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michst
01-23-2011, 02:33 PM
Just watching NFL Gameday - they said Carson Palmer has said he wants to be traded or he will retire.

MWM
01-23-2011, 02:36 PM
I like Carson even more now than before. Good for him.

UKFlounder
01-23-2011, 02:39 PM
Let him retire and forfeit the $16 million on his contract.

I don't like Bengals management, but Carson has not exactly proven to be part of the solution either. If he's willing to give up that much money out of pure stubbornness, I kind of hope the Bengals dare him to do it.

Reds4Life
01-23-2011, 02:46 PM
I'd force him to retire and call his bluff. He's pulling a Marvin here, talking a big game but nothing to back it up.

Carson is elite in his own mind, that is about it.

dougdirt
01-23-2011, 02:46 PM
I guess he has had enough of Marvin and Bob?

Newport Red
01-23-2011, 02:48 PM
Let him retire and forfeit the $16 million on his contract.

I don't like Bengals management, but Carson has not exactly proven to be part of the solution either. If he's willing to give up that much money out of pure stubbornness, I kind of hope the Bengals dare him to do it.

Trade him. They can use the draft picks.

UKFlounder
01-23-2011, 02:49 PM
If some team offers a really good deal, then make the trade, but I wouldn't be shopping him around. I question his value to other teams, especially with this report going public, but if Mikey Boy gets an offer above and beyond what he thinks Carson is worth, then maybe do it, but it would have to be a very good deal. Carson is QB, not GM; he wanted TO and got it, and look what happened.


Trade him. They can use the draft picks.

kaldaniels
01-23-2011, 02:55 PM
Why does he want out?

The Operator
01-23-2011, 02:57 PM
I'd absolutely call his bluff. He thinks he can go giving ultimatums after the way he's played the past two seasons? Simply laughable.

I used to try and go easy on him performance wise since I generally thought he was a good guy. No reason to hold back now. He's right there with Ochocinco.

Razor Shines
01-23-2011, 02:58 PM
I bet harbaugh would take him in SF. I bet the titans would like to have him. I bet Washington would like to have him.

Oxilon
01-23-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm not the biggest Carson fan (overall not that good and wayyyy overpriced), but he's finally seen the man behind the curtain and how he operates this mom and pop of a franchise and realizes it's not worth anymore of his time. Another career casualty Mikey can put up on his chalkboard.

Razor Shines
01-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Seattle, Pete Carol, hasselbeck getting to where he needs to retire. I bet that's where Carson wants to go.

Cedric
01-23-2011, 03:11 PM
I'm not the biggest Carson fan (overall not that good and wayyyy overpriced), but he's finally seen the man behind the curtain and how he operates this mom and pop of a franchise and realizes it's not worth anymore of his time. Another career casualty Mikey can put up on his chalkboard.

I would love if someone who killed my career still handed me 100 million dollars.

Carson is a mental midget who is one of the most overpaid players in the league. He should thank god he gets a fat check and shut up.

Oxilon
01-23-2011, 03:16 PM
I would love if someone who killed my career still handed me 100 million dollars.

Carson is a mental midget who is one of the most overpaid players in the league. He should thank god he gets a fat check and shut up.

Why? He's taken a beating for 7 years for this inept franchise. If he wants to retire because he's fed up, more power to him. Mike Brown is a leech. Sucks the life out of everything, from the coaches, to the players, all the way down to the fans. Screw him.

Newport Red
01-23-2011, 03:17 PM
I'd absolutely call his bluff. He thinks he can go giving ultimatums after the way he's played the past two seasons? Simply laughable.

I used to try and go easy on him performance wise since I generally thought he was a good guy. No reason to hold back now. He's right there with Ochocinco.

So you want an overpaid, under performing, disgruntled Palmer as yor QB.

Maybe he watched the press conference too.

RiverRat13
01-23-2011, 03:24 PM
Mike Brown usually does not respond well to threats and/or ultimatums.

CTA513
01-23-2011, 03:36 PM
I guess he has had enough of Marvin and Bob?

From 2008:


Asked if he thought the same coaching staff could turn it from being stale, Palmer said, “I don’t think so,” but he also said he doesn’t know if Lewis will make those changes.

“We need a lot of changes,” said Palmer, who did respond to a question about discipline, a subject he has often discussed.

“When you look at the most successful teams in this league, they’re very disciplined,” Palmer said. “And we’re obviously not one of the most successful teams. I don’t think we’re the most disciplined team and that’s definitely an area we need to improve on.”

If I remember correctly the only changes we saw was on defense.

westofyou
01-23-2011, 03:47 PM
Mike Brown usually does not respond well to threats and/or ultimatums.

Nor to sound football moves.

Joseph
01-23-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm a Carson supporter, but I wouldn't mind restarting at this point.

Reds4Life
01-23-2011, 04:25 PM
I'm a Carson supporter, but I wouldn't mind restarting at this point.

Brown's record of restarting with QB's isn't so good. What worries me, if he is traded or retires, who is going to replace him?

With all the pieces on the way out, if no talented replacements come in, this team is going back to the 1990's, and in a hurry.

Redsfaithful
01-23-2011, 05:27 PM
I was wrong about the Marvin Lewis resigning. I figured that meant for sure the Bengals would have a new OC. Mike Brown is a cancer on the city of Cincinnati, and I don't blame Carson Palmer at all. I hope he goes and wins a Super Bowl somewhere else, just like Corey Dillon did.

I always hear that Mike Brown is loyal. He's not loyal, he's spineless. Firing Bob Bratkowski would be awkward because Bob's wife is BFF with Mike's, and so he can turn in an offense ranked in the 20s year after year, despite it being loaded with talent. I was actually feeling sort of optimistic about this team a few weeks ago, and then nothing happened with Brat and now this. I'd already decided no Sunday Ticket for me this year, and I'm only getting more and more apathetic.

Sea Ray
01-23-2011, 05:28 PM
If some team offers a really good deal, then make the trade, but I wouldn't be shopping him around. I question his value to other teams, especially with this report going public, but if Mikey Boy gets an offer above and beyond what he thinks Carson is worth, then maybe do it, but it would have to be a very good deal. Carson is QB, not GM; he wanted TO and got it, and look what happened.

There can be no player trades during or before the draft is there is no CBA. They can't grant Carson's wish even if they wanted to

Sea Ray
01-23-2011, 05:32 PM
From 2008:



If I remember correctly the only changes we saw was on defense.

That does make it sound like he's fed up with the offense and I agree with him that discipline is a primary problem. I'm wondering if he had visions of Norm Chow taking over for Bratkowski. It just so happens that this comes out less than a day after Norm Chow is announced as Utah's new OC

remdog
01-23-2011, 06:20 PM
Good for Carson! I have doubts that he really wants to be traded but someone needs to give Mikey a 'trout slap' and get his attention a la 'Mike, you're a crappy owner, have no business playing GM like this were a board game and I'm tired of getting beat and beat up every game. This ain't fantasy football and you suck at that too!'

I'm with Reds Reporter---I think Carson thought that there would at least be a change at Offensive Coordinator and maybe even Head Coach. Since Mikey can't 'man up' and make the needed changes then I don't blame Carson for being P.O.'d for donating his career and his body for a jack wagon like that.

Rem

Kingspoint
01-23-2011, 06:29 PM
Good for Carson.

Season ticket holders should follow his lead.

Kingspoint
01-23-2011, 06:30 PM
Why does he want out?

BratSUCKski.

Redhook
01-23-2011, 06:32 PM
I love it too. Good for Carson. I'm not saying he's deserving of anything. I just think it's great that more national light will be shed on Mike Brown. He has to hate any exposure which makes this great. I hope other players pile on Mike Brown too.

Sea Ray
01-23-2011, 06:39 PM
I love it too. Good for Carson. I'm not saying he's deserving of anything. I just think it's great that more national light will be shed on Mike Brown. He has to hate any exposure which makes this great. I hope other players pile on Mike Brown too.

I agree with you if Carson spells out his demands. But if he turns back into a wimp and says something like "he wants to go to a winner" or "go to a west coast team" then that gets us nowhere.

The Operator
01-23-2011, 06:54 PM
So you want an overpaid, under performing, disgruntled Palmer as yor QB.

Maybe he watched the press conference too.No, but I don't think he's got much trade value.

The more I think about it, the more I'm mixed about the whole thing.

I like the statement it makes about sticking it to Mike Brown. It says a lot that a guy would hang his career up entirely before he'd come back and play another year for Mikey. At the same time, Carson hasn't exactly been great these past 3 years. In fact, he's stunk quite a bit. So when he goes spouting off and wanting to jump ship, it doesn't sit too well because he's been a pretty big part of the problem in my opinion.

With that being said, I'd let him retire. I don't want him back as QB but I hate granting wishes to players who want to jump ship. Let him sit at home and forfeit the rest of his contract. When it comes down to it, it just really, really sucks to be a Bengals fan right now. The whole franchise is just a mess and it's hard to be very optimistic about that ever changing.

KoryMac5
01-23-2011, 07:03 PM
Maybe Carson probably was finally able to do some of the things the rest of us haven't been able to do, which is walk away from this team. I imagine fatherhood, a wife and being from the West Coast is influencing this choice the most, you couple that with the ineptness of this franchise after a 4-12 record and it is the perfect storm.

If he can walk away from all that money I will hold no grudge against the man as Mike Brown will not trade him.

KoryMac5
01-23-2011, 07:14 PM
A little more insight from a Bengals Blog:

http://bengalsinsider.blogspot.com/
Palmer angry with Mike Brown!
Chris Mortensen and Adam Scheffter of ESPN, have both been reporting that Carson Palmer is demanding a trade and that he is willing to retire if he doesn't get one. We've been on the phone with our contacts inside the Bengals front office all afternoon. Here's what we've found out for sure:


While Carson has not spoken with the team directly since the end of the season, his agent, David Dunn has been. He has talked with Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis about the direction of the team and changes that he thinks are needed. We are told that #1 on the list was a new offensive coordinator. When Dunn was informed that Bratkowski would be returning for 2011 and that only a possible consultant would be brought in, Palmer became infuriated at the unwillingness to make changes. While he has not technically demanded a trade, he has instructed Dunn to ask the Bengals to explore trade opportunities. Our sources say that they have heard nothing about a possible retirement, but everyone in the building is very aware of Carson's displeasure with Mike Brown at the moment.


We will stay on top of this situation and have more for you as we get trustworthy information!

Can't say I blame the guy, we all want changes and if there not made many of us including Palmer will be jumping off this sinking ship.

Oxilon
01-23-2011, 07:25 PM
Where is Bratkowski during all of this? He's been in Cincinnati for 10 years now and with the exception of one year, the offense hasn't been good. Now his own players are calling for his head. Cedric Benson, Terrell Owens, Chad Ochocinco, Carson Palmer, and even his boss, Marvin Lewis, all want him gone. Obviously the only thing preventing him being gone is Mike Brown. But what about Brat himself? You'd think that he might just consider resigning due to this mess (it's amazing how quickly this has escalated to epic proportions now, isn't it?). I mean, if you held a job that's in the public spotlight, and EVERYBODY is criticizing you, wouldn't you contemplate resigning? Geez Brat, take some personal responsibility and axe yourself.

webbbj
01-23-2011, 07:51 PM
Carson Palmer's failures have been a product of himself and the organization he plays for.

-An organization that uses its own coaches as head of a scouting dept.
-An organization that wont fire an OC who is known widely throughout the league as one of the worst
-An organization that allows too many bad locker room guys to stick around and gives too many guys second,third, and 4th chances when no one else would
-He has been surrounded by a clown who he cant trust to be in the right spot at WR. (love chad tho but want to watch him in a different uniform aswell)
-A team that for 4-5 years now has failed to find an efficient pass blocking offensive line
-A team that resigns a coach w/ a losing record coming off 4-12 and is routinely one of the highest penalized teams.

-Palmer should have gotten tommy john surgery
-Carson Palmer, a QB that presses too much when the game is not in control. He doesnt avoid pressure well, he forces throws, he is missing throws to wide open guys, and has had many delay of game penalties. Inconsistency is his problem.

-A change of scenery at an organization like SF is exactly what he needs. Its not gonna make him 2005 Palmer who was an MVP candidate, but I think he has shown in the distant past that when everything was going right he can be an efficient QB. He can regain credibility as a top 12-14 QB atleast.

-Im Glad Palmer is doing this. I think its the only thing saving his career. Some may say he has no right to do this b/c they say what has he done. But what has this organization done for him? Back when Lewis was hired in 2003 things were supposed to be different, this was supposed to be an improving organization. Its 2011 and nothing has changed. And he has the power to demand a trade because there is a want for him. I wish him nothing but the best. I really do feel sorry for the next QB that comes here.

Oh and this is no guarantee either. 3 years ago Ocho demanded a trade very vehemently and Brown did nothing. I think its a better than good chance Brown just says "ok, retire i dare you, im not trading you" In which case I hope palmer holds out the whole season. If their not gonna work for me, he shouldnt work for them.

End Rant/

traderumor
01-23-2011, 08:10 PM
Its always good to find a scapegoat. This all appears like everyone deserves each other, yet the OC is the problem. Riiggggghhhhht!

redsfanmia
01-23-2011, 08:37 PM
Is Carson good enough to pull a power play like this?

MWM
01-23-2011, 08:58 PM
I don't think there's any way for us to really know how much Carson's struggles are his vs the system/coach.

CTA513
01-23-2011, 09:14 PM
Is Carson good enough to pull a power play like this?

If hes serious then it doesn't matter since the Bengals don't have anyone behind him that is good enough to start.

Sea Ray
01-23-2011, 09:19 PM
A little more insight from a Bengals Blog:

http://bengalsinsider.blogspot.com/
Palmer angry with Mike Brown!
Chris Mortensen and Adam Scheffter of ESPN, have both been reporting that Carson Palmer is demanding a trade and that he is willing to retire if he doesn't get one. We've been on the phone with our contacts inside the Bengals front office all afternoon. Here's what we've found out for sure:



Can't say I blame the guy, we all want changes and if there not made many of us including Palmer will be jumping off this sinking ship.

I do think this is a plausible explanation. I was hoping Marvin could bring about change, now let's see if Carson can fare better. If he muscles some change out of MB that no one else can, he'll be a hero before ever playing another game.

How dense can MB really be if his coach, RB and QB are all willing to quit unless he fired the OC? I get MB being leery about such a change with the impending lockout but hey, we can't have a mass mutiny

RiverRat13
01-23-2011, 09:30 PM
we can't have a mass mutiny

While you are 100% correct, I fear that it is in Mikey's nature to fight when he is backed into a corner. If Brat is retained, Marvin really should just resign. I think it would be the best move for his career.

redsfanmia
01-23-2011, 09:47 PM
If hes serious then it doesn't matter since the Bengals don't have anyone behind him that is good enough to start.

But if Carson retires then the Bengals are off the hook for all of his salary, that to me is the best case scenario for Mike Brown.

Dom Heffner
01-23-2011, 09:48 PM
You sign a contract, you honor it. Mike Brown is terrible but you play out your deal.

Palmer hasn't been lights out, how would he like it Brown said quit or we're not paying you?

These guys are babies.

CTA513
01-23-2011, 09:50 PM
But if Carson retires then the Bengals are off the hook for all of his salary, that to me is the best case scenario for Mike Brown.

They get off the hook for whats left, but they also don't get any draft picks and will likely have to reach for a QB at #4.

redsfanmia
01-23-2011, 09:54 PM
They get off the hook for whats left, but they also don't get any draft picks and will likely have to reach for a QB at #4.

Or they could trade for a guy like Tyler Thigpen, Alex Smith or Mark Bulger and go 1-15 and draft Andrew Luck in next years draft. The Bengals are bad with Carson so they can be bad without him.

webbbj
01-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Is Carson good enough to pull a power play like this?

as long as teams are interested then yes. and there are definitly some teams w/ QB problems that would be interested

CTA513
01-23-2011, 10:17 PM
Or they could trade for a guy like Tyler Thigpen, Alex Smith or Mark Bulger and go 1-15 and draft Andrew Luck in next years draft. The Bengals are bad with Carson so they can be bad without him.

If the plan is to go 1-15 so you can draft Luck then you can do that without trading for one of those guys.

George Foster
01-23-2011, 10:56 PM
You sign a contract, you honor it. Mike Brown is terrible but you play out your deal.

Palmer hasn't been lights out, how would he like it Brown said quit or we're not paying you?

These guys are babies. Dom I agree with you if this was in a regular business environment, however this is professional sports. Guys only have so many years to play in the NFL. Palmer has made his money, he wants to win. He knows the bengals are going nowhere. He wants the chance to leave his mark on the NFL and play in a super bowl...I don't blame him. If you were in a bad marriage and your spouse had no intentions on doing her part to improve the marriage would you stay in the marriage? Same thing. The Bengals are a "dead-beat" spouse.

Redsfaithful
01-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Its always good to find a scapegoat. This all appears like everyone deserves each other, yet the OC is the problem. Riiggggghhhhht!

Apart from the problem being Mike Brown ultimately, I think that people who downplay how much of a problem Bob Bratkowski is don't know what they are talking about.

Dom Heffner
01-23-2011, 11:15 PM
Dom I agree with you if this was in a regular business environment, however this is professional sports. Guys only have so many years to play in the NFL. Palmer has made his money, he wants to win. He knows the bengals are going nowhere. He wants the chance to leave his mark on the NFL and play in a super bowl...I don't blame him. If you were in a bad marriage and your spouse had no intentions on doing her part to improve the marriage would you stay in the marriage? Same thing. The Bengals are a "dead-beat" spouse.

Mik Brown hasn't changed- this is the same guy, not someone who changed midway through the deal.

