) can be made to. The QB might run the huddle but he doesn't run the team; the only true power he has over a wide receiver is the decision to throw him the football, or not. Any other power depends on his willingness to write checks with his mouth in the name of leadership that the coach and GM will cash. With the Bengals, I'm not so sure that was the case.

I agree. Tom Brady could only reign in Moss for so long. I'm not sure Peyton Manning could reign in TO and Ocho at the same time. And obviously Carson doesn't have Brady or Manning's clout.

PickOff
03-04-2011, 05:17 PM
Majority of the blame should go to the guy who has been running this losing franchise for the last 20+ years.

The majority of the blame for the record of the franchise, yes.

The majority of the blame for Carson demanding a trade or retiring, no.

PickOff
03-04-2011, 05:25 PM
I don't know if I agree that Palmer had, as it was put, the power to reign in the malcontents. As the quarterback, he's supposed to be the leader, but being a leader means the people who are supposed to follow you either (1) want to or (2) can be made to. The QB might run the huddle but he doesn't run the team; the only true power he has over a wide receiver is the decision to throw him the football, or not. Any other power depends on his willingness to write checks with his mouth in the name of leadership that the coach and GM will cash. With the Bengals, I'm not so sure that was the case.

I agree he didn't seem to have that power, as Lewis gave Ocho too much rope and needed to do a better job of setting the tone. Nonetheless, Carson's innability to overcome this dynamic and decide to quit speaks more to his apparant lack of competitiveness, passion, and leadership than the state of Bengals management - however bad.

Hoosier Red
03-04-2011, 05:30 PM
A franchise quarterback has the responsibility to lead - a one year fill in or first or second year starter can be a role player. Do you think Carson said, before he signed the contract, "hey, by the way, I'm a role player not a leader, just so you know that". I don't buy it. Now, maybe he actually is a good "leader," I really don't know. But a leader, in my opinion, doesn't decide he would rather retire than play anymore. Boo hoo.

As far as blame for the team's record. That falls more on Brown and Lewis than Palmer.

Again, it's not his job to tell the ownership what he can or can't do. In a perfect world, they could tell the future and see that he's not necessarily the strong leader type and would offer him a salary that matched what he actually could do.
Maybe he thought he'd have the power to lead guys like Chad and TJ, again so long as he did his best to live up to his responsibilities, that's all you can ask.

Mike Brown(and to a lesser extent Lewis) put the value of what they expected contribution would be. Again, so long as he did everything he could to live up to his contract, it's all on them. Either a) He wasn't a good enough leader, or b) The other teammates weren't good enough followers, but I don't think anyone would suggest Palmer didn't do his very best to produce.

PickOff
03-04-2011, 05:40 PM
Again, it's not his job to tell the ownership what he can or can't do. In a perfect world, they could tell the future and see that he's not necessarily the strong leader type and would offer him a salary that matched what he actually could do.
Maybe he thought he'd have the power to lead guys like Chad and TJ, again so long as he did his best to live up to his responsibilities, that's all you can ask.

Mike Brown(and to a lesser extent Lewis) put the value of what they expected contribution would be. Again, so long as he did everything he could to live up to his contract, it's all on them. Either a) He wasn't a good enough leader, or b) The other teammates weren't good enough followers, but I don't think anyone would suggest Palmer didn't do his very best to produce.

He might of done his best, then again maybe not. The only person that knows that is Carson. It is not Carson's fault if he was not a good leader as long as he tried his best? I can go with that for when he played - but he certainly isn't trying his best now.

Roy Tucker
03-04-2011, 05:54 PM
The potential lockout makes this situation pretty odd in that no trades can happen.

But if the labor dispute gets solved in a timely fashion, I wonder how in the world the Bengals can think about going into the next season with Carson Palmer when he has made it hugely and abundantly clear he wants nothing to do with the Bengals? I mean, are they going to get a whip out and flog him onto the field? This is just a no-win situation for the Bengals.

The guy doesn't want to be here. Get him out and move on.

Orenda
03-04-2011, 07:29 PM
It's Carson Palmer's fault that when he looks in the mirror he sees himself, ochenta y cinco and TO?

These guy have contracts and are supposed to be professionals. Sure Palmer could have nudged the team along more vocally, but when an organization has a philosophy that it counts on the dependable people to reign in all the wild cards and loose cannons that it brings in by choice, it's starting in a hole to begin with.

Redhook
03-04-2011, 09:19 PM
Has Carson Palmer handled this situation correctly? That's debatable.

Has Mike Brown handled this situation correctly? That's debatable.

What's not debatable is how Mike Brown has provided a consistent atmosphere for losing and has not shown a single sign on trying to stop it. He's a disgrace to the NFL, his father, and the entire Cincinnati area.

Good for Palmer trying to get away from this stinking pile of wretched garbage, also known as the Cincinnati Bengals. I don't blame him one bit.

KoryMac5
03-04-2011, 10:21 PM
Has Carson Palmer handled this situation correctly? That's debatable.

Has Mike Brown handled this situation correctly? That's debatable.

What's not debatable is how Mike Brown has provided a consistent atmosphere for losing and has not shown a single sign on trying to stop it. He's a disgrace to the NFL, his father, and the entire Cincinnati area.

Good for Palmer trying to get away from this stinking pile of wretched garbage, also known as the Cincinnati Bengals. I don't blame him one bit.

Didn't Carson know what he was getting into when he signed that hefty contract extension. It's not like Mike Brown pulled the wool over his eyes. I think Carson was blinded by all those zeros on that big old check.

Topcat
03-05-2011, 03:47 AM
Didn't Carson know what he was getting into when he signed that hefty contract extension. It's not like Mike Brown pulled the wool over his eyes. I think Carson was blinded by all those zeros on that big old check.