He should have sat out the playoffs last year if Mikey was so bad. Oh wait, he did.

Tony Cloninger
01-23-2011, 11:36 PM
No, but I don't think he's got much trade value.

The more I think about it, the more I'm mixed about the whole thing.

I like the statement it makes about sticking it to Mike Brown. It says a lot that a guy would hang his career up entirely before he'd come back and play another year for Mikey. At the same time, Carson hasn't exactly been great these past 3 years. In fact, he's stunk quite a bit. So when he goes spouting off and wanting to jump ship, it doesn't sit too well because he's been a pretty big part of the problem in my opinion.

With that being said, I'd let him retire. I don't want him back as QB but I hate granting wishes to players who want to jump ship. Let him sit at home and forfeit the rest of his contract. When it comes down to it, it just really, really sucks to be a Bengals fan right now. The whole franchise is just a mess and it's hard to be very optimistic about that ever changing.


Jump ship? This is like the Titanic, Britannia and the Andrea Dora all rolled into one in that FO. Terrible organization and we all know it and harp on it but when Pickens, Dillon and Spikes want out...some people want to get on their case and wonder why? Or they should be happy to pick up pay checks.

So if i get tis right based on some comments made not just by you but also some others. The player should be happy he is getting paid tons of money....even if he is stuck on a loser of a team with an ingrate of an owner who gives new meaning to cutting off nose to spite face.... who knows there is really not much hope of changes at all, no matter how obvious.... but he has to grin and bear it and be Archie Manning part 2.

A lot of people talk about why players do not stand up and say something about the way things are done and finally someone does....and now some do not like it. He has every right to asked to be traded beacuse he is tired of being in a loser organization and he sees how things are run there better than anyone. I am not absolving him of some of his culpability.....but now that I watch LeBeau go to another SB... I see nothing is more of a microcosm of a bad organization than how badly Dick was as a Dc in Cincy while being lights out in Pittsburgh.... according to Brown, they have the same info as everyone else...how could that be?

Palmer is trying to call brown's bluff on not making changes. You may not like it but at least the quiet bengal who has some class in the way he behaves off/on the field is finally showing some cajones.

Kingspoint
01-23-2011, 11:58 PM
Great post, Cloninger.

Yachtzee
01-24-2011, 12:22 AM
My position on NFL players who whine and cry to get traded is always the same. If you don't like where you are, don't sign those huge contract extensions with all the years and signing bonuses. If you want out, give some of that upfront money you didn't earn and let the team free up cap space to bring in your replacement.

I don't like Bratkowski, but I think demanding a trade is weak, especially from a guy who is partially to blame for a lot of the Bengal's offensive troubles in the past. Palmer has had plenty of trouble hitting open receivers, even ones not named Ochocinco, so you can't say it's just bad route running. He's also had issues with poor choices on audibles, stupid delay of game penalties caused by failing to get the team to the line and get the ball hiked before the clock runs down, and a general lack of decisiveness in critical situations. Sure, he hasn't had the best offensive lines as of late, but he doesn't seem like a QB who makes quick decisions, even when he sometimes has all day to throw.

Personally, if everyone wants Brat out as coach, I'd rather see the players threaten a joint hold-out or some other concerted effort that forces Brown's hand. Brown has shown he's willing to wait out a single player demanding a trade. I think it would take a situation where he risks a significant number of players holding out to force his hand.

MWM
01-24-2011, 12:48 AM
The funny thing is that Mike Brown is one of the few owners in all of sports who honestly don't care about this. When he heard it, he probably grinned a little and went back to whatever he was doing. I really don't think he gives two rips about this.

CTA513
01-24-2011, 01:15 AM
I normally don't like it when players do this, but I'm hoping that this will force the Bengals to change things since its the starting QB thats saying this.

Chad is already upset with Lewis, Benson is talking about not wanting to come back if Brat is still hear and now Palmer is talking about wanting to be traded. This is going to be an interesting offseason.

Orenda
01-24-2011, 01:27 AM
....but now that I watch LeBeau go to another SB... I see nothing is more of a microcosm of a bad organization than how badly Dick was as a Dc in Cincy while being lights out in Pittsburgh.... according to Brown, they have the same info as everyone else...how could that be?


I thought the Bengals made some improvements defensively under Lebeau. Weren't they in the top 10 in defense a couple times? Lebeau as a head coach didn't work out but then again I don't see many people growing pineapples in Siberia.

webbbj
01-24-2011, 01:49 AM
My position on NFL players who whine and cry to get traded is always the same. If you don't like where you are, don't sign those huge contract extensions with all the years and signing bonuses. If you want out, give some of that upfront money you didn't earn and let the team free up cap space to bring in your replacement.



owners get rid of players all the time when they are under contract. So its ok for them to not honor the contract but its not okay for a player to try and force their way out?

I'd love Palmer to get traded to like the 49ers and come into PBS next year and light the bengals up w/ 5TD passes in a 35-0 route. Then flick off the crowd on his way out.

Razor Shines
01-24-2011, 02:28 AM
I think you Bengals fans are selling Palmer a little short. I think it's just one of those things were your guys aren't as bad they seem when things are going to hell and they aren't as good as they seem when things are going great.

I honestly have to believe that there are quite a few NFL teams that would like to have Palmer as their QB.

redsfandan
01-24-2011, 07:41 AM
owners get rid of players all the time when they are under contract. So its ok for them to not honor the contract but its not okay for a player to try and force their way out?


Exactly. I don't think ownership is held to the same standard.

There's an unwritten agreement between teams and fans. If the team is competitive and trying to win every game fans will support them. Every year Mike Brown tries to sell people that he wants to win. The Bengals run promos about how the team is going to march to the playoffs. And, every year ownership doesn't give the team what it needs to be as competitive as possible. Mike Brown was given a brand new stadium and most teams would be jealous of the terms. The fans have shown up game after game after game in that shiny new expensive stadium. And yet Mike does nothing. There was an article in the Sunday Enquirer about how more than a hundred season ticket holders aren't renewing. I hope the fans and players do even more to show Mike how frustrated they are. Instead of people being mad at Carson they should be mad at Mike. Cuz he brought all of this on himself.

Roy Tucker
01-24-2011, 09:06 AM
I think this shows how bad things are with the Bengals.

Palmer has been the ultimate trooper on this team. He has always takes on the blame for a lousy offensve coordinator, lousy OL, and diva receivers that run crap routes and freelance to their hearts content. He has *always* shut up about everything wrong with the Bengals and kept up a positive front.

If Palmer wants out, you know things have to be at the absolute pits. Now, it can be debated as to whether or not he's worth keeping and that is a valid point. But Palmer has been the ultimate team player and now he's turning his back on the team. All I can say is wow.

Redhook
01-24-2011, 09:20 AM
I think this shows how bad things are with the Bengals.

Palmer has been the ultimate trooper on this team. He has always takes on the blame for a lousy offensve coordinator, lousy OL, and diva receivers that run crap routes and freelance to their hearts content. He has *always* shut up about everything wrong with the Bengals and kept up a positive front.

If Palmer wants out, you know things have to be at the absolute pits. Now, it can be debated as to whether or not he's worth keeping and that is a valid point. But Palmer has been the ultimate team player and now he's turning his back on the team. All I can say is wow.

My thoughts exactly. I really hope Palmer doesn't back down. I hope he turns the heat up with more comments.

IMO, this is the single best thing that could've happened this offseason, and possibly in the last 20 years. Palmer is the only person connected with the Bengals that actually has a slimmer of a chance to get something positively done with the team. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I love it!

bucksfan2
01-24-2011, 09:30 AM
I think this shows how bad things are with the Bengals.

Palmer has been the ultimate trooper on this team. He has always takes on the blame for a lousy offensve coordinator, lousy OL, and diva receivers that run crap routes and freelance to their hearts content. He has *always* shut up about everything wrong with the Bengals and kept up a positive front.

If Palmer wants out, you know things have to be at the absolute pits. Now, it can be debated as to whether or not he's worth keeping and that is a valid point. But Palmer has been the ultimate team player and now he's turning his back on the team. All I can say is wow.

Palmer was a trooper because he was one of the top paid players in all of football.

I get all the Brat hate. But to some extent he has become a fall guy for this organization. Back in Palmer's hey day the Bengals had one of the most dynamic offenses in football run by Brat. They had a very good OLine, two Pro Bowl tackles and one pro bowl guard. They made the mistake of extending Willie and letting Steinbach walk. Lets not forget that at a time the Bengals were good, very good on O under Brat.

That said I do think its time for him to go. Changes need to happen because things get stale. The unfortunate stories that keep coming out about Mike's wife and Brat's wife being best friends. If thats true I wish someone in the Cincy media would break that story. Its one of the golden rules in business not to become friends with your employees.

If Palmer wants to walk away and he is happy with that then good for him. If he is doing this as a power play then good for him. But lets not forget that over the past 3-4 years he has been paid as one of the top 5 QB's in the league and has been playing like a 15ish QB. He is better than the also rans in the league, but he isn't a QB who gives you faith.

hebroncougar
01-24-2011, 09:59 AM
The only problem I have is he made it public. I don't blame him for wanting to get out, but by making it public, he's making himself look bad. Now if he's just trying to force some coaching changes...........that's a different story.

MWM
01-24-2011, 10:04 AM
Palmer was a trooper because he was one of the top paid players in all of football.


I think that's a pretty unfair characterization of the guy. Do you know him?

bucksfan2
01-24-2011, 10:08 AM
I think that's a pretty unfair characterization of the guy. Do you know him?

The same can be said about saying he is the hardest worker on the club. Unless you really know him its an unfair characterization. I don't have an issue with Carson I actually was a huge fan of his. I just have an issue with people treating him like a golden boy when he has been mediocre the last handful of seasons.

What I do find ironic is Reds fans have taken Cordero and Milton and Jr. and all the other high paid players and chastised them for not living up to their contracts. Yet those same Reds fans have treated Carson with kid gloves.

MWM
01-24-2011, 10:11 AM
Comparing Carson Palmer to Eric Milton? Really?

Sea Ray
01-24-2011, 10:18 AM
Comparing Carson Palmer to Eric Milton? Really?

Both failed to produce equal to the money spent.

bucksfan2
01-24-2011, 11:20 AM
Comparing Carson Palmer to Eric Milton? Really?

Why not? Eric Milton was a popular whipping boy in this city during his contract. He was awful, he was a bum, you could say everything negative and people would accept that because he didn't live up to his contract. Carson Palmer isn't living up to his contract. But for some reason he is the golden boy, people can't say anything negative about him. If they do it isn't Carson's fault its Mike Brown's fault. If it isn't Mike Brown's fault its Brat's fault. There has to come a point when we say Carson isn't getting the job done.

webbbj
01-24-2011, 11:25 AM
Palmer was a trooper because he was one of the top paid players in all of football.



he still is one of the top paid players

Newport Red
01-24-2011, 11:30 AM
Can Andrew Luck still declare for this year's draft? He may want to reconsider.

MikeS21
01-24-2011, 12:24 PM
Bratkowski needs to go. Poor play construction. Poor play selection. Even poorer play execution. Brat has been given good talent. He just hasn't maximized that talent.

Having said that, I have wondered if Carson Palmer has been overrated since Day 1. We heard all the hype coming out of USC, of this proto-typical textbook quarterback. One would think, with receivers such as Ocho and Owens, that Palmer should have won the Super Bowl THIS year. I truly wonder if he would be as successful elsewhere as many are saying he would.

Sea Ray
01-24-2011, 12:38 PM
Bratkowski needs to go. Poor play construction. Poor play selection. Even poorer play execution. Brat has been given good talent. He just hasn't maximized that talent.

Having said that, I have wondered if Carson Palmer has been overrated since Day 1. We heard all the hype coming out of USC, of this proto-typical textbook quarterback. One would think, with receivers such as Ocho and Owens, that Palmer should have won the Super Bowl THIS year. I truly wonder if he would be as successful elsewhere as many are saying he would.

I do know that going into this season the concensus was that Palmer had no more excuses. Management went out and got him weapons. It was up to him to use them. The offense stayed amazingly healthy yet they were still very unproductive. I think Brat is the biggest problem but I can't absolve Palmer either. He threw a lot of passes that had me yelling at the TV as he released the ball: "What are you doing???"

Boss-Hog
01-24-2011, 12:53 PM
http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Bengals-turn-down-Palmer-trade-request-No-Cincy-Chilly/0c87393e-06d0-43aa-9dbc-d9c93a0f3418

"Business as usual"

New York Red
01-24-2011, 01:20 PM
I'm a Carson supporter, but I wouldn't mind restarting at this point.
I agree. It's sad that it has to come to this point, but for the Bengals this is par for the course. Mike Brown isn't going anywhere, unfortunately.

RiverRat13
01-24-2011, 02:12 PM
http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Bengals-turn-down-Palmer-trade-request-No-Cincy-Chilly/0c87393e-06d0-43aa-9dbc-d9c93a0f3418

"Business as usual"

Marvin should resign. I think people around the league would have more respect for him if he did. As of now, he'll most likely coach a four or five win Cincy team that will leave him totally unattractive to any other team.

Oxilon
01-24-2011, 02:17 PM
Typical Mikey move. Ignore the situation, and it'll go away. It's amazing how clueless and stubborn the old man is. What an embarrassment to the city.

reds1869
01-24-2011, 02:27 PM
Typical Mikey move. Ignore the situation, and it'll go away. It's amazing how clueless and stubborn the old man is. What an embarrassment to the city.

My money is that SOP lets Palmer ride off into the sunset and gets nothing in return, just to prove his point. Typical Bengals.

MWM
01-24-2011, 02:33 PM
Why not? Eric Milton was a popular whipping boy in this city during his contract. He was awful, he was a bum, you could say everything negative and people would accept that because he didn't live up to his contract. Carson Palmer isn't living up to his contract. But for some reason he is the golden boy, people can't say anything negative about him. If they do it isn't Carson's fault its Mike Brown's fault. If it isn't Mike Brown's fault its Brat's fault. There has to come a point when we say Carson isn't getting the job done.

Good lord, Eric Milton was atrocious when he signed the contract and was exactly the guy many of us thought he was going to be. And no one was mad at Milton for not "living up to his contract." They were mad at the Reds FO for signing the guy who could never have lived up to the contract. Milton was one of the worst pitchers in the league.... probably the worst regular starting pitcher.

And no one will say anything negative about Carson? Have you read the Bengal discussions on this forum. There's been plenty of negative about Carson. But even on his worst day, he's not in the same universe as Eric Milton. Carson may have struggled some, but the team won the division as recently as last season. Comparing him to Eric Milton is just absurd.

Razor Shines
01-24-2011, 02:45 PM
Good lord, Eric Milton was atrocious when he signed the contract and was exactly the guy many of us thought he was going to be. And no one was made at Milton for not "living up to his contract." They were mad at the Reds FO for signing the guy who could never have lived up to the contract. Milton was one of the worst pitchers in the league.... probably the worst regular starting pitcher.

And no one will say anything negative about Carson? Have you read the Bengal discussions on this forum. There's been plenty of negative about Carson. But even on his worst day, he's not in the same universe as Eric Milton. Carson may have struggled some, but the team won the division as recently as last season. Comparing him to Eric Milton is just absurd.

Plus Milton had almost complete control over his performance. A QB has to rely so much more on teammates.

Roy Tucker
01-24-2011, 02:46 PM
Whether or not Palmer is the QB going into the future is a valid question. And it also depends if bengal management wants to do anything to remedy what is "sticking in his craw" (as Brown put it).

But when your long-time stand-up guy gives up on the team, that speaks volumes. The Bengals are getting about as dysfunctional as you can get.

And I very much doubt this will help season ticket sales.

Stray
01-24-2011, 02:49 PM
I couldn't get mad at Chad when he wanted out and I can't get mad at Carson for wanting out. Both are and were part of the problem, but it doesn't even matter to me. It's a joke of a franchise so I can't blame anyone for wanting out.

That said, Carson will have to back up his threat. Mike won't trade him no matter what, so he'll just have to go ahead and retire and leave all that money on the table. I don't see it happening.

MWM
01-24-2011, 03:06 PM
I couldn't get mad at Chad when he wanted out and I can't get mad at Carson for wanting out. Both are and were part of the problem, but it doesn't even matter to me. It's a joke of a franchise so I can't blame anyone for wanting out.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I can totally understand how no amount of money could make playing for this miserable franchise worth it.

Caveat Emperor
01-24-2011, 03:15 PM
Am I the only one who sees this as a fairly transparent attempt to get Chad Ochocinco off the team or Bratkowski canned as the offensive coordinator?

LoganBuck
01-24-2011, 03:26 PM
Am I the only one who sees this as a fairly transparent attempt to get Chad Ochocinco off the team or Bratkowski canned as the offensive coordinator?

This

CTA513
01-24-2011, 03:48 PM
Am I the only one who sees this as a fairly transparent attempt to get Chad Ochocinco off the team or Bratkowski canned as the offensive coordinator?

In the current offense he just doesn't seem to have the type of control that other teams allow veteran QBs to have.

durl
01-24-2011, 03:52 PM
Plus Milton had almost complete control over his performance. A QB has to rely so much more on teammates.

Bingo!

Even a great QB will have a hard time winning if the rest of the offense can't do their job.

MWM
01-24-2011, 04:05 PM
Am I the only one who sees this as a fairly transparent attempt to get Chad Ochocinco off the team or Bratkowski canned as the offensive coordinator?

Could be, but it's hard to know unless you're inside Palmer's head. I don't think any of us can comprehend what it's like for people as competitive as guys like Palmer who play QB in the NFL to be stuck in a hopeless situation like playing for the Bengals. He's played hard and tried to put on a positive public face. But he's not stupid, he sees even better than any of us the prospect of continuing to play for Mike Brown's franchise.

And maybe the thought is so unappealing to him, that he'd rather retire than continue to have a showing like he did this past year. Who could blame him. Just because he makes a lot of money does not mean he doesn't feel the same emotions that the rest of us feel about our jobs. I can totally get how a guy like him would rather retire than continue to be a part of the Bengals. Was Barry Sanders' similar plea transparent?

Puffy
01-24-2011, 05:10 PM
Correct me if I am wrong here cause I thought I heard this but I just didn't pay attention as the Giants were blowing 20 point leads to the freakin Eagles, but didn't Palmer have his best games of the year during the last couple of games when both Chad and T.O. were out of lineup?

Its gotta be tough throwing to one diva - but two? Keeping those two happy with enough throws has to make any QB gunshy to ever look anywhere else on field and has to effect performance, IMO.

Anyway, I like Palmer - hope he gets away (not to Redskins though) and becomes relevant again

Reds4Life
01-24-2011, 07:06 PM
Are you guys forgetting that Palmer pushed the Bengals to sign TO? They worked out in the offseason together, and Palmer was one of the reasons the Bengals finally signed him. I doubt this is because he wants him off the team, unless there was a major falling out.

As for Brat, they only thing I can say is, if the guy had any clue at all, and actually gave a crap about this franchise (instead of just collecting a paycheck), he would resign. When you have this many players wanting you fired, that should tell you something. If Brown doesn't have the guts to do it, then Brat should do it himself and bow out gracefully. If Brown does truly like the guy that much, give him a different job in the organization, one that is off the field.

CTA513
01-24-2011, 07:10 PM
Correct me if I am wrong here cause I thought I heard this but I just didn't pay attention as the Giants were blowing 20 point leads to the freakin Eagles, but didn't Palmer have his best games of the year during the last couple of games when both Chad and T.O. were out of lineup?

Its gotta be tough throwing to one diva - but two? Keeping those two happy with enough throws has to make any QB gunshy to ever look anywhere else on field and has to effect performance, IMO.

Anyway, I like Palmer - hope he gets away (not to Redskins though) and becomes relevant again

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/CTA513/palmersimpson.jpg

cincrazy
01-24-2011, 09:14 PM
I think this is all much to do about nothing. I'm sure Carson would like to leave. This is his try at escaping the jungle before he dies of dehydration. Unfortunately for him, the rescue team isn't coming. If anything, he hurt his chances of being traded by asking for a trade. Mike stood up to Chad, and he'll stand up to Carson.

And let's be real, Carson is NOT walking away from that kind of money. Period. End of discussion. If he has any plans whatsoever of maintaining his current lifestlye beyond a few years, he's not walking away. No question he's made a significant amount of money in his career. That doesn't mean I think he'll walk away from boatloads more.

Carson will be a Bengal next year. The Bengals get an easier schedule, they'll throw up an 7-9 or 8-8, and to Mr. Brown everything will be ok.

Redsfaithful
01-24-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't think money has anything to do with it in any fashion. Carson didn't grow up poor and he's made more money than he'll spend in his life, many times over. All reports are that he's not a conspicuous consumer.

I really don't know how this will play out. I don't see Mike Brown budging, so it'll be up to Carson whether he really wants to retire or not. Brown might throw him a bone so he can save face.

WMR
01-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Carson has hardly been good these past couple seasons but I can't blame anyone for wanting to get away from Mike Brown.

The clock is ticking on Carson's career and I'm sure he's more aware of that than anyone.

All that being typed, Mikey won't budge and Carson won't leave 50 mil on the table, no matter how much being a Bungle sucks.

Tony Cloninger
01-24-2011, 10:34 PM
Great post, Cloninger.


Thanks. I know Palmer is going to lose when it comes to this beacuse if brown knows one thing...it's to win stare down contests (like the stadium deal) and basically bend players to his will.

WVRed
01-24-2011, 10:44 PM
The only team I could really see being a possibility for Palmer's services is Seattle. It may be the best fit for both sides as Palmer could re-establish himself in a weak division with his former college coach calling the plays. They might be the only team willing to surrender a first round pick as well (25th overall).

What worries me the most is that if Palmer leaves, its all but inevitable that Cam Newton will be the pick at no 4. It's Akili Smith all over again. I almost wonder if Tennessee would consider a straight up VY for Palmer trade.

That being said, it doesn't matter. All My Bengals will continue next season with the current cast intact.

Mario-Rijo
01-24-2011, 10:58 PM
Carson has hardly been good these past couple seasons but I can't blame anyone for wanting to get away from Mike Brown.

The clock is ticking on Carson's career and I'm sure he's more aware of that than anyone.

All that being typed, Mikey won't budge and Carson won't leave 50 mil on the table, no matter how much being a Bungle sucks.

I disagree. A guy like Carson doesn't go public with this type of thing unless he is prepared to do just what he says he will do. Perhaps Mike can appease him with some type of concessions but the time for that may have already passed. If Carson goes I may have to strongly consider it myself. Not because of the player that is leaving but why he is leaving. This whole thing is quite unbelievable to me.

Razor Shines
01-24-2011, 11:02 PM
I disagree. A guy like Carson doesn't go public with this type of thing unless he is prepared to do just what he says he will do. Perhaps Mike can appease him with some type of concessions but the time for that may have already passed. If Carson goes I may have to strongly consider it myself. Not because of the player that is leaving but why he is leaving. This whole thing is quite unbelievable to me.

I thought it was reported he said "he would consider retiring". Seems like he left himself an easy out if he doesn't get what he wants.

Tony Cloninger
01-24-2011, 11:19 PM
You know....now that I think about it...it is an insult to the Titanic to compare it to the bengals FO. I still think the Titanic has a better chance of making it than the Brown Clowns do.

Reds/Flyers Fan
01-24-2011, 11:38 PM
You know....now that I think about it...it is an insult to the Titanic to compare it to the bengals FO. I still think the Titanic has a better chance of making it than the Brown Clowns do.

Raise the Titanic!

Unfortunately it's broken up 2.5 miles under the surface of the angry, ice-infested North Atlantic. But if all the world's resources were simultaneously concentrated on this solitary project: build multiple submersibles capable of heavy construction work at that depth, train underwater construction crews to work rebuild a ship with robot arms, somehow move a 100-year-old rusting ship underwater to begin to reassemble the shattered hull, begin to weld it back together, dig it out of 100 feet of mud that it's buried in, fill it with air or helium or something to rise it to the surface, tow it into shore, dry dock it and finish exhaustive repairs and put in modern engines and equipment ...

yea, I guess that would be easier than Mike Brown leading the Bengals to a Super Bowl.

redsfandan
01-25-2011, 02:39 AM
The only team I could really see being a possibility for Palmer's services is Seattle. It may be the best fit for both sides as Palmer could re-establish himself in a weak division with his former college coach calling the plays. They might be the only team willing to surrender a first round pick as well (25th overall).

What worries me the most is that if Palmer leaves, its all but inevitable that Cam Newton will be the pick at no 4. It's Akili Smith all over again. I almost wonder if Tennessee would consider a straight up VY for Palmer trade.

That being said, it doesn't matter. All My Bengals will continue next season with the current cast intact.

I'd love to hear Burbank give his take on all this right about now.

webbbj
01-25-2011, 02:48 AM
palmer should retire right now. Mike Brown is so dumb he would then release him. then palmer un retires and signs w/ who he wants or who wants him.

then the bengals should sign VY and draft cam newton. bring in plaxico buress if hes available. if their gonna suck might as well be interesting.

Eric_the_Red
01-25-2011, 07:11 AM
palmer should retire right now. Mike Brown is so dumb he would then release him. then palmer un retires and signs w/ who he wants or who wants him.

then the bengals should sign VY and draft cam newton. bring in plaxico buress if hes available. if their gonna suck might as well be interesting.

Ask Boomer Esiason how well that worked for him. Not very. Mikey would not release Carson.

bucksfan2
01-25-2011, 09:25 AM
Ask Boomer Esiason how well that worked for him. Not very. Mikey would not release Carson.

After Boomer's resurgence as the Bengals QB late in his career he was entertaining the idea of coming back and playing for the Bengals. Around the same time MNF offered him the color job in the booth. Mike Brown told Boomer to take the MNF job because he could not provide the opportunity that MNF could. I think Boomer made the right decision to hang it up and enter the broadcasting role.

Sea Ray
01-25-2011, 10:12 AM
The national folks are sure clueless. This morning on ESPN's Mike and Mike, Herm Edwards was under the impression that Bengal fans were fed up with Carson Palmer and wouldn't care if he left. A half hour later, Mike Golic was saying how pleased the fans were with management and the direction of the team after 2009.

Do these guys know how out of it they sound? Bengal fans have never been pleased with management or how they're directing this team. The biggest Mike Brown supporters are indifferent to him as opposed to outright hatred. And Greenie keeps referring to Bengals President Mike Brown. Does he know that Mike Brown is also the owner? I'm not so sure

Tony Cloninger
01-25-2011, 11:21 AM
The national folks are sure clueless. This morning on ESPN's Mike and Mike, Herm Edwards was under the impression that Bengal fans were fed up with Carson Palmer and wouldn't care if he left. A half hour later, Mike Golic was saying how pleased the fans were with management and the direction of the team after 2009.

Do these guys know how out of it they sound? Bengal fans have never been pleased with management or how they're directing this team. The biggest Mike Brown supporters are indifferent to him as opposed to outright hatred. And Greenie keeps referring to Bengals President Mike Brown. Does he know that Mike Brown is also the owner? I'm not so sure



Can someone call in and question these 2 bozos?

Tony Cloninger
01-25-2011, 11:24 AM
Barry Sanders did this with the Lions as well. Was tired of the direction....the way the Lions were run. He retired after Bobby Ross was brought in as a coach. I culled this from what Barry stated at the time around he was retiring and people could not believe it.

"Several years after retirement, and repeated refusals to discuss the abruptness of it, Sanders finally admitted that the culture of losing in the Lions' organization was too much to deal with even though he said that he could still play. He explained that it robbed him of his competitive spirit, and he saw no reason to believe things were going to improve. Although Detroit had made the playoffs the season prior to his retirement (losing to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers 20-10 on the road in a 1998 NFC Wild Card game), Detroit drafted quarterback Charlie Batch in the second round of the 1998 NFL Draft. It became apparent that Batch would become Detroit's full time starter the next season, and Sanders seemed unwilling to embrace yet another change in the Lions' seemingly endless carousel of quarterbacks and offensive philosophies. He had also gone on record to criticize Detroit's front office (most notably Chuck Schmidt) for releasing Pro Bowl center Kevin Glover for salary cap reasons. Glover was an underrated player and close friend of Sanders in Detroit. He stated there were tears in his eyes as the Lions lost in the playoffs to Tampa in 1998, because he knew in his heart he was never going to play another game for Detroit - "I sobbed for 3 months."[10]
There was wide spread speculation that Sanders' retirement was a calculated move on his behalf to orchestrate a trade to a more legitimate contender. The Green Bay Packers and Miami Dolphins were both considered among the front runners in the negotiations. Detroit was either unable to find an attractive enough offer, or unwilling to negotiate altogether with other teams. It had been a long standing practice for the Detroit Lions to not accommodate players' requests for trades."

webbbj
01-25-2011, 11:35 AM
The national folks are sure clueless. This morning on ESPN's Mike and Mike, Herm Edwards was under the impression that Bengal fans were fed up with Carson Palmer and wouldn't care if he left. A half hour later, Mike Golic was saying how pleased the fans were with management and the direction of the team after 2009.

Do these guys know how out of it they sound? Bengal fans have never been pleased with management or how they're directing this team. The biggest Mike Brown supporters are indifferent to him as opposed to outright hatred. And Greenie keeps referring to Bengals President Mike Brown. Does he know that Mike Brown is also the owner? I'm not so sure

they are clueless but these quotes are not that bad.

the first quote. I dont think pple would really care if palmer left but on the same token i think most pple are on Palmers side and think that he is doing the right thing here and would like to see him do well somewhere else while the bengals start over.

after the 2009 season fans were excited with the direction the season was going. I think pple liked the draft, bringing in TO brought excitement and huge expectations. But yes I cant say pple were pleased w/ management. I think you would say they were in this direction in Spite of Mike Brown

third quote: How their directing or running the team is different than what direction the team was going in after 2009. Right now at this time, Obv everyone knows this is a trainwreck.

And overall for the last 20 years no one has ever thought we were one of the better managed teams. But from 2004-2006, I think its fair to say fans liked the direction the team was going. And Going into this season there was definitely big expectations.

Sea Ray
01-25-2011, 11:40 AM
Barry Sanders did this with the Lions as well. Was tired of the direction....the way the Lions were run. He retired after Bobby Ross was brought in as a coach. I culled this from what Barry stated at the time around he was retiring and people could not believe it.

"Several years after retirement, and repeated refusals to discuss the abruptness of it, Sanders finally admitted that the culture of losing in the Lions' organization was too much to deal with even though he said that he could still play. He explained that it robbed him of his competitive spirit, and he saw no reason to believe things were going to improve. Although Detroit had made the playoffs the season prior to his retirement (losing to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers 20-10 on the road in a 1998 NFC Wild Card game), Detroit drafted quarterback Charlie Batch in the second round of the 1998 NFL Draft. It became apparent that Batch would become Detroit's full time starter the next season, and Sanders seemed unwilling to embrace yet another change in the Lions' seemingly endless carousel of quarterbacks and offensive philosophies. He had also gone on record to criticize Detroit's front office (most notably Chuck Schmidt) for releasing Pro Bowl center Kevin Glover for salary cap reasons. Glover was an underrated player and close friend of Sanders in Detroit. He stated there were tears in his eyes as the Lions lost in the playoffs to Tampa in 1998, because he knew in his heart he was never going to play another game for Detroit - "I sobbed for 3 months."[10]
There was wide spread speculation that Sanders' retirement was a calculated move on his behalf to orchestrate a trade to a more legitimate contender. The Green Bay Packers and Miami Dolphins were both considered among the front runners in the negotiations. Detroit was either unable to find an attractive enough offer, or unwilling to negotiate altogether with other teams. It had been a long standing practice for the Detroit Lions to not accommodate players' requests for trades."

Barry really screwed the Lions, unlike Carson now. He waited until training camp to announce his retirement. In fairness to the team he should have made his wishes known before the draft

IslandRed
01-25-2011, 01:14 PM
We've seen this movie before, in any number of other situations where a star player is stuck in an otherwise sad-sack operation. Half the sports fans in the world think he's a selfish malcontent if he tries to force his way out, the other half rip him for caring more about cashing paychecks than winning if he doesn't. Life goes on.

Yachtzee
01-25-2011, 05:20 PM
owners get rid of players all the time when they are under contract. So its ok for them to not honor the contract but its not okay for a player to try and force their way out?



Owners are allowed to cut players under the terms of NFL Contracts. The agents and players of the NFL have chosen to take contracts with huge signing bonuses in lieu of guaranteed money. They get paid a substantial portion of their money before they even play a game, the understanding being that, if they get cut, they get to keep that money. The quid-pro-quo for that is that players are expected to honor their contracts unless they 1) retire, or 2) renegotiate the contract. In fact, players often renegotiate their contracts to include fictional "backloaded" years for salary cap purposes. They get a bunch of money up front, get a decent salary, and then have a year where the contract kicks in a bunch of money where the player and the team both know they'll either have to renegotiate (and give the player another signing bonus) to stay under the cap or cut the player loose (allowing him to negotiate with other teams and, once again get a fat signing bonus).

My problem with the whole signing bonus situation is that some agents try to orchestrate things so that the renegotiation period comes sooner rather than later, especially if the player just switched agents. The agent doesn't get any money under the old contract, so they want the player to push for a new contract or a trade so that the new agent can make his money on a new deal. Of course, under salary cap rules, the teams are allowed to spread the cap-hit of the bonus money over the term of the contract. However, if a player gets traded or released, that bonus money gets accelerated into the current year of the contract, meaning lost money for the team under the cap.

Now with the uncapped year, this doesn't mean much, but depending on how the CBA negotiations go, the cap could return and we'd still be dealing with this problem.

If the cap comes back, I think that if players continue to throw tantrums in order to orchestrate a trade or release before the cap hit for the signing bonus expires, there needs to be a way to allow teams to recover that cap space. If they did that, then maybe Ochocinco would have been gone already. Part of the reason MB keeps some of these malcontents around is because he doesn't want to take the cap-hit to get rid of some of these guys.

Kingspoint
01-25-2011, 06:00 PM
Thanks. I know Palmer is going to lose when it comes to this beacuse if brown knows one thing...it's to win stare down contests (like the stadium deal) and basically bend players to his will.

I truly don't think Carson will lose.

Remember the thread we had in the non-sports chatter about where would be the best place to retire? I'm pretty sure that San Diego won hands down.

It's certainly my choice for retirement and many others I know for retirement. The weather is perfect for most of the year. The only downfall is that it takes six figures a year to live comfortably. It can be done for slightly less if you're not raising a family, aka Pacman Jones.

Money isn't an issue for Carson, nor should it be for anyone once they've reached $15M+ in savings. If you have half a brain, you, your children, and your children's children should all be set for life. You could put half of it in a Market Index Fund for the next 100 years and let the dividends that it earns be distributed among the offspring in a quarterly basis, where none of them get to touch the original money. It's pretty easy to set up. The interest can be reinvested, and/or the money can not begin to be distributed for 50 years so that it's guaranteed to grow. The biggest danger is that the economy has become a World Economy and it's very possible that the United States is the 10th to 20th leading economy in the World 75 years from now. I doubt that to be true, but it's always possible.