Not to dismiss Carson but would he not have received as big a check elsewhere? I know most Bengals fans realize that Mike Brown runs a truly poor front office and scouting budget.

Redhook
03-05-2011, 08:35 AM
Didn't Carson know what he was getting into when he signed that hefty contract extension. It's not like Mike Brown pulled the wool over his eyes. I think Carson was blinded by all those zeros on that big old check.

He knew what he was doing. However, shouldn't people be able to change their mind from time to time, or be able to change jobs? He wants a change. Big deal. Brown should listen and explore trading him.

Redsfaithful
03-05-2011, 07:07 PM
Carson's made comments in the past (and so have other players) that he wanted to have more input into how the team is ran, that he had suggestions, and that nobody in the front office was interested in hearing them. I believe he said something along the lines that he's just an employee.

Then again I know he lobbied for TO and got his wish (and Reggie Kelly ... but not Housh).

I'm not sure Mike Brown is interested in players having any input into the way things are run (historically he's barely let the coaches have input), and that hurts the leadership ability of anyone on the team.

traderumor
03-06-2011, 09:10 PM
Carson's made comments in the past (and so have other players) that he wanted to have more input into how the team is ran, that he had suggestions, and that nobody in the front office was interested in hearing them. I believe he said something along the lines that he's just an employee.

Then again I know he lobbied for TO and got his wish (and Reggie Kelly ... but not Housh).

I'm not sure Mike Brown is interested in players having any input into the way things are run (historically he's barely let the coaches have input), and that hurts the leadership ability of anyone on the team.With all due respect, a player having "input into how the team is ran" is a recipe for disaster. Any solid organization has clear lines of authority, and players need to focus their attention on "production." Any player may have valuable input, and Brown may not have a solid organizational structure overall, but having players who have the ear of administration is going to weaken the entire organization.

Sea Ray
03-07-2011, 12:49 PM
Mike Brown is a terrible owner. We all know that but Carson has been part of the problem too. If he was not a leader then he lacked a key skill NFL teams look for in their QB. We especially hear that this time of year as they evaluate QB prospects. Simply put, if Carson didn't have it in him to be a leader then he was a lesser QB because of it

Hoosier Red
03-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Not to dismiss Carson but would he not have received as big a check elsewhere? I know most Bengals fans realize that Mike Brown runs a truly poor front office and scouting budget.

The thing that gets to me is Carson's not necessarily wanting to change that arrangement. He doesn't want to get paid for not working, he either wants to get paid by a different team, or he wants to not get paid and not work.

No matter what he thought when he signed it, he's changed his mind now. He has the leverage necessary to retire if he wishes.

texasdave
03-07-2011, 01:42 PM
He knew what he was doing. However, shouldn't people be able to change their mind from time to time, or be able to change jobs? He wants a change. Big deal. Brown should listen and explore trading him.

Sounds like a pretty good argument for non-guaranteed contracts, IMO.

KoryMac5
03-07-2011, 09:27 PM
If he retires I wonder how much of that signing bonus he will have to pay back. I am sure we will know what Mike Brown plans to do come April when the pick is announced.

Yachtzee
03-07-2011, 11:52 PM
If he retires I wonder how much of that signing bonus he will have to pay back. I am sure we will know what Mike Brown plans to do come April when the pick is announced.

I don't know if he would have to pay any of it back.

Sea Ray
03-08-2011, 10:38 AM
If he retires I wonder how much of that signing bonus he will have to pay back. I am sure we will know what Mike Brown plans to do come April when the pick is announced.

I've read that he won't have to pay any of it back. He's already played enough years of the contract to pay it off

Mario-Rijo
03-08-2011, 03:50 PM
I've read that he won't have to pay any of it back. He's already played enough years of the contract to pay it off

According to Mike Lombardi of the NFL network he wouldn't have to pay anything back under the current CBA (see Ashley Lelie as Lombardi referenced) however it remains to be seen if under the new CBA he would have to pay back any portion. This could be an issue on the table after Mike Vicks situation with the Falcons amongst a couple of other players including Lelie.

Just a tidbit from a piece in 2007:

So for all the concerns that changes to the league's collective bargaining agreement and a questionable ruling in an arbitration case involving Ashley Lelie might retard the pace of bargaining and force an inordinate amount of holdouts in the first round, that has hardly been the case.


In April, an arbitrator ruled that Lelie had to pay the Denver Broncos about $600,000 in prorated signing bonus money from his original contract, in the wake of his dispute with Denver that led to his trade to Atlanta in 2006. The Broncos were also looking to recoup part of his option bonus, but the ruling stipulated that teams could not recover such option bonuses, even if a player defaulted on his contract.

ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2957235)

Not much more in that piece. But the following piece has some fine pieces of info.


DENVER (AP) — The Denver Broncos must pay $220,000 to former receiver Ashley Lelie as part of their dispute over his ugly departure to Atlanta, The Denver Post reported Friday on its website.

The newspaper said an arbitrator has ruled in favor of Lelie in his grievance against the team. Broncos officials declined comment at practice and Lelie's agent, Peter Schaffer, did not immediately return a message left by The Associated Press.

Lelie, who led the league in yards per catch the last two seasons, skipped the Broncos' offseason workout program, forgoing a $100,000 bonus. He said he wanted out of Denver because the Broncos were misusing him and weren't giving him the chance to be the featured pass-catcher with Rod Smith and Javon Walker on the roster.

At the time, Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said Lelie had agreed to pay Denver a "hefty amount" to get out of the final year of his contract. The amount was believed to be somewhere around $1 million, made up of fines, lost bonuses and a prorated portion of his $3.3 million signing bonus.