The bottom line is that Carson and his children are set for life, and $50M more won't make a bit of difference in their lives at this point. He's not some gangsta rappa wannabe who's trying to impress his homies with how much money he can waste and throw around. He's frugal. If he and Chad went out for Dinner, there'd be a half-hour stare down to see who's going to pick up the check. Chad would eventually win and Carson would pick up the check.

SeeinRed
01-25-2011, 06:12 PM
I truly don't think Carson will lose.

Remember the thread we had in the non-sports chatter about where would be the best place to retire? I'm pretty sure that San Diego won hands down.

It's certainly my choice for retirement and many others I know for retirement. The weather is perfect for most of the year. The only downfall is that it takes six figures a year to live comfortably. It can be done for slightly less if you're not raising a family, aka Pacman Jones.

Money isn't an issue for Carson, nor should it be for anyone once they've reached $15M+ in savings. If you have half a brain, you, your children, and your children's children should all be set for life. You could put half of it in a Market Index Fund for the next 100 years and let the dividends that it earns be distributed among the offspring in a quarterly basis, where none of them get to touch the original money. It's pretty easy to set up. The interest can be reinvested, and/or the money can not begin to be distributed for 50 years so that it's guaranteed to grow. The biggest danger is that the economy has become a World Economy and it's very possible that the United States is the 10th to 20th leading economy in the World 75 years from now. I doubt that to be true, but it's always possible.

The bottom line is that Carson and his children are set for life, and $50M more won't make a bit of difference in their lives at this point. He's not some gangsta rappa wannabe who's trying to impress his homies with how much money he can waste and throw around. He's frugal. If he and Chad went out for Dinner, there'd be a half-hour stare down to see who's going to pick up the check. Chad would eventually win and Carson would pick up the check.


I see your point, but I truly don't think Carson will retire. IMO, its an attempt to gain some leverage and I don't think MB is going to bite. Honestly, as a Bengals fan the best way this could work out is for Mike to make some changes to appease Carson, and the franchise gets better as a result. That isn't happening, so the best realistic outcome is that the Bengals can get some real value in trading Carson and they both move on. I've thought about it for a while and I truly do believe it is time for a split if changes aren't going to be made.

From Mike Brown's standpoint though, you don't just give up your franchise QB without a good return. I think John Thorton said it best when he said that Carson has more value to the Bengals than to other teams. You have to get a good deal. You don't just dump him to meet his demands.

Kingspoint
01-25-2011, 06:40 PM
I see your point, but I truly don't think Carson will retire. IMO, its an attempt to gain some leverage and I don't think MB is going to bite. Honestly, as a Bengals fan the best way this could work out is for Mike to make some changes to appease Carson, and the franchise gets better as a result. That isn't happening, so the best realistic outcome is that the Bengals can get some real value in trading Carson and they both move on. I've thought about it for a while and I truly do believe it is time for a split if changes aren't going to be made.

From Mike Brown's standpoint though, you don't just give up your franchise QB without a good return. I think John Thorton said it best when he said that Carson has more value to the Bengals than to other teams. You have to get a good deal. You don't just dump him to meet his demands.

It's been "guestimated" that the Broncos will require a 2nd Round pick from someone for Kyle Orton, that the Eagles want two first round picks for Kevin Kolb, so I would venture that with Carson's age, declining skills, and inability to run at all, that no team would be willing to give up more than a 3rd Round pick for Carson. Someone who has shown a propensity to overpay (Seattle) and believe that his long-ago past is more indicative of his future than his recent past (Pete Carroll of Seattle) might be willing to trade a 2nd Round pick for his services. The money shouldn't be an issue for Paul Allen (the DOW was at 12,000 yesterday, and Carson's contract could be restructured to include a new signing bonus, while lowering the cap on years 2011, 2012 and 2013, though nothing can be done until there's a new CBA anyway).

Roy Tucker
01-25-2011, 06:41 PM
They had Boomer Esiason on Sportstalk last night. I guess when the fired Sam Wyche and hired Dave Shula, Boomer went to Mike Brown and asked for a trade (Boomer said when he knows the offense better than the coach, its time to leave). Brown said he couldn't trade him that season but he would before the next one. And he did. But I think all that happened outside the press and the public and nobody knew it happened.

IslandRed
01-25-2011, 07:00 PM
Owners are allowed to cut players under the terms of NFL Contracts. The agents and players of the NFL have chosen to take contracts with huge signing bonuses in lieu of guaranteed money. They get paid a substantial portion of their money before they even play a game, the understanding being that, if they get cut, they get to keep that money. The quid-pro-quo for that is that players are expected to honor their contracts unless they 1) retire, or 2) renegotiate the contract.

I think you have the cause and effect backwards. They're not choosing the bonuses instead of guaranteed money. I'm sure many of the players would love a baseball-style guaranteed multi-year deal, but NFL management hardly ever offers them, and for completely justifiable reason -- every player is one snap from being a has-been. So in that respect, NFL contracts are the same as they always were -- "we'll pay you $X per year for Y years or until we don't feel like it anymore, whichever comes first."

For that reason, the players obviously prefer to get as much money up front as possible, since it only takes one shot to the knee and they might never see the last five years of that six-year deal.

The salary cap obviously plays into the dynamic, but it doesn't change the fundamental motivations of either side.

In practice, sometimes I agree with a player's attempt to get a new deal and sometimes I don't. Depends on the circumstances.

Kingspoint
01-25-2011, 11:27 PM
...NFL contracts are the same as they always were -- "we'll pay you $X per year for Y years or until we don't feel like it anymore, whichever comes first."



Because Gene Upshaw was a weak Union leader, and as a result the Union was incredibly weak. It's worse now than it was under Upshaw. The owners will get whatever they want. Unfortunately, it looks like a lock that there's going to be an 18-game schedule, which is like putting troops through a war during the winter months (Wars would usually have an assumed cease-fire during the Winters up until about 150 years ago). There's just so much the human body can take. The owners aren't being very smart on this one, but they've got it right with putting together a Rookie Salary Cap, so that more Veterans can be on teams, and thus improving the overall game.

bucksfan2
01-26-2011, 09:18 AM
I truly don't think Carson will lose.

Remember the thread we had in the non-sports chatter about where would be the best place to retire? I'm pretty sure that San Diego won hands down.

It's certainly my choice for retirement and many others I know for retirement. The weather is perfect for most of the year. The only downfall is that it takes six figures a year to live comfortably. It can be done for slightly less if you're not raising a family, aka Pacman Jones.

Money isn't an issue for Carson, nor should it be for anyone once they've reached $15M+ in savings. If you have half a brain, you, your children, and your children's children should all be set for life. You could put half of it in a Market Index Fund for the next 100 years and let the dividends that it earns be distributed among the offspring in a quarterly basis, where none of them get to touch the original money. It's pretty easy to set up. The interest can be reinvested, and/or the money can not begin to be distributed for 50 years so that it's guaranteed to grow. The biggest danger is that the economy has become a World Economy and it's very possible that the United States is the 10th to 20th leading economy in the World 75 years from now. I doubt that to be true, but it's always possible.

The bottom line is that Carson and his children are set for life, and $50M more won't make a bit of difference in their lives at this point. He's not some gangsta rappa wannabe who's trying to impress his homies with how much money he can waste and throw around. He's frugal. If he and Chad went out for Dinner, there'd be a half-hour stare down to see who's going to pick up the check. Chad would eventually win and Carson would pick up the check.

I am going to take you to task on the last two paragraphs. If an ordinary person like us have 15M+ in savings we would be set for life. Or at least I am speaking of myself. I don't like an extravagant life style. I don't own multiple multi-million dollar houses. If I fly I fly coach. I don't drive a car that my payment is more than a house payment. I could go on and on. There could be issues with a guy like Carson who lives the extravagant life style but the money quits flowing in. His earning power is a fraction of what it once was. Just look at him now, he has at least 3 houses that I know of. One in Cincy, one in California, and one parcel of land he just bought ~$3-$4M. A quick search on the web and you can find his house in Cincy is worth $2M and I have no idea how much the house he owns in California is worth. Just think how much money he has to pay in property taxes and insurance alone in a given year. That is a lot of cash that is outstanding and as we all have seen multi million dollar houses aren't selling in this market.

I am not saying Carson is one of them but there are a lot of professional athletes who end up broke shortly after their playing days are over. They are used to living the highlife, spending the money they have. When their playing days are over. He most likely won't starve but he also hasn't been on the national advertising stage like a guy like Payton Manning, LT, Polamalu, Ray Lewis, Brett Favre, even Eli Manning have. And if he leave Cincy his professional base will have to be rebuilt as a middle of the pack aging QB.

I guess my point is from a financial security standpoint we just don't know. We can assume one way or another, but we really don't know.

Sea Ray
01-26-2011, 10:49 AM
According to Mort on Mike and Mike this morning Carson has $30-33mill stashed in the bank and his wife would really like for him to ride off into the sunset. To my eyes there were times last year that Carson did not look "engaged". I want to see a win at all costs fire and instead I see a QB who isn't sure if it's worth it anymore

MWM
01-26-2011, 11:33 AM
Awesome.

YouTube - Mike Brown and Art Rooney II, EP1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQi4H7E0xk&feature=player_embedded)

gonelong
01-26-2011, 11:38 AM
According to Mort on Mike and Mike this morning Carson has $30-33mill stashed in the bank and his wife would really like for him to ride off into the sunset. To my eyes there were times last year that Carson did not look "engaged". I want to see a win at all costs fire and instead I see a QB who isn't sure if it's worth it anymore

I see the same thing, and frankly, I can't fault the guy for it.

As a Bengals fan, I want to be traded too.

GL

WVRed
01-26-2011, 02:08 PM
palmer should retire right now. Mike Brown is so dumb he would then release him. then palmer un retires and signs w/ who he wants or who wants him.

then the bengals should sign VY and draft cam newton. bring in plaxico buress if hes available. if their gonna suck might as well be interesting.

Palmer would retire and not fulfill the duration of his contract. Mike Brown isn't dumb enough to release him and watch him possibly burn the Bengals in a different uniform. Once the contract expires in four years, Palmer is free to sign with any team, but by that time he will have been out of the league for so long and it will be next to impossible to find work.

I would be all for taking a chance on Vince Young if he is released. I wouldn't give up a pick for him, but if used correctly (unlikely to happen under Bratkowski), he would be a perfect player for the wildcat.

Yachtzee
01-26-2011, 03:00 PM
I think you have the cause and effect backwards. They're not choosing the bonuses instead of guaranteed money. I'm sure many of the players would love a baseball-style guaranteed multi-year deal, but NFL management hardly ever offers them, and for completely justifiable reason -- every player is one snap from being a has-been. So in that respect, NFL contracts are the same as they always were -- "we'll pay you $X per year for Y years or until we don't feel like it anymore, whichever comes first."

For that reason, the players obviously prefer to get as much money up front as possible, since it only takes one shot to the knee and they might never see the last five years of that six-year deal.

The salary cap obviously plays into the dynamic, but it doesn't change the fundamental motivations of either side.

In practice, sometimes I agree with a player's attempt to get a new deal and sometimes I don't. Depends on the circumstances.

I don't think that's necessarily true. You're assuming players have ever asked for guaranteed contracts. I think, based on what I've seen from NFL players, that they prefer the upfront money. NFL players have been notorious for getting all they can now without preparing for the future. Look at how retired NFL players handled their pensions. Gene Upshaw repeatedly warned the players not to draw their pensions early at age 45, while they were still healthy. Instead he told them to wait until they were 55, when they might need that money more. Unfortunately, too many players withdrew their pensions early, leaving them with very little left over as they got older. Then they whined about how little money they were getting and comparing it to how much money baseball players were getting (who I believe regularly waited until age 55 or older to draw their pensions). When Upshaw told them they already got their money, they threw him under the bus.

I haven't seen anything in the past that indicates whether owners like to pay out huge bonuses as opposed to guaranteed contracts. All I've seen is that owners have dealt with the salary cap and worked with agents to find the best way to fit contracts under the cap as it has existed. Since free agency began, their goal has been to entice players to play for them the best they can. I'm sure if some top free agents had started asking for guaranteed contracts, some owners would have given it to them if it meant that player came to their team instead of hoping on the plane to visit the next team. To me, it looks like contract structures, as driven by how the top free agents have preferred, are geared toward huge up front money and an unguaranteed back end.

I can understand why the players like to get their money sooner rather than later. Yes, NFL careers are shorter compared to other sports and a single hit can end a career. However, when you take all that upfront money, you have to make it last. You can't just keep trying to come back to your team (or the NFL Pension Fund) with a hammer trying to smash the piggy bank every time you want another big payday.

New York Red
01-26-2011, 03:40 PM
As a Bengals fan, I want to be traded too.
LOL ... funny, sad, true, etc. :beerme:

Sea Ray
01-26-2011, 03:48 PM
With the impending lockout, practically speaking, how does it behoove either party to trade him this year? The Bengals will be left without a QB and no time for a new one to learn our system. Carson will have very little time to learn another team's system. Brett Favre aside, you just don't plug a starting QB in a new system under those conditions and make it work.

Knowing this, cooler heads ought to prevail and get together to have a frank discussion of where we stand. The Bengals say "we understand your concerns and will work to accomplish the change you want to see. In the meantime let's agree to give it our all to win in 2011 and if things don't pan out, we will quietly work to move you in a manner that benefits the team and gives you the fresh start you desire."

Bottomline is: this is not the year to demand a trade. If MB had any PR sense he'd mention this to Reedy or Hobson. Breaking it to the public that Carson is asking the Bengals to do something that's impossible according to present NFL rules would really take the wind out of their sails

SeeinRed
01-26-2011, 06:40 PM
With the impending lockout, practically speaking, how does it behoove either party to trade him this year? The Bengals will be left without a QB and no time for a new one to learn our system. Carson will have very little time to learn another team's system. Brett Favre aside, you just don't plug a starting QB in a new system under those conditions and make it work.

Knowing this, cooler heads ought to prevail and get together to have a frank discussion of where we stand. The Bengals say "we understand your concerns and will work to accomplish the change you want to see. In the meantime let's agree to give it our all to win in 2011 and if things don't pan out, we will quietly work to move you in a manner that benefits the team and gives you the fresh start you desire."

Bottomline is: this is not the year to demand a trade. If MB had any PR sense he'd mention this to Reedy or Hobson. Breaking it to the public that Carson is asking the Bengals to do something that's impossible according to present NFL rules would really take the wind out of their sails

I completely agree, and honestly I think Carson and his agent realize how little leverage they have at this point. In order for Mike Brown to even think about trading him it has to make sense for the franchise. Right now, without a CBA in place it doesn't make as much sense to trade him. That is the reason I think the "trade me or I'm going to retire" talk came out. Trying to get all the leverage he can, though I don't think it will work.

Sea Ray
01-26-2011, 09:05 PM
Right now, without a CBA in place it doesn't make as much sense to trade him. That is the reason I think the "trade me or I'm going to retire" talk came out. Trying to get all the leverage he can, though I don't think it will work.


The thing is "right now" it's not within the NFL's rules to trade him at all. It has nothing to do with leverage or what makes sense. No NFL trades can be made after Oct 19th, 2010. There is no mechanism to allow trading of player contracts until a new CBA is signed

Boss-Hog
01-26-2011, 10:48 PM
I could be wrong but I thought the trade deadline was over once the regular season or playoffs end (similar to baseball). At that point, there would be a small window to trade him until the current CBA expires on 3/4 (though we all know he won't be traded this year, so it's a moot point).


The thing is "right now" it's not within the NFL's rules to trade him at all. It has nothing to do with leverage or what makes sense. No NFL trades can be made after Oct 19th, 2010. There is no mechanism to allow trading of player contracts until a new CBA is signed

Sea Ray
01-26-2011, 11:29 PM
I could be wrong but I thought the trade deadline was over once the regular season or playoffs end (similar to baseball). At that point, there would be a small window to trade him until the current CBA expires on 3/4 (though we all know he won't be traded this year, so it's a moot point).

It's my understanding that there can be no trades until the next "trading period" begins. For example look at these two NFL schedules , one for 2009, the other for 2010:

http://www.2010schedule.com/nfl/nfl-calendar/

http://www.bolthype.com/2009/02/nfl-calendar-of-dates-and-events-2009.html#

Both of them show a trading deadline for late Oct and a new trading period in late Feb/early March. If trading is allowed after the season then why specify a new trading period? For that reason I believe no trades of players are allowed after Oct 19th until the new trading period in the Spring.

Boss-Hog
01-26-2011, 11:36 PM
Based on those links, I would agree that you're right and my understanding was wrong. My confusion stems from having not read anywhere (outside of your post) that trading him is literally not possible - even if they wanted to do so. Most articles I've read termed it difficult, challenging, etc., but not impossible, due to the expiring CBA. It's a bizarre request to make if it can't be done, as it appears, until a new CBA is signed, though it's certainly not bizarre that a player would not want to play for the Bengals.


It's my understanding that there can be no trades until the next "trading period" begins. For example look at these two NFL schedules , one for 2009, the other for 2010:

http://www.2010schedule.com/nfl/nfl-calendar/

http://www.bolthype.com/2009/02/nfl-calendar-of-dates-and-events-2009.html#

Both of them show a trading deadline for late Oct and a new trading period in late Feb/early March. If trading is allowed after the season then why specify a new trading period? For that reason I believe no trades of players are allowed after Oct 19th until the new trading period in the Spring.

redsfandan
01-27-2011, 08:18 AM
I don't think that's necessarily true. You're assuming players have ever asked for guaranteed contracts. I think, based on what I've seen from NFL players, that they prefer the upfront money. NFL players have been notorious for getting all they can now without preparing for the future. Look at how retired NFL players handled their pensions. Gene Upshaw repeatedly warned the players not to draw their pensions early at age 45, while they were still healthy. Instead he told them to wait until they were 55, when they might need that money more. Unfortunately, too many players withdrew their pensions early, leaving them with very little left over as they got older. Then they whined about how little money they were getting and comparing it to how much money baseball players were getting (who I believe regularly waited until age 55 or older to draw their pensions). When Upshaw told them they already got their money, they threw him under the bus.