USA Today Link (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-11-17-lelie-broncos-dispute_x.htm)

IslandRed
03-08-2011, 07:54 PM
According to Mike Lombardi of the NFL network he wouldn't have to pay anything back under the current CBA (see Ashley Lelie as Lombardi referenced) however it remains to be seen if under the new CBA he would have to pay back any portion.

I have strong doubts that any such changes would be retroactive to old contracts done under the old rules. Anything signed going forward, sure.

Mario-Rijo
03-09-2011, 09:58 AM
I have strong doubts that any such changes would be retroactive to old contracts done under the old rules. Anything signed going forward, sure.

Your probably right but it's not out of the question.

Hoosier Red
03-09-2011, 05:47 PM
I don't think he should have to pay it back in any case. Everything he signed was done so in good faith. So far as we know, he had every intention of playing the entire contract, and he changed his mind afterwards.
The contract stipulates that a certain dollar figure was paid to him the first year, a certain figure the 2nd year, etc etc, if he retired, he'd be forfeiting whatever was still to be paid to him.

If owners don't like this, they could instead guarantee contracts. Then they wouldn't have to pay so much in signing bonuses.(NOT GOING TO HAPPEN)

Thinking in more down to earth terms say you sign on the dotted line for a life insurance policy saying that you have perfect health. Then the day after you receive the policy you find out that you have some horrible disease? Could the insurance company refuse to pay? NO, unless they can prove you knew about the terrible disease before hand and lied to them then they have to pay up.

Playadlc
03-09-2011, 07:47 PM
Dave Lapham - 03-09-2011 02:45 PM

Carson's wife is a big factor in this. She definitely wants out of Cincinnati. Unhappy wife=unhappy life. In the meeting Carson had with Mike Brown face to face all he said was he was unhappy. He would not divulge the specifics of his unhappiness. If you are trying to move on to another franchise, I guess it makes sense to not rip the organization of the guy you are trying to get to move you. My understanding is Marvin Lewis went to California later to see Carson face to face and came out of that session feeling Carson was determined in his resolve to move on. I saw Carson leave the locker room the day after the season ended and he had packed up his entire locker. Nothing left behind. His mind was made up then. It will be interesting to see if Marvin can get Mike to soften his position about trading disgruntled players under contract. Particularly the player Mike looks at as the face of his franchise. If the market will bear a 2nd rounder you have to pull the trigger on that don't you? I believe he has 3-5 years left if he avoids any more injury. Knee reconstruction, ligament damage to the throwing elbow.....that's plenty to deal with for any career.

http://footballpros.com/content.php/758-The-Carlson-Palmer-Enigma

Redhook
03-09-2011, 08:55 PM
http://footballpros.com/content.php/758-The-Carlson-Palmer-Enigma

Common sense to all is to get as much as you can for Carson when he's allowed to be traded. Mike Brown doesn't have common sense so we'll get zippo out of him when it's all said done.

redsfanmia
03-11-2011, 06:00 PM
Common sense to all is to get as much as you can for Carson when he's allowed to be traded. Mike Brown doesn't have common sense so we'll get zippo out of him when it's all said done.

I truly wonder what his trade value actually is. The Carson I watched the last few years is not very good at all, I would say below average. I think just wiping his contract off the books is a win for the Bengals. In a few years Palmer will be mentioned with Greg Cook as guys who could have been great had they not gotten injured.

Todd Gack
03-11-2011, 08:49 PM
I truly wonder what his trade value actually is. The Carson I watched the last few years is not very good at all, I would say below average. I think just wiping his contract off the books is a win for the Bengals. In a few years Palmer will be mentioned with Greg Cook as guys who could have been great had they not gotten injured.

Jake Delhomme was paid $7 million last year. QB's are gold in this league. Carson would warrant a 2nd round pick, plus other draft picks. . .minimum. I doubt anyone in the Top 10 is willing to trade their pick for him though, but being a QB who's had success before and is infinitely better than Delhomme, his value is still pretty decent. A think the Bengals would net a 1st rounder for him, but in the bottom half of the round.

redsfanmia
03-11-2011, 08:57 PM
Jake Delhomme was paid $7 million last year. QB's are gold in this league. Carson would warrant a 2nd round pick, plus other draft picks. . .minimum. I doubt anyone in the Top 10 is willing to trade their pick for him though, but being a QB who's had success before and is infinitely better than Delhomme, his value is still pretty decent. A think the Bengals would net a 1st rounder for him, but in the bottom half of the round.

How many Super Bowls has Carson played in?

Todd Gack
03-11-2011, 09:02 PM
How many Super Bowls has Carson played in?

How many playoff games has Mike Brown won in a league designed for everyone to win at some point or another?

The answer is the same and I have no idea what relevance that has to his trade value.

redsfanmia
03-11-2011, 09:10 PM
How many playoff games has Mike Brown won in a league designed for everyone to win at some point or another?

The answer is the same and I have no idea what relevance that has to his trade value.

You said that Carson is infintly better than Delhomme and I think he is not. Carson's career Qb rating before not including 2010 is 86.9 and Delhomme's is 81.2. Carson's career record is 50-61 and Delhomme's is 54-43. Prime years of his career I would take Delhomme over Palmer. My point is Carson is a below average quarter back with a terrible contract and has little trade value.

Redhook
03-11-2011, 09:19 PM
Prime years of his career I would take Delhomme over Palmer. My point is Carson is a below average quarter back with a terrible contract and has little trade value.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's just crazy talk. Palmer in his prime, or peak I should say, was an outstanding QB. One of the best 3 in the league. This was short-lived, unfortunately, but something Delhomme couldn't come close to achieving. Palmer at his best blows Delhomme out of the water.

That being said, Carson is now a below average QB. There's no doubt about it. He has the chance to put together another good year or two, but his prime years are gone.

I believe Carson could fetch a 2nd round pick and I would jump all over that. No chance of that happening though. Mike Brown has dug in and Carson won't play this year.

Todd Gack
03-11-2011, 09:20 PM
You said that Carson is infintly better than Delhomme and I think he is not. Carson's career Qb rating before not including 2010 is 86.9 and Delhomme's is 81.2. Carson's career record is 50-61 and Delhomme's is 54-43. Prime years of his career I would take Delhomme over Palmer. My point is Carson is a below average quarter back with a terrible contract and has little trade value.

You're right, he's below average. At the same time, I'm willing to beat there are plenty of teams who would gladly trade a 2nd round pick for his services/contract. My guess is that he'll play much better for another organization, but nothing spectacular. I'd be willing to guess that if wants out of Cincy so bad and for another team to take on his contract, he'd be willing to re-work it.

redsfanmia
03-11-2011, 09:26 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's just crazy talk. Palmer in his prime, or peak I should say, was an outstanding QB. One of the best 3 in the league. This was short-lived, unfortunately, but something Delhomme couldn't come close to achieving. Palmer at his best blows Delhomme out of the water.

That being said, Carson is now a below average QB. There's no doubt about it. He has the chance to put together another good year or two, but his prime years are gone.

I believe Carson could fetch a 2nd round pick and I would jump all over that. No chance of that happening though. Mike Brown has dug in and Carson won't play this year.

Carson had one great year one good one. Jim Harbaugh had one great season and a few good ones and he was never a top teir quarterback. I wonder if Carson's prime years were just flukes and what we see now is the real Palmer?

redsfanmia
03-11-2011, 09:28 PM
You're right, he's below average. At the same time, I'm willing to beat there are plenty of teams who would gladly trade a 2nd round pick for his services/contract. My guess is that he'll play much better for another organization, but nothing spectacular. I'd be willing to guess that if wants out of Cincy so bad and for another team to take on his contract, he'd be willing to re-work it.

Carson is essentially quitting on his team right? Its one thing for a prima donna reciever to do that but its completely different when your quarterback does it. It kind of reminds me of Jeff George. I just do not think he has a lot of value in the trade market.

Redhook
03-12-2011, 08:25 AM
Carson had one great year one good one. Jim Harbaugh had one great season and a few good ones and he was never a top teir quarterback. I wonder if Carson's prime years were just flukes and what we see now is the real Palmer?

They weren't flukes. Major injuries happened and the rest is history.

redsfanmia
03-12-2011, 03:31 PM
They weren't flukes. Major injuries happened and the rest is history.

Tom Brady had a major injury and came back and is almost as good right? Why is the injury thing a crutch for Carson? If he is that injured then maybe he should have retired 3 seasons ago.

Mario-Rijo
03-12-2011, 08:05 PM
Jake Delhomme was paid $7 million last year. QB's are gold in this league. Carson would warrant a 2nd round pick, plus other draft picks. . .minimum. I doubt anyone in the Top 10 is willing to trade their pick for him though, but being a QB who's had success before and is infinitely better than Delhomme, his value is still pretty decent. A think the Bengals would net a 1st rounder for him, but in the bottom half of the round.

I'd be aiming for Seattles pick at number 25 I believe it is.

Mario-Rijo
03-12-2011, 08:12 PM
Carson had one great year one good one. Jim Harbaugh had one great season and a few good ones and he was never a top teir quarterback. I wonder if Carson's prime years were just flukes and what we see now is the real Palmer?

Well his most recent season he threw for 26 TD's and nearly 4000 yards. I don't care what else he did or didn't do that isn't below average. And suggesting that his wins are somehow a major indictment on him is preposterous. 2 times he has had a good enough team around him to make the playoffs, one he was hurt on the 1st play of the game and the other his defense wasn't good enough to hold the opposition and his offensive co-ordinator decided to throw the ball with little to throw to against the #1 rated pass defense in the league, foolish.

Redhook
03-12-2011, 10:10 PM
Tom Brady had a major injury and came back and is almost as good right? Why is the injury thing a crutch for Carson? If he is that injured then maybe he should have retired 3 seasons ago.

Maybe he should've focused on ping-pong in college instead of football? Seriously, what in the world are you talking about? This isn't that complicated. I really am curious why you can't stand Carson so much.

Carson was a great quarterback before his knee got blown out. He was one of the top 3-4 in the game. After that injury, he's been right around average with some years better and some years worse than others. I'm not trying to make excuses for Carson and really don't care if he ever plays for the Bengals again, or anyone else for that matter. It's just preposterous to suggest he should've retired 3 seasons ago or that Jake Delhomme was better than him in his prime.

redsfanmia
03-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Maybe he should've focused on ping-pong in college instead of football? Seriously, what in the world are you talking about? This isn't that complicated. I really am curious why you can't stand Carson so much.

Carson was a great quarterback before his knee got blown out. He was one of the top 3-4 in the game. After that injury, he's been right around average with some years better and some years worse than others. I'm not trying to make excuses for Carson and really don't care if he ever plays for the Bengals again, or anyone else for that matter. It's just preposterous to suggest he should've retired 3 seasons ago or that Jake Delhomme was better than him in his prime.

I don't hate Carson, I don't like the fact that he is giving up on his team and that it seems that he gets no heat for the Bengals struggles. Carson is an average quarterback at best who had ONE great season and two good seasons. Carson is no better than Jim Harbaugh, Bobby Hebert or Delhomme IMO and none of those guys were ever considered a top 3-4 quarterback.