Source?

LoganBuck
01-27-2011, 08:19 AM
Based on those links, I would agree that you're right and my understanding was wrong. My confusion stems from having not read anywhere (outside of your post) that trading him is literally not possible - even if they wanted to do so. Most articles I've read termed it difficult, challenging, etc., but not impossible, due to the expiring CBA. It's a bizarre request to make if it can't be done, as it appears, until a new CBA is signed, though it's certainly not bizarre that a player would not want to play for the Bengals.

There is a lack of understanding about the CBA among the local media. I have heard many of them speculating that the Bengals have to trade Palmer before the CBA expires in March. But as Sea Ray's links points out, the actual trading deadline was Oct 19, 2010.

Sea Ray
01-27-2011, 09:24 AM
There is a lack of understanding about the CBA among the local media. I have heard many of them speculating that the Bengals have to trade Palmer before the CBA expires in March. But as Sea Ray's links points out, the actual trading deadline was Oct 19, 2010.

I think the local media has done a horrible job reporting on this whole issue beginning with how they let a national source scoop them. Where were our local investigative reporters following this after Carson left town with a "no comment" following Marvin's presser? Now they owe it to the fans to explain this whole trade thing. The problem, other than laziness, is that it would take the heat off of Mike Brown to explain how a trade is not possible

Sea Ray
01-27-2011, 10:03 AM
There is a lack of understanding about the CBA among the local media. I have heard many of them speculating that the Bengals have to trade Palmer before the CBA expires in March. But as Sea Ray's links points out, the actual trading deadline was Oct 19, 2010.

The local media is aware of this fact:


Even if the Bengals were to be receptive to offers, no trades can happen until a new collective bargaining agreement is reached.http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2011/01/24/mike-brown-on-palmer-we-arent-looking-for-offers/

But it's been packed deep within their articles. I'd like to hear Palmer's agent respond to this fact and ask what he'd like the Bengals to do about it. And does he really think it'd be in Palmer's best interests to pursue a trade this year if there's a shortened training camp.

Hoosier Red
01-27-2011, 10:09 AM
Source?

There was a good article in Sports Illustrated a few years ago which referenced this. There are a lot of former players who complained about Upshaw not protecting their rights, but they broke down every time there was even a hint of a lockout. Part of the reason the baseball players have such a good system was that they were willing to strike and stick together longer than the owners. The Owners in football are 1) more united and 2) have an equal chance of making money even if the players aren't playing.

I'll see if I can dig the article up. Edit: Found it. Though this article is very sympathetic to Upshaw's POV, so I wouldn't take it as fact.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/nfl/01/31/upshaw0214/index.html

IslandRed
01-27-2011, 03:35 PM
The local media is aware of this fact:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2011/01/24/mike-brown-on-palmer-we-arent-looking-for-offers/

But it's been packed deep within their articles. I'd like to hear Palmer's agent respond to this fact and ask what he'd like the Bengals to do about it.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember Carson saying "trade me now" or "trade me before the draft" or anything else where the "but we can't!" line of reasoning is anything more than a temporary dodge. Palmer really doesn't have to back up his words with action until either training camp opens or the season starts, and both of those things are dependent upon the new CBA already being done.

Roy Tucker
01-27-2011, 03:40 PM
So who did the leaking of Palmer wanting a trade? Was it Palmer's agent or was it someone on the Bengals?

Reds Fanatic
01-27-2011, 03:59 PM
So who did the leaking of Palmer wanting a trade? Was it Palmer's agent or was it someone on the Bengals?

I believe it was his agent. He first requested a trade from Mike Brown about a week ago. Since he was pretty much turned down I think his agent released his trade demands to try to force the Bengals to make a move.

Sea Ray
01-28-2011, 10:54 AM
I could be wrong, but I don't remember Carson saying "trade me now" or "trade me before the draft" or anything else where the "but we can't!" line of reasoning is anything more than a temporary dodge. Palmer really doesn't have to back up his words with action until either training camp opens or the season starts, and both of those things are dependent upon the new CBA already being done.

Technically speaking Carson hasn't said anything but what's "come out" and has not been denied by his agent or anyone else in his camp is: trade me (now) because if you don't I'll retire. The threat of retiring is pretty extreme. You don't hear that card being played very often thus it sure brings with it the connotation that he wants to be traded right away. What I'd love the local media to do is ask his agent, who does appear to be pretty accessible, what he suggests the Bengals do if this lockout goes into training camp? His response would tell me whether he's going to be reasonable about this or if he's willing to crash and burn for all concerned.

The bottomline is this: unless the current situation changes, it doesn't behoove either Carson or the Bengals to trade him before the 2011 season for the following reasons:

1)Carson will need a full training camp and preferably minicamp to get up to speed with a new team's scheme and to get in synch with his new players
2)Ditto for any Bengals new QB
3)Bengals need to know before the draft what they've got coming back in 2011

Mario-Rijo
01-29-2011, 01:28 PM
So who did the leaking of Palmer wanting a trade? Was it Palmer's agent or was it someone on the Bengals?

There was obviously some chatter somewhere about it quite some time ago because there is a guy on the Bengals.com board that stated Palmer was gonna do this very thing (via an inside source) and I believe his 1st post on the matter was somewhere around the mid/late December.

I don't know that any of this discussion we are having about what might Palmers agent say, CBA, etc. is worth having. This guy says it doesn't matter, it's a done deal, Palmer has 30 Mill in the bank and his wife wants him to hang 'em up. The only reason for the ultimatum is because Carson wants to win and so the compromise is he can play IF it isn't for the Bengals. This last sentence is just me speculating/piecing whats out there together but the rest is coming from the guy (via some inside source). The guy keeps saying "it won't matter he's gone" to virtually any and every scenario.

From what I gather, short of Marvin (this is a guess), Bratkowski, the QB coach Ken Zampese (former Martz protege) all being canned, Mike Brown stepping away from decision making responsibilities and perhaps a few other possible concessions we shouldn't expect to ever see Palmer in a Bengals logo of any kind ever again.

Boss-Hog
01-30-2011, 04:56 PM
Here's the latest on a trade being possible from Hobson:

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Uncertainty-greets-Bengals/88e725df-ef42-49e7-854a-27d3efb55bad


THE CBA: With no idea what economic system the NFL is going to adopt or when the CBA is going to be in place, business is virtually frozen. There is about a three-week window beginning early next month when teams can trade players, but a major signing involving a Johnathan Joseph-type deal looks to be virtually impossible because neither side knows the financial ramifications on a new landscape.

Sea Ray
01-31-2011, 10:31 AM
Here's the latest on a trade being possible from Hobson:

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Uncertainty-greets-Bengals/88e725df-ef42-49e7-854a-27d3efb55bad

The media is not in agreement on this. Reedy is steadfast that no trades involving players are allowed until the new CBA. Hobson thinks trades can happen after the Super Bowl until March 4th. Interestingly Mike and Mike on ESPN this morning were discussing this very issue and they agree with Reedy. They also discussed whether it would be prudent to trade a QB under these circumstances because he would have so much to learn in a short time and also needs reps. They were talking about Kevin Kolb but it would apply to any QB. I tend to agree with Reedy and that Hobson is mistaken. I guess we'll soon see who's right. It'll be interesting to see if any albeit minor trades happen in February. That'll show who was right

Boss-Hog
01-31-2011, 06:43 PM
The media is not in agreement on this. Reedy is steadfast that no trades involving players are allowed until the new CBA. Hobson thinks trades can happen after the Super Bowl until March 4th. Interestingly Mike and Mike on ESPN this morning were discussing this very issue and they agree with Reedy. They also discussed whether it would be prudent to trade a QB under these circumstances because he would have so much to learn in a short time and also needs reps. They were talking about Kevin Kolb but it would apply to any QB. I tend to agree with Reedy and that Hobson is mistaken. I guess we'll soon see who's right. It'll be interesting to see if any albeit minor trades happen in February. That'll show who was right
I think you (and Reedy) are right, too - just wanted to pass along that Hobson is still singing a different tune. I suspect he's wrong based on everything I've read, except from him, but I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough.

Tadasimha
02-01-2011, 03:57 PM
There's talk on ESPN that the Eagles will put the franchise tag on Mike Vick and will be looking to trade Kevin Kolb. At this point, I'd be willing to trade Palmer straight up for Kolb.

Redsfan320
02-01-2011, 04:43 PM
There's talk on ESPN that the Eagles will put the franchise tag on Mike Vick and will be looking to trade Kevin Kolb. At this point, I'd be willing to trade Palmer straight up for Kolb.

Oh yeah. In a heartbeat.

320

CTA513
02-01-2011, 04:48 PM
There's talk on ESPN that the Eagles will put the franchise tag on Mike Vick and will be looking to trade Kevin Kolb. At this point, I'd be willing to trade Palmer straight up for Kolb.

That trade wouldn't make sense for the Eagles since Kolb is younger and cheaper than Palmer.

Sea Ray
02-01-2011, 04:54 PM
That trade wouldn't make sense for the Eagles since Kolb is younger and cheaper than Palmer.

Nor would it make sense for Palmer. It's not even worth discussing

Oxilon
02-01-2011, 05:04 PM
Never understood the hype around Kolb. Prior to this season, the only real action he saw was when he would fill in for McNabb when he was occasionally hurt or when it was in the mop-up role. And he didn't exactly light it up when named the starter this season. There was a reason Vick was named the starter and never looked back.

bucksfan2
02-02-2011, 09:07 AM
Never understood the hype around Kolb. Prior to this season, the only real action he saw was when he would fill in for McNabb when he was occasionally hurt or when it was in the mop-up role. And he didn't exactly light it up when named the starter this season. There was a reason Vick was named the starter and never looked back.

You could have said the same about Rodgers in Green Bay prior to Favre leaving. He never really looked impressive in mop up duty or when Favre went out of the game with an injury.

FWIW I would throw my lot behind Kolb over Vick. Vick will dazzle with his abilities but seems to me like a guy who continues to come up just short. Your non traditional QB's will wow you, but unless they learn the stay in the pocket they won't be successful over the long haul.

Boss-Hog
02-02-2011, 10:18 AM
Wasn't Steve Young fairly successful despite spending quite a bit of time outside the pocket? Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers both also leave the pocket routinely and they've done ok for themselves this year.

I think the better reason to be concerned about Vick long term is his durability; not simply because he's not a classic pocket passer.



FWIW I would throw my lot behind Kolb over Vick. Vick will dazzle with his abilities but seems to me like a guy who continues to come up just short. Your non traditional QB's will wow you, but unless they learn the stay in the pocket they won't be successful over the long haul.

bucksfan2
02-02-2011, 11:15 AM
Wasn't Steve Young fairly successful despite spending quite a bit of time outside the pocket? Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rodgers both also leave the pocket routinely and they've done ok for themselves this year.

I think the better reason to be concerned about Vick long term is his durability; not simply because he's not a classic pocket passer.

The only one who is remotely close to Vick is Young. Both Rodgers and Roethlisberger are pocket passers who move when the pocket is broken down or a WR doesn't open up. I would consider Young that way as well but who would freelance a little more. Vick is a guy who doesn't go though all of his progressions and takes off sooner than the guys you mentioned above. And yes the reason I am concerned about Vick and the reason why I wouldn't invest in him long term is his durability because he leaves the pocket so much.

Boss-Hog
02-02-2011, 12:43 PM
The only one who is remotely close to Vick is Young. Both Rodgers and Roethlisberger are pocket passers who move when the pocket is broken down or a WR doesn't open up. I would consider Young that way as well but who would freelance a little more. Vick is a guy who doesn't go though all of his progressions and takes off sooner than the guys you mentioned above. And yes the reason I am concerned about Vick and the reason why I wouldn't invest in him long term is his durability because he leaves the pocket so much.
Fair enough - I thought it was worth pointing out that he wouldn't be the first "non traditional" QB to be successful. My point in mentioning Roethlisberger and Rodgers is that they do not always "stay in the pocket" and are still pretty good QB's.

Cuban_Missile
02-09-2011, 01:06 PM
According to WCPO Channel 9 in Cincinnati


Channel 9 Sports has learned that Palmer is about to list his Indian Hill home for sale. A local Comey-Shepherd representative confirmed that preparations are being made to put Palmer's residence on the market, hopefully by March.

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/sports/football/bengals/carson-palmer%27s-house-going-up-for-sale

RBA
02-09-2011, 01:17 PM
According to WCPO Channel 9 in Cincinnati



http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/sports/football/bengals/carson-palmer%27s-house-going-up-for-sale


Time for a bigger home?

Mario-Rijo
02-09-2011, 01:19 PM
Time to make a play for Kevin Kolb, who now with this offense is a sound fit.

RedsBaron
02-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Carson, Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown are probably planning to share a house together, so Carson no longer needs his present house. ;)

Cuban_Missile
02-09-2011, 01:47 PM
Carson, Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown are probably planning to share a house together, so Carson no longer needs his present house. ;)

Ha yeah...Mike Brown wouldn't make it through training camp in a house with Carson. Then we would lose our QB to murder...

Mario-Rijo
02-09-2011, 04:05 PM
Ha yeah...Mike Brown wouldn't make it through training camp in a house with Carson. Then we would lose our QB to murder...

But we would get rid of Brown? Seems like a reasonable tradeoff. :KoolAid: :D

Redsfaithful
02-09-2011, 06:28 PM
I can't see Kevin Kolb being realistic. Outside of Brian Leonard and Reggie Nelson (kind of minor deals) I can't even remember the last time the Bengals made a trade.

They are going to take someone at #4. I just hope they luck into someone more comparable to Carson than to Akili/Klingler.

Redhook
02-09-2011, 07:49 PM
I love the Bengals and hope for a good team every year. Obviously, most years it doesn't come to fruition, but I still usually have some sort of hope. Not this upcoming year, however. The team is going to stink something fierce regardless if Palmer is here or not. I'm actually rooting for him to retire, even though I think they'll be worse without him, because this is one of the very few things that will piss Mike Brown off. If Mike Brown is irritated about this, then it's deemed a positive in my book. Sadly, that's where my satisfaction comes now as a Bengals fan: Mike Brown's disappointments. I'm all for upsetting that piece of garbage of a man. I despise him.

You know it's kind of weird being a Bengals fan. I'm happy when they win, but I'm equally happy when Mike Brown is irritated or the Steelers lose. Unfortunately, none of those scenarios happens enough.

As far as drafting a QB, I'd pass on this year. I don't see any of them being good for the long haul. Might as well sign a cheap veteran, tank this upcoming year, and hope for Luck next year.

Reds4Life
02-09-2011, 07:51 PM
He already has a home in San Diego, and his wife is from that area. It's possible they are going to move there full time and Carson will just rent a place during the season, if he returns.

I don't agree with fans doing it, but if he's PO'ed about garbage being on his lawn, he better not play for any NFL teams. Fans have done much worse.

Redhook
02-09-2011, 07:55 PM
I don't agree with fans doing it, but if he's PO'ed about garbage being on his lawn, he better not play for any NFL teams. Fans have done much worse.

Who wouldn't be PO'd if someone put garbage all over their yard? I know I'd be. That being said, this is not the reason he wants out of here. It's just a lame excuse to hide some of the real problems on why he wants out of here.

Mario-Rijo
02-10-2011, 07:16 AM
I can't see Kevin Kolb being realistic. Outside of Brian Leonard and Reggie Nelson (kind of minor deals) I can't even remember the last time the Bengals made a trade.

They are going to take someone at #4. I just hope they luck into someone more comparable to Carson than to Akili/Klingler.

But we do know how much emphasis Mike Brown puts on having a QB and Kolb is as good a fit as any available, another possibility might be Kyle Orton. The QB situation in the draft isn't ideal though unlike some I still like Locker just not sure he is worthy of selecting #4 and doubt he is available in the 2nd round. I've heard differing reviews on his accuracy which would be my biggest concern with any QB in this system. Some say his accuracy stinks, some say yours would to if you had his O-Line but that he still played decent considering them. If his accuracy is good I would try to get my hands on him. Either way the Bengals will need to acquire a QB (or 2) if Palmer does indeed take his ball and go home.

Hoosier Red
02-10-2011, 11:12 AM
I like the kid out of TCU or the kid out of Alabama. While both were in seriously run happy offenses, both are very accurate and to me that's the most important skill Also important, neither would require a first or even second round pick most likely.

IMO, since I'd not feel comfortable with any of the quarterbacks in the first round, I'm doubly hesitant to give them the money and the requisite implied playing time. I'd rather have a substandard competition at quarterback this year, if one of them surprises great, if not, I feel a lot better about the quarterbacks coming out next year anyway.

Sea Ray
02-10-2011, 11:54 AM
I don't see them picking a QB in rd 1.

webbbj
02-10-2011, 12:31 PM
how long does it take a private jet to get from cali to cincy? seems like a long commute to work.

Cuban_Missile
02-10-2011, 01:03 PM
I don't see them picking a QB in rd 1.