Mario-Rijo
03-13-2011, 03:18 PM
Just thought I'd add these quotes from Dave Lapham (alledgedly).

Football Pros Link (http://footballpros.com/content.php/758-The-Carlson-Palmer-Enigma)


Carson's wife is a big factor in this. She definitely wants out of Cincinnati. Unhappy wife=unhappy life. In the meeting Carson had with Mike Brown face to face all he said was he was unhappy. He would not divulge the specifics of his unhappiness. If you are trying to move on to another franchise, I guess it makes sense to not rip the organization of the guy you are trying to get to move you. My understanding is Marvin Lewis went to California later to see Carson face to face and came out of that session feeling Carson was determined in his resolve to move on. I saw Carson leave the locker room the day after the season ended and he had packed up his entire locker. Nothing left behind. His mind was made up then. It will be interesting to see if Marvin can get Mike to soften his position about trading disgruntled players under contract. Particularly the player Mike looks at as the face of his franchise. If the market will bear a 2nd rounder you have to pull the trigger on that don't you? I believe he has 3-5 years left if he avoids any more injury. Knee reconstruction, ligament damage to the throwing elbow.....that's plenty to deal with for any career.


His wife went back to the West Coast last season with 5 games left to play in the season. They have 2 year old twins (boy & girl) and she was pregnant with their third child, a second daughter born in early February. People in Carson's neighborhood that I have spoken with say the rubbish on the property was "urban legend" grossly exaggerated. His wife was upset when he reached 25,000 passing yards in the Tampa Bay game... and when the achievement was put up on the Jumbotron he was booed because of a costly intercetion that was thrown at the end of the game that was a huge factor in the loss. She has supposedly told Carson if he chooses to return to Cincinnati he goes alone, no wife and kids. I also think Carson is fed up with the lack of discipline with which his receivers have run their routes that cost him a lot of interceptions that he endured. Never pointed the finger publicly, yet the problem persisted. The receivers never had their feet held to the fire. When he told Mike he was unhappy, I think it involves everything. How the organization is run top to bottom.

Todd Gack
03-13-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't hate Carson, I don't like the fact that he is giving up on his team and that it seems that he gets no heat for the Bengals struggles. Carson is an average quarterback at best who had ONE great season and two good seasons. Carson is no better than Jim Harbaugh, Bobby Hebert or Delhomme IMO and none of those guys were ever considered a top 3-4 quarterback.

Carson's pretty much doing what every other Bengals fan should do and give up on this franchise.

Tony Cloninger
03-13-2011, 10:50 PM
http://footballpros.com/content.php/758-The-Carlson-Palmer-Enigma


Well the least he could do is state his reasons instead of being vague. But this is his personality...which while I thought his personality matched Troy Aikman's when he first came to the NFL (Along with his talents) His passive agressive nature is really not conducive to leading a team as an NFL QB.

Redsfanmia.....NO better than Bobby Hebert, Harbaugh? Are you kidding me with this analysis? The 2005 season alone is better than what those 2 did ever along with Delhomme...good grief ....,yeah you don't hate him at all, sure sounds like you don't at all. :rolleyes:

Tony Cloninger
03-13-2011, 10:53 PM
Just thought I'd add these quotes from Dave Lapham (alledgedly).

Football Pros Link (http://footballpros.com/content.php/758-The-Carlson-Palmer-Enigma)


I am all for holding those 2 WR's under and over the fire. Chad Johnson (Your name is Johnson Chad not a number) should have been traded but Mike is and will continue to be too stupid to realize it.....who quit being a WR after 2005-06 and decided to turn into Kim Kardashian. Owens played better but still was more worried about getting hurt to try and dive for balls. They all have to be perfectly placed for him.

Yachtzee
03-13-2011, 11:23 PM
Gee, I hope that if Carson goes to another team, his wife doesn't expect it to be sunshine and lollipops. Bengals fans are softies compared to other fan bases in the league. I'd say a lot of Bengals fans still think he could return to his old form. If he goes to a new team and doesn't perform up to expectations, it will be a lot worse. Imagine if he got sent to New York, Philadelphia or Cleveland.

I don't agree with fans who have booed him, but they've been buying the tickets, watching games on TV, and buying the merchandise that justifies his big salary. Whether they cheer or boo, the fans are the reason why Mrs. Palmer's husband has such a well-paying job. If she can't deal with it, maybe Carson needs to retire.

bucksfan2
03-14-2011, 10:01 AM
I don't agree with fans who have booed him, but they've been buying the tickets, watching games on TV, and buying the merchandise that justifies his big salary. Whether they cheer or boo, the fans are the reason why Mrs. Palmer's husband has such a well-paying job. If she can't deal with it, maybe Carson needs to retire.

I booed. It was in the middle of the worst collapse of a football game I have seen in a long time. There is no way you should have lost a 10 (or 14) point lead late in the game. There is no way you should have lost a game in which you could have taken the ball under the 2 minute warning, punted it inside the 20 and forced Josh Freeman score a TD with no time outs.

When interviewed a little bit later Carson said he didn't even hear the boos. And that they didn't bother him if he would have. I have said this before, if Carson wanted to retire because he is financially set and doesn't want to take the pounding anymore then I am all for that. But if there are ulterior motives then that is where I have a problem.

Hoosier Red
03-14-2011, 12:20 PM
I don't know BucksFan, I'm wondering if the pushback from his wife was simply the straw breaking the camel's back.

Would I be willing to live seperate from my wife and kids for 7-8 months out of the year?
Maybe.

Would I be willing to put up with a mouthy wide receiver and an out of control dysfunctional football team wihich will constantly give me no margin for error if I want to win?
Maybe.

Would I be willing to put up with the mouthy wide receiver on the out of control dysfunctional football team even as I know my skills have already peaked all while being away from my wife and three kids for 7 months out of the year?
Maybe not. Especially when my alternatives are 1) Be traded 2) Retire.

Now, the whole leaking of information is a bit too over the top for my tastes, but from what it sounds like, he was upfront and honest about this with Mike Brown and he didn't personally go to the press.(It may very well have been someone with the Bengals that leaked this information.)

bucksfan2
03-14-2011, 02:00 PM
I don't know BucksFan, I'm wondering if the pushback from his wife was simply the straw breaking the camel's back.

Would I be willing to live seperate from my wife and kids for 7-8 months out of the year?
Maybe.

Would I be willing to put up with a mouthy wide receiver and an out of control dysfunctional football team wihich will constantly give me no margin for error if I want to win?
Maybe.

Would I be willing to put up with the mouthy wide receiver on the out of control dysfunctional football team even as I know my skills have already peaked all while being away from my wife and three kids for 7 months out of the year?
Maybe not. Especially when my alternatives are 1) Be traded 2) Retire.

Now, the whole leaking of information is a bit too over the top for my tastes, but from what it sounds like, he was upfront and honest about this with Mike Brown and he didn't personally go to the press.(It may very well have been someone with the Bengals that leaked this information.)

It was my understanding that Carson and his family moved to Cincinnati for the majority of the season. I also thought that he sold his California home a few years ago and it wasn't until recently that he bought the parcel of property around San Diego. From my perspective due to Carson's job the idea of relocation and living in a place that you don't love (or like) is a real option. If he wasn't happy in Cincinnati he never should have signed that extension. Carson has a contract and as with millions of other employees that contract needs to be honored.

Now if he wants to retire from football I have no issue with that. If he wants to retire because he wants to spend more time with his family good for him. If he wants to retire because of the injuries that come with football then good for him. If his entire goal in playing football was to set his family up for life and to retire young then good for him. Not so much good for the Bengals, but good for him.

To me it doesn't sound like Carson wants to retire, just that is his bargaining chip. He is capitalizing on the situation that several west coast teams find themselves in. He realizes that there are potential suitors in San Francisco, Seattle, and Arizona. If he walks away from the game Jake Plumber style then good for him. If he whines and cries his way out of Cincy then good riddance.

kaldaniels
03-14-2011, 02:59 PM
Carson has a contract and as with millions of other employees that contract needs to be honored.


I've said it once and I'll say it again. Contracts are totally different in the NFL. The fact that they are not guarenteed changes everything. Do you feel just as strongly that the Bengals should not have cut Antonio Bryant...or do you prefer they stuck with the 4 yr 28 MM deal? I'm with you, contracts in general should be honored...but signing a non-guarenteed deal is a whole different ballgame.

redsfanmia
03-14-2011, 04:41 PM
Well the least he could do is state his reasons instead of being vague. But this is his personality...which while I thought his personality matched Troy Aikman's when he first came to the NFL (Along with his talents) His passive agressive nature is really not conducive to leading a team as an NFL QB.

Redsfanmia.....NO better than Bobby Hebert, Harbaugh? Are you kidding me with this analysis? The 2005 season alone is better than what those 2 did ever along with Delhomme...good grief ....,yeah you don't hate him at all, sure sounds like you don't at all. :rolleyes:

After looking at the stats Hebert and Harbaugh was a bit of a stretch. Carson is still an average quarterback at best.

redsfanmia
03-14-2011, 08:03 PM
Well the least he could do is state his reasons instead of being vague. But this is his personality...which while I thought his personality matched Troy Aikman's when he first came to the NFL (Along with his talents) His passive agressive nature is really not conducive to leading a team as an NFL QB.

Redsfanmia.....NO better than Bobby Hebert, Harbaugh? Are you kidding me with this analysis? The 2005 season alone is better than what those 2 did ever along with Delhomme...good grief ....,yeah you don't hate him at all, sure sounds like you don't at all. :rolleyes:

I went to Profootball reference and some of the studs that Carson's career was most like were Jake Delhomme, Mark Rypien, Scott Mitchell and Aaron Brooks.

KoryMac5
03-14-2011, 08:21 PM
I went to Profootball reference and some of the studs that Carson's career was most like were Jake Delhomme, Mark Rypien, Scott Mitchell and Aaron Brooks.


Talk about cherry pickin the worst names on the list to prove your point. I think you forgot to mention some of the other names included in that list. Romo, Eli, Bernie, and Rivers. Not a big Carson fan myself and hopefully this situation gets worked out similiar to Boomers departure when Shula got here.

redsfanmia
03-14-2011, 10:13 PM
Talk about cherry pickin the worst names on the list to prove your point. I think you forgot to mention some of the other names included in that list. Romo, Eli, Bernie, and Rivers. Not a big Carson fan myself and hopefully this situation gets worked out similiar to Boomers departure when Shula got here.

I also forgot David Garrard and Chad Pennington.

Yachtzee
03-15-2011, 03:53 PM
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Contracts are totally different in the NFL. The fact that they are not guarenteed changes everything. Do you feel just as strongly that the Bengals should not have cut Antonio Bryant...or do you prefer they stuck with the 4 yr 28 MM deal? I'm with you, contracts in general should be honored...but signing a non-guarenteed deal is a whole different ballgame.

He got a huge signing bonus up front in exchange for the non-guaranteed deal. Want a guaranteed deal? Then offer to take less money up front. But NFL players and their agents wont do that. They want the "now" money, knowing that if they renegotiate a deal before the old one is up, it means more "now" money in the form of another signing bonus (oh and another percentage of the signing bonus for the agent). If they get cut, that just means they can negotiate a deal with other teams, and yes, another new signing bonus.