If we lose Carson we almost have to take a QB at #4

Boss-Hog
02-10-2011, 01:20 PM
But we do know how much emphasis Mike Brown puts on having a QB and Kolb is as good a fit as any available, another possibility might be Kyle Orton. The QB situation in the draft isn't ideal though unlike some I still like Locker just not sure he is worthy of selecting #4 and doubt he is available in the 2nd round. I've heard differing reviews on his accuracy which would be my biggest concern with any QB in this system. Some say his accuracy stinks, some say yours would to if you had his O-Line but that he still played decent considering them. If his accuracy is good I would try to get my hands on him. Either way the Bengals will need to acquire a QB (or 2) if Palmer does indeed take his ball and go home.
That's all true but we also know Mike Brown's complete and utter disdain for trading/surrendering draft picks, particularly the high ones that the Eagles say will be required for them to part with Kolb. I know starting your demands high is part of the bargaining process, but even so, I think there's enough teams that need a QB and have an interest in Kolb that it will prevent a team from acquiring him for anything other than a fairly substantial package. I don't see Mike Brown ponying up the draft picks for that (or giving in to Carson's trade demand - out of his natural principle, if nothing else).

Redsfaithful
02-10-2011, 06:53 PM
I actually think LeFevour is intriguing. Put him in an offensive situation where the QB is a game manager and draft Bowers or Fairley and have a monster D-line, tag Joseph, resign Ced, and I think that team maybe could compete.

LeFevour was only the second QB in NCAA history to throw for 3000+ yards and rush for 1000+ in the same season (Vince Young was first). He's had time to sit and learn. Why not? I'd much rather see the Bengals focus on having a shutdown defense for once in their franchise history.

I saw the Orton rumor also. I'd definitely do a third plus Carson for him if they were receptive. I think if the Bengals draft defense early they just need someone at QB who won't make a ton of mistakes.

Slyder
02-10-2011, 11:19 PM
I actually think LeFevour is intriguing. Put him in an offensive situation where the QB is a game manager and draft Bowers or Fairley and have a monster D-line, tag Joseph, resign Ced, and I think that team maybe could compete.

LeFevour was only the second QB in NCAA history to throw for 3000+ yards and rush for 1000+ in the same season (Vince Young was first). He's had time to sit and learn. Why not? I'd much rather see the Bengals focus on having a shutdown defense for once in their franchise history.

I saw the Orton rumor also. I'd definitely do a third plus Carson for him if they were receptive. I think if the Bengals draft defense early they just need someone at QB who won't make a ton of mistakes.

For Kyle Orton? Really? I'd rather roll the dice with this years Triple O award winner Cam Newton with the 4th pick. At least with Newton you can have a couple years of "hope".

BTW My triple O Award goes to the guy in a draft I think is going to be....
Overhyped
Overrated
Overpaid

Previous Award Recipiants: JaWalrus Russell (07), Vernon Gholston (08), Tyson Jackson (09 Smith and Bey barely lost out), 2010 I really didnt see anyone who screamed Triple O but if I had to say probably Tebow or maybe Anthony Davis but...

Redsfaithful
02-11-2011, 05:46 AM
Yeah, I think if they take a d-lineman with the fourth overall pick that position group could be something special. I'd rather have Bowers or Fairley, Orton, and no third rounder than Cam Newton.

I think the Bengals will probably take Newton though.

Sea Ray
02-12-2011, 12:43 PM
I saw the Orton rumor also. I'd definitely do a third plus Carson for him if they were receptive. I think if the Bengals draft defense early they just need someone at QB who won't make a ton of mistakes.

That's just nuts. First of all, I don't trade Carson for anything less than a first rd pick. If no one wants to give us that then he sits. No way is Kyle Orton worth a #1 and a 3. Secondly Denver is not a match for CP. If Denver trades Orton, then they're going with Tim Tebow.

Sea Ray
02-12-2011, 12:47 PM
If we lose Carson we almost have to take a QB at #4

The way things are going, no rookie QB will be of much help to an NFL team in 2011. With a lockout there will be no minicamp, no contract and no coaching. Even under the best of scenarios, Cam Newton will need years to learn QB in the NFL. Plus there's no QB worthy of a #4 pick this year

Cuban_Missile
02-12-2011, 02:32 PM
The way things are going, no rookie QB will be of much help to an NFL team in 2011. With a lockout there will be no minicamp, no contract and no coaching. Even under the best of scenarios, Cam Newton will need years to learn QB in the NFL. Plus there's no QB worthy of a #4 pick this year

Cam Newton is worth the #4 pick after what he did in California this week. But you're right with a short season due to the possible lockout we have to look at Lefevour being a decent option.

Mario-Rijo
02-12-2011, 04:27 PM
That's all true but we also know Mike Brown's complete and utter disdain for trading/surrendering draft picks, particularly the high ones that the Eagles say will be required for them to part with Kolb. I know starting your demands high is part of the bargaining process, but even so, I think there's enough teams that need a QB and have an interest in Kolb that it will prevent a team from acquiring him for anything other than a fairly substantial package. I don't see Mike Brown ponying up the draft picks for that (or giving in to Carson's trade demand - out of his natural principle, if nothing else).

I agree with you but it's about time Mike Brown starts putting the good of the team ahead of his principle. This is how you start to win back fans, move on from Palmer he doesn't want to play here and trading him gives us something to help further what we are working with now.

I deal him to Seattle for their 1st (pitting them against their division mates Ari & S.F.) and Charlie Whitehurst. I'd kick in a 5th or 6th rounder. Short of Kolb or Orton I like this idea the best. I then draft Locker with Seattles pick if still available, if not I go Pouncey there (to play LG now and C later), sign another guy to compete with Whitehurst and see what happens this year before making an attempt at drafting a QB next year.

Mario-Rijo
02-12-2011, 04:32 PM
For Kyle Orton? Really? I'd rather roll the dice with this years Triple O award winner Cam Newton with the 4th pick. At least with Newton you can have a couple years of "hope".

BTW My triple O Award goes to the guy in a draft I think is going to be....
Overhyped
Overrated
Overpaid

Previous Award Recipiants: JaWalrus Russell (07), Vernon Gholston (08), Tyson Jackson (09 Smith and Bey barely lost out), 2010 I really didnt see anyone who screamed Triple O but if I had to say probably Tebow or maybe Anthony Davis but...

Orton did pretty doggone well in a west coast offense this year, certainly has to be better than a guy like LeFevour who is an average arm at best. And I would much rather have Gabbert than Newton but I would roll the dice and try to do something with Locker later. I read Scouts Inc. every year and every year they have some very good scouting reports on these guys and they don't have alot bad to say about Lockers game, just the crap supporting cast he had around him.

MWM
02-12-2011, 07:33 PM
I've wanted to divorce the Bengals for years now, but just can't do it. I didn't think it was possible and have accepted that for better or worse, I am a fan for life. If they draft Cam Newton, I think that will be what allows a full split it to happen. I can't imagine having any desire to root for a team he plays for, regardless of how long I've been a fan.

savafan
02-12-2011, 07:36 PM
Knowing Mike Brown, I can't help but imagine the Bengals with Jamarcus Russell at QB

KoryMac5
02-13-2011, 12:02 AM
Mike Brown will not trade Palmer, nothing I have heard out there makes me change my mind on that. Brown has way too much invested in signing bonus and salary to see him walk. Plus Brown still thinks he can win with this team. As Bengals fans we know one thing for sure, Mike Brown is stubborn to a fault.

hebroncougar
02-13-2011, 04:01 PM
That's just nuts. First of all, I don't trade Carson for anything less than a first rd pick. If no one wants to give us that then he sits. No way is Kyle Orton worth a #1 and a 3. Secondly Denver is not a match for CP. If Denver trades Orton, then they're going with Tim Tebow.

Then he's sitting. You are not getting anything close to a first round pick for Palmer. If they Bengals got Orton and a third, they'd be the one's making the steal. Take a look at his stats. He knows how to take care of the ball, and he's run the WC before. But it doesn't matter, Denver's not that dumb. I hope Palmer retires. He becomes my all time favorite player if he does. He'd become the first one to stand by his word when speaking out about how ignorant the Bengals franchise is.

hebroncougar
02-13-2011, 04:03 PM
Cam Newton is worth the #4 pick after what he did in California this week. But you're right with a short season due to the possible lockout we have to look at Lefevour being a decent option.

Cam Newton will set any franchise back light years like first round bust QB's do. See Akili Smith.

Roy Tucker
02-13-2011, 04:30 PM
Mike Brown gets his jollies by crushing 1st round draft picks over money, making players stay who don't want to stay, undercutting his coach on personnel decisions, and playing hardball with the city to get a new scoreboard when the city is close to bankrupcy.

I just wish he'd put the same energy and passion into putting a winning team on the field as he does showing how hardnails he is as a businessman.

Sea Ray
02-14-2011, 02:50 PM
Then he's sitting. You are not getting anything close to a first round pick for Palmer. If they Bengals got Orton and a third, they'd be the one's making the steal. Take a look at his stats. He knows how to take care of the ball, and he's run the WC before. But it doesn't matter, Denver's not that dumb. I hope Palmer retires. He becomes my all time favorite player if he does. He'd become the first one to stand by his word when speaking out about how ignorant the Bengals franchise is.

Now you're changing the formula. The question being discussed is the Bengals giving up Carson and a third rd pick for Orton:


I'd definitely do a third plus Carson for him if they were receptive.

Mario-Rijo
02-14-2011, 05:17 PM
Then he's sitting. You are not getting anything close to a first round pick for Palmer. If they Bengals got Orton and a third, they'd be the one's making the steal. Take a look at his stats. He knows how to take care of the ball, and he's run the WC before. But it doesn't matter, Denver's not that dumb. I hope Palmer retires. He becomes my all time favorite player if he does. He'd become the first one to stand by his word when speaking out about how ignorant the Bengals franchise is.

Don't bet on it with so many teams looking for a viable one. Allegedly S.F. and Oakland have shown some degree of interest already, Arizona and Seattle also should have interest, possibly Carolina. None of those teams run a west coast offense that I am aware of so they need a big arm veteran with experience of which there are none on the open market (that won't be franchised anyway). Kolb isn't a fit on many a team so who else does that leave, McNabb potentially if he's cut but I'm guessing Palmer has a bit more cachet than he at this point.

Roy Tucker
02-14-2011, 06:29 PM
Watched Sports of All Sorts on WCPO last night. Jay Gruden was on. John Popovich did a nice job on the interview.

Gruden was not at all positive about Carson Palmer. He kept saying "we just need to have a QB that wants to be here". He really gave the impression that Palmer was toast. At least that's the impression I got.

Hoosier Red
02-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Watched Sports of All Sorts on WCPO last night. Jay Gruden was on. John Popovich did a nice job on the interview.

Gruden was not at all positive about Carson Palmer. He kept saying "we just need to have a QB that wants to be here". He really gave the impression that Palmer was toast. At least that's the impression I got.

Well a lot of that is posturing, it's what the organization has to say. I hope behind the scenes he's trying to entice Palmer, but on the other hand, the Bengals will take the field with or without Palmer this Fall so there has to be at least some stance that says "If you want to be here, great, if not, great."

Redsfaithful
02-14-2011, 09:28 PM
In his blog this morning, Paul Daugherty sounded like he was 100% positive that Palmer was never playing for the Bengals again, for whatever that's worth.

LoganBuck
02-14-2011, 11:06 PM
The best point I have heard on the whole Carson Palmer trade issue is that he will be going to the NFC West should he be traded. With the three top suitors for his services Arizona, San Francisco, and Seattle all being in the same division the odds that the Bengals could pry loose a nice package increases.

Slyder
02-15-2011, 12:43 AM
Cam Newton is worth the #4 pick after what he did in California this week. But you're right with a short season due to the possible lockout we have to look at Lefevour being a decent option.

Cam Newton will be the new winner of the 3 O award that was previously given to JaMarcus Russell.

3 O's= Overrated, Overhyped, and Overpaid.

traderumor
02-15-2011, 07:12 AM
I would imagine that CP moving on might fit in "be careful what you ask for," and he may move on and excel, but I wish him the best and hopefully we can plug and play a QB with the new guy. An NFL QB can come out of obscurity to stardom if the system is right, and so many of the "can't miss" guys end up wearing headsets for a few years and then go find another career. I'm not saying Gruden's will be, but that it is a possible scenario.

Sea Ray
02-15-2011, 10:12 AM
Well a lot of that is posturing, it's what the organization has to say. I hope behind the scenes he's trying to entice Palmer, but on the other hand, the Bengals will take the field with or without Palmer this Fall so there has to be at least some stance that says "If you want to be here, great, if not, great."

He said he hasn't even called Palmer yet. The obvious question that should have been asked next should have been: "why not? When do you plan to?"

MWM
02-15-2011, 01:52 PM
I'm a little surprised by this, if true. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that it was all about Bratkowski. It seemed obvious to me that the timing of his termination was pretty much to appease Carson. I assumed, again maybe wrongly, that Carson gave some indication that if Brat were gone he'd reconsider. That's what the tea leaves were saying to me. Apparently, Carson seems determined not to play for the Bengals any longer. Maybe it was all about Marvin and not Brat.

Benihana
02-15-2011, 04:54 PM
I'm a little surprised by this, if true. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that it was all about Bratkowski. It seemed obvious to me that the timing of his termination was pretty much to appease Carson. I assumed, again maybe wrongly, that Carson gave some indication that if Brat were gone he'd reconsider. That's what the tea leaves were saying to me. Apparently, Carson seems determined not to play for the Bengals any longer. Maybe it was all about Marvin and not Brat.

I do think it had a lot to do with Marvin (as well as Brat), but also the press conference in which Brown rehired Marvin and announced that significant changes would NOT be forthcoming.

Either way, I think he's gone. And it could potentially be both the worst (short-term) and the best (long-term) things to happen to this organization in a long time.

Mario-Rijo
02-15-2011, 05:44 PM
He said he hasn't even called Palmer yet. The obvious question that should have been asked next should have been: "why not? When do you plan to?"

He has said as much in his Bengals.com interview/press conference. Said it was time when and if Mike and Marvin think it is, he feels that is their place and if need be he is more than ready to talk to Carson. Just waiting for his cue so to speak.

Mario-Rijo
02-15-2011, 05:46 PM
Cam Newton will be the new winner of the 3 O award that was previously given to JaMarcus Russell.

3 O's= Overrated, Overhyped, and Overpaid.

Well with the new CBA at least he won't be so overpaid that it is organization stifling, or at least I hope that rookie scale is done alot like the NBA.

Redsfaithful
02-15-2011, 07:31 PM
I'm a little surprised by this, if true. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that it was all about Bratkowski. It seemed obvious to me that the timing of his termination was pretty much to appease Carson. I assumed, again maybe wrongly, that Carson gave some indication that if Brat were gone he'd reconsider. That's what the tea leaves were saying to me. Apparently, Carson seems determined not to play for the Bengals any longer. Maybe it was all about Marvin and not Brat.

I thought that too, but I think he's sick of Mike Brown and the way the organization is run.

I figure the players all think what the fans think. I don't think it's any secret that Brown is cheap and does things differently, and I'm sure they all realize that.

I read somewhere that there are some smaller things that have irritated Palmer, like Mike Brown not throwing a Christmas party for the team. Who knows, because that kind of stuff is all so second hand, but it wouldn't surprise me.

When it comes to things like that I can't decide if Brown is really that cheap or if he just doesn't know any better. He has never seen how other organizations operate, and he runs such a small staff that nobody else knows either (not talking about coaches, talking about operations).

I've also read somewhere that Palmer was rushed back from injury twice, and that Mike Brown asked him to restructure his deal last summer. It sounds like he's just fed up with the organization in general, and I don't blame him. Mike Brown wasted his prime.

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 10:15 AM
I thought that too, but I think he's sick of Mike Brown and the way the organization is run.

I figure the players all think what the fans think. I don't think it's any secret that Brown is cheap and does things differently, and I'm sure they all realize that.

I read somewhere that there are some smaller things that have irritated Palmer, like Mike Brown not throwing a Christmas party for the team. Who knows, because that kind of stuff is all so second hand, but it wouldn't surprise me.

When it comes to things like that I can't decide if Brown is really that cheap or if he just doesn't know any better. He has never seen how other organizations operate, and he runs such a small staff that nobody else knows either (not talking about coaches, talking about operations).

I've also read somewhere that Palmer was rushed back from injury twice, and that Mike Brown asked him to restructure his deal last summer. It sounds like he's just fed up with the organization in general, and I don't blame him. Mike Brown wasted his prime.

Mike Brown is a horrible owner but he's not cheap especially where Carson is concerned. In fact CP is an example of where MB overpaid

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 10:17 AM
He has said as much in his Bengals.com interview/press conference. Said it was time when and if Mike and Marvin think it is, he feels that is their place and if need be he is more than ready to talk to Carson. Just waiting for his cue so to speak.

I haven't heard him address it at all. But I take it you've heard that he's waiting for Marvin/MB to give him the OK to contact CP. All right. We'll watch this.

Cuban_Missile
02-16-2011, 12:05 PM
Mike Brown is a horrible owner but he's not cheap especially where Carson is concerned. In fact CP is an example of where MB overpaid

No sir Brown is very cheap when it comes to the players. Look how many good players he has let go over the years because he didn't want to pay them: Madieu Williams, TJ Houshmanzedah, Jon Kitna, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Eric Steinbach, Willie Anderson, and the list goes on from there. So to say that Brown isn't cheap is just un-true he just wants Carson to suffer by forcing him to stay or to retire. Which after all Carson has done for this team and this city is a very sleasy move from Brown let Carson go play somewhere they appreciate him for a couple more years and let him retire and be done with it Mike.

bucksfan2
02-16-2011, 12:21 PM
No sir Brown is very cheap when it comes to the players. Look how many good players he has let go over the years because he didn't want to pay them: Madieu Williams, TJ Houshmanzedah, Jon Kitna, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Eric Steinbach, Willie Anderson, and the list goes on from there. So to say that Brown isn't cheap is just un-true he just wants Carson to suffer by forcing him to stay or to retire. Which after all Carson has done for this team and this city is a very sleasy move from Brown let Carson go play somewhere they appreciate him for a couple more years and let him retire and be done with it Mike.