Hoosier Red
03-15-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm not sure about that Yachtzee. I'm pretty sure the teams come out on the winning end of that equation.

Players only renegotiate or extend contracts when they are performing and it's not all of them who do it. Teams get to cut someone who is cut, old, or just not performing up to par. Often times they'll cut a guy only to re-sign him.

In general it comes to the same thing, because most teams spend at or above the salary cap for a given year. So the players get the same dollar figure. But for an individual players? I don't think that individual players would be against guaranteed contracts.

Yachtzee
03-15-2011, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure about that Yachtzee. I'm pretty sure the teams come out on the winning end of that equation.

Players only renegotiate or extend contracts when they are performing and it's not all of them who do it. Teams get to cut someone who is cut, old, or just not performing up to par. Often times they'll cut a guy only to re-sign him.

In general it comes to the same thing, because most teams spend at or above the salary cap for a given year. So the players get the same dollar figure. But for an individual players? I don't think that individual players would be against guaranteed contracts.

Actually, most NFL contracts are negotiated with the idea that it's the signing bonus where the real money is and most contracts are written so that both parties know that the final years of the contract aren't expected to be enforced. In fact, many long-term contracts have salary escalators built in to force teams to renegotiate the contract early in order to stay under the salary cap. In a way, it's kind of like the team holding an option contract where they can keep the player on the same contract, but only if they agree to pay the escalated salary rate. Otherwise they either have to redo the contract with a new signing bonus or cut the player to stay under the cap, allowing that player to seek out other teams. Thus, the big money at the end of a long-term contract is often considered "fake money" used solely to make the contract look bigger (as an ego boost to the player and his agent). Everyone knows that the real money in the NFL is in the signing bonus.

Of course, this really only applies to big name players who can pull in a long-term contract. I'd guess that most players play under 1-3 year deals that expire as a matter of course. In the event they do get cut, as long as they remain on the roster by a certain date, they get paid for the whole year, regardless of when they get cut. I'd say most players maybe lose 1 year off the contract if they get cut and the signing bonus when they signed was probably worth more than the final year of the contract. Guys who get cut and resign with the team at a lower salary usually make up the lost money from the remainder of the contract in the signing bonus for the next one.

Really, the reason NFL contracts are structured the way they are today is due to years of teams and players' agents working together to get players the money they feel they deserve while trying to fit within the structure of the salary cap. If the players were so fired up about guaranteed contracts, you better believe their agents, especially guys like Drew Rosenhaus and Leigh Steinberg, would have gotten their guys guaranteed contracts. However, agents work to get their clients the best compensation they can, and that typically means more money. If they can get their clients a more lucrative deal by choosing a huge signing bonus up front on a non-guaranteed contract than they would if they went for the guaranteed contract, then they go for the more lucrative deal.

In a way, I can understand why they do what they do. NFL players generally have shorter careers than other sports. Taking more money up front is not unlike a person who wins the lottery opting for a smaller payout now instead of taking the larger payout spread over many years. If you take the lump-sum payout now, you can invest it and it will be earning money for you now in the form of interest and capital gains that can outpace the inflation rate. On the other hand, if you take the longer payout, you actually lose some value to inflation. Tomorrow's money is less than today's. I'd guess that many NFL players have been advised that it's better to have the money in their account so that they can invest it as they please and earn returns on it rather than having it sit in a long-term contract, allowing the owners to hold onto that money and invest it, and earn the returns themselves.

IslandRed
03-15-2011, 09:07 PM
Really, the reason NFL contracts are structured the way they are today is due to years of teams and players' agents working together to get players the money they feel they deserve while trying to fit within the structure of the salary cap. If the players were so fired up about guaranteed contracts, you better believe their agents, especially guys like Drew Rosenhaus and Leigh Steinberg, would have gotten their guys guaranteed contracts.

To me, the reason nearly all contracts are non-guaranteed is because everyone understands they make no sense in football. The sport's too violent. It's like the risk of handing out a six-year guaranteed contract to a pitcher, multiplied by ten. It's both the reason players want as much money up front as possible, and the reason the owners are okay with doing that instead of guaranteeing multiple years at high salaries.

I suspect star quarterbacks could get baseball-type contracts if they wanted, but they're happy to get the money up front just as well. Everyone else's professional life expectancy is too short.

texasdave
03-17-2011, 09:59 AM
The GM said the Bengals' Marvin Lewis knows Palmer won't play for him again, and he should. He talked to the guy. But there's that matter of what to do next, and this may be a test of Lewis' power and leverage Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/morning-jolt/03/17/palmer.done.bengals/index.html#ixzz1GrSUjM53

Redhook
03-22-2011, 08:43 AM
Scrooge has dug in and isn't going to budge. You just have to admire his determination to win.......

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110321/SPT02/103220338/Mike-Brown-Carson-Palmer-will-not-traded-period?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Sports|p

Sea Ray
03-22-2011, 12:10 PM
I take MB's comments as "don't come here thinking it's a firesale. I want a 1st rd pick for him"

It makes no sense for the Bengals to trade him for a pick that we're going to use on the next Keiwan Ratliff. By trading him we are making one of our competitors better.

I am in the camp that we need at least a 1st rd pick for him and if no other team wants to give us that then I'll enjoy watching him rot. That said I do think he will eventually be traded despite MB's posturing

LoganBuck
03-22-2011, 04:46 PM
I take MB's comments as "don't come here thinking it's a firesale. I want a 1st rd pick for him"

It makes no sense for the Bengals to trade him for a pick that we're going to use on the next Keiwan Ratliff. By trading him we are making one of our competitors better.