And one of those guys was worth the money handed out. Only Steinbach was worth the contract he got and the Bengals decided to pay their Tackles (Anderson and Levi) the big money contracts. What has Williams done since he left? Besides dance when he made a routine tackle. Kitna wanted to start and that wasn't going to happen with Palmer. Fitzy got a chance to compete in Buffalo. Smith was overrated his entire career as a Bengal. Spikes wanted out and Marvin severed ties. At the time he said it was the biggest mistake he made as a head coach. TJ got a huge contract from Seattle and was cut one year later. Have you watched him play the last few years? He is a TE. Willie was cut because he was done as a starting T. Would you rather pay franchise RT money to a tackle who is a backup?

I can buy the fact that Mike Brown is cheap but he has spent right at the cap limit since Marvin has been there. And to be honest with the exception of Steinbach and maybe Takeo the moves he made were good football moves.

traderumor
02-16-2011, 12:23 PM
No sir Brown is very cheap when it comes to the players. Look how many good players he has let go over the years because he didn't want to pay them: Madieu Williams, TJ Houshmanzedah, Jon Kitna, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Justin Smith, Takeo Spikes, Eric Steinbach, Willie Anderson, and the list goes on from there. So to say that Brown isn't cheap is just un-true he just wants Carson to suffer by forcing him to stay or to retire. Which after all Carson has done for this team and this city is a very sleasy move from Brown let Carson go play somewhere they appreciate him for a couple more years and let him retire and be done with it Mike.
That is a list of players that I say "good call" on not giving them a lot of money. Willie Anderson was paid, he just didn't give him his last hurrah/loyalty contract. The rest of the list is a who's who of good calls. I would be surprised if anyone can provide evidence that their production met or exceeded their ensuing contracts after the Bengals let them walk.

And I see bucks2 beat me to the punch, with facts.

Cuban_Missile
02-16-2011, 12:31 PM
And one of those guys was worth the money handed out. Only Steinbach was worth the contract he got and the Bengals decided to pay their Tackles (Anderson and Levi) the big money contracts. What has Williams done since he left? Besides dance when he made a routine tackle. Kitna wanted to start and that wasn't going to happen with Palmer. Fitzy got a chance to compete in Buffalo. Smith was overrated his entire career as a Bengal. Spikes wanted out and Marvin severed ties. At the time he said it was the biggest mistake he made as a head coach. TJ got a huge contract from Seattle and was cut one year later. Have you watched him play the last few years? He is a TE. Willie was cut because he was done as a starting T. Would you rather pay franchise RT money to a tackle who is a backup?

I can buy the fact that Mike Brown is cheap but he has spent right at the cap limit since Marvin has been there. And to be honest with the exception of Steinbach and maybe Takeo the moves he made were good football moves.

TJ fit well with what we had here there for he would have produced here for more years IMO. Willie would have lasted another couple years like he did in Baltimore and has told me personally that he wanted to retire a Bengal (which is why I am biased about that one). Smith was overrated here I will throw him out as well as Kitna and Fitz for wanting to play. But Spikes only wanted out because he wasn't being paid what he knew he could make elsewhere. And Williams would have been a good leader to keep around and someone who was healthy to play when literally almost everyone else was hurt at some point during the season. I am just saying he would have been a guy to keep around for what he wanted.

Cuban_Missile
02-16-2011, 12:33 PM
That is a list of players that I say "good call" on not giving them a lot of money. Willie Anderson was paid, he just didn't give him his last hurrah/loyalty contract. The rest of the list is a who's who of good calls. I would be surprised if anyone can provide evidence that their production met or exceeded their ensuing contracts after the Bengals let them walk.

And I see bucks2 beat me to the punch, with facts.

They may have been a "good call". But a lot of them did well with our system and who knows what would have happened if we kept them in the same system. It takes time to work as a team and get guys set some of these guys were really finding their nitch here and if Brown wasn't cheap about everything things could be different.

bucksfan2
02-16-2011, 12:49 PM
TJ fit well with what we had here there for he would have produced here for more years IMO. Willie would have lasted another couple years like he did in Baltimore and has told me personally that he wanted to retire a Bengal (which is why I am biased about that one). Smith was overrated here I will throw him out as well as Kitna and Fitz for wanting to play. But Spikes only wanted out because he wasn't being paid what he knew he could make elsewhere. And Williams would have been a good leader to keep around and someone who was healthy to play when literally almost everyone else was hurt at some point during the season. I am just saying he would have been a guy to keep around for what he wanted.

TJ was done as a WR. You saw it last year in Seattle and this season in Baltimore. He is a glorified TE now and would have been given a multi year deal making quite a bit of cash. And besides they made the playoffs the year after TJ left and it looks like they have a better replacement for TJ in Shipply who is quite a bit cheaper and more productive.

Willie was in the twilight of his career but being paid like a franchise LT. I don't really know of any club who would have been content paying Willie that for the production he was giving. In the NFL that is the benefit of non-guaranteed contracts. But to call Mike cheap on Willie is wrong. Willie got paid during his tenure as a Bengal.

Madieu is the great Bengal hype story. Had a good freshman season with the Bengals, hurt his shoulder early on during his second season and never regained form. It was smart not to sign him because he wasn't the physical player he once was. He could have brought leadership but IMO that is over rated. And its tough to be a leader when you aren't successful on the field.

Takeo wanted out of Cincy because of the losing. When Marvin came in he did some house cleaning. When most new coaches come in for a turn around program they clean house of everyone who doesn't want to be there. It would been nice to have Takeo as a Bengal but obviously he didn't want to be here. It had nothing to do with being paid, more to do with losing. Which is ironic because he finished up his career in Buffalo and San Fran.

There isn't one team in the NFL who wants to get younger, cheaper, and more effective. Every year you see teams cut fan favorites and players who were well respected because they are too expensive, their play doesn't warrant it, and there is a cheaper and more effective player in house. The Jets did it this season with Thomas Jones and Faneca. The Pats have done it for years in getting rid of guys like Branch, Brown, Vrabel, and Seymour off the top of my head.

If you want to say Mike Brown is cheap with the way he runs the organization thats fine with me. If you want to say Mike doesn't nearly as much about football as he thinks he does thats also fine with me. He is cheap, he takes short cuts, he tries to get by in the front office for less. But to say that he is cheap with the contracts he hands out I just don't buy that.

RiverRat13
02-16-2011, 12:53 PM
Takeo Spikes was gone no matter what contract he was offered by the Bengals and he stated as such numerous times. And the Bengals offered T.J. a contract that was almost as big as the one he got in Seattle. Being cheap had nothing to do with the Bengals losing either guy. But being a perpetual loser did.

Yachtzee
02-16-2011, 01:01 PM
TJ fit well with what we had here there for he would have produced here for more years IMO. Willie would have lasted another couple years like he did in Baltimore and has told me personally that he wanted to retire a Bengal (which is why I am biased about that one). Smith was overrated here I will throw him out as well as Kitna and Fitz for wanting to play. But Spikes only wanted out because he wasn't being paid what he knew he could make elsewhere. And Williams would have been a good leader to keep around and someone who was healthy to play when literally almost everyone else was hurt at some point during the season. I am just saying he would have been a guy to keep around for what he wanted.

I would have been fine with Willie retiring as a Bengal, but not if it meant taking up a sizable chunk of the salary cap that could be used on bringing in the next generation of players. Good teams don't give out big contracts as a "thank you for your service" deal. Good teams unload big salary players as soon as their production level drops off.

As far as Spikes is concerned, I seem to recall him saying he didn't want anything to do with the Bengals when Marvin was brought it. I recall him saying something in the media that he didn't think Marvin should bother trying to talk to him because he wanted out and there wasn't anything that could be said that would make him want to stay. Couple that with him saying that leaving Cincinnati was like "getting his slave papers" and I say good riddance. One of Marvin Lewis' first goals as head coach was to change the "me first" attitude held by many of the Bengals' players when he first came in and Spikes wanted no part of it. He wanted pro bowl selections and other accolades he thought he deserved but didn't get because he was a Bengal.

I think there was more going on with TJ than just paying him money. For one thing, I think he wanted to be the #1 guy. I also think that there may have been some attitude problems behind the scenes that lead Marvin and Mike Brown to believe letting him go was better than keeping him. I've heard that TJ was a bit of an instigator of locker room strife when he was here.

I agree with those that say that, other than Steinbach, who they should have kept over Levi Jones, everyone on your list was better off being let go when they were. Mike Brown usually spends right up to the salary cap and is very loyal about paying his players and signing contract extensions when warranted. His whole philosophy is about paying his own guys first before going out and spending money on free agents.

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 01:07 PM
TJ fit well with what we had here there for he would have produced here for more years IMO. Willie would have lasted another couple years like he did in Baltimore and has told me personally that he wanted to retire a Bengal (which is why I am biased about that one).

When you state that Willie Anderson played a couple years in Baltimore you hurt your credibility. Makes me think you didn't talk to him either. The Ravens signed him to a three contract in Sept of 2008 of which he played less than a year. He retired 8 months later.

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 01:10 PM
I agree with those that say that, other than Steinbach, who they should have kept over Levi Jones, everyone on your list was better off being let go when they were. Mike Brown usually spends right up to the salary cap and is very loyal about paying his players and signing contract extensions when warranted. His whole philosophy is about paying his own guys first before going out and spending money on free agents.

Steinbach was not a money issue but a judgement issue as you correctly state. It wasn't because the Bengals were cheap. A cheap owner would not have given Levi Jones all that money.

Mike Brown's issues have to do with control, not frugality

bucksfan2
02-16-2011, 01:25 PM
Steinbach was not a money issue but a judgement issue as you correctly state. It wasn't because the Bengals were cheap. A cheap owner would not have given Levi Jones all that money.

Mike Brown's issues have to do with control, not frugality

I thought it was Willie who got the contract instead of Steinbach?

It was a judgment issue but a little more complicated that meets the eye. Steinbach was one of the better guards's in the league. Not in Huttchinson territory but very good. He may have been one of the most athletic guards in the league at the time. However, in the NFL guards are considered second class citizens to the tackles. Teams invest big time money in tackles and don't to guards. Its almost thought that if you can't play tackle they will move you to guard. IMO thats whats being debated about Big Andre right now. But to complicate matters if you franchise a guard he is franchised as an offensive lineman and paid the average of the top 5 OL in the league. So take the top 5 offensive tackles, average it out, and that is what Steinbach would have been paid to play guard for the Bengals.

The logic itself is sound, invest in your tackles and move inward. And you especially don't want to pay a guard tackle money. The disputed point was the age difference and it came back to bit them in the rear.

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 01:35 PM
I thought it was Willie who got the contract instead of Steinbach?

It was a judgment issue but a little more complicated that meets the eye. Steinbach was one of the better guards's in the league. Not in Huttchinson territory but very good. He may have been one of the most athletic guards in the league at the time. However, in the NFL guards are considered second class citizens to the tackles. Teams invest big time money in tackles and don't to guards. Its almost thought that if you can't play tackle they will move you to guard. IMO thats whats being debated about Big Andre right now. But to complicate matters if you franchise a guard he is franchised as an offensive lineman and paid the average of the top 5 OL in the league. So take the top 5 offensive tackles, average it out, and that is what Steinbach would have been paid to play guard for the Bengals.

The logic itself is sound, invest in your tackles and move inward. And you especially don't want to pay a guard tackle money. The disputed point was the age difference and it came back to bit them in the rear.

Actually the Bengals signed both Levi and Big Willie to big contracts prior to the 2006 season. Steinbach left prior to the 2007 season so I guess it was clear that the Bengals valued both their OTs more than Gs

Cuban_Missile
02-16-2011, 02:52 PM
When you state that Willie Anderson played a couple years in Baltimore you hurt your credibility. Makes me think you didn't talk to him either. The Ravens signed him to a three contract in Sept of 2008 of which he played less than a year. He retired 8 months later.

I said he WOULD have lasted a couple more years here. I do understand it was confusing the way I typed it. But he wasn't happy in Baltimore by any means which is why he hung it it up. But if you would like proof I will pull out the pictures of me working with Willie at Fatburger before it closed during a charity event last year.

bucksfan2
02-16-2011, 03:31 PM
I said he WOULD have lasted a couple more years here. I do understand it was confusing the way I typed it. But he wasn't happy in Baltimore by any means which is why he hung it it up. But if you would like proof I will pull out the pictures of me working with Willie at Fatburger before it closed during a charity event last year.

Willie wasn't any good then. He was a backup tackle who was on the downside of his career. I am sure if he was starting and playing at the level he was used too he would have been fine.

MWM
02-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Mike Brown isn't cheap because of what he pays his top players, or by not being willing to keep certain players. He's cheap when it comes to players because he's not willing to pay for enough good players. He thinks he can pay top dollar to a small handful of players and then litter his roster with a bunch of guys who are barely good enough to be in the NFL. His cheapness yields its ugly head in the total absence of depth throughout his entire tenure.

Sea Ray
02-16-2011, 04:19 PM
I said he WOULD have lasted a couple more years here. I do understand it was confusing the way I typed it. But he wasn't happy in Baltimore by any means which is why he hung it it up. But if you would like proof I will pull out the pictures of me working with Willie at Fatburger before it closed during a charity event last year.

If he was still able to play the Bengals would have gladly re-signed him after that year in Baltimore. It's not like we had a decent RT

Did he ever open a Fatburger in Cincinnati? I heard they were going to and then I never heard anything again

Redsfaithful
02-16-2011, 05:19 PM
Justin Smith made the Pro Bowl last year. Kitna would have been a solid backup to keep around, and I'm sure he would have stayed if Brown would have paid him enough.

Willie Anderson should have retired a Bengal, and he should be in the Bengals Hall of Fame with his number retired. Except wait, Mike Brown doesn't do those things. Probably because they'd cost money. Instead Andre Smith is wearing 71.

TJ would have continued producing with the Bengals, and would have been a lot cheaper than Bryant + TO + Coles. Anyone who thinks Mike Brown is a good businessman should just look at the #2 WR position the past two years to see differently.

Brown did pay Carson fairly, because he seems to think the QB is all that really matters with a team, but he's cheaped out elsewhere (on talent, on a practice bubble, probably other things we are not privy to).

Yachtzee
02-16-2011, 05:19 PM
Mike Brown isn't cheap because of what he pays his top players, or by not being willing to keep certain players. He's cheap when it comes to players because he's not willing to pay for enough good players. He thinks he can pay top dollar to a small handful of players and then litter his roster with a bunch of guys who are barely good enough to be in the NFL. His cheapness yields its ugly head in the total absence of depth throughout his entire tenure.

I don't think that's true. He's been willing to give out good contracts to guys like Shane Graham. Again, he spends to the cap. His problem is that he spends all the cap space renewing players already on the team and ends up not having enough compete for top free agents. Every free agency period, it seems he always talks about making sure the Bengals sign their own guys first.

Redsfaithful
02-16-2011, 05:28 PM
I don't think that's true that Mike Brown spends to the salary cap always. They were 28th in salary in 2009, the last year with a cap.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/cincinnati-bengals/salary/67041

Yachtzee
02-16-2011, 05:30 PM
I thought it was Willie who got the contract instead of Steinbach?

It was a judgment issue but a little more complicated that meets the eye. Steinbach was one of the better guards's in the league. Not in Huttchinson territory but very good. He may have been one of the most athletic guards in the league at the time. However, in the NFL guards are considered second class citizens to the tackles. Teams invest big time money in tackles and don't to guards. Its almost thought that if you can't play tackle they will move you to guard. IMO thats whats being debated about Big Andre right now. But to complicate matters if you franchise a guard he is franchised as an offensive lineman and paid the average of the top 5 OL in the league. So take the top 5 offensive tackles, average it out, and that is what Steinbach would have been paid to play guard for the Bengals.

The logic itself is sound, invest in your tackles and move inward. And you especially don't want to pay a guard tackle money. The disputed point was the age difference and it came back to bit them in the rear.

I understand that part of it, and at the time I thought it was a good idea, but I'm not running a football team and in hindsight, it was a terrible move. As it turned out, Steinbach was a critical member of the OL, not just because he's one of the better pulling guards in the league, but because he was versatile enough that he could fill in at other spots on the line when someone went down and the Bengals didn't lose that much effectiveness. When they lost him, the performance of the OL went down significantly. Then Willie got old fast and Levi ended up a bust. The OL went from a strength to a weakness in short order. As "football people," Lewis and Brown were in a position to know, and should have known, the importance of Steinbach to the performance of the OL and tried to keep him and let Jones go, if that's the choice they had to make. Of course Brown could have also just stopped signing Chad Johnson to extensions and used that money on the line too.

Yachtzee
02-16-2011, 05:41 PM
I don't think that's true that Mike Brown spends to the salary cap always. They were 28th in salary in 2009, the last year with a cap.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/cincinnati-bengals/salary/67041

That looks like it's just payroll. Is there any indication whether that includes signing bonuses? Signing bonuses also count against the cap, and IIRC, Brown had shelled out a sizable chunk of money in signing bonuses in that year and the years prior reupping Palmer, Chad Johnson, and a few other players. And of course, when it comes to counting money toward the cap, Mike Brown prefers to count his money against the cap now rather than use accounting tricks and fake contract years to push bonus money against future years. Another of his mantras is, "Do not mortgage the future for today's team." He prefers to pay out his salary and count his signing bonuses against the cap now because he feels it's irresponsible to push the cap hit out to the future and then end up in salary cap hell like other teams have done.

Again, I think his problem, at least where players are concerned, is that he just doesn't make the right calls on who to keep, who to bring in and who to let go rather than spending or not spending to the cap.