I am in the camp that we need at least a 1st rd pick for him and if no other team wants to give us that then I'll enjoy watching him rot. That said I do think he will eventually be traded despite MB's posturing

First time in a long time that you and I agree. Mike Brown couldn't trade him if he wanted to right now anyway. Why discuss it with the public? Eventually if he wants to he can press the NFC West to open up the bidding.

Sea Ray
03-22-2011, 06:12 PM
First time in a long time that you and I agree.

Get professional help NOW before it's too late...:)

MWM
03-22-2011, 06:35 PM
I think people who think this is posturing on the part of Mike Brown are seriously misjudging him. He's not that smart, and I'm not kidding. I also think you underestimate his determination when it comes to never giving in to demands of any kind. It's been 20 years and counting and he still had no intention of ever hiring a real GM.

MWM
03-22-2011, 06:39 PM
The way Mike Brown answers questions make him sound like he barely knows how the game of football is played. I mean, what football executive talks like this? He has to be the the major butt of jokes among other NFL GMs.


The quarterback position is one that is key


That's a very big question still to be answered. If it is answered right, our chances will be pretty good. We're going to try to get it answered right and there are different ways to do that


They will say 'No you pass and I knew you were going to pass.' Well, we throw the ball 60 percent of the time and in certain situations that's a pretty good guess.

Sea Ray
03-22-2011, 10:09 PM
I think people who think this is posturing on the part of Mike Brown are seriously misjudging him. He's not that smart, and I'm not kidding. I also think you underestimate his determination when it comes to never giving in to demands of any kind. It's been 20 years and counting and he still had no intention of ever hiring a real GM.

I think it's entirely possible that he just stumbled upon the right strategy here. Whether he thought it through or not, he might as well give other teams the impression that he's not going to "give" Carson Palmer away.

Redhook
03-22-2011, 10:09 PM
I think people who think this is posturing on the part of Mike Brown are seriously misjudging him. He's not that smart, and I'm not kidding. I also think you underestimate his determination when it comes to never giving in to demands of any kind. It's been 20 years and counting and he still had no intention of ever hiring a real GM.

I agree.

The New Orleans Saints could offer their entire draft for Carson and Mike Brown would still say no. ;)

Redhook
03-22-2011, 10:11 PM
I think it's entirely possible that he just stumbled upon the right strategy here. Whether he thought it through or not, he might as well give other teams the impression that he's not going to "give" Carson Palmer away.

I firmly believe Mike Brown would hire a GM before he traded Carson. And we know the odds of him hiring a GM.

Redhook
03-22-2011, 10:13 PM
The way Mike Brown answers questions make him sound like he barely knows how the game of football is played. I mean, what football executive talks like this? He has to be the the major butt of jokes among other NFL GMs.

A complete embarrassment to the City of Cincinnati. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for some of their meetings. It'd be hilarious, but sad because his ineptitude affects my team and my city. When will it end????

Playadlc
03-22-2011, 10:48 PM
I also think you underestimate his determination when it comes to never giving in to demands of any kind. .

Corey Dillon says hi.

Boss-Hog
03-22-2011, 11:06 PM
Corey Dillon says hi.
Takeo Spikes, too (MWM's point is well taken, though).

RiverRat13
03-23-2011, 10:17 AM
Takeo Spikes, too (MWM's point is well taken, though).

I'm pretty sure Takeo left through free agency.

Boss-Hog
03-23-2011, 10:22 AM
He did, but they could (and would) have tagged him if he hadn't been so adamant about wanting out.


I'm pretty sure Takeo left through free agency.

Hoosier Red
03-23-2011, 11:04 AM
He did, but they could (and would) have tagged him if he hadn't been so adamant about wanting out.

It also showed at the time that Marvin had some pull. The word was that Mike wanted to tag him, but Marvin asked him not to. I think Marvin wanted a clean slate.

The same thing could happen here eventually.

Boss-Hog
03-23-2011, 01:17 PM
It also showed at the time that Marvin had some pull. The word was that Mike wanted to tag him, but Marvin asked him not to. I think Marvin wanted a clean slate.

The same thing could happen here eventually.
You're exactly right that's why they let him go and Marvin in the past couple of years even said not being able to coach Takeo in his prime was one of, if not his biggest, regrets during his tenure. I will agree that they made the correct move to start changing the culture, but I think everyone can agree that he's the exception in that he was allowed to leave, and not the rule, for the reason you mentioned.

I think Carson being a QB instead of a LB makes this a different situation from that standpoint. By all accounts, Marvin does want to move on from a player that clearly doesn't want to be here, but given Mikey's love for his QB's, I'll believe that will happen only when I see it.

Sea Ray
03-23-2011, 01:53 PM
If Carson really is adamant about not playing here then MB will trade him eventually; probably next year. Honestly I think any GM would handle it like MB has to this point considering the lockout and where the Bengals stand. If MB comes out and announces that Carson is done as a Bengal and call 1-800-BENGALS will take best offer, then he loses all leverage. Right now he can refuse all offers and say "if that's all you're going to give me I'll let him rot in Southern Cal."

remdog
03-23-2011, 06:58 PM
Hey, if ya' got $30M in the bank, you're in your 30's with a couple of kids and you've suffered the trauma that is known as the Cincinnati Bengals, I'd be happy to 'rot' in Southern California. :)

I really think that Carson has been a pretty good quarterback considering the inept teams that the Bengals have surrounded him with. I also think he has been a leader, quiet, but still a leader. We've all seen him get his receivers faces when need be. He's been a class act. But, considering having to work for an owner like Mikey Boy I certainly understand his willingness to 'hang 'em up'.

Rem