Hoosier Red
02-16-2011, 05:58 PM
TJ fit well with what we had here there for he would have produced here for more years IMO. Willie would have lasted another couple years like he did in Baltimore and has told me personally that he wanted to retire a Bengal (which is why I am biased about that one). Smith was overrated here I will throw him out as well as Kitna and Fitz for wanting to play. But Spikes only wanted out because he wasn't being paid what he knew he could make elsewhere. And Williams would have been a good leader to keep around and someone who was healthy to play when literally almost everyone else was hurt at some point during the season. I am just saying he would have been a guy to keep around for what he wanted.
Regardless of it was the correct move or not, there's a difference between being cheap and misallocating the money.

I'm not sure Mike Brown would have paid them the money other teams were willing to, but he had no choice because he was spending at or near the salary cap, and those players were getting better offers elsewhere. He spent the money, he just happened to spend it on different players.

Cuban_Missile
02-16-2011, 06:51 PM
If he was still able to play the Bengals would have gladly re-signed him after that year in Baltimore. It's not like we had a decent RT

Did he ever open a Fatburger in Cincinnati? I heard they were going to and then I never heard anything again

That is where the charity event was, was at the Fatburger in Cincinnati. However due to its location it was not very profitable and Willie closed it pretty much after the charity event last year. He still owns two in Atlanta however.

SeeinRed
02-16-2011, 11:42 PM
That is where the charity event was, was at the Fatburger in Cincinnati. However due to its location it was not very profitable and Willie closed it pretty much after the charity event last year. He still owns two in Atlanta however.

Not to get off topic, but I wasn't a huge fan of Fatburger. I was rather disappointed. As far as location goes, I'm not sure it was in such a bad spot really. Everyone I talked to about it was just underwhelmed with the food. Willie is a good guy and I wanted to see the resturaunt last for him though.

Playadlc
02-17-2011, 12:31 AM
Just my opinion here, but Carson is gone. I don't think there is anything the Bengals can do now to get him on board.

I don't even know if I would want Carson to come back. His heart clearly isn't in it anymore.

Let the Kyle Orton era begin! :eek:

CTA513
02-17-2011, 12:51 AM
Just my opinion here, but Carson is gone. I don't think there is anything the Bengals can do now to get him on board.

I don't even know if I would want Carson to come back. His heart clearly isn't in it anymore.

Let the Kyle Orton era begin! :eek:

Thats what happens when you play for the Bengals.

Redsfaithful
02-17-2011, 01:44 AM
That looks like it's just payroll. Is there any indication whether that includes signing bonuses? Signing bonuses also count against the cap, and IIRC, Brown had shelled out a sizable chunk of money in signing bonuses in that year and the years prior reupping Palmer, Chad Johnson, and a few other players.

That's true, my mistake.

Sean_CaseyRules
03-02-2011, 04:09 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6172018

Bengals aren't my favorite team, but sucks to see an owner completely run someone out of town.

LoganBuck
03-02-2011, 08:05 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6172018

Bengals aren't my favorite team, but sucks to see an owner completely run someone out of town.

Carson can take his ball and go home. I don't care. Carson is not blameless. People say the offensive line wasn't good, but Carson has been one of the least sacked QB's over the last five years, playing the Ravens and Steelers twice a year. It wasn't his elusive speed, or his precision quick release. People can say he didn't have receivers, but he had multiple pro bowlers. People can say he had diva receivers that he couldn't deal with, other QBs play with hothead receivers and have success. Carson is payed to be a franchise QB, franchise QBs tell their subordinates how it is going to be. I have had enough of his passive aggressive behavior he can't even leave town like a man, either state your case publically, or go away quietly with a statement. Don't let your minions leak your words.

Eric_the_Red
03-02-2011, 08:06 AM
Palmer, who has demanded the Bengals trade him, told a confidant he "will never set foot in Paul Brown Stadium again," WCPO-TV in Cincinnati reported Tuesday.

The Bengals should trade him to the Browns. Then he'd have to sit out every time they play at PBS.

traderumor
03-02-2011, 09:08 AM
Palmer does have a lot of money in the bank--for one elite season. That all crumbled in a Kimo minute. That's the game, let him go somewhere else, best wishes, and find a QB that fits Gruden's system.

Typical prima donna USC sissy ;) Does anything good come of out USC?

Roy Tucker
03-02-2011, 09:28 AM
Nice to see this is all going so well and being handled like adults.

:rolleyes:

Chip R
03-02-2011, 11:29 AM
Typical prima donna USC sissy ;) Does anything good come of out USC?

http://sait.usc.edu/recsports/spirit/song/home.html (http://sait.usc.edu/recsports/spirit/song/home.html)

Redsfan320
03-02-2011, 11:52 AM
http://sait.usc.edu/recsports/spirit/song/home.html

LOL. Nice. There is at least something good.

320

Razor Shines
03-02-2011, 11:59 AM
Carson can take his ball and go home. I don't care. Carson is not blameless. People say the offensive line wasn't good, but Carson has been one of the least sacked QB's over the last five years, playing the Ravens and Steelers twice a year. It wasn't his elusive speed, or his precision quick release. People can say he didn't have receivers, but he had multiple pro bowlers. People can say he had diva receivers that he couldn't deal with, other QBs play with hothead receivers and have success. Carson is payed to be a franchise QB, franchise QBs tell their subordinates how it is going to be. I have had enough of his passive aggressive behavior he can't even leave town like a man, either state your case publically, or go away quietly with a statement. Don't let your minions leak your words.

Least sacked doesn't mean much to me. I honestly think that Carson still has Pro Bowl football in him in the right situation.

bucksfan2
03-02-2011, 02:50 PM
Least sacked doesn't mean much to me. I honestly think that Carson still has Pro Bowl football in him in the right situation.

Problem with saying "Pro Bowl" seasons is that sometimes average QB's make it to the Pro Bowl. I still think he can be Matt Cassel good, but don't think he can be top 5-10 good. The problem with Carson is he just isn't good enough anymore. He isn't good enough to put a team on his back and carry them. He isn't good enough to warrant the contract that he deserves. Heck the Bengals could have been 4-12 or whatever they finished with JT O'Sullivan at the helm.

There were too many times last season in which Carson threw bad interceptions, pick 6's, or floated a ball high and over the middle. A lot of his badness was lost in the fact that Chad and TO took the bulk of the blame. He still warrants a starting job in the NFL but I don't think he is a difference maker anymore. He is what Kitna became late in his career.

CTA513
03-02-2011, 03:35 PM
Hard to tell what info is true and what info is false, but the one thing we do know is that Palmer hasn't said a word publicly about this situation.

Newport Red
03-02-2011, 04:29 PM
The Bengals should trade him to the Browns. Then he'd have to sit out every time they play at PBS.

Kimo couldn't keep him from playing that game.

Eric_the_Red
03-02-2011, 04:56 PM
Kimo couldn't keep him from playing that game.

Hard to play without stepping foot inside the stadium.

Playadlc
03-03-2011, 01:19 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6172018

Bengals aren't my favorite team, but sucks to see an owner completely run someone out of town.

How so? By paying him over 100 million dollars?

I actually think this is one of the few things Mike Brown does right. Carson signed a contract to play here for four more years. Either honor your contract, or retire. Mike Brown will not budge, and I actually respect that.

If Carson does end up retiring, I will not miss him at all.

CTA513
03-03-2011, 02:09 AM
How so? By paying him over 100 million dollars?

I actually think this is one of the few things Mike Brown does right. Carson signed a contract to play here for four more years. Either honor your contract, or retire. Mike Brown will not budge, and I actually respect that.

If Carson does end up retiring, I will not miss him at all.

Fans might be happy Carson is gone, but then they will realize Brown is still here.

kaldaniels
03-03-2011, 02:27 AM
How so? By paying him over 100 million dollars?

I actually think this is one of the few things Mike Brown does right. Carson signed a contract to play here for four more years. Either honor your contract, or retire. Mike Brown will not budge, and I actually respect that.

If Carson does end up retiring, I will not miss him at all.

I'm a huge "honor your contract" guy, but realize the NFL plays by different rules...non-guarenteed contracts. When owners pay out 100 percent of contracts signed, then I may see things your way.

Playadlc
03-03-2011, 04:56 AM
Well, considering there is essentially a 0% chance Carson will ever suit up for the Cincinnati Bengals again....

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0301/nfl_camnewton_bengals1_576.jpg


Get ready for it. It might happen.

Redhook
03-03-2011, 09:06 AM
Once again, I applaud Carson Palmer for doing this. I absolutely love it! He's shining the national spotlight on the problem, Mike Brown. During Mike Brown's abysmal 20-year tenure, Carson is the only player that could possibly irritate Mike Brown by doing something like this. No one else has had Carson's power. I'm very thankful for Carson.

bucksfan2
03-03-2011, 09:29 AM
Once again, I applaud Carson Palmer for doing this. I absolutely love it! He's shining the national spotlight on the problem, Mike Brown. During Mike Brown's abysmal 20-year tenure, Carson is the only player that could possibly irritate Mike Brown by doing something like this. No one else has had Carson's power. I'm very thankful for Carson.

Actually I think Carson is 100% in the wrong on this hand. And maybe because Mike Brown is an old fashioned kind of guy does Carson have leverage. But the way Carson is going about demanding trade is immature and idiotic. If he would have went to Mike Brown first instead of playing this out in the media it would have been much better for Carson. Especially when his Realtor is making comments about it. He is playing this out as bad, or worse, than Chad Johnson. I never would have expected that our of Carson.

FWIW Boomer Esisan got the trade he wanted by going about it the right way. At the time Boomer was still a good QB, produced a Super Bowl team with the Bengals, multiple playoff years, and a league MVP. IMO he had much more leverage with Mike Brown than Carson would ever have.

Sea Ray
03-03-2011, 10:29 AM
Actually I think Carson is 100% in the wrong on this hand. And maybe because Mike Brown is an old fashioned kind of guy does Carson have leverage. But the way Carson is going about demanding trade is immature and idiotic. If he would have went to Mike Brown first instead of playing this out in the media it would have been much better for Carson. Especially when his Realtor is making comments about it. He is playing this out as bad, or worse, than Chad Johnson. I never would have expected that our of Carson.

FWIW Boomer Esisan got the trade he wanted by going about it the right way. At the time Boomer was still a good QB, produced a Super Bowl team with the Bengals, multiple playoff years, and a league MVP. IMO he had much more leverage with Mike Brown than Carson would ever have.

All indications are that he did go to MB first. In fact it appears he told MB he wanted out immediately after the last game:


— Bengals president Mike Brown said on Monday that Carson Palmer met with him a little over a week ago and asked for a trade. Brown also said that he told Palmer that it would not be something that the team would consider doing at this time.http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2011/01/24/mike-brown-on-palmer-we-arent-looking-for-offers/

bucksfan2
03-03-2011, 10:36 AM
— Bengals president Mike Brown said on Monday that Carson Palmer met with him a little over a week ago and asked for a trade. Brown also said that he told Palmer that it would not be something that the team would consider doing at this time.

There is some validity to what Mike Brown said. He really couldn't trade Palmer at the time. He couldn't really trade Palmer until a new CBA was enacted.

Sea Ray
03-03-2011, 10:37 AM
There is some validity to what Mike Brown said. He really couldn't trade Palmer at the time. He couldn't really trade Palmer until a new CBA was enacted.

No question but my point remains:

Carson did go to MB long before going public

Hoosier Red
03-03-2011, 11:00 AM
I'm a huge "honor your contract" guy, but realize the NFL plays by different rules...non-guarenteed contracts. When owners pay out 100 percent of contracts signed, then I may see things your way.

To be fair, that's also not Brown's M.O. either usually. He tends to pay guys through their contracts, or is at least less mercenary than other owners.

bucksfan2
03-04-2011, 12:59 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14766097/when-going-gets-tough-palmer-takes-his-ball-and-goes-home

I am not a huge Doyal fan. More often than not I think he serves as a "shock" journalists who is more interested in creating a stir than journalism. However I think he was spot on in this article. There really isn't much I disagree with in the article. For example:

Mike Brown
By telling the Bengals he'll retire before playing another game in their uniform, he has done something I didn't think possible: He has made me root for Mike Brown, one of the silliest owners in sports. Brown isn't a bad guy, just a cheap one. And he's not a soft guy, just a naïve one. Brown welcomes problem players from other teams, possibly because he believes in second chances, but also because it's the only way he can get that kind of talent onto his roster.

Carson Palmer
Again, don't compare Palmer to men like Brown and Sanders, Walker and Smith. Palmer isn't retiring from football so much as he's giving up on the Bengals. There's a difference, and it's not subtle. It's not semantics. Palmer was the Bengals' quarterback, their leader -- he had the power to reign in the malcontents in his huddle, idiots like Ochocinco and T.J. Houshmandzadeh and Owens -- but he passed the buck. Palmer pretended he was just one cog in the machine instead of acknowledging that his position and salary made him as powerful as anyone in the building, including coach Marvin Lewis.

PickOff
03-04-2011, 02:41 PM
From where I sit as a fan it does seem that Doyle (annoying as he is) is right about the leadership vacuum that is Carson Palmer. Not only that, but this move to me says that Carson doesn't have a "love of the game" and that he really isn't that competitive of a guy. He's a provider, he provided, now who cares. This is not a quarterback I want on my team, especially since he has never really recovered from Kimo and the arm seems less live since the elbow. Result?

Trade him. Get what you can. But the majority of the blame falls on Palmer, not Brown or Lewis. He has proved that he is not a winning quarterback in the NFL and not what the Bengals need. Sure Brown needs to hire a GM and improve scouting, etc., and Lewis is a terrible in game manager, but Palmer is not the leader a successful team needs. And I think Brown, when trading Palmer should say as much. Say that he traded him in part because he wants a leader, someone with passion for game, a football player, a quarterback, not a quitter.

Hoosier Red
03-04-2011, 03:25 PM
From where I sit as a fan it does seem that Doyle (annoying as he is) is right about the leadership vacuum that is Carson Palmer. Not only that, but this move to me says that Carson doesn't have a "love of the game" and that he really isn't that competitive of a guy. He's a provider, he provided, now who cares. This is not a quarterback I want on my team, especially since he has never really recovered from Kimo and the arm seems less live since the elbow. Result?

Trade him. Get what you can. But the majority of the blame falls on Palmer, not Brown or Lewis. He has proved that he is not a winning quarterback in the NFL and not what the Bengals need. Sure Brown needs to hire a GM and improve scouting, etc., and Lewis is a terrible in game manager, but Palmer is not the leader a successful team needs. And I think Brown, when trading Palmer should say as much. Say that he traded him in part because he wants a leader, someone with passion for game, a football player, a quarterback, not a quitter.

See I disagree with this for a couple of reasons. Carson Palmer is who he is, he's not a natural leader, true, but the money he was being paid, wasn't on the condition that he "show leadership" or "reign in troublemaking wide receivers." The condition was that he do the best job he could and quarterback the Bengals.

I have no doubt that he did that.
He may have been ineffective, inaccurate, whatever, but so long as he was giving his best effort, I don't fault him.
I fault the guy who gave him so much money to "be a leader" when Carson simply wasn't one. I fault the guy who paid Carson Palmer to be a "franchise QB" when he was closer in ability to a role player.

Teams can win with a franchise QB who is the face of the team and is the one responsible for keeping everyone else accountable and in line. They can win with a quarterback being a role player and letting someone else enforce accountability.

But a team can't win if they decide the quarterback is the franchise, and pay him as such when he simply isn't up to the job.

Hating Carson Palmer for his lack of leadership is like hating Eric Milton because he sucked. The Bengals assessed his value as $X, so long as he did what he could to live up to that, I can't fault him.

CTA513
03-04-2011, 03:28 PM
Majority of the blame should go to the guy who has been running this losing franchise for the last 20+ years.

PickOff
03-04-2011, 03:38 PM
See I disagree with this for a couple of reasons. Carson Palmer is who he is, he's not a natural leader, true, but the money he was being paid, wasn't on the condition that he "show leadership" or "reign in troublemaking wide receivers." The condition was that he do the best job he could and quarterback the Bengals.

I have no doubt that he did that.
He may have been ineffective, inaccurate, whatever, but so long as he was giving his best effort, I don't fault him.
I fault the guy who gave him so much money to "be a leader" when Carson simply wasn't one. I fault the guy who paid Carson Palmer to be a "franchise QB" when he was closer in ability to a role player.

Teams can win with a franchise QB who is the face of the team and is the one responsible for keeping everyone else accountable and in line. They can win with a quarterback being a role player and letting someone else enforce accountability.

But a team can't win if they decide the quarterback is the franchise, and pay him as such when he simply isn't up to the job.

Hating Carson Palmer for his lack of leadership is like hating Eric Milton because he sucked. The Bengals assessed his value as $X, so long as he did what he could to live up to that, I can't fault him.

A franchise quarterback has the responsibility to lead - a one year fill in or first or second year starter can be a role player. Do you think Carson said, before he signed the contract, "hey, by the way, I'm a role player not a leader, just so you know that". I don't buy it. Now, maybe he actually is a good "leader," I really don't know. But a leader, in my opinion, doesn't decide he would rather retire than play anymore. Boo hoo.

As far as blame for the team's record. That falls more on Brown and Lewis than Palmer.

IslandRed
03-04-2011, 04:43 PM
I don't know if I agree that Palmer had, as it was put, the power to reign in the malcontents. As the quarterback, he's supposed to be the leader, but being a leader means the people who are supposed to follow you either (1) want to or (2) can be made to. The QB might run the huddle but he doesn't run the team; the only true power he has over a wide receiver is the decision to throw him the football, or not. Any other power depends on his willingness to write checks with his mouth in the name of leadership that the coach and GM will cash. With the Bengals, I'm not so sure that was the case.